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phlswaflyer
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:28 pm

This is BS. Not buying it. This dude has just gotten the best PR ever. He played it and knew what he was doing.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:30 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:
DL717 wrote:

And if someone doesn’t know it’s your spouse because you’re in a separate PNR, then you have nothing to stand on do you? Use a little logic here. Do you really think Alaska kicked someone out of a seat for being gay? Seriously? Because that’s about the stupidest assumption that can actually be made in all of this. From there you have to look at what would be logical. Separate PNRs? An IT issue? A late connector being given their seats back? Those are logical conclusions regarding the matter. Not... “you’re gay, get out of that seat”. That a completely absurd conclusion.


Agree with the poster who says you are bending over backwards to justify this. It happened. Let AS deal with it.

Even if there were separate PNRs, if the couple was asked to move and then declined it should have been over. Period.

Discrimination is not rational. It is not rational to do it, and it is not rational to hold it/process it/respond to it when you have been subjected to it. This is why need a little empathy in the world. In this case, AS can - and should/appears to be - listening and taking a reasonable look into what happened.

And no, I'm not of the opinion that the FA should be fired. We should all be able to have a little grace and try to be understanding when conflicts happen. I see no evidence that AS (as a company) and this customer are -not- doing that now. Until then, waiting for more facts.


Fired? We’ve already gotten the question about jail time raised in this thread. Jail time. When we don’t even know all the facts.


And that's clearly an inappropriate and hurtful response. But for me that anonymous and rabid noise pales against the casual dismissal (and overt bigotry, which has been flagged and deleted), which is on display in this very thread, in what I consider to be a community of people with shared interests.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:31 pm

This entire thing is total BS. They got the best PR AND played this perfectly. Wow!!
 
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mbmbos
Posts: 2853
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I think this is much ado about nothing. I think AS gave the first man an option and he flipped out. I have not seen anything about "you are gay so leave" in any reports. I don't get why this is a gay vs. straight issue. One couple was asked to leave in favor of another, no gender, no identity, no nothing more asked of them, other than, "can you move please?"


Believe it or not, nobody has to utter an epithet for it to be discrimination. I assure you that if a straight couple were split up for a gay couple, Hannity and Alex Jones would be going ballistic over it.

And so would you.


There is a difference between "would you mind changing seats because this other couple wants to sit here also and we overbooked" and "this straight couple wants to sit here and you clearly don't matter." AS is more intelligent than that. They "grew up" on the West Coast and they know better. In this case, I would side with the FA. I have read three different accounts and I have seen nothing at all to suggest this is about sexual orientation.

Some of us in LGBTQ+ are hyper sensitive. I start to, but I take a step back and think about the situation.


Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:34 pm

This thread has become another classic example of, pardon the pun, black vs. white thinking.
AS will never disclose to us what exactly happened. Even if the passenger was wrong. They want this to go away. They'll take the high road, refund the customer, and make this issue go away.
Social media "outrage" has put customer service in general on notice. Large companies have to just nip it in the butt. Opportunistic customers abound. Karma is a biatch though. The joke is on them, mostly.
The loser in all of this? A valid complaint.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:39 pm

axiom wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:

Agree with the poster who says you are bending over backwards to justify this. It happened. Let AS deal with it.

Even if there were separate PNRs, if the couple was asked to move and then declined it should have been over. Period.

Discrimination is not rational. It is not rational to do it, and it is not rational to hold it/process it/respond to it when you have been subjected to it. This is why need a little empathy in the world. In this case, AS can - and should/appears to be - listening and taking a reasonable look into what happened.

And no, I'm not of the opinion that the FA should be fired. We should all be able to have a little grace and try to be understanding when conflicts happen. I see no evidence that AS (as a company) and this customer are -not- doing that now. Until then, waiting for more facts.


Fired? We’ve already gotten the question about jail time raised in this thread. Jail time. When we don’t even know all the facts.


And that's clearly an inappropriate and hurtful response. But for me that anonymous and rabid noise pales against the casual dismissal (and overt bigotry, which has been flagged and deleted), which is on display in this very thread, in what I consider to be a community of people with shared inteirests.


Clearly you have never visited the Non-Av forum. It’s akin to reading the comments after a news story.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:42 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Fired? We’ve already gotten the question about jail time raised in this thread. Jail time. When we don’t even know all the facts.


And that's clearly an inappropriate and hurtful response. But for me that anonymous and rabid noise pales against the casual dismissal (and overt bigotry, which has been flagged and deleted), which is on display in this very thread, in what I consider to be a community of people with shared inteirests.


Clearly you have never visited the Non-Av forum. It’s akin to reading the comments after a news story.


I know better, and largely come here to learn rather than to bloviate about politics. =)
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:49 pm

axiom wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:

And that's clearly an inappropriate and hurtful response. But for me that anonymous and rabid noise pales against the casual dismissal (and overt bigotry, which has been flagged and deleted), which is on display in this very thread, in what I consider to be a community of people with shared inteirests.


Clearly you have never visited the Non-Av forum. It’s akin to reading the comments after a news story.


I know better, and largely come here to learn rather than to bloviate about politics. =)



Good call. Though gender, race, faith, etc are all discussed there as well, and quite often do not turn out well.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Yonderlust
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:32 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:53 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Isn't discrimination a criminal offence in the US? Why hasn't the FA in question been brought in to a Police station for questioning?

In this country the law says: Any person who, in a commercial or similar business, denies a person goods or services due to the person's gender expression or orientation, shall be punished with penalties or imprisonment for up to 6 months.


Someone please correct me if wrong but discrimination is a civil not criminal. I don't believe police get involved with civil crimes unless it escalates to criminal.
 
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reidar76
Posts: 448
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:01 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Isn't discrimination a criminal offence in the US? Why hasn't the FA in question been brought in to a Police station for questioning?

In this country the law says: Any person who, in a commercial or similar business, denies a person goods or services due to the person's gender expression or orientation, shall be punished with penalties or imprisonment for up to 6 months.


Prove it happened like that. I’d say it was the opposite - they were initially “refused service” (downgraded) because the FA didn’t know they were a gay couple. And again, we still don’t even know the exact details of what happened and why. We just know that “something” happened, it didn’t go well, the airline has apologized, and they are investigating.

Separately, I’d suggest that they were not refused service but rather were moved. Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Not saying that’s good, but it might shield even a blatantly racist FA from jail time.


You are absolutely right, we don't know the exact details of what happened and why. We just know that “something” happened. I find it strange that the Police isn't investigating the matter in order to get the details right and clarify if a crime has been committed. Normal procedure should be taking statements from the parties involved and possible witnesses.

From what I have read about this incident it sounds like discrimination isn't a criminal offense in the US.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 794
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:13 pm

The problem is, your two statements are incompatible with each other.

You say,
“We wait for the facts.”
But before that you said,
“Yes, that's right - I choose to empathize with the person who says they have experienced discrimination. 100%. Every day.”


The two statements are mutually exclusive. I agree with the first statement. We should wait for the facts. We shouldn’t believe, trust or empathize “100%” until we get the facts.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:22 pm

tlecam wrote:
To her credit, the flight attendant apologized profusely. She actually approached us later in flight and apologized again and said she never should have assumed we weren’t a couple. We accepted her apology, of course, and it was clear to us that she wasn’t homophobic or bigoted, and that she would be more thoughtful in the future.


Good for you, and good for the flight attendant for being honest about her mistake, making a sincere apology, and sharing with you how she'll strive not to make that mistake again.

Quite in contrast to how some here seem to feel you should be forced to show a marriage certificate and be on the same PNR in order to be treated as a couple. Some will never learn that jobs are a lot easier when you treat people with simple human kindness.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:22 pm

DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:

Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree. I AM entitled to sit next to my spouse, and no, we would not quietly give up our seats for someone else if we have boarded and are in the seats that match our tickets.

Instead, it is YOU that are being entitled, thinking that someone else's problems should take a back seat to your convenience.

I'll say it again: ALASKA AIRLINES ruined 180 people's day, not the couple that AS was screwing over.


And if someone doesn’t know it’s your spouse because you’re in a separate PNR, then you have nothing to stand on do you?

Uhh... how about his word? The correct response from the employee should have been "oh, never mind then. I'll ask someone else." Not "move or be removed from the flight." They do not even have to be married for this to have been the correct course of action.

"Can you move so that I can place this couple together?" "No, he's my colleague, and we are travelling together." "Oh, my bad. I'll ask someone else."

See?

DL717 wrote:
Do you really think Alaska kicked someone out of a seat for being gay?

No, not particularly, as I said in Reply 3. As I also said in Reply 3, AS handled this like crap.

DL717 wrote:
You also aren’t entitled to sit next to your spouse either.

Source?


DL717 wrote:
You’re assigned a seat, and you can still get bumped.
And once you've boarded, bumping is involuntary. This isn't 'Nam. There are rules. AS should have sought another way to fix their f-up.
 
Gumffo1
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:45 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:24 pm

I think one thing needs to be set straight here:

I will 100% guarantee that what was said was not "Hello sir, you look gay to me, move for this straight couple or I'm throwing you off!"

In all likelihood Cooley's companion was asked to move nicely, refused, other pax also refused, and then the FA, feeling that someone had to be moved for whatever reason, put to Cooley's companion either moving or deplaning.

I'm not saying that AS handled the issue correctly or that someone should or shouldn't have been moved, as we don't have that information. I'm not even saying that in hindsight it couldn't well be seen as discriminatory. All I'm saying that as cabin crew myself, I have seen too many issues where (be it for w&b, seat duplicates, etc.) a passenger has to be moved and they immediately start complaining that it's because they're white/black/hispanic/straight/gay/single/married/male/female etc. Nobody I know of likes having to reseat seated passengers, nobody enjoys having to ask passengers to shuffle, and nobody likes the glitches that the software sometimes throws up. I've also never seen a case where alternatives aren't looked at, volunteers asked for, upgrades offered, etc. 95% of the time this works and results as a non-issue, but that other 5% of the time unfortunately the A/C isn't leaving until the issue is resolved, even if it means deplaning a passenger.

Again, if it turns out that sexuality was the motivator here then of course there is an issue, but being in the industry myself I just cannot imagine a situation where, frankly, the airline employee really cares about the person's sexuality when trying to resolve an issue.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:35 pm

Here's what is probably true:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple.

Here's what imo we do not know:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple because they were gay.

THe airline industry is famously accepting of gays, so I'm not ready to conclude that this was a homophobic event. BUT MY ANTENNAE ARE UP.

Here's what we also know if Cooley's factual assesment is true: AS assigned two people to one seat--a major screwup that required them to choose a winner. That's always going to be a recipe for a fight. Instead of fixing the problem gracefully (offering the aggrieved some sort of acceptable benefit), they issued them a threat - comply or deplane. So while I'm not ready to convict Alaska Airlines of homophobia, they are certainly in the wrong. And if every one of the actors in this story were straight, everyone here would agree with me.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:37 pm

reidar76 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Isn't discrimination a criminal offence in the US? Why hasn't the FA in question been brought in to a Police station for questioning?

In this country the law says: Any person who, in a commercial or similar business, denies a person goods or services due to the person's gender expression or orientation, shall be punished with penalties or imprisonment for up to 6 months.


Prove it happened like that. I’d say it was the opposite - they were initially “refused service” (downgraded) because the FA didn’t know they were a gay couple. And again, we still don’t even know the exact details of what happened and why. We just know that “something” happened, it didn’t go well, the airline has apologized, and they are investigating.

Separately, I’d suggest that they were not refused service but rather were moved. Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Not saying that’s good, but it might shield even a blatantly racist FA from jail time.


You are absolutely right, we don't know the exact details of what happened and why. We just know that “something” happened. I find it strange that the Police isn't investigating the matter in order to get the details right and clarify if a crime has been committed. Normal procedure should be taking statements from the parties involved and possible witnesses.

From what I have read about this incident it sounds like discrimination isn't a criminal offense in the US.


The police aren’t going to just show up. Someone would have to call them and file a report. Perhaps the passenger didn’t want to escalate it that far? Perhaps the passenger didn’t know they could involve the police? Perhaps the passenger didn’t have time to hang around and risk missing more flights? Perhaps the passenger worried that the police would investigate?

Who knows?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:38 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's what is probably true:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple.

Here's what imo we do not know:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple because they were gay.

THe airline industry is famously accepting of gays, so I'm not ready to conclude that this was a homophobic event. BUT MY ANTENNAE ARE UP.

Here's what we also know if Cooley's factual assesment is true: AS assigned two people to one seat--a major screwup that required them to choose a winner. That's always going to be a recipe for a fight. Instead of fixing the problem gracefully (offering the aggrieved some sort of acceptable benefit), they issued them a threat - comply or deplane. So while I'm not ready to convict Alaska Airlines of homophobia, they are certainly in the wrong. And if every one of the actors in this story were straight, everyone here would agree with me.


IF is a big word, and in this thread it’s been a popular one. Yet somehow it’s almost brushed over as irrelevant.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:39 pm

DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:
I would move if a gate agent or crew member asked me to. I really don't feel entitled to ruin 180 other people's day by causing a delay, cancellation, or just a making a scene. You can get a refund if you paid for the ticket. You might even be granted some small compensation for your inconvenience, such as miles or a voucher. But to demand someone to lose their job because you didn't get to sit next to your "honey" is just wrong.


This. People are so effing entitled these days it’s beyond ridiculous. Cooley and/or his partner were asked to move for whatever justifiable reasons there was. Airlines don’t just move people around for shits and giggles, there was a valid reason for the action being taken. They weren’t told.... “you’re gay, get to the back of the bus”.


Exactly. That stewardess or gate agent have more important things to do than determine who's dating and who's two strangers just sitting next to each other. They're just trying to get that plane out on time.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:43 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's what is probably true:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple.

Here's what imo we do not know:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple because they were gay.

THe airline industry is famously accepting of gays, so I'm not ready to conclude that this was a homophobic event. BUT MY ANTENNAE ARE UP.

Here's what we also know if Cooley's factual assesment is true: AS assigned two people to one seat--a major screwup that required them to choose a winner. That's always going to be a recipe for a fight. Instead of fixing the problem gracefully (offering the aggrieved some sort of acceptable benefit), they issued them a threat - comply or deplane. So while I'm not ready to convict Alaska Airlines of homophobia, they are certainly in the wrong. And if every one of the actors in this story were straight, everyone here would agree with me.


Is it also reasonable to assume (yes I know this is dangerous) that AS would have no idea that the "traveling companions" were gay before one of them was asked to move or deplane? As often as not, someone in a position of semi-authority, once having made a decision, will not change that decision. Questioning said authority will just make them dig in harder.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:53 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
The problem is, your two statements are incompatible with each other.

You say,
“We wait for the facts.”
But before that you said,
“Yes, that's right - I choose to empathize with the person who says they have experienced discrimination. 100%. Every day.”


The two statements are mutually exclusive. I agree with the first statement. We should wait for the facts. We shouldn’t believe, trust or empathize “100%” until we get the facts.


No, they are not.

Empathizing is not the same as making a declarative judgement. It is saying "hey, I hear you -- and I am by your side while we figure this out." Yes, I choose to stand with the person who claims they have been discriminated against, and to help facilitate that dialogue and understanding when possible.

When you are a minority facing discrimination, often in a very hostile context, it can be stressful to face it alone. At times, it can be very (physically) dangerous. It is emotionally exhausting to respond to every instance of discrimination, and to advocate for yourself. Most often, in my experience, people simply internalize the incident and move on quietly -- this, too, has a cost. In these contexts, it can make a world of difference to have your perspective validated by someone who has also experienced discrimination, or who is at least willing to listen and support you.

I am not saying that this couple faced a threat of physical violence. But they do face a discriminatory world, one which is fraught by the (often invisible) tolls of that process. Eruptions of conflict happen. What one may see as a "hypersensitive" response to a situation is for others the latest incident in a lifetime of experiences.

On a more speculative note, I perceive that attempts by individuals to deny, mock, or otherwise invalidate this behavior is only going to make the situation more fraught. As things get more hostile to minorities (they are, in my experience), the impetus to speak up and out is only building.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:00 pm

DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:
I would move if a gate agent or crew member asked me to. I really don't feel entitled to ruin 180 other people's day by causing a delay, cancellation, or just a making a scene. You can get a refund if you paid for the ticket. You might even be granted some small compensation for your inconvenience, such as miles or a voucher. But to demand someone to lose their job because you didn't get to sit next to your "honey" is just wrong.


This. People are so effing entitled these days it’s beyond ridiculous. Cooley and/or his partner were asked to move for whatever justifiable reasons there was. Airlines don’t just move people around for shits and giggles, there was a valid reason for the action being taken. They weren’t told.... “you’re gay, get to the back of the bus”.


What valid reason? A medical emergency? Please do share the valid reason with us.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:05 pm

mfe777 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
I still haven't understood if they were seated as a couple how would moving one person help, the other couple to be seated together (I am assuming 2x2 in the first class)


It was, and has always been stated, Premium Class. Not First Class. It's 3x3. Premium class is like "Main Cabin Extra" on Alaska, with extra legroom. The couple had paid for the Premium seating next to each other, and were asked to be split up and one moved to a regular economy seat so a straight couple couple could sit together (we still don't know if the straight couple paid for the premium seating).

If this headline had been "Straight White Conservative Christian Couple FORCED to give up airline seats for GAY couple" then the same people here saying "get over it" would be up in arms for years. Fox News would have hourly breaking news updates for a week on the topic and how religious freedom is being tarnished.


I agree with you that if the incident involved a straight couple being asked to give up their sear we would have laws being passed now
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:06 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:
I would move if a gate agent or crew member asked me to. I really don't feel entitled to ruin 180 other people's day by causing a delay, cancellation, or just a making a scene. You can get a refund if you paid for the ticket. You might even be granted some small compensation for your inconvenience, such as miles or a voucher. But to demand someone to lose their job because you didn't get to sit next to your "honey" is just wrong.


This. People are so effing entitled these days it’s beyond ridiculous. Cooley and/or his partner were asked to move for whatever justifiable reasons there was. Airlines don’t just move people around for shits and giggles, there was a valid reason for the action being taken. They weren’t told.... “you’re gay, get to the back of the bus”.


Exactly. That stewardess or gate agent have more important things to do than determine who's dating and who's two strangers just sitting next to each other. They're just trying to get that plane out on time.


What was the justifiable reason for the move?
 
Indy
Posts: 4843
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:08 pm

I am not buying the story of two people being assigned to the same seat. As a software developer, I can tell you that should not be possible. Perhaps someone picked a seat, printed a boarding pass, and later changed their seats and held on to the old pass. But that isn't two people assigned to the same seat. That is someone using an old and invalid credential attempting to sit in a seat that was no longer assigned to them. If Alaska has a reservation system that is so poorly designed that it actually allows two names to be assigned to the same seat then they have bigger problems than a discrimination accusation. I think this is just Alaska going with an excuse they know no one from the outside will be able to disprove.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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seb146
Posts: 20705
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:21 pm

mbmbos wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

Believe it or not, nobody has to utter an epithet for it to be discrimination. I assure you that if a straight couple were split up for a gay couple, Hannity and Alex Jones would be going ballistic over it.

And so would you.


There is a difference between "would you mind changing seats because this other couple wants to sit here also and we overbooked" and "this straight couple wants to sit here and you clearly don't matter." AS is more intelligent than that. They "grew up" on the West Coast and they know better. In this case, I would side with the FA. I have read three different accounts and I have seen nothing at all to suggest this is about sexual orientation.

Some of us in LGBTQ+ are hyper sensitive. I start to, but I take a step back and think about the situation.


Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.


I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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mbmbos
Posts: 2853
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
seb146 wrote:

There is a difference between "would you mind changing seats because this other couple wants to sit here also and we overbooked" and "this straight couple wants to sit here and you clearly don't matter." AS is more intelligent than that. They "grew up" on the West Coast and they know better. In this case, I would side with the FA. I have read three different accounts and I have seen nothing at all to suggest this is about sexual orientation.

Some of us in LGBTQ+ are hyper sensitive. I start to, but I take a step back and think about the situation.


Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.


I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


Once again, I suggest your read the article carefully. Based on the gay couple's account:

- FA approached them and asked one of them to move to coach in order to seat a couple, who wanted to travel together.
- Gay couple responds by saying, "But we're a couple and we would like to travel together.
- The gist of the FA's reply: move to coach or leave the aircraft.

If this account is accurate and if all tickets were of the same status, then yes, this is LGBTQ discrimination.


As for your "I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles..."

Trivializing gay culture and the quest for gay rights by making smarmy comments about "pink triangles" is beneath contempt. I urge you to examine your thoughts, motives and beliefs very carefully.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1570
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:22 pm

mbmbos wrote:
seb146 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.


I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


Once again, I suggest your read the article carefully. Based on the gay couple's account:

- FA approached them and asked one of them to move to coach in order to seat a couple, who wanted to travel together.
- Gay couple responds by saying, "But we're a couple and we would like to travel together.
- The gist of the FA's reply: move to coach or leave the aircraft.

If this account is accurate and if all tickets were of the same status, then yes, this is LGBTQ discrimination.


As for your "I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles..."

Trivializing gay culture and the quest for gay rights by making smarmy comments about "pink triangles" is beneath contempt. I urge you to examine your thoughts, motives and beliefs very carefully.


Well said!
@DadCelo
 
33lspotter
Posts: 544
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:27 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's what is probably true:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple.

Here's what imo we do not know:

A gay couple was replaced by a straight couple because they were gay.

THe airline industry is famously accepting of gays, so I'm not ready to conclude that this was a homophobic event. BUT MY ANTENNAE ARE UP.

Here's what we also know if Cooley's factual assesment is true: AS assigned two people to one seat--a major screwup that required them to choose a winner. That's always going to be a recipe for a fight. Instead of fixing the problem gracefully (offering the aggrieved some sort of acceptable benefit), they issued them a threat - comply or deplane. So while I'm not ready to convict Alaska Airlines of homophobia, they are certainly in the wrong. And if every one of the actors in this story were straight, everyone here would agree with me.


:checkmark:
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:37 pm

I'm really surprised that a single seat could be sold to two different people in this day and age, and I still wonder if what happened is that the "travelling companion" either switched seats or was given permission by a FA or someone else to move with the proviso that he would have to move back to his seat if the other couple showed up. But assuming there was a true double-booking of the seat, it's disingenuous of the gay fellow to claim discrimination unless something happened besides the resolution that was eventually reached ... after all, someone had to be chosen and if the straight couple were split up they could just as easily claim reverse discrimination. Alaska should have offered some sort of compensation if they screwed up, but even so I don't see discrimination and I agree that with those who think that the gay-bar owner is playing the situation for what he can get out of it in this age of ultra political correctness.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:53 pm

AirCalSNA wrote:
I'm really surprised that a single seat could be sold to two different people in this day and age, and I still wonder if what happened is that the "travelling companion" either switched seats or was given permission by a FA or someone else to move with the proviso that he would have to move back to his seat if the other couple showed up. But assuming there was a true double-booking of the seat, it's disingenuous of the gay fellow to claim discrimination unless something happened besides the resolution that was eventually reached ... after all, someone had to be chosen and if the straight couple were split up they could just as easily claim reverse discrimination. Alaska should have offered some sort of compensation if they screwed up, but even so I don't see discrimination and I agree that with those who think that the gay-bar owner is playing the situation for what he can get out of it in this age of ultra political correctness.


I'm pretty sure that two people weren't sold the same seat in the computer - something else is at play. Probably something that happens regularly in the industry but which was handled poorly or with poor luck in this case.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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kanban
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:58 pm

I am sick and tired of short-tempered prima donnas who don't get their way screaming "discrimination" .. Then jumping on social media to stir the pot even more.. so they get a whole bunch of uninformed yo-yos claiming "there ought to be a law" or "boycott" this company, person, etc. or provide unwarranted compensation. Then you get the sad songs claiming "it's hurtful" ... BS!... With the number of people on the planet, and the number of people flying, nobody is going to get their desire 100% of the time... live with it.

Yes there is real discrimination out there, but definitely not in this case.

Give it a rest.

consider this has gone 230 posts and nobody really knows what happened.. only media reports self aggrandizing the view of one righteous prima donna
 
Indy
Posts: 4843
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:16 pm

kanban wrote:
I am sick and tired of short-tempered prima donnas who don't get their way screaming "discrimination" .. Then jumping on social media to stir the pot even more.. so they get a whole bunch of uninformed yo-yos claiming "there ought to be a law" or "boycott" this company, person, etc. or provide unwarranted compensation. Then you get the sad songs claiming "it's hurtful" ... BS!... With the number of people on the planet, and the number of people flying, nobody is going to get their desire 100% of the time... live with it.

Yes there is real discrimination out there, but definitely not in this case.

Give it a rest.

consider this has gone 230 posts and nobody really knows what happened.. only media reports self aggrandizing the view of one righteous prima donna


So you wish to resort to name calling and taking a pretty intolerant stance without having a single bit of proof to back up your strongly worded opinion on the issue. Why should the couple involved in the story or anyone else on the plant for that matter put up with piss poor customer service? Why should anyone have to just shut up and take it? It is this backwards thinking that creates so many of the problems we have today. Personally, I think it is good that Joe Average has a voice and can stand up to airline bullies. Whether it was discrimination based on the fact that the couple was gay or not, the employee clearly has an attitude problem that needs to be addressed. But let's not be rude and call someone a prima donna for defending themselves. You need to take a minute and put yourself in their shoes. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been discriminated against simply because of how they were born.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:21 pm

Indy wrote:
kanban wrote:
I am sick and tired of short-tempered prima donnas who don't get their way screaming "discrimination" .. Then jumping on social media to stir the pot even more.. so they get a whole bunch of uninformed yo-yos claiming "there ought to be a law" or "boycott" this company, person, etc. or provide unwarranted compensation. Then you get the sad songs claiming "it's hurtful" ... BS!... With the number of people on the planet, and the number of people flying, nobody is going to get their desire 100% of the time... live with it.

Yes there is real discrimination out there, but definitely not in this case.

Give it a rest.

consider this has gone 230 posts and nobody really knows what happened.. only media reports self aggrandizing the view of one righteous prima donna


So you wish to resort to name calling and taking a pretty intolerant stance without having a single bit of proof to back up your strongly worded opinion on the issue. Why should the couple involved in the story or anyone else on the plant for that matter put up with piss poor customer service? Why should anyone have to just shut up and take it? It is this backwards thinking that creates so many of the problems we have today. Personally, I think it is good that Joe Average has a voice and can stand up to airline bullies. Whether it was discrimination based on the fact that the couple was gay or not, the employee clearly has an attitude problem that needs to be addressed. But let's not be rude and call someone a prima donna for defending themselves. You need to take a minute and put yourself in their shoes. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been discriminated against simply because of how they were born.


I'm in the middle. I think going viral over bad service is getting old. However, if you don't stand up to apparent discrimination, it won't stop. In this case, it's unclear to me what really happened, so to say that the employee had an attitude problem seems to be reaching, just like it's reaching to call the two guys prima donna's.

Maybe I missed the video of the incident?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4095
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:22 pm

axiom wrote:
DL717 wrote:
axiom wrote:

Agree with the poster who says you are bending over backwards to justify this. It happened. Let AS deal with it.

Even if there were separate PNRs, if the couple was asked to move and then declined it should have been over. Period.

Discrimination is not rational. It is not rational to do it, and it is not rational to hold it/process it/respond to it when you have been subjected to it. This is why need a little empathy in the world. In this case, AS can - and should/appears to be - listening and taking a reasonable look into what happened.

And no, I'm not of the opinion that the FA should be fired. We should all be able to have a little grace and try to be understanding when conflicts happen. I see no evidence that AS (as a company) and this customer are -not- doing that now. Until then, waiting for more facts.


And you’re bending over backward for a one sided twitter post.


Yes, that's right - I choose to empathize with the person who says they have experienced discrimination. 100%. Every day.


People who truly have not felt the sting of bigotry are “sometimes” are unable to emphasize. Given the state of culture and politics in the USA today, things that once were best not being said, are boldly spoken. I’m with you 100%!
Sometimes it takes just one small thing that can unleash many years of painful comments or events.
I don’t know if this was anti-gay bias or not, perhaps we will never know. But continuing to stay silent with the hurt is OVER!
And there are only a few anti-discrimination laws protecting gay people. Not enough. I can be denied a job or housing in many states.
Fortunately companies like Alaska institute their own policies. Thanks
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Indy
Posts: 4843
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:35 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I'm in the middle. I think going viral over bad service is getting old. However, if you don't stand up to apparent discrimination, it won't stop. In this case, it's unclear to me what really happened, so to say that the employee had an attitude problem seems to be reaching, just like it's reaching to call the two guys prima donna's.

Maybe I missed the video of the incident?


I don't think there was a video of this one. Which in my opinion is a plus. It does get old with people setting up stuff to feed their YouTube channels. The only thing we will probably never know is the intent of the FA. Did the person intend to discriminate or were they just having a bad day and the couple on the receiving end happened to be used to being discriminated against? It seems that the natural response anymore is to escalate a problem. Nobody wants to deescalate. I think it is a lost skill. You see it everywhere anymore.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
VC10er
Posts: 4095
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:39 pm

Indy wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I'm in the middle. I think going viral over bad service is getting old. However, if you don't stand up to apparent discrimination, it won't stop. In this case, it's unclear to me what really happened, so to say that the employee had an attitude problem seems to be reaching, just like it's reaching to call the two guys prima donna's.

Maybe I missed the video of the incident?


I don't think there was a video of this one. Which in my opinion is a plus. It does get old with people setting up stuff to feed their YouTube channels. The only thing we will probably never know is the intent of the FA. Did the person intend to discriminate or were they just having a bad day and the couple on the receiving end happened to be used to being discriminated against? It seems that the natural response anymore is to escalate a problem. Nobody wants to deescalate. I think it is a lost skill. You see it everywhere anymore.


Exactly my point above. We’ve lost civility. And it’s especially noticeable on airplanes where folks are already covered with itching powder!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2300
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
seb146 wrote:

There is a difference between "would you mind changing seats because this other couple wants to sit here also and we overbooked" and "this straight couple wants to sit here and you clearly don't matter." AS is more intelligent than that. They "grew up" on the West Coast and they know better. In this case, I would side with the FA. I have read three different accounts and I have seen nothing at all to suggest this is about sexual orientation.

Some of us in LGBTQ+ are hyper sensitive. I start to, but I take a step back and think about the situation.


Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.


I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


You say flights are overbooked and people get bumped. I am aware this is an industry practice thank you. Usually as a business you should not expect to sell the same good twice and have a positive outcome. :rotfl:
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:55 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
seb146 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

Spare us all from the stereotyping. If someone makes a complaint, then they're "hyper sensitive." This is a tactic of bigots everywhere. I'm not saying you're a bigot, but mind your dog whistles.

Also, the gay couple informed the FA they were also a couple as well, to no avail. If it turns out that all things are equal with regard to the tickets purchased by both couples, then yes, this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.


I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


You say flights are overbooked and people get bumped. I am aware this is an industry practice thank you. Usually as a business you should not expect to sell the same good twice and have a positive outcome. :rotfl:


I was pointing out that AS was playing a typical industry game. I honestly do not believe AS and the flight crew were sitting there before the flight saying "there are gays on board. Let's kick them off!"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:08 pm

seb146 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


You say flights are overbooked and people get bumped. I am aware this is an industry practice thank you. Usually as a business you should not expect to sell the same good twice and have a positive outcome. :rotfl:


I was pointing out that AS was playing a typical industry game. I honestly do not believe AS and the flight crew were sitting there before the flight saying "there are gays on board. Let's kick them off!"


I think that, at this point, it is abundantly clear that you are willfilly missing the point here. You don't seem to have a very nuanced understanding of what discrimination actually looks like.

Helpful tip: when the people who experience discrimination tell you how and why this particular incident may have been discriminatory, maybe you should listen to them or engage in a dialogue with them, instead of continuing to bend over backwards to discredit or mock them.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:20 pm

axiom wrote:
Helpful tip: when the people who experience discrimination tell you how and why this particular incident may have been discriminatory, maybe you should listen to them or engage in a dialogue with them, instead of continuing to bend over backwards to discredit or mock them.


Or maybe accept them as cry babies and move on about my day.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:21 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
axiom wrote:
Helpful tip: when the people who experience discrimination tell you how and why this particular incident may have been discriminatory, maybe you should listen to them or engage in a dialogue with them, instead of continuing to bend over backwards to discredit or mock them.


Or maybe accept them as cry babies and move on about my day.


If you think that's how we solve complex problems in society, by all means -- continue to be part of the problem.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:36 pm

axiom wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:
axiom wrote:
Helpful tip: when the people who experience discrimination tell you how and why this particular incident may have been discriminatory, maybe you should listen to them or engage in a dialogue with them, instead of continuing to bend over backwards to discredit or mock them.


Or maybe accept them as cry babies and move on about my day.


If you think that's how we solve complex problems in society, by all means -- continue to be part of the problem.


This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.
 
DDR
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:44 pm

kanban wrote:
I am sick and tired of short-tempered prima donnas who don't get their way screaming "discrimination" .. Then jumping on social media to stir the pot even more.. so they get a whole bunch of uninformed yo-yos claiming "there ought to be a law" or "boycott" this company, person, etc. or provide unwarranted compensation. Then you get the sad songs claiming "it's hurtful" ... BS!... With the number of people on the planet, and the number of people flying, nobody is going to get their desire 100% of the time... live with it.

Yes there is real discrimination out there, but definitely not in this case.

Give it a rest.

consider this has gone 230 posts and nobody really knows what happened.. only media reports self aggrandizing the view of one righteous prima donna


Nice with the name calling. Also, you DO NOT KNOW that there was definitely not discrimination in this case. No one on this site knows if there was or was not discrimination. So before you come on here ranting, get your facts straight. You sound like the kind of person that is the reason we have certain laws protecting certain classes of people in this country.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:46 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
axiom wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:

Or maybe accept them as cry babies and move on about my day.


If you think that's how we solve complex problems in society, by all means -- continue to be part of the problem.


This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.


Ah, yes - we can only contend with one problem at a time, and those other problems are clearly more important than gay rights. Sorry, homos -- back of the bus!

Crazy idea: we might be able to dismantle oppressive forces/institutions, create more prosperity, and tackle some of the problems you talk more generally, by working together, rather than against each other.

So here's tip two: that doesn't happen when you mock and belittle other people, try to deny their experiences, or try to assert your issue above theirs.
 
alan3
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 pm

seb146 wrote:

I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


According to the (gay) couple they were told by the FA that they need to split up so that a "couple can sit together". Although it's totally understandable that AS didn't know they were also a couple, I think the complaint was that after the gay couple revealed that they too were a couple, they were still threatened with being kicked off the plane.

Certainly, there may be far more to the story. There always is. Like the story about the UA passengers who were denied boarding for their clothing, and then it turned out that they were staff non-revs.

Maybe the gay passenger did freak out but the key point to the situation is how AS reacted at the time once they discovered the men were travelling together.

AS should have treated it as they do any double seating situation. But to ask them to move "so that a couple can seat together" was a silly way of putting it. Even if the 2 men weren't a couple, but just brothers or friends, still no reason why they should have to move just "so that a couple can seat together"
 
ozark1
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:03 pm

As a gay man and a flight attendant, after reading all the "fake" and real news, I am inclined to side with AS. I think the gentleman who is the bar owner is blowing things out of proportion OR ONE specific flight attendant was homophobic. But I also feel that an agent, not a flight attendant should have been involved with this seat problem.
Like AS said in its press release, they score 100% from HRC, which is the Human Rights Campaign. They track all companies and their attitudes toward their LGBTQ workers by surveying the number of benefits they are given (i.e. recognition of marriage, insurance for partner, etc.). This means something to me.
I think any bar owner would have to be a somewhat aggressive, no-nonsense person, where there is little room for error. It may have, indeed, been complete discrimination, but I honestly do not this was. The gentleman chose to take a dramatic, attention-getting way to solve the problem. At least he accepted their apology, but I am sure he is asking for a fairly high amount of compensation.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1734
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:19 pm

D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:

Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree. I AM entitled to sit next to my spouse, and no, we would not quietly give up our seats for someone else if we have boarded and are in the seats that match our tickets.

Instead, it is YOU that are being entitled, thinking that someone else's problems should take a back seat to your convenience.

I'll say it again: ALASKA AIRLINES ruined 180 people's day, not the couple that AS was screwing over.


And if someone doesn’t know it’s your spouse because you’re in a separate PNR, then you have nothing to stand on do you?

Uhh... how about his word? The correct response from the employee should have been "oh, never mind then. I'll ask someone else." Not "move or be removed from the flight." They do not even have to be married for this to have been the correct course of action.

"Can you move so that I can place this couple together?" "No, he's my colleague, and we are travelling together." "Oh, my bad. I'll ask someone else."

See?

DL717 wrote:
Do you really think Alaska kicked someone out of a seat for being gay?

No, not particularly, as I said in Reply 3. As I also said in Reply 3, AS handled this like crap.

DL717 wrote:
You also aren’t entitled to sit next to your spouse either.

Source?


DL717 wrote:
You’re assigned a seat, and you can still get bumped.
And once you've boarded, bumping is involuntary. This isn't 'Nam. There are rules. AS should have sought another way to fix their f-up.


You need a source for seat management at an airline? How about contract of carriage? People get separated all the time on flights. Hundreds if not thousands a day. You’re not even wholly entitled to a seat. You most certainly aren’t entitled to sit by your spouse. You’re just another passsenger.
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AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:22 pm

ozark1 wrote:
As a gay man and a flight attendant, after reading all the "fake" and real news, I am inclined to side with AS. I think the gentleman who is the bar owner is blowing things out of proportion OR ONE specific flight attendant was homophobic. But I also feel that an agent, not a flight attendant should have been involved with this seat problem.
Like AS said in its press release, they score 100% from HRC, which is the Human Rights Campaign. They track all companies and their attitudes toward their LGBTQ workers by surveying the number of benefits they are given (i.e. recognition of marriage, insurance for partner, etc.). This means something to me.
I think any bar owner would have to be a somewhat aggressive, no-nonsense person, where there is little room for error. It may have, indeed, been complete discrimination, but I honestly do not this was. The gentleman chose to take a dramatic, attention-getting way to solve the problem. At least he accepted their apology, but I am sure he is asking for a fairly high amount of compensation.


I agree with your post. I'm not seeing discrimination here. Two people can't sit in the same seat at the same time and AS had to choose someone. Calling the straight couple a "couple" was simply a fact, just like calling the gay couple a "couple" would also have been a fact. But that doesn't solve the problem that someone had to move. I also think AS should have done more to compensate the person who had to move ... a voucher, free drinks, whatever. I also think it's unnecessarily inflammatory to refer to the option of flying on another flight as being "kicked off." It actually seems reasonable to give the gay couple the option of flying on the next flight if being seating together was a deal-breaker for them. Perhaps a more neutral option in the future would be first-come, first-served, although that might be logistically difficult and still not satisfying. Given all this, I think the bar-owner has unnecessarily ratcheted up the drama and, to judge by some of the comments here, unwittingly reinforced stereotypes.
 
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DL717
Posts: 1734
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:26 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
axiom wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:

Or maybe accept them as cry babies and move on about my day.


If you think that's how we solve complex problems in society, by all means -- continue to be part of the problem.


This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.


First world problems.
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aerolimani
Posts: 1204
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:28 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Like AS said in its press release, they score 100% from HRC, which is the Human Rights Campaign. They track all companies and their attitudes toward their LGBTQ workers by surveying the number of benefits they are given (i.e. recognition of marriage, insurance for partner, etc.). This means something to me.

Corporate policy is one thing. The attitude of individual employees is something else. For example, take the Muslim ladies who work the deli counter at my local grocery store. They have no problem slicing off prosciutto for me, but if I asked them, I'd bet they'd tell me it's going against god for me to eat it.
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