Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Boriscenteno
Topic Author
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:14 am

Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Why US airlines do not get a330 regional 3000 nm range to serve routes like Miami- Los Angeles Nyc- lax etc is a cheaper airplane and instead of having 4 frequencies in one day they may have only 2 and carry more pax any thoughts?
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2589
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:06 pm

Maybe the passengers prefer more frequencies. Also just because one airline might try to put all the passengers traveling on a route on one or two flights doesn't mean the passengers will go along with cutting frequencies. Competitors could just schedule competing flights before and after the wide body flight and steal passengers and revenue.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7783
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:16 pm

They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7783
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:16 pm

They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:30 pm

Ive wondered this as well, I think its profit based than anything else. You get A330s/777s used in Asia on high demand domestic routes all the time, however I think you can make more profit filling a A321 99% 8 times a day vs a A330 80% 4 times a day.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:50 pm

The US regional model is based on what can be allowed by the scope provisions of the majors and legacy carrier's pilot labor contracts. So, that’s why an A330 “US Regional” doesn’t exist.

What you need to be asking is why isn’t there a LCC or ULCC doing this kind of flying. My guess is the competition is just too fierce and the margins aren’t worth it.
 
RobertPhoenix
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:00 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.


Many passengers certainly appreciate more frequent flights but there must come a point where they are so frequent that nobody cares. I suspect that nobody would care if Southwest only had a flight every hour during the normal day for DAL to HOU. In Southwest's case they get economies by limiting the types of aircraft they have, so running 20 instead of 12 or 15 (with higher capacity) on that route costs much less than introducing a new type of aircraft.

However, there are many types of passengers. Those travelling on business will typically appreciate frequency, and those can be high yielding passengers. So it seems that BA for instance uses smaller aircraft than it has available on the LHR JFK route. However, even in those cases I suspect there are a limited number of favorite times.

Perhaps more people will choose the most economical flight so I'm slightly surprised that there aren't more airlines using bigger aircraft with lower CASM with reduced frequency on popular routes. For myself, making the flight from PHX to any airport in the DC area I really don't care what time the flight departs. I'm going to lose most of the day regardless.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 pm

Flexibility and cost. UA and DL have or have had domestic widebodies. US airlines are quite Capital conservative for domestic fleet. It is hard to justify the expense of a new widebody that may be triple the cost of a narrowbody for domestic use.
 
Delta757MD88
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:46 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:52 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Flexibility and cost. UA and DL have or have had domestic widebodies. US airlines are quite Capital conservative for domestic fleet. It is hard to justify the expense of a new widebody that may be triple the cost of a narrowbody for domestic use.



They still do as does AA. UA even has "domestic" configured 777's they fly EWR-LAX/SFO a few times a day to compliment the 752's. DL often has widebodies between JFK-LAX, ATL-LAX and other spots occasionally, UA does international configured aircraft on runs like EWR-ORD/IAH IAH has a 777 and 767 today. AA flies the 332 transcon from PHL and CLT I believe.
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:12 pm

Delta757MD88 wrote:
AA flies the 332 transcon from PHL and CLT I believe.

I don't know about PHL, but I'm not aware of any transcons AA flies from CLT on the 332. Most are A321s. About the only domestic 330 flights we see out of CLT are seasonal equipment swaps, usually something like CLT-PHL when they have an airframe available.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
afcjets
Posts: 3454
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:38 pm

Sometimes CLT-PHX and CLT-MIA in the winter.
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:58 pm

AA is flying an A330-200 on PHL-SFO currently as well.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3506
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:10 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.


Nothing to do with frequency IMO. AA decided to go the ultra-premium route on transcon. It's their business choice, nothing more.

As for WN's DAL-HOU - you can go look at a similar route in Asia, KUL-SIN. Mostly 738 on MH and MI (along with 320s for AK) nowaday. Of the 40+ flights between the two, SQ only operate 3 (all widebodies, of course). Add in a few fifth freedom (i.e. ET) here and there, it's still maybe 4-5 widebodies a day.

Back to LAX-JFK. If you look at DL, they fly plenty of 763s/764s (with some 752 mixed in) on the route. UA uses domestic 777 (along with 752s) on LAX-EWR and SFO-EWR.

As for why US airline don't bother getting A330 regional - they already got plenty of larger mid-range aircraft, namely, 767, that are fully paid for, and can fly for awhile. In addition, those 763 can fly a transcon, then fly across the pond. Not something that you can do for a A330 regional. And even over in APAC, which is A330 regional's main target market, you're seeing airlines (mainly CN3) buying way more NBs (A321 being the big one) rather than widebodies nowaday.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3454
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:39 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.


Nothing to do with frequency IMO. AA decided to go the ultra-premium route on transcon. It's their business choice, nothing more.


The higher frequency of 12-13 A321s vs. 7-8 762s allowed them to increase the yield by increasing the total number of premium cabin seats per day while decreasing Y and made the route profitable or less unprofitable.
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:40 am

This year, I've recently seen the A330 on:
AA:
LAX-PHL
SFO-PHL

DL:
LAX-JFK
LAX-ATL
SFO-JFK
SEA-JFK (occasionally)
SEA-ATL (occasionally)
 
N415XJ
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:04 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:10 am

As others have said, the US market is based on frequencies. If a 50 seat jet with the range ever gets made expect to see LAX-JFK runs with it at 30 minute intervals.
 
downdata
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:38 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:22 am

And some wonder why NY airspace is so cogested...
 
santi319
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:00 am

downdata wrote:
And some wonder why NY airspace is so cogested...

Right... first world problems, the big boys in the big companies want 24 flights a day because they need the flexibility so screw the planet... what else is new..
 
User avatar
FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:02 am

Delta has one A330-200/300 per day on JFK-LAX. In the summer it's the -200; in the winter it's the -302 (242T MTOW) because that frame is repositioned onto the LAX-HND flight.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:49 am

Wish we could get some domestic widebodies at IAD again.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
User avatar
TS-IOR
Posts: 3689
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:44 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:59 am

I only see the variant flying West Coast and South West to Hawaii.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:45 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Ive wondered this as well, I think its profit based than anything else. You get A330s/777s used in Asia on high demand domestic routes all the time, however I think you can make more profit filling a A321 99% 8 times a day vs a A330 80% 4 times a day.


Yes, don't let the dishonest airlines think they are appeasing the traveling public with more frequencies. It is nothing more than it being bean counter profit driven. At the same time, they could care less how much they clog the skies with all these narrow-bodies, which in turn adds to delays. The FAA/DOT have been way too lax in allowing airlines to pile on frequencies, in the sake of profits. It is insane how many narrow-body flights are operating trans-cons today where the skies could be much less packed with more wide-body types, with less frequencies. I doubt it will ever change though.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5277
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:47 am

crownvic wrote:
At the same time, they could care less how much they clog the skies with all these narrow-bodies, which in turn adds to delays. The FAA/DOT have been way too lax in allowing airlines to pile on frequencies, in the sake of profits.


Amen to that. And not just in the US. It is a Worldwide phenomenon.
Many major Asian airports are now congested to within minor weather events of being turned into airplane parking lots. This is all due to the relatively recent explosion of new airlines, mostly low cost whose business model is to buy narrow bodies by the thousands and just dumping capacity all over the place through myriad of frequencies.
Civial aviation and airport authorities have only been reactive to the issue, at most. Their only solution seems to build more runways if they can, or tax passengers and airlines more. Nothing is ever done to increase efficiency instead.

Delays are now a common issue at nearly all major airports in the World. Airplanes worldwide now spend thousand of hours just holding in terminal areas waiting for their turn to land. This translates into millions of dollars wasted in fuel and the associated CO2 emissions.
It is worth noting that all additional costs associated with the issue are eventually borne by the passengers.

An 320 or 737 with 150 pax in it clogs the airspace and the runway just the same as a widebody with double the headcount. Until airports and aviation authorities do not find ways of forcing operators to increase efficiency, the problem will continue to worsen.

One way to even out the playing field would be for airports to charge airlines per movement (landing/takeoff) as opposed to per weight or pax count. It would only be fair.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3454
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:43 am

crownvic wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Ive wondered this as well, I think its profit based than anything else. You get A330s/777s used in Asia on high demand domestic routes all the time, however I think you can make more profit filling a A321 99% 8 times a day vs a A330 80% 4 times a day.


Yes, don't let the dishonest airlines think they are appeasing the traveling public with more frequencies. It is nothing more than it being bean counter profit driven. At the same time, they could care less how much they clog the skies with all these narrow-bodies, which in turn adds to delays. The FAA/DOT have been way too lax in allowing airlines to pile on frequencies, in the sake of profits. It is insane how many narrow-body flights are operating trans-cons today where the skies could be much less packed with more wide-body types, with less frequencies. I doubt it will ever change though.


If that’s the case it’s not the airlines fault. Boeing and Airbus should have shorter range widebodies which achieve economies of scale instead of the opposite.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24517
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:04 am

From a yield management point of view I much rather work to fill 2 A320s a couple hours apart than a single A330 departure.

Smaller capacity plane tend to reduce pressure of discounting and are better to deal with things like day of week or seasonality swings.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:19 am

LAXintl wrote:
From a yield management point of view I much rather work to fill 2 A320s a couple hours apart than a single A330 departure.

Smaller capacity plane tend to reduce pressure of discounting and are better to deal with things like day of week or seasonality swings.


One A321 every 30 minutes or one A330 every hour. The need for frequency is completely overdrawn in these discussions. When you get to 20 flights a day, a few wide bodies do not destroy frequency. When delays count in hours, frequency is down the drain anyway.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19746
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:48 am

When is the A220 going TCON? That is what I care about. Serve routes with more frequency or just serve routes that currently require a connection. People are willing to pay more for frequency and fragmentation.

The reality is the A321NEO and A220-300 carry a passenger for less. Few US airports are really slot constrained, so it isn't worth compromising the fleet.

The US also has variable demand. On Tuesday and Wednesday, most weeks, that A330 would be flying half empty. For example, both AA and DL cut their LAX to hub flights on those days.

Short distance widebodies are for transferring passengers to a hub. US passengers would rather fly direct.

US airspace is about to get an upgrade, there will soon be no shortage of ability to move aircraft once off the ground. The few airports that need more runways & gates, should either expand or accept business goes elsewhere. The biggest issues are using regional jets to squat. But that is for another thread.

Newbiepilot wrote:
Flexibility and cost. UA and DL have or have had domestic widebodies. US airlines are quite Capital conservative for domestic fleet. It is hard to justify the expense of a new widebody that may be triple the cost of a narrowbody for domestic use.

The higher purchase price of a widebody would be difficult to pay off. Perhaps the 797?

MIflyer12 wrote:
They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.

Southwest having 20x DAL-Hou is not having a 9MAX or 10MAX.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10263
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:02 pm

[quote="afcjets"
If that’s the case it’s not the airlines fault. Boeing and Airbus should have shorter range widebodies which achieve economies of scale instead of the opposite.[/quote]
To follow the good corporate citizen mantra...or heaven forbid Airbus and Boeing limit the range of their narrow body fleet to 1,000 miles max thus forcing airlines to use widebody a/c. The range would be less than 1,000 once pax and bags are loaded, and airlines would not want to fly empty wide body a/c between NYC and places west and south so flights would have to be consolidated and frequencies decrease.
A knock off effect may see the re-emergence of true regional airlines since the majors would have less need for all those A32X and 737's.

Of course this does go hand in hand with it being the OEM's who build the a/c not looking out for the environment etc and allowing the airlines to run amok.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19746
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:15 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
From a yield management point of view I much rather work to fill 2 A320s a couple hours apart than a single A330 departure.

Smaller capacity plane tend to reduce pressure of discounting and are better to deal with things like day of week or seasonality swings.


One A321 every 30 minutes or one A330 every hour. The need for frequency is completely overdrawn in these discussions. When you get to 20 flights a day, a few wide bodies do not destroy frequency. When delays count in hours, frequency is down the drain anyway.

Are there enough routes 7 days a week, year round, to fly the A330? Would it have good utilization? If not, fly the A321, 10MAX, or whatever. Flying a subfleet of less than, by my calculations, 17 aircraft has horrid costs. It might be a higher number as AA wants to get rid of the E-190s as they do not have a large enough subfleet for decent economics and flexibility.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4157
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:23 pm

afcjets wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
They want more frequencies, not fewer. AA is operating 102-seat A321Ts 12x this coming Monday. Southwest has 20x DAL-HOU.


Nothing to do with frequency IMO. AA decided to go the ultra-premium route on transcon. It's their business choice, nothing more.


The higher frequency of 12-13 A321s vs. 7-8 762s allowed them to increase the yield by increasing the total number of premium cabin seats per day while decreasing Y and made the route profitable or less unprofitable.

Not the reason, as if they wanted they could also install more premium seats on 767
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:26 pm

c933103 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
The US regional model is based on what can be allowed by the scope provisions of the majors and legacy carrier's pilot labor contracts. So, that’s why an A330 “US Regional” doesn’t exist.

What you need to be asking is why isn’t there a LCC or ULCC doing this kind of flying. My guess is the competition is just too fierce and the margins aren’t worth it.

The thread is talking about a plane variant with regional in its name, not American regional flight market


Then the OP doesn’t understand the term regional as it applies to any commercial flying in the US. 3000NM is not regional in any country.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4157
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:28 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
The US regional model is based on what can be allowed by the scope provisions of the majors and legacy carrier's pilot labor contracts. So, that’s why an A330 “US Regional” doesn’t exist.

What you need to be asking is why isn’t there a LCC or ULCC doing this kind of flying. My guess is the competition is just too fierce and the margins aren’t worth it.

The thread is talking about a plane variant with regional in its name, not American regional flight market
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3506
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:52 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
c933103 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
The US regional model is based on what can be allowed by the scope provisions of the majors and legacy carrier's pilot labor contracts. So, that’s why an A330 “US Regional” doesn’t exist.

What you need to be asking is why isn’t there a LCC or ULCC doing this kind of flying. My guess is the competition is just too fierce and the margins aren’t worth it.

The thread is talking about a plane variant with regional in its name, not American regional flight market


Then the OP doesn’t understand the term regional as it applies to any commercial flying in the US. 3000NM is not regional in any country.


A330 Regional is a derated, lighter version of A333. Basically reduced MTOW weight, reduced range (b/c it can carry less fuel), but is "optimized" for high capacity, short to mid haul route.

Saudia was the only airline that took up the offer. The plane itself was clearly targeted at Chinese airlines, but they didn't bite.

Previous thread that would explain everything well:
viewtopic.php?t=1340929

P.S. "Regional" configuration is a pretty common name in APAC region for flights flying within that area. Both CX and SQ call their higher density widebodies (A330 mainly) "Regional Plane".
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23962
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The reality is the A321NEO and A220-300 carry a passenger for less.

Indeed. A330R is just a paper de-rate. It still carries the heavy landing gear and reinforced wings needed to carry loads of fuel that won't be needed on a domestic milk run, so it's cost per seat is going to be high. Then, add in the capacity risk and the bean counters get shivers.

People here are over-rating the relatively tiny number of domestic widebody flights in the US. They're largely being done with international aircraft with spare time on their hands or re-purposed elderly international aircraft no longer fit for international service. Compare/contrast to the large number of A321s, 739s, and soon 7310s the big three operate. It's no contest.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4157
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:55 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
c933103 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
The US regional model is based on what can be allowed by the scope provisions of the majors and legacy carrier's pilot labor contracts. So, that’s why an A330 “US Regional” doesn’t exist.

What you need to be asking is why isn’t there a LCC or ULCC doing this kind of flying. My guess is the competition is just too fierce and the margins aren’t worth it.

The thread is talking about a plane variant with regional in its name, not American regional flight market


Then the OP doesn’t understand the term regional as it applies to any commercial flying in the US. 3000NM is not regional in any country.

That is the name given by airbus. Airbus also have the A350 Regional with 6800NM range.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4157
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The reality is the A321NEO and A220-300 carry a passenger for less.

Indeed. A330R is just a paper de-rate. It still carries the heavy landing gear and reinforced wings needed to carry loads of fuel that won't be needed on a domestic milk run, so it's cost per seat is going to be high. Then, add in the capacity risk and the bean counters get shivers.

People here are over-rating the relatively tiny number of domestic widebody flights in the US. They're largely being done with international aircraft with spare time on their hands or re-purposed elderly international aircraft no longer fit for international service. Compare/contrast to the large number of A321s, 739s, and soon 7310s the big three operate. It's no contest.

Airlines in Asia do use A330 for Regional flights. But they just aren't buying this specific version for the task. Rumor I have heard was that there're some sort of limit on the amount of widebody aircraft each Chinese airlines can buy each year and thus they would prefer using their budget to buy widebody aircrafts that can occasionally fly domestic routes instead of getting a dedicated domestic wide body fleet. Probably easier to increase fleet utilization too despite slightly higher OEW would cause a slight increase to fuel bill and airport fee
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3506
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The reality is the A321NEO and A220-300 carry a passenger for less.

Indeed. A330R is just a paper de-rate. It still carries the heavy landing gear and reinforced wings needed to carry loads of fuel that won't be needed on a domestic milk run, so it's cost per seat is going to be high. Then, add in the capacity risk and the bean counters get shivers.

People here are over-rating the relatively tiny number of domestic widebody flights in the US. They're largely being done with international aircraft with spare time on their hands or re-purposed elderly international aircraft no longer fit for international service. Compare/contrast to the large number of A321s, 739s, and soon 7310s the big three operate. It's no contest.


Another side note I want to make - the thing that's seems to be even more overrated on a.net, IMO, is the amount of widebodies that's suppose to be flying domestic routes in mainland China. Even over in China, with its supposed crowded airspace, you have maybe 5-6 routes (PEK-SHA, PEK-CAN, PEK-SZX, SHA-CAN, SHA-SZX, PEK-CTU) that seems numerous A330s. All the other routes at best are like US domestic routes - i.e. 1-2 widebodies out of 15 daily flights. Even if you included HKG, you can add HKG-PEK and HKG-SHA (or PVG) and that's it.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3454
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:08 pm

c933103 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

Nothing to do with frequency IMO. AA decided to go the ultra-premium route on transcon. It's their business choice, nothing more.


The higher frequency of 12-13 A321s vs. 7-8 762s allowed them to increase the yield by increasing the total number of premium cabin seats per day while decreasing Y and made the route profitable or less unprofitable.

Not the reason, as if they wanted they could also install more premium seats on 767


AA was able to remove almost three times the number of Y seats by replacing the 762 than adding 5 more premium seats per aircraft (which would have been the equivalent of the exact percentage of net gain F/J with higher frequency A321). Also the 762s were almost 30 years old and needed to be replaced.
 
onlyboeing
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:27 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:04 pm

I live in both NYC and LA, so I take those transcons all the time. Frequency is great, because you can just head to the airport right after work, or head straight to work after coming off your flight. It's what most people prefer, at least out here.

As for replacing all the narrowbody frequency for widebodies, here's the thing. New York and LA are the two largest cities in America. The two largest economies in the country. Basically, if a widebody is going to replace a narrowbody, there's still going to be frequency. So instead of 10x daily on a 737/757, you're going to see 8x daily on a 767/A330. There's just so much demand for flights these days. In fact, it's what we're starting to see now, at least in the case of the transcons. UA adding 777 and 767s. Delta with the 767s and A330s. AA currently sticks with the A321, which is an extremely nice ride. But I wouldn't be surprised if we saw one of their 77Ws, 787, or A330 on the route one of these days.
 
737900ER
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:49 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:26 pm

For AA and DL, the number of frames that each carrier would want is 10 or fewer. With a fleet size that small it's just not worth it, and better to just use the international fleet when needed. In many cases, the international fleet is used because it has lie-flat up front. Adding a sub-fleet type would just add pointless complexity.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1428
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:

US airspace is about to get an upgrade, there will soon be no shortage of ability to move aircraft once off the ground. The few airports that need more runways & gates, should either expand or accept business goes elsewhere.


Please elucidate. In actual experience, the reverse has happened.

We were told that RVSM would elininate almost all enroute delays. Instead we got AFP's. ZOB (Cleveland Center) and ZDC (Washington Center), not to mention ZNY, are a black stain upon aviation.

I have no confidence in any ATC-related reform in the USA. They seem to get worse over time, not better.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19746
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:03 pm

SteelChair wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

US airspace is about to get an upgrade, there will soon be no shortage of ability to move aircraft once off the ground. The few airports that need more runways & gates, should either expand or accept business goes elsewhere.


Please elucidate. In actual experience, the reverse has happened.

We were told that RVSM would elininate almost all enroute delays. Instead we got AFP's. ZOB (Cleveland Center) and ZDC (Washington Center), not to mention ZNY, are a black stain upon aviation.

I have no confidence in any ATC-related reform in the USA. They seem to get worse over time, not better.

My experience is fewer delays. If is a problem, my employer has proposed an alternative solution.

The current approach was botched. Oops.

Every problem has a solution. If needed, privatize ATC. The current problems are political, not technical.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4157
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:11 pm

afcjets wrote:
c933103 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
The higher frequency of 12-13 A321s vs. 7-8 762s allowed them to increase the yield by increasing the total number of premium cabin seats per day while decreasing Y and made the route profitable or less unprofitable.

Not the reason, as if they wanted they could also install more premium seats on 767


AA was able to remove almost three times the number of Y seats by replacing the 762 than adding 5 more premium seats per aircraft (which would have been the equivalent of the exact percentage of net gain F/J with higher frequency A321). Also the 762s were almost 30 years old and needed to be replaced.

ah sorry could you rearticulate the post?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3534
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:41 pm

Flexibility is needed. The only reasons why one would need a wide-body in North America are:

1. Utilization to avoid having an aircraft parked for a long time - explains why on weekdays the AM unit of DL flies a B789 on MEX-JFK-MEX on AM408/9 instead of a B738 - it's typically 22-23x weekly B738 and 5-6x weekly B789. Otherwise, one may have the plane sitting for 15-16 hours.
2. Revenue repositioning - flights between LAX and ATL to rotate B77Ls or 242t A333s flown from LAX to Australia on the B77L or LAX-HND on the 242t A333, and ATL to JNB on the B77L and to regular Europe on the A333, or LAX-JFK to rotate a 242t A333 that flies at JFK on JFK-TLV
3. Need for a heavy premium configuration (i.e., NYC-LAX or SFO, YYZ-LAX, or YVR-NYC). The last one was forced because CX flies a triangular routing of HKG-YVR-JFK-HKG or HKG-JFK-YVR-HKG in addition to its nonstops, offering a 4-class product, which forced Air Canada to change the YVR-EWR equipment from an A319 to a B788 and now a B789 (51 premium seats on the Dreamliners versus 12 on the A319). The examples from NYC use A321s with 30 F/J seats on AA, DL internationally-configured planes with Delta One, and wide-bodies and p.s. 757s on UA (and Mint A321s on B6).
4. Slot-restricted airports with heavy volume. Currently, only JFK, LGA, and DCA are slot restricted in the USA; however, the largest current plane LGA can handle is the B764, while JFK uses larger narrow-bodies except where more premium seats are needed.

Now, one may say that 3 could justify an A330 Regional, but given how DL's A333s have 296 seats, that limits flexibility as this can't be used on missions greater than 3300 nmi or so. Hence it makes sense to get the longer-range plane for that. Everywhere else, frequency matters. In Europe, SAS has shown itself to be the master at this, being an airline that values frequency.
 
flyingfromcvg
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:44 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:18 pm

As a primarily DL flyer I’ve been on 767s LAX-ATL/JFK and SEA-MSP and 753s DTW-LAX/SEA. I don’t think we’ll see them add anything like the 330R until those types are retired. If a 797 that is lighter than the 330R is released that would likely win out. Even then, it would need to be able to be acquired on a per seat cost basis in line with a 321. IMHO, the only way DL would pay more is if they think either they can get consistently good yields on a premium heavy configuration or they start to fear a pilot shortage will affect their ability to offer frequency.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1745
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:56 pm

Airlines have incredibly dynamic pricing models. A330 Regional would be a ton of seats and given that they aren’t deployed, it doesn’t maximize money for the carriers. In fact, UA is the only carrier now with a domestic wide body (DL is about out of domestic 763s) the 772 in the HI configuration. They work on core hub to hub routes and to Hawaii (with some Europe dabbled in). To get the needed capacity, as noted above, they can just cycle a international bird on a domestic route.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:15 pm

N415XJ wrote:
As others have said, the US market is based on frequencies. If a 50 seat jet with the range ever gets made expect to see LAX-JFK runs with it at 30 minute intervals.


Can’t E190 make it? I remember seeing AC doing PDX-YYZ on E190.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4905
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:49 pm

Boriscenteno wrote:
Why US airlines do not get a330 regional 3000 nm range to serve routes like Miami- Los Angeles Nyc- lax etc is a cheaper airplane and instead of having 4 frequencies in one day they may have only 2 and carry more pax any thoughts?

Am I being mean or do you seem to know next to nothing about the USA? In the USA prople want frequency to fly WHEN their schedule permits it. They do not wait until certain times of day or days of the week to fly. They fly when the funds and opportunities exist. That thinking might work somewhere else but NOT in the USA which is precisely why the A380 would not have worked here. Savy?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4905
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:01 pm

crownvic wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Ive wondered this as well, I think its profit based than anything else. You get A330s/777s used in Asia on high demand domestic routes all the time, however I think you can make more profit filling a A321 99% 8 times a day vs a A330 80% 4 times a day.


Yes, don't let the dishonest airlines think they are appeasing the traveling public with more frequencies. It is nothing more than it being bean counter profit driven. At the same time, they could care less how much they clog the skies with all these narrow-bodies, which in turn adds to delays. The FAA/DOT have been way too lax in allowing airlines to pile on frequencies, in the sake of profits. It is insane how many narrow-body flights are operating trans-cons today where the skies could be much less packed with more wide-body types, with less frequencies. I doubt it will ever change though.

Yeah? So just Whom would you LET fly when they want to and Not let fly when they want to? What was De-regulation for? What you're talking about is Re-regulation and re-instaling the CAB. Which we ALL know "Ain't Gonna Happen"..
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3534
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Airbus a330 regional in the US

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:20 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The thread is talking about a plane variant with regional in its name, not American regional flight market


Then the OP doesn’t understand the term regional as it applies to any commercial flying in the US. 3000NM is not regional in any country.


A330 Regional is a derated, lighter version of A333. Basically reduced MTOW weight, reduced range (b/c it can carry less fuel), but is "optimized" for high capacity, short to mid haul route.

Saudia was the only airline that took up the offer. The plane itself was clearly targeted at Chinese airlines, but they didn't bite.

Previous thread that would explain everything well:
viewtopic.php?t=1340929

P.S. "Regional" configuration is a pretty common name in APAC region for flights flying within that area. Both CX and SQ call their higher density widebodies (A330 mainly) "Regional Plane".


I suspect it's because many Chinese airlines rotate them for short routes but then fly them out to Europe afterward...better for fleet flexibility, especially with the 242t version. Dreamliners are often deployed the same way. For instance, MF usually does a rotation of XMN-PEK-FOC-JFK-FOC-JFK-FOC-JFK-FOC-PEK-XMN for a B789.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos