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klkla
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:08 am

This WAS likely discrimination. AS as a company is not anti-gay. The individual employee that demanded that the second guy give up his seat might be, but we don't know that for sure.

When the employee said something to the effect of 'You have to move so a couple can sit here' and Mr. Cooley replied 'We are a couple' the employee should have stood down right then and worked on another solution. It's not like any couple (gay or straight) has the right to sit together, but they were already in their assigned seats.

When the employee said the reason they had to move was because a couple wanted to sit there and they said they were a couple that reason was no longer valid. In other words, when faced with the choice of allowing the gay couple to stay in their assigned seats or give them to a straight couple that boarded later the employee clearly discriminated against the gay couple in favor of the straight couple.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1734
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:11 am

Raise your hand if you know of an airline (or the one you work at) has flight attendants deal with seating issues, while the door is open.

Beuller? Beuller?

(crickets)

That's right. Almost none. Especially at Alaska.

the AS FA's all have PDAs with access to the seat map, pax list, status, etc. the VXers do not yet (although it should be soon). There's a lot to this story that doesn't add up and others have chimed in with info from Alaska insiders as to "what really happened" - and hardly any of it has reached here yet.
xx
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:45 am

usxguy wrote:
Raise your hand if you know of an airline (or the one you work at) has flight attendants deal with seating issues, while the door is open.

Beuller? Beuller?

(crickets)

That's right. Almost none. Especially at Alaska.

the AS FA's all have PDAs with access to the seat map, pax list, status, etc. the VXers do not yet (although it should be soon). There's a lot to this story that doesn't add up and others have chimed in with info from Alaska insiders as to "what really happened" - and hardly any of it has reached here yet.


I found this part of the story strange as well. I’ve flown VX (as Alaska) aircraft a few times recently and a gate agent still handled seating issues just like Alaska and most airlines. I figured it was simply the passenger not being able to decipher the difference between a FA and CSA.

I know people that work for Alaska and only one claims to have any knowledge of this incident and the story was so absurd I don’t believe it (even though it completely absolves the airline, if true).
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1442
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Clearly you have never visited the Non-Av forum. It’s akin to reading the comments after a news story.


I know better, and largely come here to learn rather than to bloviate about politics. =)



Good call. Though gender, race, faith, etc are all discussed there as well, and quite often do not turn out well.


What could possibly go wrong. If it’s anything like this thread, I’ll continue to stay away.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:15 am

DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:
axiom wrote:

If you think that's how we solve complex problems in society, by all means -- continue to be part of the problem.


This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.


First world problems.


Yeah. It really is first world problems for two dudes in a relationship not to be able to sit together.
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:29 am

klkla wrote:
This WAS likely discrimination. AS as a company is not anti-gay. The individual employee that demanded that the second guy give up his seat might be, but we don't know that for sure.

When the employee said something to the effect of 'You have to move so a couple can sit here' and Mr. Cooley replied 'We are a couple' the employee should have stood down right then and worked on another solution. It's not like any couple (gay or straight) has the right to sit together, but they were already in their assigned seats.

When the employee said the reason they had to move was because a couple wanted to sit there and they said they were a couple that reason was no longer valid. In other words, when faced with the choice of allowing the gay couple to stay in their assigned seats or give them to a straight couple that boarded later the employee clearly discriminated against the gay couple in favor of the straight couple.


Possibly ... ultimately one would have to hear all sides of the story, Who knows, perhaps everyone but Mr. Cooley and his partner will deny that things went down this way and maybe the reason for the decision was that the other couple had bought their seats first or were higher up in terms of preferred status, etc. We only have one side of the story and Alaska's Twitter apology, which doesn't really explain what happened (no doubt they just want to put this kerfuffle behind them). It would be an interesting legal question whether sitting together is a sufficient basis to sue when one is still being allowed to fly on the same flight etc. My hunch is probably not.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:41 am

kanban wrote:
I am sick and tired of short-tempered prima donnas who don't get their way screaming "discrimination" .. Then jumping on social media to stir the pot even more.. so they get a whole bunch of uninformed yo-yos claiming "there ought to be a law" or "boycott" this company, person, etc. or provide unwarranted compensation. Then you get the sad songs claiming "it's hurtful" ... BS!... With the number of people on the planet, and the number of people flying, nobody is going to get their desire 100% of the time... live with it.

Yes there is real discrimination out there, but definitely not in this case.

Give it a rest.

consider this has gone 230 posts and nobody really knows what happened.. only media reports self aggrandizing the view of one righteous prima donna



Lulz.

If you haven’t done anything to help, you haven’t earned the right to be “sick and tired.” Pipe down already.
 
carljanderson
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:45 am

HWC1977 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:

This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.


First world problems.


Yeah. It really is first world problems for two dudes in a relationship not to be able to sit together.


How, as a straight white male, am I more entitled to sit next to my wife?
 
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KepiBlanc
Posts: 6
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:32 am

This story makes absolutely no sense. All Alaska (and Virgin America) aircraft are narrowbodies with two by two seating. Why would a FA (or CSA) ask only ONE party in the couple to move in order that another couple could sit together—unless the gay couple were sitting across the aisle from each other?

I'm gay and a former airport CSA for Midwest Airlines (RIP YX!) and US Airways in San Antonio and I gotta say—commercial aviation has some of the highest percentage of gay workers of any industry. With that in mind, the fact that a FA would act with discriminatory intent, frankly, I find a little suspect. I'm also a law school grad and some of the comments in this thread show the pitfalls of taking as conclusive Mr. Cooley's account without more facts including the airlines' account of the incident.

I don't buy into the theory that if an incident CAN be viewed through a discriminatory lens then it MUST be viewed through a discriminatory lens.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:46 am

KepiBlanc wrote:
This story makes absolutely no sense. All Alaska (and Virgin America) aircraft are narrowbodies with two by two seating. Why would a FA (or CSA) ask only ONE party in the couple to move in order that another couple could sit together—unless the gay couple were sitting across the aisle from each other?

I'm gay and a former airport CSA for Midwest Airlines (RIP YX!) and US Airways in San Antonio and I gotta say—commercial aviation has some of the highest percentage of gay workers of any industry. With that in mind, the fact that a FA would act with discriminatory intent, frankly, I find a little suspect. I'm also a law school grad and some of the comments in this thread show the pitfalls of taking as conclusive Mr. Cooley's account without more facts including the airlines' account of the incident.

I don't buy into the theory that if an incident CAN be viewed through a discriminatory lens then it MUST be viewed through a discriminatory lens.


Again, they were seated in Premium Class, which is essentially an Economy + product and configured 3-3. People keep referring to it as First which is confusing things.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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kanban
Posts: 3955
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:49 am

D L X wrote:
If you haven’t done anything to help, you haven’t earned the right to be “sick and tired.” Pipe down already.


So what do you suggest, when people buy tickets is a market that oversells, they identify anything about themselves that they could use to whine "discrimination!!!".. then airlines in bumping, moving, removing, constraining, limiting drinks, insisting on remaining seated or turning off devices or any other activity where someone might be inconvenienced would look at the record, or boarding pass, see the PD code and say OOOPs SPECIAL PEOPLE who are not constrained by civil behavior modes.

For those who whine "where are your facts?" THIS is my opinion just like yours..

DLX the way I help is by not flying.. not living in a congested city, and staying away from prima donnas..
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8690
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:51 am

Premium class is standard economy with a bit more legroom, so it is 3-3. The rest is unanswered so far and the reasons to move one couple or the other can easily by based on discrimination or on status or on the date of the booking.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:54 am

KepiBlanc wrote:
I don't buy into the theory that if an incident CAN be viewed through a discriminatory lens then it MUST be viewed through a discriminatory lens.


...and that is the whole point. That the gay men were discriminated against does not mean that they were discriminated against because they are gay.
 
3AWM
Posts: 170
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:54 am

I was double booked on a seat once with AA, I had already taken my seat and another passenger arrived with the same boarding card. The FA was called who took both boarding cards and called the gate agent. I was reassigned and moved from economy to business.

From a customer service perspective these problems are better resolved by an upgrade, however that’s not really the point I am making – that is who keeps the seat in those situations and who gets a better seat is not determined by who was there first but by a hierarchy based on status, ticket class etc.

Most equality legislation says something like it’s illegal to treat 2 people differently based on sexuality/gender/race etc . Providing the re-assignment was done in accordance with the prescribed rules there is no problem here. In fact I would say the FA was may be legally correct not to change the seat re-assignment when they learned that Mr Cooley was gay as then he would have been treated differently on the basis of his sexuality.

I have been asked to move for couples to sit together before when travelling alone. I actually hate this because it usually means I have to move from my carefully selected seat to one of the worst seats on the plane. I don’t believe that you actually need to comply with that request nor that being in a couple with someone necessarily gives you any more rights to sit next to that person on the plane. However, being on the same booking may do.

I would say most passengers would be more compliant to a request to move to accommodate another passenger than because of a mistake made by the airline. This may have been a ploy the FA tried here that backfired. Maybe they also failed to understand the nuance of the situation.

In the situations where a couple needs to be accommodated it’s usually just a swap around between people sitting on their own and it doesn’t result in someone being downgraded.

Anyone who got downgraded from one class to another, to seat another passenger in the same cabin for a seat they had paid for would have a very valid reason to complain.

I deal with customers a lot and when they are unhappy with their experience they can be selective with the information they present. What strikes me as odd here is although there is a lot of talk about moving from assigned seats not once is there a complaint about being moved from a premium seat that someone paid for. This makes me think that the passenger who was asked to move was maybe waitlisted for an upgrade but previously booked passengers then turned up at the last minute. In any event seating a passenger in a premium seat then asking them to move to coach is likely to cause embarrassment.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8493
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:08 am

kanban wrote:
D L X wrote:
If you haven’t done anything to help, you haven’t earned the right to be “sick and tired.” Pipe down already.


So what do you suggest, when people buy tickets is a market that oversells, they identify anything about themselves that they could use to whine "discrimination!!!".. then airlines in bumping, moving, removing, constraining, limiting drinks, insisting on remaining seated or turning off devices or any other activity where someone might be inconvenienced would look at the record, or boarding pass, see the PD code and say OOOPs SPECIAL PEOPLE who are not constrained by civil behavior modes.

For those who whine "where are your facts?" THIS is my opinion just like yours..

DLX the way I help is by not flying.. not living in a congested city, and staying away from prima donnas..


In other markets the practice of selling the same thing twice is simply called fraud.

In the airline business to move boarded seated passengers, because there was a mix up at the airline, is today frowned upon. Mix ups should be cleared up before boarding, not by threatening passengers with deboarding once boarded and seated.
Alaska Airlines seem to have agreed to have made a mistake, so the argument that everything was done according to rules, seems to be out of the window.

What has rightfully complaining to do with being a primadonna? Should a passenger just take quietly everything an airline dishes out?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:25 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
KepiBlanc wrote:
This story makes absolutely no sense. All Alaska (and Virgin America) aircraft are narrowbodies with two by two seating. Why would a FA (or CSA) ask only ONE party in the couple to move in order that another couple could sit together—unless the gay couple were sitting across the aisle from each other?

I'm gay and a former airport CSA for Midwest Airlines (RIP YX!) and US Airways in San Antonio and I gotta say—commercial aviation has some of the highest percentage of gay workers of any industry. With that in mind, the fact that a FA would act with discriminatory intent, frankly, I find a little suspect. I'm also a law school grad and some of the comments in this thread show the pitfalls of taking as conclusive Mr. Cooley's account without more facts including the airlines' account of the incident.

I don't buy into the theory that if an incident CAN be viewed through a discriminatory lens then it MUST be viewed through a discriminatory lens.


Again, they were seated in Premium Class, which is essentially an Economy + product and configured 3-3. People keep referring to it as First which is confusing things.


Economy Plus = Premium Class?. Hell no. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever term Y+ premium anything. Not even on VS which has a separate cabin. and used to call it Premium Economy.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:30 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
As a gay man and a flight attendant, after reading all the "fake" and real news, I am inclined to side with AS. I think the gentleman who is the bar owner is blowing things out of proportion OR ONE specific flight attendant was homophobic. But I also feel that an agent, not a flight attendant should have been involved with this seat problem.
Like AS said in its press release, they score 100% from HRC, which is the Human Rights Campaign. They track all companies and their attitudes toward their LGBTQ workers by surveying the number of benefits they are given (i.e. recognition of marriage, insurance for partner, etc.). This means something to me.
I think any bar owner would have to be a somewhat aggressive, no-nonsense person, where there is little room for error. It may have, indeed, been complete discrimination, but I honestly do not this was. The gentleman chose to take a dramatic, attention-getting way to solve the problem. At least he accepted their apology, but I am sure he is asking for a fairly high amount of compensation.


I agree with your post. I'm not seeing discrimination here. Two people can't sit in the same seat at the same time and AS had to choose someone. Calling the straight couple a "couple" was simply a fact, just like calling the gay couple a "couple" would also have been a fact. But that doesn't solve the problem that someone had to move. I also think AS should have done more to compensate the person who had to move ... a voucher, free drinks, whatever. I also think it's unnecessarily inflammatory to refer to the option of flying on another flight as being "kicked off." It actually seems reasonable to give the gay couple the option of flying on the next flight if being seating together was a deal-breaker for them. Perhaps a more neutral option in the future would be first-come, first-served, although that might be logistically difficult and still not satisfying. Given all this, I think the bar-owner has unnecessarily ratcheted up the drama and, to judge by some of the comments here, unwittingly reinforced stereotypes.


What do you mean someone had to move? On what do you base this?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:33 am

gatibosgru wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I few LAX-HNL a couple of years ago on DL. The flight was overbooked. I suppose we could have given up our seats and cried about how DL discriminated against us because we are gay. I have seen other people confuse their seat assignment. But, I guess it was more because of skin color or gender identity?

Flights are overbooked. People are assigned the same seat. From what I have read, this originally had nothing to do with the first couple being gay. It was simply two people assigned to the same seat.

Two people assigned to the same seat.

What does that have to do with LGBTQ discrimination?

The way I read the pax account, he sounded like he threw a fit when the FA assumed he was travelling alone. I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles so no one discriminates based on us being LGBTQ?


Once again, I suggest your read the article carefully. Based on the gay couple's account:

- FA approached them and asked one of them to move to coach in order to seat a couple, who wanted to travel together.
- Gay couple responds by saying, "But we're a couple and we would like to travel together.
- The gist of the FA's reply: move to coach or leave the aircraft.

If this account is accurate and if all tickets were of the same status, then yes, this is LGBTQ discrimination.


As for your "I guess we need to start wearing pink triangles..."

Trivializing gay culture and the quest for gay rights by making smarmy comments about "pink triangles" is beneath contempt. I urge you to examine your thoughts, motives and beliefs very carefully.


Well said!


Hardly well said! The pax had a fit when he told the FA they were also a couple and the FA retorted move or get off. He is right to throw a fit.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4091
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:35 am

Again, we will never really know the truth when it comes to this particular situation on Alaska. We may never know what was in the heart of the FA.
However those here who seem put off by someone claiming “discrimination” are extremely ignorant to the cumulative life experiences any minority may have struggled with since birth. Sometimes a small infraction can be the last straw (or feel like it is) so finally a human being may feel the need to shout out the rot that manifests from some people’s hearts. Even if just perceived it could set you off- even if it was just a 2 hour flight (which has nothing to do with anything- even if it was a 2 minute flight) I would guess that being gay myself, and my experiences that this moment was the culmination of being called a “F” many times in life or worse.
At an old job I had gotten engaged to my boyfriend of 10 years when same sex marriage was passed - the office financial director was the only person NOT happy for me, he said “what’s next marrying your dog?” TO MY FACE!
Should I have marched into the HR office and try and get his head on a spike? Yes, I should have. Frankly I was just so hurt, angry and stunned I just froze. Should I have said “why not, your wife looks like a Pug?” (But I would never stoop to his level, nor perpetuate the hate) instead I lived with the hurt and tried hard to minimize my exposure to him. But given that experience, the next time something happened and I did take action. I overheard someone else say something vile (using the F word) about another gay man in the office. I reported it immediately- ultimately they did NOTHING and placed the burden on me by saying “if you follow through with your complaint it will basically ruin office morale and that will be on you- more than the person who made the remark.” So, it went unpunished, no justice. Fortunately the HR person was fired not long after, but not for mishandling my case.
My point being: after enduring prejudice and injustice many times in life, one small thing can become the last straw, and today there are multiple platforms to be heard vs silenced. I didn’t really have those platforms then, but if I did, I’d have used them.
Perhaps he was being over sensitive, but perhaps he’d had reached his limit?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1510
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:10 pm

Instead of discussing what MIGHT have happened, why don't we discuss what WE might have done in such a situation.
I would probably have asked the FA for the reason why I should move and if I found that reason to be reasonable, I would have moved (as long as I keep an isle seat). I would definitely NOT go on a rant on "Loudmouth Central" (aka Twitter) and voice my displeasure (I don't not even have a Twitter or FB account). At most I would perhaps fire off an email to Alaska and see if they would "sooth" my displeasure.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:35 pm

I’m not gay, and I still would have refused to me from my purchased seat if I were traveling with my spouse, a friend, or a colleague. The request to separate me from my traveling partner was unreasonable, and if given that ultimatum, I would have gone to social media to blast the airline.

I don’t know why people would get up in arms about blasting the airline for their screwup.
 
evank516
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:44 pm

The biggest error here is probably that this was handled once Mr. Cooley and his boyfriend were seated. I actually just remembered a time where Delta double booked my seat. It was December 29th last year on a nicely delayed flight from ATL-BNA. Granted the flight was short, but I purchased one of those preferred seats in coach for this flight. It was an extra 9 bucks or 15 bucks, whatever. Anyway since I had nothing else to do in ATL at 11:00 PM I ended up staring at the monitor in the gate area and noticed the cleared list had someone seated in my seat. I waited for another round to double check and make sure, then I approached the gate agent. I told him that someone on that list was assigned to my seat. I was boarding in Zone Sky since I flew First Class from LGA-ATL, he simply reseated me one row forward (it would have also been a preferred seat), and the only concern I had was my boarding zone changed from SKY to Zone 1. I asked him if I could still board with Sky Priority and he said yes. Problem solved. Now granted I'm much more vigilant when traveling than the "average" traveler, but maybe scanning boarding passes should trigger an alarm (or just a different beep) at the podium that a seat has been double booked. If you get the alarm, your seat is reassigned. I get that there may be some hoops like super oversold situations or just plain old full flights, but the key is to resolve this before people are seated.
 
evank516
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:46 pm

VC10er wrote:
Again, we will never really know the truth when it comes to this particular situation on Alaska. We may never know what was in the heart of the FA.
However those here who seem put off by someone claiming “discrimination” are extremely ignorant to the cumulative life experiences any minority may have struggled with since birth. Sometimes a small infraction can be the last straw (or feel like it is) so finally a human being may feel the need to shout out the rot that manifests from some people’s hearts. Even if just perceived it could set you off- even if it was just a 2 hour flight (which has nothing to do with anything- even if it was a 2 minute flight) I would guess that being gay myself, and my experiences that this moment was the culmination of being called a “F” many times in life or worse.
At an old job I had gotten engaged to my boyfriend of 10 years when same sex marriage was passed - the office financial director was the only person NOT happy for me, he said “what’s next marrying your dog?” TO MY FACE!
Should I have marched into the HR office and try and get his head on a spike? Yes, I should have. Frankly I was just so hurt, angry and stunned I just froze. Should I have said “why not, your wife looks like a Pug?” (But I would never stoop to his level, nor perpetuate the hate) instead I lived with the hurt and tried hard to minimize my exposure to him. But given that experience, the next time something happened and I did take action. I overheard someone else say something vile (using the F word) about another gay man in the office. I reported it immediately- ultimately they did NOTHING and placed the burden on me by saying “if you follow through with your complaint it will basically ruin office morale and that will be on you- more than the person who made the remark.” So, it went unpunished, no justice. Fortunately the HR person was fired not long after, but not for mishandling my case.
My point being: after enduring prejudice and injustice many times in life, one small thing can become the last straw, and today there are multiple platforms to be heard vs silenced. I didn’t really have those platforms then, but if I did, I’d have used them.
Perhaps he was being over sensitive, but perhaps he’d had reached his limit?


I'm going off topic a bit, but I am so sorry that you had to deal with that. That's just not okay. And frankly, I would have been the one to clap back about his wife. You're a much better person than I am.
 
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diverdave
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Economy Plus = Premium Class?. Hell no. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever term Y+ premium anything. Not even on VS which has a separate cabin. and used to call it Premium Economy.


Sorry about your "wild" dreams, but in FACT that is EXACTLY how AS labels its economy plus product.

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/trave ... mium-class
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:57 pm

toobz wrote:
I find it hard to believe AS would bump a person only because they were gay. Minorities in the US always play the victim card and use their status as “the reason”..


Its always amazing how those who aren't minorities or females are always experts on what these groups go through. I expect that they really believe that straight white man are just superior to everyone else, which is why this group, less than 1/3 of the US population, accounts for over 3/4 of the top leadership slots.

There is bias, open, implicit and institutional against minority groups, and against females. This is why these incidents continue to occur and every time they do there are those who scream "victim card".

Well I guess Rosa Parks plays the "victim card". She should have just followed orders. and with no complaint.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
In other markets the practice of selling the same thing twice is simply called fraud.


Do you think Airbus doesn't oversell their production? Or Boeing? Ever gone to a Gynecologist? lol There is fraud going on all over, every day. However, it's generally considered to be a net positive because it reduces something perishable, in this case, a seat on a plane going empty. Of course, it's up to the airline (or OEM or Gyno) to manage that oversold inventory and address issues proactively.

AEROFAN wrote:
Economy Plus = Premium Class?. Hell no. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever term Y+ premium anything. Not even on VS which has a separate cabin. and used to call it Premium Economy.


It's just a name.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:26 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
As a gay man and a flight attendant, after reading all the "fake" and real news, I am inclined to side with AS. I think the gentleman who is the bar owner is blowing things out of proportion OR ONE specific flight attendant was homophobic. But I also feel that an agent, not a flight attendant should have been involved with this seat problem.
Like AS said in its press release, they score 100% from HRC, which is the Human Rights Campaign. They track all companies and their attitudes toward their LGBTQ workers by surveying the number of benefits they are given (i.e. recognition of marriage, insurance for partner, etc.). This means something to me.
I think any bar owner would have to be a somewhat aggressive, no-nonsense person, where there is little room for error. It may have, indeed, been complete discrimination, but I honestly do not this was. The gentleman chose to take a dramatic, attention-getting way to solve the problem. At least he accepted their apology, but I am sure he is asking for a fairly high amount of compensation.


I agree with your post. I'm not seeing discrimination here. Two people can't sit in the same seat at the same time and AS had to choose someone. Calling the straight couple a "couple" was simply a fact, just like calling the gay couple a "couple" would also have been a fact. But that doesn't solve the problem that someone had to move. I also think AS should have done more to compensate the person who had to move ... a voucher, free drinks, whatever. I also think it's unnecessarily inflammatory to refer to the option of flying on another flight as being "kicked off." It actually seems reasonable to give the gay couple the option of flying on the next flight if being seating together was a deal-breaker for them. Perhaps a more neutral option in the future would be first-come, first-served, although that might be logistically difficult and still not satisfying. Given all this, I think the bar-owner has unnecessarily ratcheted up the drama and, to judge by some of the comments here, unwittingly reinforced stereotypes.


What do you mean someone had to move? On what do you base this?


I misspoke ... thanks for pointing that out! I should have said that someone wasn't going to be able to sit in the single seat that had apparently been double-booked (assuming that's what actually happened rather than, for example, a passenger engaging in last-minute repositioning based on the hope that someone else doesn't show up).
 
MidEx216
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:51 pm

77H wrote:
I’m not sure how you don’t think a gay couple, being asked to make room for another couple doesn’t at minimum suggest that airline staff thought it was okay to move these two men for anyone else. 77H


I think you hit the nail on the head here. I don't believe they were attempting to split up a gay couple in preference for a straight couple. I'm guessing they chose these two, and when he said they were a couple, the employee misunderstood it / saw it as them being stubborn and trying to keep their seats.

That said, there's no reason a paying customer should be forced to leave a seat they paid for without compensation.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:57 pm

Per the MSN report, David Cooley +1 were seated at their assigned seats in the Premium Section of Economy. The flight attendant asked his +1 to either move to Coach or to deplane so to accommodate another couple’s seat request. David Cooley informed the flight attendant of the relationship between him and his +1. David Cooley and his +1 vacated their assigned seats.

For the sake of the flight attendant, I hope he/she had a damn good explanation for his/her reasons to accommodate one couple over the other. People are replaceable and they need to know that.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:03 pm

People and media need to start asking why the plane had to return to the gate in JFK, and who was removed.....
xx
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:04 pm

AirAfreak wrote:
Per the MSN report, David Cooley +1 were seated at their assigned seats in the Premium Section of Economy. The flight attendant asked his +1 to either move to Coach or to deplane so to accommodate another couple’s seat request. David Cooley informed the flight attendant of the relationship between him and his +1. David Cooley and his +1 vacated their assigned seats.

For the sake of the flight attendant, I hope he/she had a damn good explanation for his/her reasons to accommodate one couple over the other. People are replaceable and they need to know that.


Please keep in mind, the explanation may be that that's not how it actually went down. I wish we could stop assuming that either party is telling us the whole story or the completely accurate story. There are probably nuances, mannerisms, etc that we are not getting, let alone the actual transcript of events. I'm not implying that Cooley is lying. I'm saying we don't really know the truth because we weren't there. There could be missing words or pieces, or the timeline could be off. There could be circumstances that played into it that we don't know. Or we could have a rogue FA/CSA who needs to be dealt with. We really don't know.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Cloudybay
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:31 pm

sibibom wrote:
Gets popcorn, this discussion shall be fun!


How true is this statement?

BTW, how many of the people on this thread saying that Mr Cooley shouldn't have used twitter to air his discontent are supporters of our President doing the same thing every day?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:40 pm

Cloudybay wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Gets popcorn, this discussion shall be fun!


How true is this statement?

BTW, how many of the people on this thread saying that Mr Cooley shouldn't have used twitter to air his discontent are supporters of our President doing the same thing every day?


Let's just stop before we start. There's no reason to broaden what is already a contentious thread into something it doesn't need to be.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:57 pm

usxguy wrote:
People and media need to start asking why the plane had to return to the gate in JFK, and who was removed.....


I’ve heard this story too, but find it somewhat unbelievable (and I have a hard time believing discrimination occurred). Is there any proof of a gate return? I only see a slightly late departure.
 
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seb146
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:22 pm

guyanam wrote:
toobz wrote:
I find it hard to believe AS would bump a person only because they were gay. Minorities in the US always play the victim card and use their status as “the reason”..


Its always amazing how those who aren't minorities or females are always experts on what these groups go through. I expect that they really believe that straight white man are just superior to everyone else, which is why this group, less than 1/3 of the US population, accounts for over 3/4 of the top leadership slots.

There is bias, open, implicit and institutional against minority groups, and against females. This is why these incidents continue to occur and every time they do there are those who scream "victim card".

Well I guess Rosa Parks plays the "victim card". She should have just followed orders. and with no complaint.


AS has a 100 rating from Human Rights Campaign. They try to treat everyone equally. Being gay and knowing what I know about AS, I do not believe for one second the entire company got together and said "there is a gay couple flying JFK-LAX so we need to make their lives hell for being gay!" I don't even think NK would do that.

https://www.hrc.org/apps/buyersguide/pr ... orgid=5112
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
HWC1977
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:23 pm

guyanam wrote:
Its always amazing how those who aren't minorities or females are always experts on what these groups go through. I expect that they really believe that straight white man are just superior to everyone else, which is why this group, less than 1/3 of the US population, accounts for over 3/4 of the top leadership slots.

There is bias, open, implicit and institutional against minority groups, and against females. This is why these incidents continue to occur and every time they do there are those who scream "victim card".

Well I guess Rosa Parks plays the "victim card". She should have just followed orders. and with no complaint.


The Rosa Parks analogy really does get old. It isn't the airline's policy to move gays around for arbitrary reasons. That stewardess is really only concerned about getting that plane moving so she can get paid. Even if she secretly has a problem with gays, just take your seat and cut your loses. You throwing a fit isn't going to change anyone's mind. If anything your going to have a plane load of people hate you for canceling or delaying their flight. That doesn't really do anything for their cause.
 
toobz
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:45 pm

Seriously?? We don’t even know half the facts yet. Can everybody just simmer down with their wild thoughts and accusations?
 
axiom
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Re: Gay couple ALLEGEDLY bumped for straight couple...

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
guyanam wrote:
toobz wrote:
I find it hard to believe AS would bump a person only because they were gay. Minorities in the US always play the victim card and use their status as “the reason”..


Its always amazing how those who aren't minorities or females are always experts on what these groups go through. I expect that they really believe that straight white man are just superior to everyone else, which is why this group, less than 1/3 of the US population, accounts for over 3/4 of the top leadership slots.

There is bias, open, implicit and institutional against minority groups, and against females. This is why these incidents continue to occur and every time they do there are those who scream "victim card".

Well I guess Rosa Parks plays the "victim card". She should have just followed orders. and with no complaint.


AS has a 100 rating from Human Rights Campaign. They try to treat everyone equally. Being gay and knowing what I know about AS, I do not believe for one second the entire company got together and said "there is a gay couple flying JFK-LAX so we need to make their lives hell for being gay!" I don't even think NK would do that.

https://www.hrc.org/apps/buyersguide/pr ... orgid=5112



Literally nobody is saying this about AS. Individuals =\= corporations (contrary to that Supreme Court decision...). Stop it, for the love of all that is holy.

No longer responding to the other people which ignore avenues for constructive dialogue, and only post when there is someone new to express their thinly veiled vitriol towards.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:51 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
In other markets the practice of selling the same thing twice is simply called fraud.


Do you think Airbus doesn't oversell their production? Or Boeing? Ever gone to a Gynecologist? lol There is fraud going on all over, every day. However, it's generally considered to be a net positive because it reduces something perishable, in this case, a seat on a plane going empty. Of course, it's up to the airline (or OEM or Gyno) to manage that oversold inventory and address issues proactively.

AEROFAN wrote:
Economy Plus = Premium Class?. Hell no. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever term Y+ premium anything. Not even on VS which has a separate cabin. and used to call it Premium Economy.


It's just a name.


Let us now see, do you have an example of two teams from two airlines arrived at either Airbus or Boeing to collect the same frame that Airbus or Boeing sold to them, collecting payments from both of them?
Have you an example of going to the gynaecologist and not getting the check up having paid fully for when booking it?

Furthermore, in many cases even if the seat stays empty, it is paid for on a cheap ticket, a bit greedy to want to have it paid twice.
 
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:28 am

hiflyeras wrote:

If it was about status (and we don't know whether it was or wasn't), then the FA should have said so. Instead, the FA apparently chose to lead with the excuse that they were moving Mr. Cooley's partner so they could seat another couple together.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20675
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:34 am

aerolimani wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:

If it was about status (and we don't know whether it was or wasn't), then the FA should have said so. Instead, the FA apparently chose to lead with the excuse that they were moving Mr. Cooley's partner so they could seat another couple together.


Or, it could be that Cooley left out the part where the FA said "the other couple have a higher rewards status." So, let's just wait and see.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:08 am

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
In other markets the practice of selling the same thing twice is simply called fraud.


Do you think Airbus doesn't oversell their production? Or Boeing? Ever gone to a Gynecologist? lol There is fraud going on all over, every day. However, it's generally considered to be a net positive because it reduces something perishable, in this case, a seat on a plane going empty. Of course, it's up to the airline (or OEM or Gyno) to manage that oversold inventory and address issues proactively.

AEROFAN wrote:
Economy Plus = Premium Class?. Hell no. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever term Y+ premium anything. Not even on VS which has a separate cabin. and used to call it Premium Economy.


It's just a name.


Let us now see, do you have an example of two teams from two airlines arrived at either Airbus or Boeing to collect the same frame that Airbus or Boeing sold to them, collecting payments from both of them?
Have you an example of going to the gynaecologist and not getting the check up having paid fully for when booking it?

Furthermore, in many cases even if the seat stays empty, it is paid for on a cheap ticket, a bit greedy to want to have it paid twice.


Blah blah blah

The guys could have flown. They just didn't get the legroom they expected. I've gone to pregnancy appts with my wife where we finally had to leave because they were so behind they couldn't see us. I guarantee you we didn't get any special consideration or treatment. The point is, crap happens. Airlines oversell seats because the flipside is that they offer fares that allow last-minute cancellations. It's a trade-off. It's a bit rich to call an industry that has basically spent much of it's existence near-broke as "greedy".

This isn't to say I support what happened. It's to say that your tireless blather about evil airlines as if they are the only industry that screws with customers rings hollow.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:39 am

seb146 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:

If it was about status (and we don't know whether it was or wasn't), then the FA should have said so. Instead, the FA apparently chose to lead with the excuse that they were moving Mr. Cooley's partner so they could seat another couple together.


Or, it could be that Cooley left out the part where the FA said "the other couple have a higher rewards status." So, let's just wait and see.

That is why I used the word apparently. I was merely countering the article which was very decisive in declaring the airline (and FA) to be at no fault.

As to the wait and see… it's very possible we might never know. Alaska's response accepted responsibility, but did not shine any light on the details. I do find it noteworthy that Alaska made no attempt to counter anything Mr. Cooley said. Perhaps that's just the best PR move, or perhaps Mr. Cooley's complaint has some legitimacy.
 
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seb146
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:45 am

aerolimani wrote:
seb146 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
If it was about status (and we don't know whether it was or wasn't), then the FA should have said so. Instead, the FA apparently chose to lead with the excuse that they were moving Mr. Cooley's partner so they could seat another couple together.


Or, it could be that Cooley left out the part where the FA said "the other couple have a higher rewards status." So, let's just wait and see.

That is why I used the word apparently. I was merely countering the article which was very decisive in declaring the airline (and FA) to be at no fault.

As to the wait and see… it's very possible we might never know. Alaska's response accepted responsibility, but did not shine any light on the details. I do find it noteworthy that Alaska made no attempt to counter anything Mr. Cooley said. Perhaps that's just the best PR move, or perhaps Mr. Cooley's complaint has some legitimacy.


I wonder if there is any way to get the transcript of the FA and supervisors or this particular FA and their work record? I think that would say a lot.

Purely hypothetical but, what if the FA is in a same gender marriage?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
VC10er
Posts: 4091
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:44 am

This thread is starting to make me sick to my stomach. It has revealed that there are at least a few individuals that have repugnant and barbaric thoughts on a.net and it’s disturbing. Just a few are using this unresolved issue to spew vile comments. You know who you are and ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
I think we can all agree that Alaska and every other airline in the USA have zero tolerance for anti-gay behavior. United walked away with the top honor last year I believe.
This particular situation will probably not be resolved with complete satisfaction supported by facts. So, I’m not sure there is much left to discuss unless new information comes to the fore: it was either an FA with a foul heart, or a misunderstanding or perhaps just a poorly handled seating situation.
Regardless: Rosa Parks Forever!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:21 am

3AWM wrote:
(...) who keeps the seat in those situations and who gets a better seat is not determined by who was there first but by a hierarchy based on status, ticket class etc.


What is your source for that? I thought things happens like this in cases of surbooking / double assignation before boarding, but does it really also apply after boarding?

I'm very confused right now. One year after Dr Dao's incident, the same questions appears again and they are still unanswered! Could we, once and for all, clarify the following point?

*After a passenger has boarded, is seated in his assigned seat and does not pose any security problems, can an airline force him to change seats, or to deplane, yes or no?*

After Dr Dao's case, I thought that the answer was: No, an airline can't do this. They have to find volunteers by taking out the checkbook. But in this topic, some a.netters keep saying "yes, airlines still have the right to move you, even after boarding. You have to comply". Are they right? Or are they just people working in the airline industry tryin' do defend their own interests?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:08 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Do you think Airbus doesn't oversell their production? Or Boeing? Ever gone to a Gynecologist? lol There is fraud going on all over, every day. However, it's generally considered to be a net positive because it reduces something perishable, in this case, a seat on a plane going empty. Of course, it's up to the airline (or OEM or Gyno) to manage that oversold inventory and address issues proactively.



It's just a name.


Let us now see, do you have an example of two teams from two airlines arrived at either Airbus or Boeing to collect the same frame that Airbus or Boeing sold to them, collecting payments from both of them?
Have you an example of going to the gynaecologist and not getting the check up having paid fully for when booking it?

Furthermore, in many cases even if the seat stays empty, it is paid for on a cheap ticket, a bit greedy to want to have it paid twice.


Blah blah blah

The guys could have flown. They just didn't get the legroom they expected. I've gone to pregnancy appts with my wife where we finally had to leave because they were so behind they couldn't see us. I guarantee you we didn't get any special consideration or treatment. The point is, crap happens. Airlines oversell seats because the flipside is that they offer fares that allow last-minute cancellations. It's a trade-off. It's a bit rich to call an industry that has basically spent much of it's existence near-broke as "greedy".

This isn't to say I support what happened. It's to say that your tireless blather about evil airlines as if they are the only industry that screws with customers rings hollow.


So the pregnancy appts. were prepaid when you made the appointment, and you had to make a written complaint to some complain adjusters to get your money back.

People tend to forget that in the airline business the customer has to prepay everything and if the airline does not deliver the agreed upon service, you have to pry it out of a very reluctant system that does not love to pay something back.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:38 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Do you think Airbus doesn't oversell their production? Or Boeing? Ever gone to a Gynecologist? lol There is fraud going on all over, every day. However, it's generally considered to be a net positive because it reduces something perishable, in this case, a seat on a plane going empty. Of course, it's up to the airline (or OEM or Gyno) to manage that oversold inventory and address issues proactively.



It's just a name.


Let us now see, do you have an example of two teams from two airlines arrived at either Airbus or Boeing to collect the same frame that Airbus or Boeing sold to them, collecting payments from both of them?
Have you an example of going to the gynaecologist and not getting the check up having paid fully for when booking it?

Furthermore, in many cases even if the seat stays empty, it is paid for on a cheap ticket, a bit greedy to want to have it paid twice.


Blah blah blah

The guys could have flown. They just didn't get the legroom they expected. I've gone to pregnancy appts with my wife where we finally had to leave because they were so behind they couldn't see us. I guarantee you we didn't get any special consideration or treatment. The point is, crap happens. Airlines oversell seats because the flipside is that they offer fares that allow last-minute cancellations. It's a trade-off. It's a bit rich to call an industry that has basically spent much of it's existence near-broke as "greedy".

This isn't to say I support what happened. It's to say that your tireless blather about evil airlines as if they are the only industry that screws with customers rings hollow.


See, this is the unadulterated stupidity of the airline industry and its sycophants. in what other industry do you purchase something and do not expect to get what you purchased? It's high time this broken business model is fixed.
 
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cranberrysaus
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:34 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:44 pm

sergegva wrote:
3AWM wrote:
Are they right? Or are they just people working in the airline industry tryin' do defend their own interests?


They could start dropping people into volcanoes and there still would be folks on here defending it.
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