unrave wrote:

What/Who is an administration?

edealinfo wrote:

That's why I said Ajay Singh will "have his run" meaning at some point in the future, he too may likely run out of gas. For now, he has his rightful place in the sunshine.

Bawli Bhai, Any reason for the sudden change in your allegiance? You went from bashing Ajay Singh and praising Naresh Goyal to absolutely reverse within two months time, is this some jinxing strategy or new avatar gets new views?

edealinfo wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Don't forget not long ago Goyal was the pioneer.

That's why I said Ajay Singh will "have his run" meaning at some point in the future, he too may likely run out of gas. For now, he has his rightful place in the sunshine.

You know what it means, AI will be forever. Private carriers will go thru just bubble and bust cycles. Every private carrier will have an expiry date.

WPvsMW wrote:

Under the IBC, can IBBI or a group of creditors force a debtor into a bankruptcy proceeding?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvenc ... Code,_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvenc ... d_of_India

do you actually repose faith in the IBC, NCLAT, Supreme Court and all the other institutions that have contradictory and non sensical opinions? The status of Essar Steel was supposed to be settled in 6 months since the process began. As far as I understand, the process has not been completed (despite taking 5X the time) and it hasn’t been an easy time for either the successful bidder or the lenders.

Viman wrote:

unrave wrote:

What/Who is an administration?

edealinfo wrote:

That's why I said Ajay Singh will "have his run" meaning at some point in the future, he too may likely run out of gas. For now, he has his rightful place in the sunshine.

Bawli Bhai, Any reason for the sudden change in your allegiance? You went from bashing Ajay Singh and praising Naresh Goyal to absolutely reverse within two months time, is this some jinxing strategy or new avatar gets new views?

Two different accounts of two different people. Don't put these allegations on edealinfo please.!

On a side note, here is a pic of another failed historical Indian airline.

I think the name is quite funny in today`s context. From Wikipedia:

What is Jet’s strategy for getting its plane released? (The one that was seized by creditors in Amsterdam? What is the value of that debt. My take is that they will settle for 50 cents on the dollar since they can’t possibly sell a plane which has multiple liens on it.

edealinfo wrote:

What is Jet’s strategy for getting its plane released? (The one that was seized by creditors in Amsterdam? What is the value of that debt. My take is that they will settle for 50 cents on the dollar since they can’t possibly sell a plane which has multiple liens on it.

Why do you think that? It makes no sense.

The creditor will not release the seized assets until paid in full for the amount authorized by the court. The creditor does not care who pays...Jet...the lien holder on the plane...makes no difference to the creditor.

There is no reason for the creditor to make a deal at this point for 50 cents on the dollar.

The Netherlands is not India.

DLPMMM wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

What is Jet’s strategy for getting its plane released? (The one that was seized by creditors in Amsterdam? What is the value of that debt. My take is that they will settle for 50 cents on the dollar since they can’t possibly sell a plane which has multiple liens on it.

Why do you think that? It makes no sense.

The creditor will not release the seized assets until paid in full for the amount authorized by the court. The creditor does not care who pays...Jet...the lien holder on the plane...makes no difference to the creditor.

There is no reason for the creditor to make a deal at this point for 50 cents on the dollar.

The Netherlands is not India.

So, the plane will gather dust till it is no longer useable and the creditor gets zero. Actually, the creditor will now owe the airport, fees for parking for X years since the plane is parked at AMS at the behest of the creditor. In 3 years, the creditor will owe the airport more in fees than the amount Jet owed the creditor. In AMS, the creditor could become a debtor as in this example.

You are right, the Netherlands is not India.

edealinfo wrote:

DLPMMM wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

What is Jet’s strategy for getting its plane released? (The one that was seized by creditors in Amsterdam? What is the value of that debt. My take is that they will settle for 50 cents on the dollar since they can’t possibly sell a plane which has multiple liens on it.

Why do you think that? It makes no sense.

The creditor will not release the seized assets until paid in full for the amount authorized by the court. The creditor does not care who pays...Jet...the lien holder on the plane...makes no difference to the creditor.

There is no reason for the creditor to make a deal at this point for 50 cents on the dollar.

The Netherlands is not India.

So, the plane will gather dust till it is no longer useable and the creditor gets zero. Actually, the creditor will now owe the airport, fees for parking for X years since the plane is parked at AMS at the behest of the creditor. In 3 years, the creditor will owe the airport more in fees than the amount Jet owed the creditor. In AMS, the creditor could become a debtor as in this example.

You are right, Amsterdam is not India.

The parking fees will be added tot the bill Jet has to pay. Moreover, the aircraft will be sold by then. However, that procedure will take some time, but will be quicker should Jet actually go bankrupt.

LJ wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

DLPMMM wrote:

Why do you think that? It makes no sense.

The creditor will not release the seized assets until paid in full for the amount authorized by the court. The creditor does not care who pays...Jet...the lien holder on the plane...makes no difference to the creditor.

There is no reason for the creditor to make a deal at this point for 50 cents on the dollar.

The Netherlands is not India.

So, the plane will gather dust till it is no longer useable and the creditor gets zero. Actually, the creditor will now owe the airport, fees for parking for X years since the plane is parked at AMS at the behest of the creditor. In 3 years, the creditor will owe the airport more in fees than the amount Jet owed the creditor. In AMS, the creditor could become a debtor as in this example.

You are right, Amsterdam is not India.

The parking fees will be added tot the bill Jet has to pay. Moreover, the aircraft will be sold by then. However, that procedure will take some time, but will be quicker should Jet actually go bankrupt.

How can they sell an aircraft that they do not own and for which other creditors hold the lien? Obviously, if you own a home in the Netherlands, for which you secured a mortgage from the bank, the cable company can't sell your home because you didn't pay your cable bill.

Jet Airways likely to get Rs 1,000-crore emergency fund on Monday
(I think this major news deserves the large font title)

1. Cash will take it through till May 7 by which time it would be clear if the airline has found a credible investor ready to pump in money.

2. According to the plan, the airline intends to operate with 26 aircraft.

3. “The major head of expenditure will be partial payment of salary, lease rentals to get some planes up in the air and restart the routes and payment to oil marketing companies. But the infusion should be swift. Till now we have submitted plans to the lenders but money was not released,” an airline executive said.

My Opinion: The employees made enough noise to get media attention, which in turn got the politicians and bureaucrats to act, now that a critical point was also reached -- bringing Jet down to its knees. This gives the Government political cover along with the fact that there are some bids on the airline. It also postpones addressing the underlying issue until after the elections. Good political play by Modi?

Kudos to Business Standard for being the first to break this story.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 006_1.html

edealinfo wrote:

LJ wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

So, the plane will gather dust till it is no longer useable and the creditor gets zero. Actually, the creditor will now owe the airport, fees for parking for X years since the plane is parked at AMS at the behest of the creditor. In 3 years, the creditor will owe the airport more in fees than the amount Jet owed the creditor. In AMS, the creditor could become a debtor as in this example.

You are right, Amsterdam is not India.

The parking fees will be added tot the bill Jet has to pay. Moreover, the aircraft will be sold by then. However, that procedure will take some time, but will be quicker should Jet actually go bankrupt.

How can they sell an aircraft that they do not own and for which other creditors hold the lien? Obviously, if you own a home in the Netherlands, for which you secured a mortgage from the bank, the cable company can't sell your home because you didn't pay your cable bill.

The aircraft may be notionally owned, but is subject to multiple fixed and floating charges. There is zero equity in it.

However, that doesn't necessarily stop this creditor using seizure to extract payment. For example, if the unpaid debt is for fuel, where else are they going to secure fuel to extract the aircraft?

Often, the airline will pay up, but in this instance, more likely the lender with the first ranking charge over the aircraft will pay to release, as it's loan T&C's will permit such ancillary payments to secure / protect the asset, will also rank first.

Once the debt is settled, the need to move quickly is imperative, in case other creditors emerge.

Now if you are the first ranking creditor, do you get the other fixed charge creditors to agree to take pre-emptive action? Then pay the crew all their outstanding wages to fly to another airport (lower storage costs), leave undamaged, and hand over the plane's logbooks? And finally initiate steps to de-register? Very tempting.

edealinfo wrote:

Jet Airways likely to get Rs 1,000-crore emergency fund on Monday
(I think this major news deserves the large font title)

1. Cash will take it through till May 7 by which time it would be clear if the airline has found a credible investor ready to pump in money.

Will the consumer still buy the product? I would not. It is, at this point, good money after bad.

YouGeeElWhy wrote:

Will the consumer still buy the product? I would not. It is, at this point, good money after bad.

>>>Will the consumer still buy the product?

Do you think anybody cares? This is about getting re-elected by postponing (until after the elections) the bad outcome of negative publicity stemming from aggravated employees pouring out their hearts and struggles in front of India's bustling media which also includes 25 (multiple language) live 24/7 news channels.

For those not in the know, "jobs" is one of the major issues at play in the elections. Highlighting job losses on TV only hurts the ruling party.

Both the major political parties WILL try to play Jet. That's what it is at this point (yes, it is a game) and damned the business case.

edealinfo wrote:

According to the plan, the airline intends to operate with 26 aircraft.

1. Can someone guess the airline mix of these 26 aircraft? {presunably it would be 777 W, Airbus A330, and ATR but how many in each category?)

2. What are the domestic and international routes likely to be started?
For instance, will LHR be restarted or is it off the table since Etihad took back the slots.....or will Etihad throw Jet a lifeline and give it back?

3. What were Jet's most profitable domestic and international routes?

IndiGo, SpiceJet to add 50 planes in summer amid capacity deficit
{Vistara, I guess, is the tortoise and will reach the goal post long after the spoils of jet's demise are picked up by competitors; Air Asia India isn't much better}

Spicejet NOT to change ex-Jet's aircraft seating layort. SpiceJet to offer premium seating!

Well done Business Standard for this story! You beat your competitors including the reputable LiveMint.com which usually has the first crack at aviation stories. { I think the aviation correspondents for newspapers lurk on these forums so it is important to give feedback}

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 793_1.html

This is a good opinion piece from Devesh Agarwal (of bangaloreaviation.com fame) on how the Jet situation should be handled.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2019/0 ... ively.html

edealinfo wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

Under the IBC, can IBBI or a group of creditors force a debtor into a bankruptcy proceeding?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvenc ... Code,_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvenc ... d_of_India

do you actually repose faith in the IBC, NCLAT, Supreme Court and all the other institutions that have contradictory and non sensical opinions? The status of Essar Steel was supposed to be settled in 6 months since the process began. As far as I understand, the process has not been completed (despite taking 5X the time) and it hasn’t been an easy time for either the successful bidder or the lenders.

No, no faith at all in actual implementation of the IBC. I'm curious if the IBC followed the "only the debtor or a group of creditors can force bankruptcy" statutory approach, or if the IBBI has a (statutory) hammer itself.

As far as implementation, ... "it's India". Stateside, the equivalent phrase is, "It's Baltimore". (... quoting The Wire.)

5NFGS wrote:

3 aircraft left operating.........2 AT72 and a B738.

https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/JAI

Adios Jet, was a good run when it lasted.

An investigation should occur into NARESH GOYAL's behavior though.

He had the perfect case for sustaining a world class airline, albeit hampered by uniquely Indian quirks as we also have in my Nigeria.
However, he allowed his meddlesome nature to affect Jet after the airline had clearly outgrown his management ability.
This consistently chased world class managers away and left Jet bleeding annually.

And now, she's a carcass to fly no more.

Makes me wonder if we are talking about this cat's eight life or its ninth.

Revelation wrote:

Makes me wonder if we are talking about this cat's eight life or its ninth.

It's the 8th with 1,000 cores flowing to Jet on Monday. It may not be the last which is why it is the 8th not 9th life. He has one more.

Checking social media, it looks like no 9W flights are showing up on booking channels at all. I checked 10 routes including BOM-DEL/CDG and no 9W flights come up for next Friday.

voxkel wrote:

Checking social media, it looks like no 9W flights are showing up on booking channels at all. I checked 10 routes including BOM-DEL/CDG and no 9W flights come up for next Friday.

Nothing will show until they get fresh funding on Monday. They are tired of rebooking those booked on ghost flights.

edealinfo wrote:

This is a good opinion piece from Devesh Agarwal (of bangaloreaviation.com fame) on how the Jet situation should be handled.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2019/0 ... ively.html

Great article thanks for posting. That said, I feel like this saga is just going to continue. I also think employees need to be prepared for not getting 100% of their back pay. Not fair I know but I wish indian media could start preparing people for reality.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Not fair I know but I wish indian media could start preparing people for reality.

I agree. Employees should bail and even if a competitor is offering a pay cut compared to their Jet pay they should take it. Those still at Jet either can't get another job or hope the Government will bail them out....... and this fresh 1,000 crore handout......... will make employees further believe that the Government won't pull the rug. All the 1,000 crores do is set false expectations for employees regarding continued employment.

edealinfo wrote:

Jet Airways likely to get Rs 1,000-crore emergency fund on Monday[/size]

STOP TYPING IN LARGE FONTS
What exactly is "breaking" about the story? It rehashes what has been repeated ad nauseam. The reporter had a daily quota to fill and has churned out an article. Notice that it doesn't even attribute the claims to any sources.

edealinfo wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Not fair I know but I wish indian media could start preparing people for reality.

I agree. Employees should bail and even if a competitor is offering a pay cut compared to their Jet pay they should take it. Those still at Jet either can't get another job or hope the Government will bail them out....... and this fresh 1,000 crore handout......... will make employees further believe that the Government won't pull the rug. All the 1,000 crores do is set false expectations for employees regarding continued employment.

There are plenty of reasons for employees to voluntarily stay - seniority, not wanting to work for a LCC, long haul flying, Corp culture. It’s not really anyone’s place to make that call. I just think the employees that stay should be prepared that they may not receive a good chunk of their back pay

For those with in demand skills, surely the calculas is do I hold out for the few months or guarantee I get paid next month.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I agree. Employees should bail and even if a competitor is offering a pay cut compared to their Jet pay they should take it. Those still at Jet either can't get another job or hope the Government will bail them out....... and this fresh 1,000 crore handout......... will make employees further believe that the Government won't pull the rug. All the 1,000 crores do is set false expectations for employees regarding continued employment.

There are plenty of reasons for employees to voluntarily stay - seniority, not wanting to work for a LCC, long haul flying, Corp culture. It’s not really anyone’s place to make that call. I just think the employees that stay should be prepared that they may not receive a good chunk of their back pay

It is unlikely the prior working conditions can be maintained. Employees would be wise to jump ship, even with a pay cut. Not wanting to work for a LCC? It is better than the alternative.

Lightsaber

edealinfo wrote:

This is a good opinion piece from Devesh Agarwal (of bangaloreaviation.com fame) on how the Jet situation should be handled.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2019/0 ... ively.html

Sure ground it. But while it is grounded, others will take away whatever is lying around.

Qantas operates in a protected market; even they had to cut a deal with EK to survive.

How valuable are Bombay slots?

Apparently Ajay Singh of SpiceJet seems to know. He isn't even willing to sacrifice any time to reconfigure Jet's ex-planes.....so those birds will continue to have business class seats (for which he will charge a premium), and the extra leg room that Jet offers over its competitors (no time to waste when slots {especially prime-time slots} are up for grab on a first come first served basis). All that will change is the exterior coat of paint to indicate that the plane is now SpiceJet. This tells us something about seizing the opportunity!

Vistara and Air Asia are left in the dust while they continue to huff and puff.

unrave wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Jet Airways likely to get Rs 1,000-crore emergency fund on Monday[/size]

STOP TYPING IN LARGE FONTS
What exactly is "breaking" about the story? It rehashes what has been repeated ad nauseam. The reporter had a daily quota to fill and has churned out an article. Notice that it doesn't even attribute the claims to any sources.

So, you were the only one on anet to know in advance that that the banks would finally release the large amount of funds? If so, for such an active anetter, how come you did not share it here?

And for heaven's sake, stop typing in large font when you don't have any big news to report!

edealinfo wrote:

So, you were the only one on anet to know in advance that that the banks would finally release the large amount of funds? If so, for such an active anetter, how come you did not share it here?

This has been speculated daily and the article has nothing more to add. It will become big "news" if/when the funds are actually released. And when that happens, please stick to normal font sizes. This is not a forum for 14 year olds.

how ironical .. at one time 9W wanted to get rid of ATR 72s. Now they are left with only 2 flying ATR 72s.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/fleet/JAI

6E is starting flights from BOM T2. Presumably 9W slots. Does anybody know if this is all the BOM 9W slots? I don't recall any flight to/from BOM yesterday on FlightAware.

anshabhi wrote:

how ironical .. at one time 9W wanted to get rid of ATR 72s. Now they are left with only 2 flying ATR 72s.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/fleet/JAI

^^ It's sort of a deja vu for MAA...for years, they've been trying to get rid of the 5 or so KF ATRs at the airport, and now there are 5 9W ATRs to deal with too...this is in addition to the 4 NEPC F27s.

anshabhi wrote:

how ironical .. at one time 9W wanted to get rid of ATR 72s. Now they are left with only 2 flying ATR 72s.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/fleet/JAI

Aergo is seeking to repossess seven ATR 72. Avalon, GECAS and SMBC for their B737. I wonder who will eventually pick up their (some)
A330 fleet and B77W they currently owned?

Not that it matters anymore but Jet pilot's union is going on strike from tomorrow.

edealinfo wrote:

For instance, will LHR be restarted or is it off the table since Etihad took back the slots.....or will Etihad throw Jet a lifeline and give it back?

Well, if Etihad's bid is accepted, presumably yes, they'll allow "revived Jet" to use the slots. If not, it probably depends what Etihad is offered for the use of the slots. But if the process drags on (as seems entirely possible given the total lack of urgency shown by everyone except the aircraft leasing companies), there will come a point in about 5 weeks time when Etihad simply has to either use the slots themselves or lease them out to another airline, otherwise they will be confiscated at the beginning of June by the LHR slot controller (ACL Ltd) for failure to fly them at least 80% of dates in the IATA summer season. Confiscation involves returning the slots to the pool, without compensation. But the slots are in Etihad's accounts with a value, so they can't and won't just throw them away, even if they have to charter someone with an UK/EU AOC to operate shorthaul or even empty journeys. But even chartering someone isn't that easy in an MAX-less summer, where every airline that had MAX deliveries or imminent deliveries has been scrambling to find 738s the pilots and crews are qualified on, or wet-leases, in order to maintain their schedules.

I read somewhere that Jet was inducted into the Star Alliance back in the 2007 but was then quickly removed. Couldn't track back the source. Can someone clarify?

More than a thousand pilots of India’s debt-laden Jet Airways will not fly starting Monday as they have not been paid salaries for the past three months.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jet- ... ce=twitter

WeatherPilot wrote:

More than a thousand pilots of India’s debt-laden Jet Airways will not fly starting Monday as they have not been paid salaries for the past three months.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jet- ... ce=twitter

9W's current fleet needs 8-10 pilots at most a day.

Any info on what the EOIs contain? Like how much haircut has been asked for?

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:

I read somewhere that Jet was inducted into the Star Alliance back in the 2007 but was then quickly removed. Couldn't track back the source. Can someone clarify?

Jet had then planned to enter Star alliance but that didn't happen.
They weren't inducted and removed

binayak wrote:

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:

I read somewhere that Jet was inducted into the Star Alliance back in the 2007 but was then quickly removed. Couldn't track back the source. Can someone clarify?

Jet had then planned to enter Star alliance but that didn't happen.
They weren't inducted and removed

If not for sarkari lobbying, this livery might actually have become a reality. https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/wh ... 300-a.html

WeatherPilot wrote:

More than a thousand pilots of India’s debt-laden Jet Airways will not fly starting Monday as they have not been paid salaries for the past three months.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jet- ... ce=twitter

Yes, now when Etihad was on the verge of submitting a final bid in 15 days to allow something to crawl out of the grave, the pilots have started nailing the coffin. The pilots will be the final party to have pulled the rug,. If the Government releases 1000 crores tomorrow, it won’t be enough to cover their 3 months of back pay plus all the other expenses in fully restating the airline. The pilots strike has given Etihad reason to walk.

Rats deserting a sinking ship

the Economic Times is reporting that one of the independent directors has resigned effective April 13

Spicejet makes hay while the sun shines by hiring ex Jet staff at substantially lower salaries

“SpiceJet is now hiring engineers and pilots at much lower pay than their current salaries at the financialy-troubled Jet. Industry sources told IANS that pilots from Jet Airways are being asked to take salary cuts of 25-30 per cent while engineers have been advised to settle at 50 per cent of their current pay package.“

edealinfo wrote:

Spicejet makes hay while the sun shines by hiring ex Jet staff at substantially lower salaries

“SpiceJet is now hiring engineers and pilots at much lower pay than their current salaries at the financialy-troubled Jet. Industry sources told IANS that pilots from Jet Airways are being asked to take salary cuts of 25-30 per cent while engineers have been advised to settle at 50 per cent of their current pay package.“

That's pure outright cruel and violates labor laws.

Employees should reach court if true.

edealinfo wrote:

WeatherPilot wrote:

More than a thousand pilots of India’s debt-laden Jet Airways will not fly starting Monday as they have not been paid salaries for the past three months.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jet- ... ce=twitter

Yes, now when Etihad was on the verge of submitting a final bid in 15 days to allow something to crawl out of the grave, the pilots have started nailing the coffin. The pilots will be the final party to have pulled the rug,. If the Government releases 1000 crores tomorrow, it won’t be enough to cover their 3 months of back pay plus all the other expenses in fully restating the airline. The pilots strike has given Etihad reason to walk.

The pilots don't make any difference. Jet is dead. It is cheaper to start a brand new airline from scratch than to start of with this rotting carcass. EY has bailed and is not going to submit a bid.

It is ironic but the election killed Jet. The upcoming election with a belief that someone would bail out Jet for some sort of reason resulted in a large scale game of chicken in which nobody backed down and the resulting crash killed the airline.

If some drastic action was taken last year, Jet would probably have survived but now the damage is irreversible.

anshabhi wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Spicejet makes hay while the sun shines by hiring ex Jet staff at substantially lower salaries

“SpiceJet is now hiring engineers and pilots at much lower pay than their current salaries at the financialy-troubled Jet. Industry sources told IANS that pilots from Jet Airways are being asked to take salary cuts of 25-30 per cent while engineers have been advised to settle at 50 per cent of their current pay package.“

That's pure outright cruel and violates labor laws.

Employees should reach court if true.

How so? Please explain.

The above user to have quoted that news has done so without providing the complete picture.
All that was stated was that SG will pay any hired staff from 9W the same pay scale as what's being offered to their own staff. They obviously can't offer 9W staff higher salary and their own staff lower, doesn't make sense.
If only one bothers to read and understand any news rather than sensationalizing it by quoting half cooked pictures on it.

Feels like a bunch of ten year olds on this thread topic.

anshabhi wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Spicejet makes hay while the sun shines by hiring ex Jet staff at substantially lower salaries

“SpiceJet is now hiring engineers and pilots at much lower pay than their current salaries at the financialy-troubled Jet. Industry sources told IANS that pilots from Jet Airways are being asked to take salary cuts of 25-30 per cent while engineers have been advised to settle at 50 per cent of their current pay package.“

That's pure outright cruel and violates labor laws.

Employees should reach court if true.

Why.....if Jet's pay is substantially higher than all the airlines, should other airlines also pay the inflated salaries or be held in violation of some un-named labor law? Your response makes no sense.