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enilria
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Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:05 pm

Maybe IAG can buy them instead of DY!

https://nyti.ms/2mMhfGS
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:30 pm

Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.
 
mullac30
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:38 pm

If it results in a rebranding of the airline, I think that Kestrel Airways or something like it would be a great name- as its is one of the best callsigns flying! It could also help with their image on their non-leisure long haul services from MAN, which they have reportedly considered adding J class too.
 
Arion640
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:58 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Really? It’s a debt reduction device.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:01 am

Arion640 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Really? It’s a debt reduction device.


If that's the case, DL (via VS) should be bidding for that, as it's possible that VS could then develop a feed operation at MAN, and it would also allow a full-fledged secondary hub to be developed. This would likely be to prevent IAG from building up a second hub there.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
devron
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:08 am

This would potentially include Condor? It is a bit of an idiosyncratic Airline but ryanair might be interested in the shorthaul part to really get more in the german market like with lauda motion
 
sevenair
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:12 am

Arion640 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Really? It’s a debt reduction device.


No. This is a.net. If there's any way whatsoever that brexit can be blamed then it's 'because of brexit'.

Brexit also caused the recent heatwave, hosepipe ban, saddleworth moor fires, losing the World Cup and even the temporary closure of Greggs Westminster - what horror!

Still, the recent Eurotunnel issues (caused by the storms, because of brexit) and the queues is a taste of the '15 mile queues' we will have to face to cross La Manche!

On a more serious note, I wonder if easyJet would be interested. They're expanding robustly in the UK (despite brexit) and TCX have A321s which eJ now operate and have expressed their intentions to focus more on providing holidays and not just flights. Tegal is a massive operation and I'm not sure if they have the spare capacity to take onboard another airline or part of another airline.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:21 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Does or will UK have a law of its own to regulate the ownership of airlines?
Is this any problem? Can it be sold to the Chinese?
What about continental European operations?

(EU law requires airlines with AOC in any EU country to have more than 50 % of ownership by EU citizens or governments.)
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:25 am

Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:26 am

Maybe be bought by easy for expanding their holiday business /enter long haul holiday market ?
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:49 am

YIMBY wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Does or will UK have a law of its own to regulate the ownership of airlines?
Is this any problem? Can it be sold to the Chinese?
What about continental European operations?

(EU law requires airlines with AOC in any EU country to have more than 50 % of ownership by EU citizens or governments.)


The UK law on this subject embodies the EU law, and unless new legislation is introduced, it will continue to do so - that much is already decided. So no Chinese ownership there without new legislation. Chinese 49% shareholding would be possible now.
Thomas Cook Scandanavia and Condor will of course be bound by the EU laws for the foreseeable future as they are separate EU registered airlines, if that's what you meant by continental European operations. Of course if there is a Brexit with no agreement at all (and air travel is in the area which hasn't got a draft agreement yet), then the ownership of these two airlines by UK company Thomas Cook Group becomes a problem. It isn't insoluble though - look at Qatar's defacto control of Air Italy. Better not look at Etihad's control of anything though, unless you like seeing airlines go broke,
 
anstar
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:00 am

I wonder is this may lead to a merger with TUI?
 
LGAviation
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:04 am

seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.
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3AWM
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:13 am

I don't see an obvious buyer for the airline as a complete fit into any other airline, maybe worth more if the parts are broken up? A big part of the a value of the airline is that it has the "rights" to transport passengers on holidays sold by Thomas Cook, any buyer would surely want the tcontract to do this not just the airline.

How about:

EZY take shorthaul and A320s
Virgin take longhaul and A330s
Excess LGW slots sold to BA?
 
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Openside007
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:21 am

Don't forget the difference between a holiday charter airline and a scheduled one. TCX serves the Thomas Cook tour operators who need guaranteed capacity and lift to move their customers to the leisure destinations that they have sold to them. A charter airline exists to serve the tour operator and nothing else (seat only sales are on the flights as a bonus). Therefore, TC would need to have guaranteed lift capacity for their customers which may disrupt the plans of any scheduled airline who wanted to move them to a low fares basis.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:24 am

[code][/code]
enilria wrote:
Maybe IAG can buy them instead of DY!


Absolutely perfect acquisition for IAG as I see it,

1. Gives IAG Instant #2 airline in the German market, where they don't have an airline at the moment,
2. Gives IAG Instant presence in the Danish/Scandinavian market, where they don't have an airline at the moment,
3. Gives IAG/BA a boat-load more slots at LGW to play with, increasing slot-share there to about parity with EZY I guess,
4. Gives IAG/BA a boat-load more slots at several other regional UK airports
5. Gives IAG/BA the ability to turn dedicated TC flying into regular scheduled service......
6. Apart from the B757/767 at Condor, offers IAG perfect fleet commonality with the rest of IAGs huge Airbus fleet....
7. Will offer IAG airlines the considerable benefit of selling TC products and holidays; (maybe exclusively); on their services.
Hell; I can even see a scenario where TC takes over 'BA Holidays' in part-exchange for the airline........

I suspect WW has been on the phone already several times to talk it through.......
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:34 am

Openside007 wrote:
Don't forget the difference between a holiday charter airline and a scheduled one. TCX serves the Thomas Cook tour operators who need guaranteed capacity and lift to move their customers to the leisure destinations that they have sold to them. A charter airline exists to serve the tour operator and nothing else (seat only sales are on the flights as a bonus). Therefore, TC would need to have guaranteed lift capacity for their customers which may disrupt the plans of any scheduled airline who wanted to move them to a low fares basis.


.....true; but if as part of any deal IAG said they wanted say, 10% of aircraft capacity for general public sale; I don't see that as a deal breaker.

What is a huge part of this IMO is TC wanting the option to go to the market-place and invite bids from all airlines for flying bulk 10k passengers a year to Dalaman or wherever. TC want to reduce their costs, and this deal will involve a lot of 'horse-trading' on bulk-seat-volumes for maybe 5 years. So, if youre easyJet or IAG, whats the point of buying TCX, if TCX uses another airline to move its passengers on ? For both IAG & EZY, the main prize here will I suspect be DE.......

This is going to be an interesting one !!!!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:46 am

LGAviation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.


With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:53 am

SelseyBill wrote:
[code][/code]
enilria wrote:
Maybe IAG can buy them instead of DY!


Absolutely perfect acquisition for IAG as I see it,


3. Gives IAG/BA a boat-load more slots at LGW to play with, increasing slot-share there to about parity with EZY I guess,


I suspect WW has been on the phone already several times to talk it through.......

You're greatly over-estimating TCX's slot holding at LGW. They only have about 3% of total slots this summer as against Easyjet's 43%. BA+TCX comes to 22%, even BA+TCX+Norwegian only comes to 32%.
Now admittedly Aer Lingus, Vueling, and Iberia Express have slots too, rather more in total than TCX does, which would make IAG+TCX 25%

Source:
https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploa ... RT-S18.pdf
Page 3. Registration required.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:26 am

It's not entirely clear to me whether Thomas Cook are referring to the entire Europe-wide airline business (i.e. TCX, Condor) or just the UK airline business (TCX only). I think it's the former (based on reference to doing well because of Air Berlin's demise) but I think this is a first port of clarification.

Secondly, it doesn't sound like a disposal scenario whereby the entire assets (or shares) of the airline busines are sold to a third party (e.g. IAG). It sounds more like they want to sell a minority stake (a Chinese entity has been mentioned) in order to reduce debt and perhaps obtain synergies or a better market position (for example finding a Chinese partner).

Interesting times. They have been opening up lots of new markets at MAN, so hopefully any sale does not adversely affect the operation there (who Evers banner the operation is under).
 
rutankrd
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:38 am

3AWW I think you have an impression TCX are somewhat larger at Gatwick than they are - peak season they have just 15 slot pairs in a 24 hour period and they have just one long haul aircraft based all week.

In the scheme of things they are pretty small fry .

Thomas Cook the holiday and flight division sell seats on many other carriers includeing BA already.

Manchester is the airline UKs branch main main base by a margin.

TCX and CFG back office operations are almost entirely merged.

Any break away or out right disposal of the airline and inclusive tour operations in the UK in particular would almost certainly see the brand disappear for the side of the aircraft.

Seahawk - you are so wrong on the Condor brand it VERY strong in Germany indeed they were forced to bring back not so long ago. It also far better known in the US where they front this brand over TCX UK for the sale of their Scheduled service operations to and from Manchester.

Condor will more likely survive.

As for foreign holding 49% threshold remains in the UK and the Chinese are looking at cash investments and the Thomas Cook brand may well play nicely with the likes of CASSA and their HNA group owners.
Imho HNA are the most obvious partner all other financial woes aside.

They already have interests in aviation outside of China including holdings in TAP/Aigle Azur and Azul ( quiet co-operation exits between these three already)

TCX would bring commonality in fleet as well and further strengthen their European foot print in a major market completely in line with the Chinese development imperative demanded at the very highest place in Beijing.
 
3AWM
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:57 am

rutankrd wrote:
3AWW I think you have an impression TCX are somewhat larger at Gatwick than they are - peak season they have just 15 slot pairs in a 24 hour period and they have just one long haul aircraft based all week..


Not at all, I was just suggesting that the spare capacity could be picked up by EZY and Virgin and there would be slots left over that could be sold to realise cash on the transaction.
 
smi0006
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:58 am

Maybe I’ve misunderstood- from the article, they are only looking to sell a stake in the airline. Not the whole thing.... as such sounds like access to more capital, otherwise not a huge business model shift, or purchase be a competing carrier
 
by738
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:17 am

yes at this stage its just an investing stake, and not a complete sell off. I dont see anything changing in the short to medium term.
 
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Vasu
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:22 am

I wonder whether the dedicated airlines will go altogether? Will companies like Thomas Cook just book random planes from whichever airlines they can find cheaply to get their passengers to their destinations? Seems they are doing quite a bit of outsourcing this year already, to the likes of Smartlynx and Avion Express.

I’ve noticed that more and more British tour operators are using planes from Eastern European charter airlines for their flights, such as EnterAir, Small Planet, TravelService etc. This has got to be more cost-effective, and I really doubt the majority of customers on these package deals know or care about who the plane belongs to...
 
VSMUT
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:22 am

seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


It would be an even more perfect rebrand the other way. Condor is an established brand, and goes well in almost all European languages. Sounds better than Level too.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:26 am

What about their large engineering facility at MAN ? Would that be of interest to the likes of EasyJet or anyone else ? Is it also like Monarch Engineering, a separate entity in legal terms from the airline ?
 
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LTU330
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:34 am

LGAviation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.


No idea why though. I live in Germany and recently booked their Premium Economy for flights MUC - PMI - MUC. Both flights were on 757-300 with the new(ish) Recaro seats. No recline ! How can you advertise any seat with the word Premium when it doesn't even recline half an inch :) I have flown Norwegian several times out of MUC and they are much better than Condor with free Wifi. I would never book the Premium on Condor again (probably would only fly them if it was the only option). On the way back we were the only two Passengers in "Premium". I had changed my Seats online from 1A/C to 2A/C because the Legroom with the Bulkhead at 1A/C was terrible. When we checked our bags at PMI they moved us back to 1A/C saying that as we were the only Passengers using Premium we had to sit in Row 1. I asked if we could have the D/F Seats as the Legroom on that side was a little better we noticed on the outbound flight., but D/E/F had already been allocated to other Passengers, so we ended up with worse seats than non "Premium" Passengers. It was also pretty embarrasing being offered pre-flight drinks etc with everyone else staring at us :) In fact, for the price I paid for this Premium Economy on Condor, I have got a return flight on the same route in October with Lufthansa in Business Class for only 20 Euros more, with the added bonus of Lounge access and decent Legroom.

As for Thomas Cook, it shocks me that they are considering this. Surely it is better to have your own in house Airline ? The brand is well known and respected now, and they seem to be doing well on the Longhauls out of MAN, and their European bucket and spade operation is also doing well from what I have heard from former Colleagues who work for them.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:53 pm

Andy33 wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
[code][/code]
enilria wrote:
Maybe IAG can buy them instead of DY!


Absolutely perfect acquisition for IAG as I see it,


3. Gives IAG/BA a boat-load more slots at LGW to play with, increasing slot-share there to about parity with EZY I guess,


I suspect WW has been on the phone already several times to talk it through.......

You're greatly over-estimating TCX's slot holding at LGW. They only have about 3% of total slots this summer as against Easyjet's 43%. BA+TCX comes to 22%, even BA+TCX+Norwegian only comes to 32%.
Now admittedly Aer Lingus, Vueling, and Iberia Express have slots too, rather more in total than TCX does, which would make IAG+TCX 25%

Source:
https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploa ... RT-S18.pdf
Page 3. Registration required.


....thanks for that 'Andy33' id obviously overestimated TCX LGW slot basket, but nonetheless, it is still something potentially valuable to IAG........
 
Jetter330
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:58 pm

It could be a nice opportunity for EW/LH to set foot in the UK after the BMI debacle.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:59 pm

VSMUT wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


It would be an even more perfect rebrand the other way. Condor is an established brand, and goes well in almost all European languages. Sounds better than Level too.


Completely agree with 'VSMUT' on the Condor brand.....if IAG were to get control of TCX and DE, they could do a lot worse that to rebrand their entire operation in the Germanic hinterland as 'Condor' IMO.......

For me 'Condor' works a lot better for them than 'Vueling' outside Spain......
 
f4f3a
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:59 pm

Also could be opportunity for jet 2 they have expanded quite a lot . Also this could just be a tactical manoeuvre against the workforce . Didn’t they go on strike recently ? The threat i believe is as a sell off of the airline side of things
 
YIMBY
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 pm

Andy33 wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.


Does or will UK have a law of its own to regulate the ownership of airlines?
Is this any problem? Can it be sold to the Chinese?
What about continental European operations?

(EU law requires airlines with AOC in any EU country to have more than 50 % of ownership by EU citizens or governments.)


The UK law on this subject embodies the EU law, and unless new legislation is introduced, it will continue to do so - that much is already decided. So no Chinese ownership there without new legislation. Chinese 49% shareholding would be possible now.
Thomas Cook Scandanavia and Condor will of course be bound by the EU laws for the foreseeable future as they are separate EU registered airlines, if that's what you meant by continental European operations. Of course if there is a Brexit with no agreement at all (and air travel is in the area which hasn't got a draft agreement yet), then the ownership of these two airlines by UK company Thomas Cook Group becomes a problem. It isn't insoluble though - look at Qatar's defacto control of Air Italy. Better not look at Etihad's control of anything though, unless you like seeing airlines go broke,


It is then a problem and there is no other way than to split TC Scandinavia and Condor out of TC UK, as the only way to reconcile EU and UK laws is owners of double nationality, and that may not occur overnight.
(So far the EU authorities have indeed been very slow to revoke AOC for airlines that have been effectively controlled by non EU citizens, so probably nothing happens within the first few months.)
 
Rudenko
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm

JannEejit wrote:
What about their large engineering facility at MAN ? Would that be of interest to the likes of EasyJet or anyone else ? Is it also like Monarch Engineering, a separate entity in legal terms from the airline ?



Most of Thomas Cooks line maintenance has been outsourced to Monarch nowadays.
The Manchester facilities have seen many hands over the years but yes EZY is a good shout, or Jet2 expand next door.
 
axiom
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:01 pm

It's very apparent than all but one person who has posted in this thread read the original article (or, read it with any ability to discern what was being said). Nowhere does it say that MT is entirely for sale. This is about restructuring the organisation and raising capital.
 
3AWM
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:40 pm

The original Times article talks about this in more detail but it's behind a paywall : https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/thom ... -xzkwhh2n3

Further down the "industry insider" is talking about guaranteeing a certain number of seats in the long term and the challenges to the sale being overseas ownership restrictions.

The minority sale/Fosun bit comes from the journalist's own speculation.

This makes me think they are talking about a full sale here or at least considering selling a majority sale. It also says they are talking about it internally which makes this article look like a bit of a "come and get me" to interested parties.

Thomas Cook has held talks about selling a stake in its airline, raising the prospect of the 177-year-old travel giant being broken up.

Industry sources said it had held internal discussions on how to split its airline from its tour operator to free up cash, which would be used to pay down a big debt burden and fuel expansion.

Work on a possible separation is thought to be at an early stage, with nothing likely to happen imminently. However, an eventual move could reinvigorate the company after years of turmoil.

Thomas Cook has long wrestled with how to pay down debt and fund growth amid fierce competition from budget airlines and holiday booking websites.

Under former boss Harriet Green, it partially repaired its finances in 2013 through a £1.6bn capital restructuring. However, with debts of £886m in March and annual profits of just £12m on £9bn of turnover, its finances are widely seen as unsustainable.

A break-up of Thomas Cook, run by travel veteran Peter Fankhauser, would be complicated by the need to guarantee flights for its holidaymakers, and by restrictions on foreign ownership of airlines. However, an industry source said it could secure flights via a multi-year deal with the airline. In turn, being able to guarantee that at least 50% of its seats were filled by holidaymakers would make the airline an attractive asset.

Thomas Cook has already paved the way for a potential split by merging its different airline brands into one standalone company.

Selling a minority stake in the carrier would free up capital at Thomas Cook to expand its tour business and allow the airline to buy more planes. The Chinese conglomerate Fosun, a 12% shareholder in Thomas Cook, could be a possible investor.

Thomas Cook is set to update shareholders on recent trading this week, with the City expecting the going to have been tough.

The company said: “Thomas Cook has consistently said that we are open to playing our part in consolidation where it makes sense for our business. We have no current plans to sell our airline.”
 
Airlinepilot129
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:11 pm

Cue un-ironic "Lufthansa could take back Condor"
Still Working Hard, Still Flying Right.

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Galwayman
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:10 pm

Flew them last year from Cape Town to London and was very impressed , much more impressive than the tired And dirty British Airways aircraft with miserable mixed fleet crew I took on the outward trip . But the brand needs a refresh , calling the airline after a named person is very old fashioned
 
Eurowingsa320
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:12 pm

Thomas cook we’re looking to replace the Condor 767 fleet so if there planning on selling condor along side the uk airline then have they stop looking for replacement aircraft ?
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:13 pm

axiom wrote:
It's very apparent than all but one person who has posted in this thread read the original article (or, read it with any ability to discern what was being said). Nowhere does it say that MT is entirely for sale. This is about restructuring the organisation and raising capital.


true.....but for the potential investor(s); whether 1% or 51+%; there is much more nuance and strategy involved than just listing the runners and riders..........

All posts here so far perfectly valid IMO.........
 
Luftymatt
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:32 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly anticipating a hard Brexit.

Almost certainly nothing to do with Brexit. Thomas Cook have been considering selling the airline for years.
chase the sun
 
LGAviation
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Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:23 pm

seahawk wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.


With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.


Yes, they do. All Condor longhaul passengers I know (being from FRA), would gladly switch to the other hometown airline Lufthansa if they offered more holiday destinations and would have the money to buy those tickets. Condor isn't in the longhaul LCC market and its passengers aren't either. If LEVEL is the offering, then it won't continue with the same passengers

I absolutely agree with you that there shorthaul offering is horrendous and could very well be replaced with LEVEL although I would feel that the brand Condor still gives them an edge in the Mediterranean market but it will slowly die since Condor isn't well known outside of its strongholds and especially not in the new generation but for the time being there's lots of German pensioners going to Mallorca willing to pay extra for Condor.

Last year, I flew them to Lanzarote on a €80 return day trip and I was probably forty years younger than the average passenger on that plane and two neighbours of mine successively had health issues causing me to switch places in order for medical staff to be able to properly assist.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:31 pm

seahawk wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Condor would be perfect to rebrand as level.


Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.


With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.
mom

Flew Condor recently. Fine flight in both directions. What exactly is it that Gen Z or Y is missing out on?
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2441
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:09 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
seahawk wrote:
LGAviation wrote:

Haha, good one. It wouldn't. You would lose lots of Germans on the way and would be flying half-empty flights. Condor passengers aren't driven by price, they are almost never the cheapest, but by passengers who have always booked them and will always book them.


With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.
mom

Flew Condor recently. Fine flight in both directions. What exactly is it that Gen Z or Y is missing out on?


Exactly. What's 'wrong' with generations Z or Y that we all had to seemingly accommodate their fits? Would they perhaps be happier if enabled to spray with graffiti the side walls while listening to a pod cast??
:old:

I flew DE some time back on a mid-haul, and found them to be perfectly fine - indeed on par if not better that many non-leisure airlines. Seat pitch was a bit tight perhaps, but service was excellent.
Oh, and there were also quite a large number of young people on board, and not one seemed to mind either the hot dinner, the free wine or the pillows and blankets.... :scratchchin:
 
LGAviation
Posts: 863
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:18 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
seahawk wrote:

With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.
mom

Flew Condor recently. Fine flight in both directions. What exactly is it that Gen Z or Y is missing out on?


Exactly. What's 'wrong' with generations Z or Y that we all had to seemingly accommodate their fits? Would they perhaps be happier if enabled to spray with graffiti the side walls while listening to a pod cast??
:old:

I flew DE some time back on a mid-haul, and found them to be perfectly fine - indeed on par if not better that many non-leisure airlines. Seat pitch was a bit tight perhaps, but service was excellent.
Oh, and there were also quite a large number of young people on board, and not one seemed to mind either the hot dinner, the free wine or the pillows and blankets.... :scratchchin:



All I was arguing is that their brand recognition with they younger generation is sub-par. The app and entire online presence is horrendous and outdated. They are usually neither cheap nor spectacular for service. There's nothing wrong with a free glass of wine, although I usually hate aircraft wines, but free wi-fi or wi-fi would mean a lot more than that to me. I'm not saying young people won't fly Condor but I don't see many paying a premium over Norwegian for example.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8947
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:23 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
seahawk wrote:

With the new market, they have no choice. Fly Level or do not fly. Condor is a brand that is long due for replacement anyway. It smells of 1970ies style holidays and bad service. Nothing for Generation Z or Y to get excited about.
mom

Flew Condor recently. Fine flight in both directions. What exactly is it that Gen Z or Y is missing out on?


Exactly. What's 'wrong' with generations Z or Y that we all had to seemingly accommodate their fits? Would they perhaps be happier if enabled to spray with graffiti the side walls while listening to a pod cast??
:old:

I flew DE some time back on a mid-haul, and found them to be perfectly fine - indeed on par if not better that many non-leisure airlines. Seat pitch was a bit tight perhaps, but service was excellent.
Oh, and there were also quite a large number of young people on board, and not one seemed to mind either the hot dinner, the free wine or the pillows and blankets.... :scratchchin:


The whole branding in the digital world is outdated and the overall brand feels old, boring and tired.
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2095
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:48 pm

seahawk wrote:
The whole branding in the digital world is outdated and the overall brand feels old, boring and tired.


That really, really doesn't matter for the overwhelming majority of European (German included) holiday makers. All that matters is price. If you really believe that the average German youth cares about which airline they are taking on their trip to PMI, or worry that the airline isn't "Hip" enough, you are sorely mistaken. A lot of people don't even know which airline they fly on until they arrive at the airport and start looking for the check in desk.
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8947
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:18 pm

Then they should not care if they are flying as level or Condor.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Thomas Cook Mulling Airline Sale

Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:50 am

seahawk wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
mom

Flew Condor recently. Fine flight in both directions. What exactly is it that Gen Z or Y is missing out on?


Exactly. What's 'wrong' with generations Z or Y that we all had to seemingly accommodate their fits? Would they perhaps be happier if enabled to spray with graffiti the side walls while listening to a pod cast??
:old:

I flew DE some time back on a mid-haul, and found them to be perfectly fine - indeed on par if not better that many non-leisure airlines. Seat pitch was a bit tight perhaps, but service was excellent.
Oh, and there were also quite a large number of young people on board, and not one seemed to mind either the hot dinner, the free wine or the pillows and blankets.... :scratchchin:


The whole branding in the digital world is outdated and the overall brand feels old, boring and tired.


Based on your logic, 80% of the airlines in the world could fit this description.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?

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