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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:33 am

Ever notice how most of these articles don't specify the source for their reports?

Sample this article:
https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-j ... eers-78799

After defaulting on payment of salary to its senior management along with pilots and engineers, loss-making carrier Jet Airways has now failed to disburse the December salary to some other categories of employees as well, a source said. The airline has not paid salaries of managerial employees and those above for December, the source told PTI.


Have we heard from Jet employees? Have their unions said anything on record? Wouldn't they have made a hullaballoo if these reports were correct?

Why is it that all these articles appearing in the media attribute their stories to unnamed sources? I wonder!
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:40 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Ever notice how most of these articles don't specify the source for their reports?

Sample this article:
https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-j ... eers-78799

After defaulting on payment of salary to its senior management along with pilots and engineers, loss-making carrier Jet Airways has now failed to disburse the December salary to some other categories of employees as well, a source said. The airline has not paid salaries of managerial employees and those above for December, the source told PTI.


Have we heard from Jet employees? Have their unions said anything on record? Wouldn't they have made a hullaballoo if these reports were correct?

Why is it that all these articles appearing in the media attribute their stories to unnamed sources? I wonder!

Last time we know the pilots did a blue flu strike.

All we need is PR from jet saying it is paid.

.The issue is containment. Jet hasn't aknowledged all the issues before there was a problem. We know they are in default, so additional defaults are plausible. They certainly cancelled too many flights abruptly.

Jet needs to sell and let competent management do the heavy lifting.

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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:49 am

Sell to whom? Jet will certainly be offloading some stake - there is no alternative to that.

The pilot strike in Jet was in early 2018 on a different issue. The sticking point then was the reinstatement of 4 pilots who had been suspended. Was there another pilots strike during the current situation?

The point is about many of these articles being attributed to unnamed sources without any corresponding news from the staff or employee unions. Sounds like a classic PR hatchet job!

If salaries are unpaid for extended periods as is being alleged by some of these reports quoting unnamed sources - wouldn't we have heard the unions raising a stink? When have employee unions not raised a stink? The absence of any reports on that ground are reason enough to dismiss these PR hatchet jobs that are based on unnamed sources.
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alfa164
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:03 am

lightsaber wrote:
Jet has missed salaries again:
https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-j ... -78799/amp
The link doesn't give a good idea of who wasn't paid except for management, pilots, and engineers. Now is that degreed engineers or mechanics called engineers?


According to the link: "After defaulting on payment of salary to its senior management along with pilots and engineers, loss-making carrier Jet Airways has now failed to disburse the December salary to some other categories of employees as well, a source said."

"A source said"... I would think a legitimate news organization would be able to either 1) verify the source; or 2) verify the information through other sources - and there was no further verification in the article. If the "source" is actually reliable, then I would expect to see the extent of those who have not been paid, how much was owed, and other pertinent details. Until more information is actually verified, I view it as no more than another rumor - malicious, or otherwise.

I must admit, though, that I don't know what standards the India media employ. If a poster here on A.net were to start a topic by saying "a source said", that topic would be closed immediately. For all we know, a rumor here on A.net here might have been "the source" - because there have been plenty of them to choose from.

If we can see verifiable facts, I will believe them. When I see only an unidentifiable, elusive "source"... I will not be convinced.
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vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:35 am

Suresh Prabhu, the Aviation minister has gone on record saying privately run airlines need to sort their own problems.

Isn’t that symptotic of Jet Airways problems where the CEO hopes that they will be rescued by a pliant govt.?
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:41 am

vadodara wrote:
Suresh Prabhu, the Aviation minister has gone on record saying privately run airlines need to sort their own problems.

Isn’t that symptotic of Jet Airways problems where the CEO hopes that they will be rescued by a pliant govt.?


Has Vinay Dube said that or is this based on an information from unknown "sources " ??
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vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:42 am

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Suresh Prabhu, the Aviation minister has gone on record saying privately run airlines need to sort their own problems.

Isn’t that symptotic of Jet Airways problems where the CEO hopes that they will be rescued by a pliant govt.?


Has Vinay Dube said that or is this based on an information from unknown "sources " ??


Do you recognize the difference between Prabhu and Dube?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:58 am

Link to Suresh Prabhu's statement.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 399486.cms

Private airlines such as Jet Airways have to “manage their own affairs” in India’s deregulated aviation industry, the country’s aviation minister Suresh Prabhu said Saturday.

“It’s the responsibility of every private company to manage their affairs,” Prabhu said at CII’s Partnership Summit, when asked if the government planned to help the country’s loss-making airlines, especially its beleagured no. 2 carrier by market share Jet.


The statement was in response to queries from journalists asking if the Govt will bailout the airline to which he has replied in the negative. It by no means confirms the speculation about unpaid salaries and the like.

Context is important.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:59 am

vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Suresh Prabhu, the Aviation minister has gone on record saying privately run airlines need to sort their own problems.

Isn’t that symptotic of Jet Airways problems where the CEO hopes that they will be rescued by a pliant govt.?


Has Vinay Dube said that or is this based on an information from unknown "sources " ??


Do you recognize the difference between Prabhu and Dube?


What kind of difference are you talking about? And before you change the topic, show your source which says jet airways CEO Vinay Dube wanting govt help to come out of financial situation.
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blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:44 am

The salary issue has been reported upteen times in same thread. Even the Jet airways spokespersons and CEOs haven't defended the salary issue as much as some people on this thread. The CEO & Jet spokespersons have accepted that 15% of the employees are not receiving salaries on time. And NO report mentions that even basic salaries have been paid. When Jet spokepersons admit that salaries have been delayed, they have never mentioned basic salaries have been paid. If they were really paid, they would have mentioned that 30-40% of salaries have been paid as basic salary is usually around that percentange. But Jet has never admitted that. But some NRIs seem intent on pushing their version with zero proof backing their statements and have the audacity to call every newspaper report as lies. The thread is about cash flow problems of Jet, and that has been proved right given that Jet has now defaulted on its loan and accepted it. Only some people don't want to accept the reality, being more loyal to Jet than Jet CEO & spokepersons! Wonder what "motivates" them!

Jet Cancels 14 Flights As Pilots Report 'Sick' Amid Salary Defaults

"At least 14 flights have been cancelled so far due to some pilots reporting sick. They are protesting against the non-payment of salaries and the attitude of the National Aviator's Guild (NAG) in taking up the issue with the management," sources said, adding that some pilots had written to Chairman Naresh Goyal, saying they were unwilling to work this way.

The guild is a domestic-pilots' body of Jet Airways, representing over 1,000 pilots.


From horse's mouth:

"Almost 15 per cent employees have not been receiving their salaries on time and I am sure they are less than happy," Jet Airways Chief Executive Officer Vinay Dube had acknowledged during the post Q2 earnings analysts call last week.

Pilots threaten stir, Jet to clear salary dues by Sept 26

One more from Jet spokesperson:
Jet Airways fails to pay December salary to senior management, pilots

When contacted, a Jet Airways spokesperson did not give a direct reply.

"Jet Airways would like to clarify that except for informed groups, all salary payments are up to date," the spokesperson said, without elaborating on who falls in the "informed groups".
...


From Dec 06:
Jet Airways pilots get their salary schedule

The airline has assured the pilots that it will pay 25% of the October salary on 6 December and 50% later in the month. The remaining 25% will be paid in January.

“The management has assured us that 25% of October salary and 75% of November salary will be paid during January 2019, while 25% of November salary, along with 100% December salary, and 25% of January salary will be paid in February 2019,” the person said.

“Meanwhile, the management has also said that it will disburse 75% of January and 100% of February salary in March 2019. The full March salary will be paid in April, when salary will become current,” the person said.

...
“This week, the company has remitted the final tranche of the pending September salary and 25% of October salary for the remaining 15% of its employees,” the spokesperson added.


Jet Airways salary issue: After pilots, engineers, more employees hit by pay default

“We generally get our salary on the 1st of (every) month. Last month, the airline had paid to all employees except senior management, pilots and engineers on time. “But this time (September), they have failed to pay even to other categories of employees such as manager and above levels,” the source said.

The source said the employees in A1-A5, O2 and O3 grade, or whose salaries are up to Rs 75,000 per month, were paid on October 1, while the rest of the staffers in the M2, M3, E1 and above grades have not been paid yet. A query sent to Jet Airways on the issue did not elicit a written response.


Jet managers yet to receive Dec salaries; airline says payments cleared

However, a few hours later, the email was recalled. The airline claimed there was no delay. “Jet Airways would like to clarify that except for the informed groups, all salary payments are up to date,” the airline said in response to a query.

Sources at the airline said the ground staff and cabin crew have already got their December 2018 salaries. Top executives, pilots and engineers are yet to receive 25 per cent of their October 2018 salary. They have been assured payment in January this year.


The airline said last month salary payments would normalise by April this year, and pilots, engineers and senior management would get their March salary in full, in April.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:41 pm

It is clear that Jet is having major Working Capital issues. That said, I agree with people who say that the doom and gloom on this thread is a bit of a joke. People throw around words like “bankrupt” with the intention to imply Jet is about to cease operations (using the logical interpretation on an english word). In reality a company that has working capital issues is far from ceasing operations. Even an airline in the US that files for bankruptcy protection is not necessarily bankrupt. Jet seems to be trying to right size their operations by stopping p2p flying that doesn’t make money and concentrating on their BOM hub (and DEL/BLR). Aside from those on this forum that think every major city in India should have flights to a slew of cities, Jet’s approach matches what more airlines around the world do.

Frpm a consumer pov, nothing at Jet seems to have changed. My AMS-BOM-AMS flights in December on Jet J class were totally full and well operated. Staff was attentive both on the ground and in the air (boarding at BOM was by zones being actively managed by staff and ropes). No indication of disgruntle stuff or cost cutting (other than no amenity kit other than socks and eye shades - I got lounge access at BOM and AMS). For all practical purposes Jet functions like a proper global airline (I put Jet slightly above AF/KL in service and J product but below DL). Jet just launched MAN-BOM (in close collaboration with Virgin) and now seems to be launching another LHR-DEL (again assume in close collaboration with Virgin and a slot from KL/AF/VS). So again while Jet is not in great shape, saying it is going to hell seems off.

Two things I don’t get - (1) what is wrong with Goyal. Why won't he just cash out and retire already. (2) DL/AF/KL/VS all seem to really value their relationship with Jet. Can’t they resolve these working capital issues for Jet?
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:01 pm

1. Typical family led business behaviour, not limited to 9W. After having put in their blood and sweat, it’s diffi to hand over controlling stake to someone else. They want to hang on till the end, believiythey are beat suited to run the company as they are involved from start. It’s difficult for them to realise company value erodes for every single day they retain control.

2. It is related to 1. No one wants to throw good money after bad. They want management changes who will right the ship. What is the guarantee that things will change if EY/Sky team puts in more money? And for a company having negative net worth?

No one is saying 9W will fold. If Liam issues don’t get sorted out within six months, IBC code will kick, a resolution professional will come in and company auctioned off. Maybe Tata’s or a EY combine can pick up the company on the cheap? Goyal will be pushed out and companies can pick up stake at a lesser price? Let’s see what happens
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:29 pm

Ownership and management are separate things unless owners are meddling with day to day operations.
There is no evidence NG is creating any hurdles for Dube.

As an owner, NG is not able to bring WC to the table, definitely a failure.

RBI rules make it impossible for a foreign entity to give WC loans to an Indian registered carrier. EY not having money is myth coined by another airline which wants EY to fold.
Same RBI rules make it difficult for DL to help 9W..

With such a low stock value DL or EY has to take over 100% to infuse $350Million(official estimate) required funds, so no question of $750M(a.net estimates)
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:23 pm

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:

Has Vinay Dube said that or is this based on an information from unknown "sources " ??


Do you recognize the difference between Prabhu and Dube?


What kind of difference are you talking about? And before you change the topic, show your source which says jet airways CEO Vinay Dube wanting govt help to come out of financial situation.


Is there a difference between NG and Dubey?

I hardly doubt it was Dubey that Prabhu was referring to.
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:26 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
It is clear that Jet is having major Working Capital issues. That said, I agree with people who say that the doom and gloom on this thread is a bit of a joke.

Aside from those on this forum that think every major city in India should have flights to a slew of cities, Jet’s approach matches what more airlines around the world do.


Airlines are a very capital intensive business. As u acknowledged 9W has a bit of a problem.

Their biggest problem is the latter. They seem to have run out of places to fly.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:53 pm

vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Do you recognize the difference between Prabhu and Dube?


What kind of difference are you talking about? And before you change the topic, show your source which says jet airways CEO Vinay Dube wanting govt help to come out of financial situation.


Is there a difference between NG and Dubey?

I hardly doubt it was Dubey that Prabhu was referring to.


In your original post, you'd clearly mentioned CEO of jet airways who is Vinay Dube. You didn't mention NG.
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:45 pm

Jet passenger numbers are down about 10%:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.moneycon ... 1.html/amp

This cannot be helping revenue. Jet needs to stop being a victim and get control before this spirals out of control.

I find it interesting SpiceJet know carries about as many people as Jet, of course at lower yield.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Jet passenger numbers are down about 10%:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.moneycon ... 1.html/amp

This cannot be helping revenue. Jet needs to stop being a victim and get control before this spirals out of control.

I find it interesting SpiceJet know carries about as many people as Jet, of course at lower yield.


Whether this helps revenues or not will be known in this quarter results
Jet is undergoing a major network restructuring and thus, we will see them downsize capacity temporarily.
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:09 pm

binayak wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jet passenger numbers are down about 10%:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.moneycon ... 1.html/amp

This cannot be helping revenue. Jet needs to stop being a victim and get control before this spirals out of control.

I find it interesting SpiceJet know carries about as many people as Jet, of course at lower yield.


Whether this helps revenues or not will be known in this quarter results
Jet is undergoing a major network restructuring and thus, we will see them downsize capacity temporarily.

There are enough leading indicators to show Jet is in a loss. If they have 10% fewer passengers and only day 6% less revenue but 10% lower costs, that is good.

But what indicators do you see to show Jet has improved yield or cut costs faster than route closures?

My guess is a yield deterioration per passenger carried due to missed flights. So I predict revenue is down 12% to 15% while costs are down 6% to 8%.

If you have a better estimate, please let us know. Cash flow indications are poor. In other words, indicators show costs exceeded revenue (hence this thread).

The opaque nature of Indian companies makes financial trouble facinating.

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blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:05 am

Two different information on the lenders meet yesterday. While Business Standard (behind paywall) talks of SBI converting debt to equity, LiveMint talks about EY and 9W infusing $450 million equity and SBI providing another $450 million loan. LiveMint speculates about EY taking more share. Both are unanimous on Goyal's share going below 51%. Actual facts might be somewhere in between with SBI converting part debt to equity while EY picking up more stakes.

Banks propose $900 million turnaround plan for Jet Airways

Local lenders to Jet Airways (India) Ltd, led by State Bank of India (SBI), on Tuesday proposed a $900 million resolution plan, comprising fresh equity infusion and restructuring of $450 million of its loans, two people directly aware of the development said. The Jet Airways’ turnaround plan, if approved by all stakeholders, will trigger a change in Jet Airways’ shareholding, with founder chairman Naresh Goyal’s stake falling below the current 51%.
...
“While the finer details are still being worked upon, the broader contours entail that Naresh Goyal and Etihad will together infuse $450 million in the company, while the Indian lenders will restructure another $450 million of the airline’s debt, which is up for maturity between now and March this year,” said one of the two people cited earlier.

“The final plan will be put in place by the end of January and the lenders are hopeful that the resolution plan will be in force by 31 March this year, which is well before the 180-day period under the Reserve Bank of India’s (RBI’s) 12 February circular,” said the first person cited earlier.
....
“There is a possibility that Goyal may cede operational control to Etihad, which can increase its stake to 49% under the current regulation,” said the first person cited earlier. Requests for comments sent to Jet Airways and SBI remained unanswered until publishing of this story.
...



Lenders want Goyal to quit Jet's board; SBI gets ready to pick up stake

While bankers met top executives of Jet on Tuesday to discuss the financial state of the airline and how loans of over Rs 8,000 crore could be recast, it is learnt that SBI could possibly consider converting its debt to equity in the Goyal-led company.
...
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:34 am

And a third report by Economic Times. Looks like the only common theme is that Naresh Goyal might have to sell stake and infuse some equity into the company, which is what many have expected for a long time now.

No new loan to Jet Airways till viability report: Lenders

The lenders, led by SBI NSE -0.54 % , will not release cash until they have a look at the
forensic audit report by EY on Jet’s business viability. Jet, which is in loss, is under
pressure to raise funds before it is classified as a non-performing asset (NPA).
The first option is for Jet’s founder-chairman Naresh Goyal to sell stake in the carrier
before lenders initiate bankruptcy proceedings against it.
...
The second option for lenders is to initiate insolvency proceedings against Jet once the
loan becomes an NPA. If a company doesn’t repay loans within 90 days, then it is
categorised as an NPA, as under current rules.
...
The third option is to restructure the loans in agreement with the lenders. This will require
Goyal to sell assets and cut costs. It will also require conversion of debt into equity as cash
flows might not be enough to service the loans. However, actual business viability will be
known only after EY submits its forensic report, the lenders said.
...
The RBI has also come out with guidelines for resolution of stressed assets. Under this,
once a company defaults on its loan, lenders have to get together and agree on a
resolution plan for the residual debt. This resolution plan has to be rated as viable by an
independent credit rating agency before it can be approved. Bankers said that given the
trouble that they have landed into with Kingfisher Airlines, no fresh credit would be
approved without completion of this process.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:43 am

Some more details emerging on the proposed bailout plan for Jet:

Jet Airways: Lenders offer Rs 2,500 crore resolution plan

Sources in the know of development told FE that if the resolution plan gets approved by the lenders, Jet Airways promoter-chairman Naresh Goyal’s current 51% equity in the company will get diluted and come to below 20%. According to the contours of the proposal by the lenders, Jet and Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways, which currently has a 24% stake in the carrier would be required to infuse Rs 1,500 crore into the airline. The lenders on their part will restructure loans worth Rs 600 crore and Goyal in his personal capacity would be required to bring in Rs 400 crore.

...
With this, Etihad’s stake would rise to 30% from the existing 24% and the debt restructuring by the lenders, by converting a part of debt into equity and some fresh funds, would give them a stake of around 40%. Sources said that since the conversion of debt into equity will be below par, there will be a significant dilution of the existing shareholders’.

Image

 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:32 am

Jet is asking lenders for time till Sept to clear debt dues as per Reuters.


Jet Airways proposes late debt repayments to creditors - document

In a presentation slide from the meeting with lenders on Tuesday seen by Reuters, Jet proposed a "resolution plan" that would involve making payments on loans originally due in December, January and February in several tranches between Mar. 31 and Sept. 30.

"The management is taking every effort to ensure that the arrears accumulated until now do not grow," the slide said. "Jet Airways shall be current on its payments for services beyond 01-Apr-2019."

...
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 am

One 73G in Jet fleet seems to have left the fleet. VT-JGY was being prepped for exit day before.

737MAX8 fleet seems to be flying as usual. JXC and JXE are both active. Rumors of their reposession are baseless.

Jet needs 4 73G's to fly to some stations in their network like RAJ and IXL. Are they withdrawing from these stations? Can 737MAX8 operate to these stations without load penalty?
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:17 am

BawliBooch wrote:
One 73G in Jet fleet seems to have left the fleet. VT-JGY was being prepped for exit day before.

737MAX8 fleet seems to be flying as usual. JXC and JXE are both active. Rumors of their reposession are baseless.

Jet needs 4 73G's to fly to some stations in their network like RAJ and IXL. Are they withdrawing from these stations? Can 737MAX8 operate to these stations without load penalty?

It looks like lenders are getting ready to repossess aircraft:

“Jet has been delinquent for many months. Nobody wants to get in a situation where the problems worsen and it becomes even more difficult to take out aircraft,” one of the people said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1P50V9

It is best if the handover is controlled.

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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:09 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
... Rumors of their reposession are baseless.


Read that lessors cannot repo within 270 days from default declaration, according to new Indian bankruptcy law. Is it true? That would a bummer to Cape Town loan sharks.

9W should return at least 25x737 classics to cut costs and improve utilization.
 
bennett123
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:39 pm

One more thing for the lessors to factor in.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
... Rumors of their reposession are baseless.


Read that lessors cannot repo within 270 days from default declaration, according to new Indian bankruptcy law. Is it true? That would a bummer to Cape Town loan sharks.

9W should return at least 25x737 classics to cut costs and improve utilization.

The bummer will be to Indian airlines trying to lease. A leasing company must price in risk. Since India just put in a use for free for 270 days, they will have to increase their deposits just as after the Kingfisher bankruptcy.

Loan sharks? From what I can tell Jet received good deals. If a bank has too much risk, they loan elsewhere, even in different industries. By no means are investors locked into funding aircraft. When they have a bad investment, they learn from their mistakes (or they are just broke and that is that).

Indigo prepays enough that this won't effect them. All other Indian airlines will suffer worse lease terms. :(

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P1aneMad
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
... Rumors of their reposession are baseless.


Read that lessors cannot repo within 270 days from default declaration, according to new Indian bankruptcy law. Is it true? That would a bummer to Cape Town loan sharks.

9W should return at least 25x737 classics to cut costs and improve utilization.

Seriously now?
Loan sharks is how you describe lessors who are not getting paid their dues?
While they are obligated to continue paying their financiers, banks etc. for the money they got to buy these 737s from Boeing in the first place?
I truly hope this scam artist's attitude is only representative of yourself and not of the entire country of India...
SMFH
 
jbs2886
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:44 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
... Rumors of their reposession are baseless.


Read that lessors cannot repo within 270 days from default declaration, according to new Indian bankruptcy law. Is it true? That would a bummer to Cape Town loan sharks.

9W should return at least 25x737 classics to cut costs and improve utilization.


Considering 9W doesn’t have any “737 classics” that may be difficult.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:34 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Seriously now?
Loan sharks is how you describe lessors who are not getting paid their dues?
While they are obligated to continue paying their financiers, banks etc. for the money they got to buy these 737s from Boeing in the first place?
I truly hope this scam artist's attitude is only representative of yourself and not of the entire country of India...
SMFH


For starters, I came across the 270 days number on Indian press, not a reliable source. I was looking for a confirmation, hence the question. It could be just human intelligence collected by janitors/busboys and passed on to high-school dropout journalists who have access to Newswire/AP/Reuters. You be the judge based on how information is collected in India.

There are several 737s delivered before 2007, I doubt lessors are still paying anybody on those. 9W shouldn't waste money on MX or lease payments on those. Let them take those back.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1097
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Seriously now?
Loan sharks is how you describe lessors who are not getting paid their dues?
While they are obligated to continue paying their financiers, banks etc. for the money they got to buy these 737s from Boeing in the first place?
I truly hope this scam artist's attitude is only representative of yourself and not of the entire country of India...
SMFH


For starters, I came across the 270 days number on Indian press, not a reliable source. I was looking for a confirmation, hence the question. It could be just human intelligence collected by janitors/busboys and passed on to high-school dropout journalists who have access to Newswire/AP/Reuters. You be the judge based on how information is collected in India.

There are several 737s delivered before 2007, I doubt lessors are still paying anybody on those. 9W shouldn't waste money on MX or lease payments on those. Let them take those back.

Leasors will still be paying off these aircraft, even if they are using the specific aircraft and lease as security to fund other new aircraft acquisitions and leases.

Even the US3 provide lenders with specific and floating charges over aircraft older than 10 years for specific purposes and working capital respectively.

Based on earlier posts from those claiming or purporting to be in the know, it seems likely financial covenants associated with these leases were breached last year. Common practice, where leasors willing, is not to forgive the breaches, but to start the notice period, at the same time trying to work with the leasee.

In most cases, financiers and leasors work very co-operatively together, going to extreme lengths to keep leasees in business, providing directors and senior management are listening, and taking steps to rectify the position (injecting more capital, cost reduction, going concern sale, etc).

I've been involved many times in such actions, on behalf of financiers and leasors, where we walk into a creditors briefing with major exposure, and walk out with even more, as small lenders threaten to take unilateral action, which would prevent the client from re-structuring. The major lenders end up buying out the smaller players, and sometimes bigger ones (US funders often lack the patience to work with foreign clients in distress).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:19 am

smartplane wrote:
In most cases, financiers and leasors work very co-operatively together, going to extreme lengths to keep leasees in business, providing directors and senior management are listening, and taking steps to rectify the position (injecting more capital, cost reduction, going concern sale, etc).

The major lenders end up buying out the smaller players, and sometimes bigger ones (US funders often lack the patience to work with foreign clients in distress).


And there is no evidence this case is any different. As I posted in the past, Indian carriers returned (or) lessors repoed close to 90 planes since India signed CTT. I don't believe the new bankruptcy law takes precedence over an international treaty, as courts ruled in favor of lessors/CTT in the past.

A.net need not worry about boogieman holding on to leases. I am sure 9W will return every single plane lessors want without any delay.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:25 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
9W should return at least 25x737 classics to cut costs and improve utilization.


I think you meant the 737NG's?

Yes that is the plan. The first dozen or so MAX8's are replacing 737NG's coming off lease. The 4 737-700's they have are being phased out. Rumor is Spice jet is looking to pick these -700's and start flights to IXL/RAJ. That is unconfirmed rumor. SG only had mostly 737-800's and a few -900ER's so far.

Coming back to Jet - there is absolutely zero evidence of repossession or groundings as is being alleged quoting anonymous sources.
Last edited by BawliBooch on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
strfyr51
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:40 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
727200 wrote:
They just ordered 75 more planes, wounder if Boeing will let them go and potentially Airbus comes in to give a bridge loan, or Boeing ups the ante and provides partial funding? My guess is Boeing will be involved to save the $10B order.


They have 225 MAX on order. I can’t imagine Boeing not trying to save this order were there an actual cash crunch.

Contrary to popular opinion? Boeing couldn't help them other than remarketing the Airplanes they have on order. If Boeing were to invest in them to save their Order?
Then every OTHER Customer could ask for the Same or a Discount related to the same money. Not a good Idea.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:15 am

Jet has been unable to pay the MRO on time, and they are holding back 18 engines till its repaid.

Jet Airways' 18 B-737 aircraft engines grounded in Singapore over $125m in unpaid dues: Report

Beleaguered airline Jet Airways landed in a spot of trouble in Singapore as a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) unit held back 18 of its CFM56 engines that power the bulk of its fleet of Boeing 737 aircraft because of unpaid dues, Business Standard reported.

ST Engineering's MRO is demanding $125-150 million to release these engines that have been stuck for months, sources told the paper.
...
The two parties signed a power-by-the-hour agreement in 2010, under which Jet was required to pay a monthly fee to cover all maintenance-related expenses. The agreements were renewed in 2015 and new deals were put in place that covered all the Boeing 737 aircraft. The contract value rose to $700 million from $350 million. Jet has not paid these dues on time for a while and they are piling up, the report stated.

This is not the first time such a thing has happened. Jet had been unable to pay the dues in 2012 to the MRO and the payment was completed only after Etihad Airways acquired 24 percent stake in the airline.
...
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:07 am

 
smartplane
Posts: 1097
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:10 am

strfyr51 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
727200 wrote:
They just ordered 75 more planes, wounder if Boeing will let them go and potentially Airbus comes in to give a bridge loan, or Boeing ups the ante and provides partial funding? My guess is Boeing will be involved to save the $10B order.


They have 225 MAX on order. I can’t imagine Boeing not trying to save this order were there an actual cash crunch.

Contrary to popular opinion? Boeing couldn't help them other than remarketing the Airplanes they have on order. If Boeing were to invest in them to save their Order?
Then every OTHER Customer could ask for the Same or a Discount related to the same money. Not a good Idea.

Both OEM's assist start-ups and selectively, those experiencing financial difficulties.

Ranges from 'talking' to aircraft financiers and leasors, providing extended terms on parts, right through to acquiring leases / taking out funding on existing aircraft and funding new deliveries, directly or through nominees.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7294
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:15 am

strfyr51 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
727200 wrote:
They just ordered 75 more planes, wounder if Boeing will let them go and potentially Airbus comes in to give a bridge loan, or Boeing ups the ante and provides partial funding? My guess is Boeing will be involved to save the $10B order.


They have 225 MAX on order. I can’t imagine Boeing not trying to save this order were there an actual cash crunch.

Contrary to popular opinion? Boeing couldn't help them other than remarketing the Airplanes they have on order. If Boeing were to invest in them to save their Order?
Then every OTHER Customer could ask for the Same or a Discount related to the same money. Not a good Idea.


Boeing may very well bridge finance MAX deliveries. The issue is the overall capacity. The prudent thing would be to dump oldest frames and cut capacity rapidly, but there is a stigma attached to rationalizing network or reducing the fleet size. Management has to outgrow these fears.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 pm

EY has agreed to raise their stake:

https://www.ndtv.com/business/etihad-ag ... ome-livetv

Finally, it looks like a turnaround is possible.

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blrsea
Posts: 1919
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:26 am

Looks like light at end of the tunnel. Forensic audit has given a clean chit to Jet. Naresh Goyal agreed to lower stake and even lower voting power. Etihad is willing to raise its stake to 49% and lenders are willing to restructure loan provided more equity infusion takes place from promoters including Jet & Etihad. Some nitty-gritties need to be worked out relating to EY increasing stake without having to trigger open offers.

Lenders to bail out debt-laden Jet Airways after forensic clean chit

Lenders to Jet Airways are preparing to pick a substantial stake and restructure the debt of the cash-strapped airline as a forensic audit has not shown any adverse findings, it is learnt. State Bank of India (SBI), which leads the consortium of lenders, had last month appointed consulting firm EY to carry out a forensic audit of the airline's accounts following complaints of fund diversion.
...
...Sources indicated that founder chairman Naresh Goyal would have to step down from the Jet board, but he may still retain a role in the company as chairman emeritus. His son Nivaan, who’s an executive in Jet, may be inducted into the board.
...
However, any fund infusion and debt restructuring will depend on Jet raising funds from its promoters and other investors. According to media reports, Jet's strategic partner Etihad has agreed to increase its stake in the airline from 24 to 49 per cent, resulting in dilution of Goyal's stake. As promoter, Goyal holds 51 per cent in Jet.

Increasing stake beyond 25 per cent could trigger an open offer. According to the Securities and Exchange Board of India (Sebi) regulations, a "competent authority" is empowered to issue waivers in relation to an open offer. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) had in fact granted Ajay Singh a waiver when he had assumed control of SpiceJet in 2015. Officials of Jet and the civil aviation ministry said no application had been made so far for a waiver of an open offer.
...


Another similar article from LiveMint...

Etihad poised to take effective control of Jet Airways

“Given the precarious financial situation of Jet Airways, lenders don’t expect Goyal to bring in additional funds and are banking on Etihad to bail the airline out,” said one of the two people cited above.

“Etihad has agreed to increase its stake in Jet Airways and will bring in fresh capital to the company. Etihad is also in talks with several foreign lenders to refinance a large portion of Jet Airways’ rupee and dollar debt which are heading for maturity in the next few quarters,” the person said, adding “Etihad’s stake acquisition is however contingent on Goyal relinquishing control by capping some of his promoter rights.”
...
“A conversion of debt into equity in Jet by the lender will bring down the stakes of all shareholders following which Etihad can again infuse additional money into the company to bring its stake back to the current level. Additionally, infusion of equity in the company will also improve Jet’s leverage ratio allowing to borrow afresh,” the person added....


One more from Business Line

Jet may strike ‘rescue’ pact with Etihad

Etihad Airways may increase its stake in Jet Airways under a scheme wherein it will hold 49 per cent directly and bring in a ‘sleeping partner’ to obtain larger control of the debt-ridden airline.

...
“Etihad may adopt the route taken by a number of foreign telecom operators in the past, wherein they extend soft loans to strategic partners to acquire a stake in the company. That way the foreign player remains within the FDI cap but at the same time gets greater economic control of the company,” said a top banking source.

Before 2013, there was an FDI cap of 74 per cent in the telecom sector. But a number of foreign players got into ‘arrangements’ with Indian partners whereby the latter would buy the balance 26 per cent stake through soft loans extended by the foreign player.
...
Analysts say this might be the best deal for both the airlines “If the banks drag the airline to the NCLT for insolvency proceedings, Goyal would have to give up ownership and Etihad, too, would lose out. Thus, the best way out for Etihad and Jet Airways would be to come to an agreement,” said a Mumbai-based aviation expert.
...


PS:Edited to add BusinessLine report too
 
subramak1
Posts: 163
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:33 pm

The question is why would EY invest in Jet? Is it because BOM/DEL/BLR is a bigger market than AUH?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:07 pm

blrsea wrote:
Jet has been unable to pay the MRO on time, and they are holding back 18 engines till its repaid.

Jet Airways' 18 B-737 aircraft engines grounded in Singapore over $125m in unpaid dues: Report

Beleaguered airline Jet Airways landed in a spot of trouble in Singapore as a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) unit held back 18 of its CFM56 engines that power the bulk of its fleet of Boeing 737 aircraft because of unpaid dues, Business Standard reported.

ST Engineering's MRO is demanding $125-150 million to release these engines that have been stuck for months, sources told the paper.
...
The two parties signed a power-by-the-hour agreement in 2010, under which Jet was required to pay a monthly fee to cover all maintenance-related expenses. The agreements were renewed in 2015 and new deals were put in place that covered all the Boeing 737 aircraft. The contract value rose to $700 million from $350 million. Jet has not paid these dues on time for a while and they are piling up, the report stated.

This is not the first time such a thing has happened. Jet had been unable to pay the dues in 2012 to the MRO and the payment was completed only after Etihad Airways acquired 24 percent stake in the airline.
...

Smart of the MRO. Since the engines are under Singapore law, they can be held until a payment plan is agreed to. Rebuild costs of a CFM-56 is typically about 2/3rds of the value of the rebuilt engine.

The aircraft owner could buy back the engine (fair, IMHO). I'd love it if these engines were followed.

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:27 pm

If 9W owes $150 Million and 18 used CFM56s are at best worth $90 Million, 9W should just find another MRO partner. I don't think 9W needs 18 CFM56 spare engines.
 
lutfi
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:47 am

What PBTH/ MRO partner is going to deal with them if they know 9W didn't pay 150m of invoices? Unless cash deposit up front.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:50 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
If 9W owes $150 Million and 18 used CFM56s are at best worth $90 Million, 9W should just find another MRO partner. I don't think 9W needs 18 CFM56 spare engines.

I missed it was that much. 18 CFM57-7 engines are, as you note, at most worth $90 million. I overlooked the total debt. Ouch.

Yes, best to find a new MRO.

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:52 am

lutfi wrote:
What PBTH/ MRO partner is going to deal with them if they know 9W didn't pay 150m of invoices? Unless cash deposit up front.

None. But that is still cheaper that buying the prior engines out. There will have to be prepayments and funds in escrow.

Lightsaber
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blrsea
Posts: 1919
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:35 am

Looks like govt is prodding bankers to give more leeway to Jet. Govt could end up with egg on its face...

Jet lenders in dilemma as Ethihad seeks easing of preferential share norms

In the course of interactions with senior government functionaries, bankers have gathered the impression the Centre would prefer lenders to give some latitude to Etihad, Jet’s foreign stakeholder, for it to infuse funds.

Etihad wants a relaxation in the pricing of preferential shares that Jet would issue to bring in capital. This is over and above the exemption from open offer to Jet shareholders that is triggered by a change of control in a company or the acquirer’s shareholding crossing 25%.

The Gulf carrier is unwilling to furnish any definite corporate guarantee besides laying down the condition that there should not be any charge or pledge on its equity.

“The government would like banks to consider these relaxations — probably due to diplomatic ties with Abu Dhabi or its reluctance to let another airline go down after Kingfisher. We understand the situation. However, these have been communicated verbally months before a new government is to be formed, and no banker would like to be questioned later for past decisions. Some banks are caught in a dilemma, but we have to take a stand soon,” a senior public sector banker told ET. “As for preferential offer pricing, it’s a call that Sebi’s member (legal) would have to take,” said the person.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:43 am

blrsea wrote:
Looks like govt is prodding bankers to give more leeway to Jet. Govt could end up with egg on its face...

Jet lenders in dilemma as Ethihad seeks easing of preferential share norms

In the course of interactions with senior government functionaries, bankers have gathered the impression the Centre would prefer lenders to give some latitude to Etihad, Jet’s foreign stakeholder, for it to infuse funds.

Etihad wants a relaxation in the pricing of preferential shares that Jet would issue to bring in capital. This is over and above the exemption from open offer to Jet shareholders that is triggered by a change of control in a company or the acquirer’s shareholding crossing 25%.

The Gulf carrier is unwilling to furnish any definite corporate guarantee besides laying down the condition that there should not be any charge or pledge on its equity.

“The government would like banks to consider these relaxations — probably due to diplomatic ties with Abu Dhabi or its reluctance to let another airline go down after Kingfisher. We understand the situation. However, these have been communicated verbally months before a new government is to be formed, and no banker would like to be questioned later for past decisions. Some banks are caught in a dilemma, but we have to take a stand soon,” a senior public sector banker told ET. “As for preferential offer pricing, it’s a call that Sebi’s member (legal) would have to take,” said the person.

Actually, this sounds like business negotiations. EY will not accept liability and wants more stock for their investment.

Missed pay
4 months behind on leases
$125 M+ not paid to MRO...

EY wants to improve their situation.
If they do not invest more, we have another Kingfisher. That would be interesting in a bad way.

Lightsaber
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lutfi
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:15 am

lightsaber wrote:
lutfi wrote:
What PBTH/ MRO partner is going to deal with them if they know 9W didn't pay 150m of invoices? Unless cash deposit up front.

None. But that is still cheaper that buying the prior engines out. There will have to be prepayments and funds in escrow.

Lightsaber


They'll risk having their aircraft seized in Singapore then... (having a large unpaid debt to a company owned by the Singapore government = not good news)

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