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Thespiritofit
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Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:22 pm

Interesting article on Spirits next potential airframe.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-spirit-airlines-might-order-154000628.html
 
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FA9295
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:27 pm

I figured that the Airbus A220 would be more appealing to them. Interesting.

I know that Spirit has talked about wanting to expand their operations into smaller markets, so maybe this'll be a step in that sort of direction.
 
9252fly
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:38 pm

It helps to be interested in the Embraer when you're trying to negotiable pricing on an A220.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:41 pm

I see nothing in that article that would indicate Spirit explicitly targeting Embraer. At this point it could be anyone's game. It is just the Motley Fool predicating the likelihood of Embraer securing an order based the lack of availability of near term slots for the A220, among other factors.
 
0newair0
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:46 pm

Hypothesis is largely based on the false assumption that A220 production is going to remain static for years to come. A220 line is not sold out in any year. Ultimate production rate goal is between 90 and 120 per year. Delivery timing is not yet a concern for anyone looking to acquire an A220.
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:47 pm

Motley is usually kinda out there on their predictions.
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lightsaber
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:48 pm

There are three known sales campaigns currently active for E2-195 vs. A220-300:
1. Spirit
2. United
3. Kenya

Before Farnborough there were two more:.
JetBlue went with A220
Ethiopian decided not to buy smaller jets (cancelled the RFP).
Perhaps slots decides for Spirit.
Perhaps Bombardier ramps up production?

I'm not betting, Spirit could go either way.

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ikolkyo
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:27 am

If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them
 
Flyglobal
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:55 am

ikolkyo wrote:
If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them


So it would be for the A220.

However the article says that the plane of preference would be the A320 but delivery slots are lacking. Who knows how Airbus is able to shift within the A320 also.We learned that AA moved Slots backwards.

So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.


Flyglobal
 
32andBelow
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:58 am

I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market
 
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:15 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them


So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.

Flyglobal


A 4th is the 737.
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Samrnpage
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:53 pm

tb727 wrote:
Flyglobal wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them


So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.

Flyglobal


A 4th is the 737.


No. Really? 737 at Spirit?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:58 pm

Again, it's a tactic. If I was an airline looking to buy a new plane, I'd plaster it all over so that Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, and Embraer all get into a fight and offer the best deal. In turn, that's what is keeping costs low.
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avgeekjohn
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:59 pm

tb727 wrote:
Flyglobal wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them


So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.

Flyglobal


A 4th is the 737.


I don't think that Spirit would go with either Embraer or the 737. Considering that their fleet only consists of the A320 family, I think that would be their go-to aircraft of choice just to keep maintenance/training costs relatively low. If the airline is looking for a smaller-capacity aircraft, the A220 seems most likely since it is an Airbus aircraft.
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:04 pm

32andBelow wrote:
I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market

Fill, not necessarily operate profitably
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Again, it's a tactic. If I was an airline looking to buy a new plane, I'd plaster it all over so that Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, and Embraer all get into a fight and offer the best deal. In turn, that's what is keeping costs low.


All the OEMs will know exactly what's at stake and how good (or otherwise) NK is as a customer. I'd be very surprised if "negotiating in the press" every actually got an airline a better price than the OEM was already prepared to offer them.

Flyglobal wrote:
So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.


I assume NK isn't hamstrung by the same scope clauses the US3 are?
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jplatts
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:15 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
I don't think that Spirit would go with either Embraer or the 737. Considering that their fleet only consists of the A320 family, I think that would be their go-to aircraft of choice just to keep maintenance/training costs relatively low. If the airline is looking for a smaller-capacity aircraft, the A220 seems most likely since it is an Airbus aircraft.


The A220 also is equipped with PW GTF engines like NK's A320neo planes are, but the A220's are equipped with are PW1500G engines and NK's A320neo planes are equipped with PW1100G engines.

DL has ordered A321neo planes with PW1100G engines to complement a DL A220-100 order and in order to provide common maintenance for engines on A220 and A321neo planes. B6 has also gone a similar route with its recent order for A220 planes.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:26 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market

Fill, not necessarily operate profitably

Their model is low cost high volume. They aren’t going to be getting 800 dollar walk ups out of Iowa on a smaller aircraft
 
Cactus739
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:28 pm

tb727 wrote:
Flyglobal wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
If Embraer could get Spirit that would be a huge win for them


So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.

Flyglobal


A 4th is the 737.



That would look AWESOME
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iceberg210
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:48 pm

jplatts wrote:
avgeekjohn wrote:
I don't think that Spirit would go with either Embraer or the 737. Considering that their fleet only consists of the A320 family, I think that would be their go-to aircraft of choice just to keep maintenance/training costs relatively low. If the airline is looking for a smaller-capacity aircraft, the A220 seems most likely since it is an Airbus aircraft.


The A220 also is equipped with PW GTF engines like NK's A320neo planes are, but the A220's are equipped with are PW1500G engines and NK's A320neo planes are equipped with PW1100G engines.

DL has ordered A321neo planes with PW1100G engines to complement a DL A220-100 order and in order to provide common maintenance for engines on A220 and A321neo planes. B6 has also gone a similar route with its recent order for A220 planes.

The E2 (and the MRJ for that matter) also have PW GTF's under the wings.
It'll all come down to price and mission, if they are thinking more transcon style missions or are more interested in a larger size the A220 will have the upper hand, if they are looking more regional and not quite as big the E2 will.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:19 pm

I figured Spirit for the A220 and UA for the Ejets.
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:22 pm

If Spirit wants to get into FLL-FOR/BSB or DTW-ANC type markets, they need the A321LR. I guess the MAX could do it too.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If Spirit wants to get into FLL-FOR/BSB or DTW-ANC type markets, they need the A321LR. I guess the MAX could do it too.


Ok.

Any thoughts on this article and Spirits options with the A220 or E195-E2?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:34 pm

0newair0 wrote:
Hypothesis is largely based on the false assumption that A220 production is going to remain static for years to come. A220 line is not sold out in any year. Ultimate production rate goal is between 90 and 120 per year. Delivery timing is not yet a concern for anyone looking to acquire an A220.


Are you referring to the Mobile line? That was the one addressed in the article. With DL, Moxy, and JetBlue orders all being built on this line, there’s going to be a limitation on slots for a while during ramp-up.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
MKIAZ
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:44 pm

32andBelow wrote:
I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market


I think their business model is ultimately flawed.

They pack 20% more seats into a plane than say jetblue, and charge half the fare. They make up the difference on fees.

The ticket as a loss leader thing only works for so long. Because customers will eventually get smart and will realize if they are going to pay double anyway by bringing a bag might as well fly an airline with more legroom. And customers who don't bring a bag will happily put up with a cramped seat for a ~50% discount on the ticket - but those customers are effectively costing the airline money.

So if they get some smaller planes they can operate into small cities that have sky high fares with the big 3. Half of an airfare that's double what it should be due to lack of competition will make them some nice money.
 
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm

They are all courting NK right now. I honestly think 2 types would work against the model of trying to run a more efficient airline but I'm also a fan of the 320 series. I would think the best chance is the 320/220 followed by the E-jet and the Boeing as a distant 4th but it will come down to who gives the best deal in the end. Rumor is that a Boeing deal would mean buy 2 get 1 just about free and that sounds like a good deal to me even though I personally wouldn't want to fly it.
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If Spirit wants to get into FLL-FOR/BSB or DTW-ANC type markets, they need the A321LR. I guess the MAX could do it too.


Neo's can do those routes, well except for BSB. I don't think any of those routes are in the near future though. Any plans for Brazil I would imagine are shelved until the economy gets better down there.
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0newair0
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:07 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Hypothesis is largely based on the false assumption that A220 production is going to remain static for years to come. A220 line is not sold out in any year. Ultimate production rate goal is between 90 and 120 per year. Delivery timing is not yet a concern for anyone looking to acquire an A220.


Are you referring to the Mobile line? That was the one addressed in the article. With DL, Moxy, and JetBlue orders all being built on this line, there’s going to be a limitation on slots for a while during ramp-up.


Airbus is under no obligation to build aircraft for US customers at the Mobile facility even though they say they will. Aircraft bound for US customers will come from the Montreal facility as needed if production is an issue at the Mobile facility.
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32andBelow
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:36 pm

MKIAZ wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market


I think their business model is ultimately flawed.

They pack 20% more seats into a plane than say jetblue, and charge half the fare. They make up the difference on fees.

The ticket as a loss leader thing only works for so long. Because customers will eventually get smart and will realize if they are going to pay double anyway by bringing a bag might as well fly an airline with more legroom. And customers who don't bring a bag will happily put up with a cramped seat for a ~50% discount on the ticket - but those customers are effectively costing the airline money.

So if they get some smaller planes they can operate into small cities that have sky high fares with the big 3. Half of an airfare that's double what it should be due to lack of competition will make them some nice money.

I disagree. I think there are so many travelers that will only fly >1 round trip a year that they fill a great niche. I flew spirit once and it was fine. I found that absolutely nothing they do was a trick or a hidden fee. Everything was very transparent and I got a 140 dollar ticket the night before a flight when non revving wasn’t looking feasible.
 
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:43 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
tb727 wrote:
Flyglobal wrote:

So I see still 3 candidates: The E2-195. A220, A320.

Flyglobal


A 4th is the 737.


I don't think that Spirit would go with either Embraer or the 737. Considering that their fleet only consists of the A320 family, I think that would be their go-to aircraft of choice just to keep maintenance/training costs relatively low. If the airline is looking for a smaller-capacity aircraft, the A220 seems most likely since it is an Airbus aircraft.


So besides having the name "Airbus" on the aircraft and a similar engine under the wings, which the E2-195 have as well, what is the commonality of the A220 to the rest of the Spirit fleet ? They could go for the MRJ, as besides the name, they have as much in common as the 320 as the 220 does.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:40 pm

tb727 wrote:
They are all courting NK right now. I honestly think 2 types would work against the model of trying to run a more efficient airline but I'm also a fan of the 320 series. I would think the best chance is the 320/220 followed by the E-jet and the Boeing as a distant 4th but it will come down to who gives the best deal in the end. Rumor is that a Boeing deal would mean buy 2 get 1 just about free and that sounds like a good deal to me even though I personally wouldn't want to fly it.


That rumor tells us nothing. On the surface, buy 2 [at regular price] and get 1 free is a 33% discount. We know that would not be enough. Buy 2 [at 60% off list] and get 1 free would be equally unimaginable. So - kinda meaningless.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:43 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
tb727 wrote:
They are all courting NK right now. I honestly think 2 types would work against the model of trying to run a more efficient airline but I'm also a fan of the 320 series. I would think the best chance is the 320/220 followed by the E-jet and the Boeing as a distant 4th but it will come down to who gives the best deal in the end. Rumor is that a Boeing deal would mean buy 2 get 1 just about free and that sounds like a good deal to me even though I personally wouldn't want to fly it.


That rumor tells us nothing. On the surface, buy 2 [at regular price] and get 1 free is a 33% discount. We know that would not be enough. Buy 2 [at 60% off list] and get 1 free would be equally unimaginable. So - kinda meaningless.


That's why I said rumor, not fact. It is aviation after all.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:48 pm

tb727 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
tb727 wrote:
They are all courting NK right now. I honestly think 2 types would work against the model of trying to run a more efficient airline but I'm also a fan of the 320 series. I would think the best chance is the 320/220 followed by the E-jet and the Boeing as a distant 4th but it will come down to who gives the best deal in the end. Rumor is that a Boeing deal would mean buy 2 get 1 just about free and that sounds like a good deal to me even though I personally wouldn't want to fly it.


That rumor tells us nothing. On the surface, buy 2 [at regular price] and get 1 free is a 33% discount. We know that would not be enough. Buy 2 [at 60% off list] and get 1 free would be equally unimaginable. So - kinda meaningless.


That's why I said rumor, not fact. It is aviation after all.


Oh, I understand. We’d have less to talk about here without rumors. I just think that sounded a bit empty.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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tb727
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:51 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
tb727 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

That rumor tells us nothing. On the surface, buy 2 [at regular price] and get 1 free is a 33% discount. We know that would not be enough. Buy 2 [at 60% off list] and get 1 free would be equally unimaginable. So - kinda meaningless.


That's why I said rumor, not fact. It is aviation after all.


Oh, I understand. We’d have less to talk about here without rumors. I just think that sounded a bit empty.


It's funny because it was an FO I was flying with and of course he has a cousin at Boeing that told him this and you know how it goes from there lol
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:09 am

jupiter2 wrote:
So besides having the name "Airbus" on the aircraft and a similar engine under the wings, which the E2-195 have as well, what is the commonality of the A220 to the rest of the Spirit fleet ? They could go for the MRJ, as besides the name, they have as much in common as the 320 as the 220 does.

Exactly. Way too much being made about a name. There is no real commonality between the two planes. They will need a different group of pilots to fly them, so what makes the A220 the front-runner?
 
gloom
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:11 am

jupiter2 wrote:
So besides having the name "Airbus" on the aircraft and a similar engine under the wings, which the E2-195 have as well, what is the commonality of the A220 to the rest of the Spirit fleet ? They could go for the MRJ, as besides the name, they have as much in common as the 320 as the 220 does.


Speaking technical commonality? Sure, right.

Speaking MX, parts deals, training? I think not anymore. You can sure combine them. One manufacturer to talk to. And I guess Spirit is large enough to negotiate discounts. They're not small airline getting MX, simulator/training sessions from someone else, they're on their own.

Cheers,
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Flyglobal
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:17 am

Still I see the A320NEO in front here- exceptional the A220 and/ or Bombardier. Any B737 would be exotic in this Environment and would also need a good deal and as well available Slots. Rare in 2019 and 2020 at Boeing as well.

I believe if Boeing would have any Slots near term, then they would use them for other more profitable deals then Spirit where they have to buy themselves in more agressively.

Flyglobal
 
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:57 am

MKIAZ wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I feel like at the spirit Price point they should be able to fill an a320 in any market


I think their business model is ultimately flawed.

They pack 20% more seats into a plane than say jetblue, and charge half the fare. They make up the difference on fees.

The ticket as a loss leader thing only works for so long. Because customers will eventually get smart and will realize if they are going to pay double anyway by bringing a bag might as well fly an airline with more legroom. And customers who don't bring a bag will happily put up with a cramped seat for a ~50% discount on the ticket - but those customers are effectively costing the airline money.

So if they get some smaller planes they can operate into small cities that have sky high fares with the big 3. Half of an airfare that's double what it should be due to lack of competition will make them some nice money.


It's been working for 20 years. Air Canada, Delta, American, United, Frontier, and most recently Alaska have all introduced a la carte (basic economy) pricing. Nevermind EasyJet, Ryanair and all the others in Europe.
 
ytz
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:13 am

They need the A220. This is an airline that needs the overhead cabin space. And the 223 is a perfect 1:1 replacement for their 319 with a slight increase in business class. I imagine 12J/130Y, if they don't want to spring for the extra exit.

Calling it now. They'll take the JetBlue solution. Order the A220 and upgauge many of their A320N to 321NEOs.
 
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:58 am

ytz wrote:
They need the A220. This is an airline that needs the overhead cabin space. And the 223 is a perfect 1:1 replacement for their 319 with a slight increase in business class. I imagine 12J/130Y, if they don't want to spring for the extra exit.

Calling it now. They'll take the JetBlue solution. Order the A220 and upgauge many of their A320N to 321NEOs.

Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.
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ytz
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:35 am

TWA772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
They need the A220. This is an airline that needs the overhead cabin space. And the 223 is a perfect 1:1 replacement for their 319 with a slight increase in business class. I imagine 12J/130Y, if they don't want to spring for the extra exit.

Calling it now. They'll take the JetBlue solution. Order the A220 and upgauge many of their A320N to 321NEOs.

Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.


It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.
 
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:58 am

The A223 seems to have the upper hand, as NK does not have the stage lengths with the A319 requiring its range than an A20N could not fulfill. The A223 has an exit door limit of 160 seats, but since NK likely wants to keep it at just 3 FAs, I could see something like W12Y135 or W9Y140. The E295 has an exit door limit of 146 in an all-economy 28" configuration, but that would eliminate the Big Front chair.

The A223 is what has basically killed the A19N. It's just a matter of time before all A19N orders are killed or moved to the A20N. There is no reason to build an A319neo at all.

Embraer's best chance to break into the US market was with B6. I likely see UA going with the A223 as well. I also see KQ jumping in with the A223 as well as that has better range than the E295 (KQ would be replacing E190s). The E-Jet E2 with true transcon range is the E290, but that's likely too small for mainline operations with the US3.
 
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:22 am

ytz wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
They need the A220. This is an airline that needs the overhead cabin space. And the 223 is a perfect 1:1 replacement for their 319 with a slight increase in business class. I imagine 12J/130Y, if they don't want to spring for the extra exit.

Calling it now. They'll take the JetBlue solution. Order the A220 and upgauge many of their A320N to 321NEOs.

Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.


It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.

Before the Airbus deal, I literally thought Embraer had the upper hand. Why? Spirit doesn't need the range (or at least I perceive they wouldn't use it enough to justify paying a premium). However, the Airbus angle... Tips the deal in favor of the A220 due to fleet commonality.

However as a Pratt fan, I would love the E2 to sell a viable number of airframes (In my opinion Bombardier already has).

But... I'm not convinced that the E2 should be ruled out yet. In my opinion, every competition between the two planes will be brutal for years (how long I see it taking the E2 to become established). Some of those contests, Embraer will offer the better deal. This isn't the 737NG vs. MD-80 where one has such a technical advantage that ended the comparison (range and fuel burn).

The E2 has enough range for UA's and Spirit's networks. Would they accept one less seat across for the right purchase price.

Lightsaber
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ytz
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ytz wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.


It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.

Before the Airbus deal, I literally thought Embraer had the upper hand. Why? Spirit doesn't need the range (or at least I perceive they wouldn't use it enough to justify paying a premium). However, the Airbus angle... Tips the deal in favor of the A220 due to fleet commonality.

However as a Pratt fan, I would love the E2 to sell a viable number of airframes (In my opinion Bombardier already has).

But... I'm not convinced that the E2 should be ruled out yet. In my opinion, every competition between the two planes will be brutal for years (how long I see it taking the E2 to become established). Some of those contests, Embraer will offer the better deal. This isn't the 737NG vs. MD-80 where one has such a technical advantage that ended the comparison (range and fuel burn).

The E2 has enough range for UA's and Spirit's networks. Would they accept one less seat across for the right purchase price.

Lightsaber


I think range, fuel burn, etc. matters much less in NK's case than capital cost and operational fit. Everything else is close.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 7424
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Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:16 pm

ytz wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ytz wrote:

It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.

Before the Airbus deal, I literally thought Embraer had the upper hand. Why? Spirit doesn't need the range (or at least I perceive they wouldn't use it enough to justify paying a premium). However, the Airbus angle... Tips the deal in favor of the A220 due to fleet commonality.

However as a Pratt fan, I would love the E2 to sell a viable number of airframes (In my opinion Bombardier already has).

But... I'm not convinced that the E2 should be ruled out yet. In my opinion, every competition between the two planes will be brutal for years (how long I see it taking the E2 to become established). Some of those contests, Embraer will offer the better deal. This isn't the 737NG vs. MD-80 where one has such a technical advantage that ended the comparison (range and fuel burn).

The E2 has enough range for UA's and Spirit's networks. Would they accept one less seat across for the right purchase price.

Lightsaber


I think range, fuel burn, etc. matters much less in NK's case than capital cost and operational fit. Everything else is close.

What Lightsaber and I are trying to say is is Spirit has a good relationship with Airbus, so that tilts the scales in the A220s favor.
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N353SK
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:46 pm

ytz wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
They need the A220. This is an airline that needs the overhead cabin space. And the 223 is a perfect 1:1 replacement for their 319 with a slight increase in business class. I imagine 12J/130Y, if they don't want to spring for the extra exit.

Calling it now. They'll take the JetBlue solution. Order the A220 and upgauge many of their A320N to 321NEOs.

Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.


It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.


You seem to be operating on the premise that Spirit needs a lot of overhead bin space, but as they charge more for a carry on bag than a checked bag overhead space is generally not an issue. I've never had an issue finding overhead space despite usually being the last one to board.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:21 pm

Thespiritofit wrote:
Interesting article on Spirits next potential airframe.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-spirit-airlines-might-order-154000628.html


Remember NK sided with DL over their tarrif case against Boeing. I feel NK will go with Airbus on this.
 
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sunking737
Posts: 1677
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:11 am

Don't you think an all Airbus airline is going to go with the A220 vs EMB 192?? Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, Allegaint ....
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

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ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Spirit considering Embraer Jet?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:34 am

N353SK wrote:
ytz wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Im with you here. With BBD under Airbus's wing, they can order 70 A220 and Airbus would probably lump in some neo's in there too. Although id love to see the E2 in NKs bumble bee livery.

As for UA, i see them with the A220 also. It is a true mainline aircraft.


It's not just the mechanics of the deal with the CSeries under Airbus' roof. It's literally the airplane. This is an airline that has a lot of people with hand carried luggage. Why would they not pick an airplane with tons of overhead bin space and 5 abreast. Turnaround times would improve all while keeping a similar seat count and dramatically lowering operating costs.

Sure, Embraer could come in with a steal of deal. But EMB might have to sell at a loss to overcome the A220s advantages for NK.


You seem to be operating on the premise that Spirit needs a lot of overhead bin space, but as they charge more for a carry on bag than a checked bag overhead space is generally not an issue. I've never had an issue finding overhead space despite usually being the last one to board.


You're assuming that doesn't change. If you buy a plane with more bin space, you flip those charges. And you get to keep the revenue while improving turn times.

The novelty of NK is that they charge for hand baggage.

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