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HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:45 pm

VC10er wrote:
I think we can all agree that Alaska and every other airline in the USA have zero tolerance for anti-gay behavior. United walked away with the top honor last year I believe.


That's another thing liberals don't get. All these ratings on airlines for being environmentalist, pro-gay, PETA sponsors, etc. 90% of people are trying to get the cheapest fare and the others fly out of loyalty. They're not going to say, "Dang, I can fly to Chicago for only $200, but remember that stewardess who made that one guy move seats....". I would actually be more inclined to fly an airline who's stance was no stance on social issues. They are a company to fly people where they want or need to go, not a feelings factory.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Let us now see, do you have an example of two teams from two airlines arrived at either Airbus or Boeing to collect the same frame that Airbus or Boeing sold to them, collecting payments from both of them?
Have you an example of going to the gynaecologist and not getting the check up having paid fully for when booking it?

Furthermore, in many cases even if the seat stays empty, it is paid for on a cheap ticket, a bit greedy to want to have it paid twice.


Blah blah blah

The guys could have flown. They just didn't get the legroom they expected. I've gone to pregnancy appts with my wife where we finally had to leave because they were so behind they couldn't see us. I guarantee you we didn't get any special consideration or treatment. The point is, crap happens. Airlines oversell seats because the flipside is that they offer fares that allow last-minute cancellations. It's a trade-off. It's a bit rich to call an industry that has basically spent much of it's existence near-broke as "greedy".

This isn't to say I support what happened. It's to say that your tireless blather about evil airlines as if they are the only industry that screws with customers rings hollow.


So the pregnancy appts. were prepaid when you made the appointment, and you had to make a written complaint to some complain adjusters to get your money back.

People tend to forget that in the airline business the customer has to prepay everything and if the airline does not deliver the agreed upon service, you have to pry it out of a very reluctant system that does not love to pay something back.


1. You think they reimbursed us for the pto we had to use twice?
2. The airlines offer fully refundable fares, allowing the customer to leave them with unexpected empty space.
3. I never said it was a good system. It’s just where it evolved over time.
4. Crap happens. My in laws flew to Vegas to see Celine. Paid for the tickets, hotel, rental car. Get there, go to the show - “Oh, sorry, she’s canceled her performances for surgery.” Sure, got a refund for the performance, but still are out a few grand for a trip that they then have to do all over again.

Crap happens. It’s not a perfect world. People get screwed every day. It isn’t always just. But the airlines are not alone it making a mess of things or having a poor system, bag service, etc.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:10 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I think we can all agree that Alaska and every other airline in the USA have zero tolerance for anti-gay behavior. United walked away with the top honor last year I believe.


That's another thing liberals don't get. All these ratings on airlines for being environmentalist, pro-gay, PETA sponsors, etc. 90% of people are trying to get the cheapest fare and the others fly out of loyalty. They're not going to say, "Dang, I can fly to Chicago for only $200, but remember that stewardess who made that one guy move seats....". I would actually be more inclined to fly an airline who's stance was no stance on social issues. They are a company to fly people where they want or need to go, not a feelings factory.

What the hell does this have to do with liberals?

Focus, padawan, focus.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8493
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:30 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Blah blah blah

The guys could have flown. They just didn't get the legroom they expected. I've gone to pregnancy appts with my wife where we finally had to leave because they were so behind they couldn't see us. I guarantee you we didn't get any special consideration or treatment. The point is, crap happens. Airlines oversell seats because the flipside is that they offer fares that allow last-minute cancellations. It's a trade-off. It's a bit rich to call an industry that has basically spent much of it's existence near-broke as "greedy".

This isn't to say I support what happened. It's to say that your tireless blather about evil airlines as if they are the only industry that screws with customers rings hollow.


So the pregnancy appts. were prepaid when you made the appointment, and you had to make a written complaint to some complain adjusters to get your money back.

People tend to forget that in the airline business the customer has to prepay everything and if the airline does not deliver the agreed upon service, you have to pry it out of a very reluctant system that does not love to pay something back.


1. You think they reimbursed us for the pto we had to use twice?
2. The airlines offer fully refundable fares, allowing the customer to leave them with unexpected empty space.
3. I never said it was a good system. It’s just where it evolved over time.
4. Crap happens. My in laws flew to Vegas to see Celine. Paid for the tickets, hotel, rental car. Get there, go to the show - “Oh, sorry, she’s canceled her performances for surgery.” Sure, got a refund for the performance, but still are out a few grand for a trip that they then have to do all over again.

Crap happens. It’s not a perfect world. People get screwed every day. It isn’t always just. But the airlines are not alone it making a mess of things or having a poor system, bag service, etc.


Yes airlines offer full refundable fares and that is the point that allows them to screw people with non refundable fares?

When the talk is about prices, than the cheap non refundable fares come up as the reference. With those fares the seat flown is paid, all the same if the passenger gets to the flight or not.
The full refundable fares should cover the few times a seat goes empty through the all over higher price.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9395
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

So the pregnancy appts. were prepaid when you made the appointment, and you had to make a written complaint to some complain adjusters to get your money back.

People tend to forget that in the airline business the customer has to prepay everything and if the airline does not deliver the agreed upon service, you have to pry it out of a very reluctant system that does not love to pay something back.


1. You think they reimbursed us for the pto we had to use twice?
2. The airlines offer fully refundable fares, allowing the customer to leave them with unexpected empty space.
3. I never said it was a good system. It’s just where it evolved over time.
4. Crap happens. My in laws flew to Vegas to see Celine. Paid for the tickets, hotel, rental car. Get there, go to the show - “Oh, sorry, she’s canceled her performances for surgery.” Sure, got a refund for the performance, but still are out a few grand for a trip that they then have to do all over again.

Crap happens. It’s not a perfect world. People get screwed every day. It isn’t always just. But the airlines are not alone it making a mess of things or having a poor system, bag service, etc.


Yes airlines offer full refundable fares and that is the point that allows them to screw people with non refundable fares?

When the talk is about prices, than the cheap non refundable fares come up as the reference. With those fares the seat flown is paid, all the same if the passenger gets to the flight or not.
The full refundable fares should cover the few times a seat goes empty through the all over higher price.

We may not like it but we area fully aware that the fare is non-refundable and that we are choosing to accept that rather than pay the extra for a refundable fare. And this is not solely due the refundable ticket price being too high for one to bear but often because we very much know/believe that we are going to go to wherever one way or another, either then or another later time (as "non-refundable" usually does not mean use then or lose it, we can change the date, though often with a ridiculous change fee).

We do make the choice.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:56 pm

BS. Pure and simple. A perfect PR opportunity for this guy. Played it for all its worth. "Excuse me, your gay, so we to give this a straight couple." Yeah, right.
 
JBoy
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:11 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:11 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
HWC1977 wrote:

This is what 1/2 the country is tired of, people turning a seat assignment into a "complex problem". Most people have real "complex problems" like trying to make a living, raising good kids, caring for elderly parents, etc. Their time is too valuable to care about two dudes not being able to sit together. There are real down-trodden and victimized people. These two dudes ain't it.


First world problems.


AMEN
 
gzm
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:50 pm

Being a former gate agent I have this to tell you: the airport business is all about unforeseen events and circumstances and the improvisation needed to face them. This cannot change, not with so many people flying and so many flights departing and arriving. What is disappointing is this cultivation of narcissism in America: I feel offended so I will try to make you lose your job or business. The world is crumpling but some guys never change. They live in their own dimension. He should try flying Pam Ann airlines where the queen stands guard and she goes: " My gaysss, my gayssss..."
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

So the pregnancy appts. were prepaid when you made the appointment, and you had to make a written complaint to some complain adjusters to get your money back.

People tend to forget that in the airline business the customer has to prepay everything and if the airline does not deliver the agreed upon service, you have to pry it out of a very reluctant system that does not love to pay something back.


1. You think they reimbursed us for the pto we had to use twice?
2. The airlines offer fully refundable fares, allowing the customer to leave them with unexpected empty space.
3. I never said it was a good system. It’s just where it evolved over time.
4. Crap happens. My in laws flew to Vegas to see Celine. Paid for the tickets, hotel, rental car. Get there, go to the show - “Oh, sorry, she’s canceled her performances for surgery.” Sure, got a refund for the performance, but still are out a few grand for a trip that they then have to do all over again.

Crap happens. It’s not a perfect world. People get screwed every day. It isn’t always just. But the airlines are not alone it making a mess of things or having a poor system, bag service, etc.


Yes airlines offer full refundable fares and that is the point that allows them to screw people with non refundable fares?

When the talk is about prices, than the cheap non refundable fares come up as the reference. With those fares the seat flown is paid, all the same if the passenger gets to the flight or not.
The full refundable fares should cover the few times a seat goes empty through the all over higher price.


I wasn’t defending airline policies. I was pointing out that sometimes crap happens. Not all things can work out the way you (as a business or as a customer) would like. It isn’t exclusive to airlines.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:23 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I think we can all agree that Alaska and every other airline in the USA have zero tolerance for anti-gay behavior. United walked away with the top honor last year I believe.


That's another thing liberals don't get. All these ratings on airlines for being environmentalist, pro-gay, PETA sponsors, etc. 90% of people are trying to get the cheapest fare and the others fly out of loyalty. They're not going to say, "Dang, I can fly to Chicago for only $200, but remember that stewardess who made that one guy move seats....". I would actually be more inclined to fly an airline who's stance was no stance on social issues. They are a company to fly people where they want or need to go, not a feelings factory.


The the thing conservatives don’t get (especially on social issues) is virtually nothing. Conservative thinking and ideology comes from a very negative place within someone, and probably fear the most. It translates into a kind of selfishness, screw others or anger and frustration, and simple lack of human empathy. It’s both sad but scary too. It’s why fighting every day MUST go on and never go unchallenged. It is why as mankind has progressed every single conservative social idea has ultimately lost (like segregation, blacks and whites not being able to marry until 1966, Jews and blacks excluded from private clubs, no free condoms or safe sex education allowed in the 1980s, gays in the military, “homosexuality is a choice” therefore they’re not entitled to equality and fortunately lost that too. (However, many still support gay conversion therapy) I can still be denied housing and employment in many states because I happen to have been born gay. It’s changing for the better as each conservative who stands in the way is knocked down. As mankind progresses this too will end. (There are people with there heads screwed on like Susan Collins but she must fight the large fringe everyday)
Airlines know (as many companies do) that having their corporate values in the right place is good for business and their employees. They sell their products to society so it’s is still very capitalist and very American! (I don’t label myself a liberal- there are many conservative fiscal policies that make sense to me, but I’m happier with that label if that’s what folks want to call me)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:41 am

Now that this thread has devolved into self-righteous mudslinging perhaps the moderators will be kind enough to lock and delete it.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:03 am

I took the high road unlike what was said to me. I kept it above brow unlike what I was accused of!

Please take it down. But, I feel good defending myself.
Last edited by VC10er on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:01 am

Apologies. Yes, I admit I was set off by the last comment directed at me as a “liberal” - and fine anyway. But I’m am not defined by liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican or Progressive or Tea Party. What I am is a human being who was born gay.
I love a.net and feel safe here until this stupid thread.
I was tortured as a teenager because I guess the other guys could tell I was gay dispite my efforts to hide it. Called an F daily and once beaten up in a horrible way that I cannot even mention ONLY because I was suspected of being gay. I had a friend who’s throat was slit in a gay bashing 12 years ago. So, when someone says that someone is a “cry baby” if they call out discrimination when it happens- (and we aren’t even sure it happened) and minimizes Rosa Parks peaceful protest- I just had enough.
I love my times here, and all of you, defending United’s good days or talking about a 757 replacement 4,732 times.
I don’t expect to need to have to defend a gay couple’s right to be together (if so booked) here and “insinuate” I’m an ignorant liberal.
I didn’t mean to offen conservatives, but I had had it with one in particular- whom I admit I assumed was.
I stand by my statement that discrimination must be fought everyday and every time vigorously.
That being said, my most sincere apologies. Peace out!✌️
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
axiom
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:32 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
Now that this thread has devolved into self-righteous mudslinging perhaps the moderators will be kind enough to lock and delete it.



Yes, homophobic gaslighters and bullies versus a handful of LGBT people defending the very premise that discrimination could be a possibility. Very equal. Or not.

Thank you for your post VC. I feel you 100% about speaking up and out. Enough with the bullying.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:33 am

axiom wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
Now that this thread has devolved into self-righteous mudslinging perhaps the moderators will be kind enough to lock and delete it.



Yes, homophobic gaslighters and bullies versus a handful of LGBT people defending the very premise that discrimination could be a possibility. Very equal. Or not.

Thank you for your post VC. I feel you 100% about speaking up and out. Enough with the bullying.


Isn't that the problem right there? If you don't side with the LGBT community and say it was definitely discrimination then you are branded homophobic. Most of the pros have been saying it was definitely discrimination while many of the neutrals have been saying there *might* be another explanation.
 
axiom
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:51 am

Virtual737 wrote:
axiom wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
Now that this thread has devolved into self-righteous mudslinging perhaps the moderators will be kind enough to lock and delete it.



Yes, homophobic gaslighters and bullies versus a handful of LGBT people defending the very premise that discrimination could be a possibility. Very equal. Or not.

Thank you for your post VC. I feel you 100% about speaking up and out. Enough with the bullying.


Isn't that the problem right there? If you don't side with the LGBT community and say it was definitely discrimination then you are branded homophobic. Most of the pros have been saying it was definitely discrimination while many of the neutrals have been saying there *might* be another explanation.


1. There is a James Baldwin quote that rings true now, and says it all. "We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist" -- that's when we have a problem, and where you can't expect someone to "just disagree" -- there is too much at stake. I can't wake away from structural bigotry. So you are either part of the solution or you are complicit in the problem, yes.

2. As has been said, we don't have all the facts here. What has been debated is the very idea that discrimination is a legitimate thing to file complaint about.

3. You haven't seen the extensive homophobic abuse hurled at me and other posters, because the mods have deleted most of it.

4. Following 2, the appropriate tactic for an ally would be to listen to what an LGBT person has to say thoughtfully, and to support their calls for investigation and dialogue. Your job is to listen, and to facilitate understanding and empathy. The role of the ally is not to question the legitimacy or the basis of the person's experience. It certainly isn't to gaslight them or use dog whistle terms, as people have been doing here.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:17 pm

axiom wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
axiom wrote:


Yes, homophobic gaslighters and bullies versus a handful of LGBT people defending the very premise that discrimination could be a possibility. Very equal. Or not.

Thank you for your post VC. I feel you 100% about speaking up and out. Enough with the bullying.


Isn't that the problem right there? If you don't side with the LGBT community and say it was definitely discrimination then you are branded homophobic. Most of the pros have been saying it was definitely discrimination while many of the neutrals have been saying there *might* be another explanation.


1. There is a James Baldwin quote that rings true now, and says it all. "We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist" -- that's when we have a problem, and where you can't expect someone to "just disagree" -- there is too much at stake. I can't wake away from structural bigotry. So you are either part of the solution or you are complicit in the problem, yes.

2. As has been said, we don't have all the facts here. What has been debated is the very idea that discrimination is a legitimate thing to file complaint about.

3. You haven't seen the extensive homophobic abuse hurled at me and other posters, because the mods have deleted most of it.

4. Following 2, the appropriate tactic for an ally would be to listen to what an LGBT person has to say thoughtfully, and to support their calls for investigation and dialogue. Your job is to listen, and to facilitate understanding and empathy. The role of the ally is not to question the legitimacy or the basis of the person's experience. It certainly isn't to gaslight them or use dog whistle terms, as people have been doing here.



I’m thankful for the moderators actions. It’s a thankless role at times. Why people feel the need to say such vitriolic things is unfortunate. Glad I missed most of it.

I have a variety of thoughts on the rest of your post, mostly positive and supportive. I’m not in your shoes but I will say that I keep hearing that if I don’t speak out on something that I’m complicit with it. Well, I condemn the people who make the vial comments, but honestly I also condemn the people who were calling for the FA to be fired - it all disgusts me. I’m happy to listen and support, but I’m not going to just blindly rush in just so I can avoid being labeled a homophobe. Maybe that’s a personal issue I’ll need to work through.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:34 pm

The fact is that they were asked to switch places before the FA knew they were a couple or gay. So imho it is reasonable to believe that the sexual orientation played no part in the decision by the airline employee.
 
gzm
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:36 pm

gzm wrote:
Being a former gate agent I have this to tell you: the airport business is all about unforeseen events and circumstances and the improvisation needed to face them. This cannot change, not with so many people flying and so many flights departing and arriving. What is disappointing is this cultivation of narcissism in America: I feel offended so I will try to make you lose your job or hurt your business. The world is crumpling but some guys never change. They live in a world of their own. He should try flying Pam Ann airlines where the queen stands guard and she goes: " My gays! my gays!..."

On the other hand, to be fair, when an airline brags about being "Proudly all-Boeing" which by the association of ideas sounds like "Gay and proud of it" or paints its aircraft like huge succulent lollipops with the slogan "More to Love" allllll over the fuselage, what do you expect subconsciously? And when you come back to reality how do you react? You feel betrayed don't you? And how can you let your traveling companion sit in economy with all those lonely handsome passengers? Competition. Insecurity. Frustration. Betrayal. Vengefulness. But urging others to fly Delta who, incidentally, pulled the plug on Pan Am? No sir, you lost me there.
Last edited by gzm on Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:57 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
axiom wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
Now that this thread has devolved into self-righteous mudslinging perhaps the moderators will be kind enough to lock and delete it.



Yes, homophobic gaslighters and bullies versus a handful of LGBT people defending the very premise that discrimination could be a possibility. Very equal. Or not.

Thank you for your post VC. I feel you 100% about speaking up and out. Enough with the bullying.


Isn't that the problem right there? If you don't side with the LGBT community and say it was definitely discrimination then you are branded homophobic. Most of the pros have been saying it was definitely discrimination while many of the neutrals have been saying there *might* be another explanation.


Exactly. I can see where several people have commented on one of my post, but they have since been deleted. Never got a chance to see what was said. So much for an "open dialogue".
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:31 pm

Part of the problem with discrimination is that you never know when it's going to rear its ugly head. Most discrimination is not this overt; it can involve being passed over for promotion, being laid off first, being talked down to by a superior or simply not getting the support you need from coworkers. It is almost impossible to document discrimination legally; you only have the feeling something is amiss. In this case, discrimination is more likely, because the flight attendant didn't give a clear explanation as to why she wanted to reseat one of the gentlemen, just that one had to move because a couple wanted to sit together. She really needed to have the gate agent get involved. Part of the problem is that in the case of an oversell, people get put on a removal list according to class of service, and with upsell fares, people may be subject to removal before others if they paid a lower fare. If they're going to be selling premium products, airlines need to stop overselling first and business class. It can create problems like this, as one simple problem can balloon into a nightmare.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:58 pm

Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.
 
axiom
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:59 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
axiom wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Isn't that the problem right there? If you don't side with the LGBT community and say it was definitely discrimination then you are branded homophobic. Most of the pros have been saying it was definitely discrimination while many of the neutrals have been saying there *might* be another explanation.


1. There is a James Baldwin quote that rings true now, and says it all. "We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist" -- that's when we have a problem, and where you can't expect someone to "just disagree" -- there is too much at stake. I can't wake away from structural bigotry. So you are either part of the solution or you are complicit in the problem, yes.

2. As has been said, we don't have all the facts here. What has been debated is the very idea that discrimination is a legitimate thing to file complaint about.

3. You haven't seen the extensive homophobic abuse hurled at me and other posters, because the mods have deleted most of it.

4. Following 2, the appropriate tactic for an ally would be to listen to what an LGBT person has to say thoughtfully, and to support their calls for investigation and dialogue. Your job is to listen, and to facilitate understanding and empathy. The role of the ally is not to question the legitimacy or the basis of the person's experience. It certainly isn't to gaslight them or use dog whistle terms, as people have been doing here.



I’m thankful for the moderators actions. It’s a thankless role at times. Why people feel the need to say such vitriolic things is unfortunate. Glad I missed most of it.

I have a variety of thoughts on the rest of your post, mostly positive and supportive. I’m not in your shoes but I will say that I keep hearing that if I don’t speak out on something that I’m complicit with it. Well, I condemn the people who make the vial comments, but honestly I also condemn the people who were calling for the FA to be fired - it all disgusts me. I’m happy to listen and support, but I’m not going to just blindly rush in just so I can avoid being labeled a homophobe. Maybe that’s a personal issue I’ll need to work through.


Thanks. And I completely agree that it isn't fair to see the FA seriously punished for this (barring evidence of really heinous behavior, which seems unlikely). That would do very little to make this situation a positive and constructive one. This is how I feel about learning about and healing across most forms of inequality. Some days, I don't think we quite have the social vocabulary for understanding and talking about this stuff -- but I do think good things come from doing our best to try to understand others. I think that's what people who have the relative power and privilege in a situation can always do: try to listen and understand. That's my strategy in situations, anyway.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.


:checkmark: That simple logic should have been enough to make this a non-issue.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:03 pm

seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:13 pm

aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


Ya, the focus seems to be on what the FA thought before she approached him. The point is more about what happened after. In the end, I think the problem stems from the desire to “seat a couple together”. Had she just said that she needed him to move due to an oversell situation, apologized, and bought him a drink or two, it might not have been quite so bad.

I know from experience that it’s easy to back into these types of situations (seating, not gay). You look back and wonder “How’d that happen?” It’s usually entirely unintentional, and often is due to company policy or error. You try to think of the best way to handle it, perhaps having had the identical thing happen before and go smoothly, or maybe a coworker told you what works for them. Then wham! It sucks. But it sucks for the people on the other side as well.

Ultimately, the solution is to never have seating issues due to corporate policy (ie overbooking) - they’re a no-win situation.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
toobz
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:33 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:53 pm

People in general are disgusting. Look at all these “members” calling all sorts of foul. As a gay person this sickens me. You are the problem with America you drama queens. We don’t even know what happened other than somebody posting their one sided view. wow just wow.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:19 pm

aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


It must be nice to be in a protected class sometimes. All they have to do is say a magic word or phrase and people are expected to make special accommodations just for them.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:34 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


It must be nice to be in a protected class sometimes. All they have to do is say a magic word or phrase and people are expected to make special accommodations just for them.

Let me rephrase… Again, upon learning they were also a couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.
 
QXAS
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Does AS have a policy that prioritizes married couples sitting together? This heterosexual couple was married. The homosexual couple wasn’t. Is this a situation where everything being the same except the marriage status of the two couples being flipped that the outcome would be different?
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:27 pm

HWC1977 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


It must be nice to be in a protected class sometimes. All they have to do is say a magic word or phrase and people are expected to make special accommodations just for them.


This isn't complicated. "We want to move you so a couple can sit together." "We ARE a couple." "Oh, ok." Not "....I don't get it....can you move please?"

QXAS wrote:
Does AS have a policy that prioritizes married couples sitting together? This heterosexual couple was married. The homosexual couple wasn’t. Is this a situation where everything being the same except the marriage status of the two couples being flipped that the outcome would be different?


Seriously doubtful.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2049
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:30 am

If they both had paid for the upgraded seats and been assigned to those seats then neither would have been asked to change seats. The gentlemen doth protest too much.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:19 am

seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

That’s actually irrelevant. He asked the dude to move, THEN found out he shouldn’t be moved because he was part of a couple, BUT DEMANDED he move anyway so the straight couple could sit together.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:21 am

HWC1977 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


It must be nice to be in a protected class sometimes. All they have to do is say a magic word or phrase and people are expected to make special accommodations just for them.

You really do come off as a bigot. Everytime you belittle the gay folks complaints, you’re letting everyone know you’re a bigot. You must be aware of that. #tryingthelp
 
Virtual737
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:32 am

D L X wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

That’s actually irrelevant. He asked the dude to move, THEN found out he shouldn’t be moved because he was part of a couple, BUT DEMANDED he move anyway so the straight couple could sit together.


It is not irrelevant. It shows that the very idea of this guy being the one to be chosen to move was not originally based on sexual discrimination. Thereafter the decision for the FA not to change their mind might have been discrimination and might not have been.

So many times I've seen a person in a position of "power" make a decision and then be so damned stubborn not to change that decision despite overwhelming evidence that the decision was wrong.

It happens. It's not right. It's not automatically sexual discrimination.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:37 am

I am just a bit dumbfounded... people are quick to call this discrimination based on an unfounded post by a customer... yet completely dismiss the fact that the more likely scenario is that, as reported by people in the industry, the partner was seating in a seat he was not assigned in and screamed discrimination when someone showed up to their seat.

Of course Alaskan has ZERO reason to tell us the real story as they need this settled and gone away... because again, perception is reality.... and they are being harassed by an attention seeker. ( most likely case).

While I am not gay, I have many friends and clients who are... and even though I consider myself conservative, anyone in the service industry absolutely knows you do not do anything to bring attention in such a matter... and especially in the airline industry... I find it exceptionally difficult to believe a VX employee, who I consider to come from a very gay friendly airline... would discriminate based on sex.

At this point I can start screaming that Denver airport security staff discriminated against my 1 year old daughter as they decided to test her apple juice for explosives. lol.

Take sexual discrimination out of the equation... what this is 99% most likely is someone sitting in the seat and giving a fit when they were asked to move.

Unfortunately, unless other passengers come out with videos showing what happened, we won't know... and the airline will NEVER tell the truth as it would only bring them more attention.... and certain members of the LGBT community would then go after the airline for publicly trying to take attention away from discrimination (even if there was none) and the issue... (by telling the truth and stating there was no discrimination.)
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:24 am

aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


Yes, but still there must have been some reason to move this gentleman and not any other passenger in Premium class and this reason must have been there before the sexual orientation was known. My guess would be that one couple was married the other not.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:34 am

seahawk wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Again, the guy was asked before the FA had any chance to know he was gay.

Again, upon learning they were a gay couple, the FA could have handled the situation differently.


Yes, but still there must have been some reason to move this gentleman and not any other passenger in Premium class and this reason must have been there before the sexual orientation was known. My guess would be that one couple was married the other not.

So… we all have to start carrying around photocopies of our marriage certificates now? I'm pretty sure there's no policy on AS placing married couples ahead of non-married ones.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:40 am

aerolimani wrote:
So… we all have to start carrying around photocopies of our marriage certificates now? I'm pretty sure there's no policy on AS placing married couples ahead of non-married ones.


Nope. It just needs for it to finally dawn on the airlines that once a passenger is sat in their assigned seat then there needs to be a very, very, very good reason to be asked to move. Once that happens the incidents of passengers refusing to move might also start to drop, although maybe I'm asking for too much there.
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:48 am

I don't know how many of you were ever faced with having to move or bumping off passengers or even couples. It is never a pleasant task, but let me tell you, nobody ever asks or cares about their sexual orientation. I haven't bothered reading through the whole thread, but I'm amazed how many posts there are on a subject that IMHO is not even worth discussing. Somehow I get the impression I am on a Pro Gay Movement and not an Aviation forum ! Could this discussion not be closed or at least moved somewhere else ?
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 am

MaksFly wrote:
I am just a bit dumbfounded... people are quick to call this discrimination based on an unfounded post by a customer... yet completely dismiss the fact that the more likely scenario is that, as reported by people in the industry, the partner was seating in a seat he was not assigned in and screamed discrimination when someone showed up to their seat.

Of course Alaskan has ZERO reason to tell us the real story as they need this settled and gone away... because again, perception is reality.... and they are being harassed by an attention seeker. ( most likely case).

While I am not gay, I have many friends and clients who are... and even though I consider myself conservative, anyone in the service industry absolutely knows you do not do anything to bring attention in such a matter... and especially in the airline industry... I find it exceptionally difficult to believe a VX employee, who I consider to come from a very gay friendly airline... would discriminate based on sex.

At this point I can start screaming that Denver airport security staff discriminated against my 1 year old daughter as they decided to test her apple juice for explosives. lol.

Take sexual discrimination out of the equation... what this is 99% most likely is someone sitting in the seat and giving a fit when they were asked to move.

Unfortunately, unless other passengers come out with videos showing what happened, we won't know... and the airline will NEVER tell the truth as it would only bring them more attention.... and certain members of the LGBT community would then go after the airline for publicly trying to take attention away from discrimination (even if there was none) and the issue... (by telling the truth and stating there was no discrimination.)


I think this hits the nail on the head. We simply don't know whether the passenger who was asked to move had a boarding pass showing that he was entitled to sit in the seat he was occupying. The complaining passenger's vague reference to "assigned" seats could mean a bought and paid for boarding pass or it could mean that someone said his companion could use the seat if the other passengers didn't show up. Because the complaining passenger did not say his companion had an actual boarding pass for the seat, which he easily and naturally would have included in his story and which would have made the claim of discrimination more compelling, I think it is unlikely that the companion had actually bought the seat and that the discrimination assertion is based purely on the flight attendant's error in making the irrelevant comment about couples being seated together.I if my hunch is right, the flight attendant should simply have said "sorry, you don't have a boarding pass for that seat" and never resorted to the "seating couples together" policy.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8690
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:58 am

Virtual737 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
So… we all have to start carrying around photocopies of our marriage certificates now? I'm pretty sure there's no policy on AS placing married couples ahead of non-married ones.


Nope. It just needs for it to finally dawn on the airlines that once a passenger is sat in their assigned seat then there needs to be a very, very, very good reason to be asked to move. Once that happens the incidents of passengers refusing to move might also start to drop, although maybe I'm asking for too much there.


Can be anything else as well. Like booked the seats earlier, have a higher status, the person asked to move was up-graded... Yet there must have been something that made the airline move exactly this person and even if it would be something simple like being the only person with an empty seat next to him, so that they needed to move only one person and not 2.
 
HWC1977
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:52 pm

AirCalSNA wrote:
I think this hits the nail on the head. We simply don't know whether the passenger who was asked to move had a boarding pass showing that he was entitled to sit in the seat he was occupying. The complaining passenger's vague reference to "assigned" seats could mean a bought and paid for boarding pass or it could mean that someone said his companion could use the seat if the other passengers didn't show up. Because the complaining passenger did not say his companion had an actual boarding pass for the seat, which he easily and naturally would have included in his story and which would have made the claim of discrimination more compelling, I think it is unlikely that the companion had actually bought the seat and that the discrimination assertion is based purely on the flight attendant's error in making the irrelevant comment about couples being seated together.I if my hunch is right, the flight attendant should simply have said "sorry, you don't have a boarding pass for that seat" and never resorted to the "seating couples together" policy.


Nobody is even sure if this snowflake had a ticket for this seat?

D L X wrote:
You really do come off as a bigot. Everytime you belittle the gay folks complaints, you’re letting everyone know you’re a bigot. You must be aware of that. #tryingthelp


Some people call it bigotry. Some people call it common sense.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:53 pm

MaksFly wrote:
I am just a bit dumbfounded... people are quick to call this discrimination based on an unfounded post by a customer... yet completely dismiss the fact that the more likely scenario is that, as reported by people in the industry, the partner was seating in a seat he was not assigned in and screamed discrimination when someone showed up to their seat.

Of course Alaskan has ZERO reason to tell us the real story as they need this settled and gone away... because again, perception is reality.... and they are being harassed by an attention seeker. ( most likely case).

While I am not gay, I have many friends and clients who are... and even though I consider myself conservative, anyone in the service industry absolutely knows you do not do anything to bring attention in such a matter... and especially in the airline industry... I find it exceptionally difficult to believe a VX employee, who I consider to come from a very gay friendly airline... would discriminate based on sex.

At this point I can start screaming that Denver airport security staff discriminated against my 1 year old daughter as they decided to test her apple juice for explosives. lol.

Take sexual discrimination out of the equation... what this is 99% most likely is someone sitting in the seat and giving a fit when they were asked to move.

Unfortunately, unless other passengers come out with videos showing what happened, we won't know... and the airline will NEVER tell the truth as it would only bring them more attention.... and certain members of the LGBT community would then go after the airline for publicly trying to take attention away from discrimination (even if there was none) and the issue... (by telling the truth and stating there was no discrimination.)


Finally a voice of reason. Almost everyone is in the weeds with this thread, so busy trying to be "right".
We don't know jack.
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Gay couple allegedly bumped for straight couple...

Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:23 pm

Topic has been wideley discussed and thread will be locked.
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