User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:47 am

Indigo is hiring Jet pilots with some compensation for unpaid salary:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/in.news.yaho ... 00351.html

The wheels are coming off. Leasors, pilots, and passengers are going elsewhere. This has gone on too long.

I hope a deal is announced soon. The board met and... Crickets.

For a desperate business, that delay could be critical. Any news?

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
Indigo is hiring Jet pilots with some compensation for unpaid salary:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/in.news.yaho ... 00351.html

The wheels are coming off. Leasors, pilots, and passengers are going elsewhere. This has gone on too long.

I hope a deal is announced soon. The board met and... Crickets.

For a desperate business, that delay could be critical. Any news?

Lightsaber


Now 6E is officially the big bully :rotfl: . It is like killing two birds with a single stone ie) hiring the much needed pilots and banishing the competition at the same time.

Hiring pilots is one thing but compensating for unpaid salary is out of the box. This is an indicator of 6E having deep pockets though their last quarter wasn't that good.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1921
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 am

6E is having crew-staffing issues, they don't have enough pilots leading to lots of groundings over the last couple of months. Its cheaper for them to get 9W pilots, many probably aren't even flying fully now given the amount of planes grounded by 9W. Plus the pilots get the backpay that 9W owed them. They will also get back salaries from 9W when the resolution takes place. So its a win-win for both 9W and 6E. I don't think 9W will lose sleep over some pilots crossing over, as it also reduces the salary burden for them.
 
User avatar
trinidadeG
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:37 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
Now 6E is officially the big bully :rotfl: . It is like killing two birds with a single stone ie) hiring the much needed pilots and banishing the competition at the same time.

Hiring pilots is one thing but compensating for unpaid salary is out of the box. This is an indicator of 6E having deep pockets though their last quarter wasn't that good.

The "compensation for unpaid salary" is only a good PR move, IMO. Other articles covering the news says that 6E will not pay 9W pilots the usual "signing bonus"..

"We are not offering a signing bonus. We are offering a compensation for overdue salaries," the spokesperson said.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 39491.html

Considering the offer from all aspects, including a change in type of aircraft, seniority, etc., the offer may not be very lucrative to experienced 9W pilots in general. 6E doesn't really want the low-hour pilots since they've got plenty of their own.
 
avier
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:59 am

The articles don't mention type of aircraft in regards to them poaching crew. So if 6E is going after more experienced pilots/Captains, I doubt those pilots can transition from being a 737 Captain to A320 Captain. If they are hiring ATR & A330 pilots from 9W, then that would make more sense.
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:54 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Indigo is hiring Jet pilots with some compensation for unpaid salary:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/in.news.yaho ... 00351.html

The wheels are coming off. Leasors, pilots, and passengers are going elsewhere. This has gone on too long.

I hope a deal is announced soon. The board met and... Crickets.

For a desperate business, that delay could be critical. Any news?

Lightsaber


Now 6E is officially the big bully :rotfl: . It is like killing two birds with a single stone ie) hiring the much needed pilots and banishing the competition at the same time.

Hiring pilots is one thing but compensating for unpaid salary is out of the box. This is an indicator of 6E having deep pockets though their last quarter wasn't that good.


Paying a signing bonus is not out of the box by any means, Indian airlines (all of them) did it a few years back, until it was made illegal. Plus conditions like few months notice periods were enforced to prevent opportunistic poaching. However since Jet pilots haven't been paid for months, these agreements will be void if they go to court. A pilot does have the right to "earn" for the work they do, and if the company ain't keeping their end of the bargain, pilots have a right to walk out do what's best in their interest.

Also having one bad quarter with no profits doesn't mean they don't have cash reserves. They after have made money almost every year unlike most of the competitors. Financially Indigo is quite comfortable and can take on as many pilots as they wish even if it means paying a premium.
 
lutfi
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:33 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 am

avier wrote:
The articles don't mention type of aircraft in regards to them poaching crew. So if 6E is going after more experienced pilots/Captains, I doubt those pilots can transition from being a 737 Captain to A320 Captain. If they are hiring ATR & A330 pilots from 9W, then that would make more sense.


Of course they can - it is a 5-6 week training course. Issue will be training capacity of 6E, but presumably they can outsource simulator time/ ground school.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:02 pm

So no news on EY/JET/Banks deal?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:18 pm

sibibom wrote:
EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Indigo is hiring Jet pilots with some compensation for unpaid salary:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/in.news.yaho ... 00351.html

The wheels are coming off. Leasors, pilots, and passengers are going elsewhere. This has gone on too long.

I hope a deal is announced soon. The board met and... Crickets.

For a desperate business, that delay could be critical. Any news?

Lightsaber


Now 6E is officially the big bully :rotfl: . It is like killing two birds with a single stone ie) hiring the much needed pilots and banishing the competition at the same time.

Hiring pilots is one thing but compensating for unpaid salary is out of the box. This is an indicator of 6E having deep pockets though their last quarter wasn't that good.


Paying a signing bonus is not out of the box by any means, Indian airlines (all of them) did it a few years back, until it was made illegal. Plus conditions like few months notice periods were enforced to prevent opportunistic poaching. However since Jet pilots haven't been paid for months, these agreements will be void if they go to court. A pilot does have the right to "earn" for the work they do, and if the company ain't keeping their end of the bargain, pilots have a right to walk out do what's best in their interest.

Also having one bad quarter with no profits doesn't mean they don't have cash reserves. They after have made money almost every year unlike most of the competitors. Financially Indigo is quite comfortable and can take on as many pilots as they wish even if it means paying a premium.

It needs to be emphasized that pay in arrears, even one day, voids the employment contract.

Indigo needs pilots. Jet cannot pay their pilots. For a six week transition course, a no brainier. 6E should outsource as much as possible to expedite pilot induction.

Jet could legally keep pilots if pay was normalised.

Why haven't we heard anything?
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:16 pm

Now 37 aircraft grounded by leasors, plus MAX's:

https://m.businesstoday.in/lite/story/c ... 27504.html

Only 69% of aircraft could be available. What is happening? It is really bad EY doesn't feel confident to invest.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 pm

EY previously offered terms that SBI and SEBI rejected, so EY has confidence with the right terms. My reading is that EY's board sent a counteroffer.
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:04 pm

'Torture' doesn't begin to describe this downward spiral into a bottomless pit.
Vahroone
 
zionite
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:16 pm

Here's the current status - thanks to FR24.

 REG NO.  TYPE   STATUS   STORAGE   LAST COMM. FLT.

 VT-JWP   A332    ????      BOM       11-03-2019
 VT-JWQ   A332   FLYING
 VT-JWV   A332   STORED     BOM       17-11-2018
 VT-JWW   A332   FLYING

 VT-JWR   A333   FLYING
 VT-JWS   A333   FLYING
 VT-JWT   A333   FLYING
 VT-JWU   A333   FLYING

 VT-JCJ   AT75   STORED     MAA       11-12-2018
 VT-JCK   AT75   STORED     DEL       01-01-2019
 VT-JCL   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCM   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCN   AT75   STORED     DEL       06-12-2018
 VT-JCP   AT75   STORED     MAA       03-01-2019
 VT-JCQ   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCR   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCS   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCT   AT75   STORED     MAA       10-03-2019
 VT-JCU   AT75   STORED     MAA       08-02-2019
 VT-JCV   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JCW   AT75   FLYING
 VT-JDC   AT75   STORED     MAA       10-02-2019
 VT-JDD   AT75   STORED     DEL       15-11-2018

 VT-JCX   AT76   STORED     DEL       27-02-2019
 VT-JCY   AT76  RETURNED              06-01-2019

 VT-JXA   B38M   STORED     HYD       27-02-2019
 VT-JXB   B38M   STORED     HYD       25-02-2019
 VT-JXC   B38M   STORED     BOM       22-01-2019
 VT-JXD   B38M   STORED     CCU       25-02-2019
 VT-JXE   B38M   STORED     COK       28-02-2019
 VT-JXF   B38M NOT DELIV.
 VT-JXG   B38M NOT DELIV.
 VT-JXH   B38M NOT DELIV.
 VT-JXJ   B38M NOT DELIV.

 VT-JGX   B737   FLYING
 VT-JGY   B737   STORED     DEL       10-02-2019
 VT-SIZ   B737   FLYING
 VT-SJA   B737   FLYING

 VT-JBB   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBC   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBD   B738    ????      BLR       11-03-2019
 VT-JBE   B738   STORED     HYD       13-03-2019
 VT-JBF   B738   STORED     HYD       12-03-2019
 VT-JBG   B738   STORED     HYD       12-10-2018
 VT-JBH   B738  RETURNED              16-02-2019
 VT-JBJ   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBK   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBL   B738   STORED     BOM       15-10-2019
 VT-JBQ   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBR   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBS   B738   FLYING
 VT-JBU   B738   STORED     HYD       07-03-2019
 VT-JBV   B738   STORED     COK       06-03-2019
 VT-JBW   B738    ????      BOM       11-03-2019
 VT-JBX   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFA   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFB   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFC   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFD   B738    ????      HYD       13-03-2019
 VT-JFE   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFF   B738   STORED     HYD       05-02-2019
 VT-JFG   B738   STORED     DEL       24-02-2019
 VT-JFH   B738   STORED     MAA       07-02-2019
 VT-JFJ   B738   STORED     NAG       26-02-2019
 VT-JFK   B738   STORED     COK       26-02-2019
 VT-JFL   B738   STORED     DEL       28-01-2019
 VT-JFM   B738   STORED     DEL       26-02-2019
 VT-JFN   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFP   B738   STORED     COK       26-02-2019
 VT-JFQ   B738   STORED     BOM       26-02-2019
 VT-JFR   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFS   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFT   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFW   B738   STORED     HYD       02-03-2019
 VT-JFX   B738   FLYING
 VT-JFY   B738   STORED     HYD       02-03-2019
 VT-JFZ   B738   STORED     HYD       01-03-2019
 VT-JGA   B738    ????      BOM       12-03-2019
 VT-JGE   B738  RETURNED              12-12-2018
 VT-JGF   B738   STORED     BOM       12-02-2019
 VT-JGG   B738   STORED     BOM       27-02-2019
 VT-JGJ   B738   STORED     BOM       03-02-2019
 VT-JGK   B738   FLYING
 VT-JGP   B738   FLYING
 VT-JGQ   B738   FLYING
 VT-JGR   B738    ????      BLR       11-03-2019
 VT-JGS   B738    ????      BOM       13-03-2019
 VT-JGT   B738   FLYING
 VT-JGU   B738   FLYING
 VT-JGV   B738   STORED     HYD       02-01-2019
 VT-JGW   B738   FLYING
 VT-JLE   B738   FLYING
 VT-JLF   B738   FLYING
 VT-JTA   B738   STORED     BLR       02-03-2019
 VT-JTB   B738   STORED     BLR       06-02-2019
 VT-JTC   B738   FLYING
 VT-JTD   B738  RETURNED              31-01-2019
 VT-JTE   B738   STORED     COK       28-02-2019
 VT-JTF   B738   STORED     DEL       28-02-2019
 VT-JTG   B738   STORED     DEL       01-03-2019
 VT-JTH   B738   FLYING
 VT-JTK   B738   FLYING
 VT-JTL   B738   STORED     DEL       27-02-2019
 VT-JTM   B738   STORED     BOM       27-02-2019
 VT-JTN   B738   FLYING
 VT-SJI   B738   FLYING
 VT-SJJ   B738   FLYING

 VT-JBY   B739   FLYING
 VT-JBZ   B739   FLYING
 VT-JGC   B739   FLYING
 VT-JGD   B739   STORED     DEL       22-11-2018
 VT-JLH   B739   STORED     COK       09-03-2019
 VT-JLJ   B739    ????      BLR       13-02-2019

 VT-JEH   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEK   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEM   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEQ   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JES   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JET   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEU   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEV   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEW   B77W   FLYING
 VT-JEX   B77W   STORED     MAA       29-09-2018


???? - On ground for 24 hrs or more.

Last Commerical Flight Date - there may be a mix-up of last commercial flight date and last flight. I changed my mind after few record checks so didn't recheck and correct.

 59  - Flying
 48  - Stored
  4  - Returned
  4  - Not Delivered
  8  - Unknown Status ????
---------------------------------------
123  - Total
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:44 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
EY previously offered terms that SBI and SEBI rejected, so EY has confidence with the right terms. My reading is that EY's board sent a counteroffer.

I suspect that you are correct. Goyal's PR about timely funds was probably his attempt to prevent this.

The advantage of being the cash supplier is time is more to your negotiating advantage (until Jet folds).

EY's offer was rejected. The why doesn't matter. They offered A for B. At this time, their legal obligation is small.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:59 pm

A few days ago I thought they were saved, at least for now. No news about agreement going foward is starting to look dangerous for them, with the situation deteriorating, and some point those leased frames get reallocated, and with the current world wide issue that will not be mentioned leased frames might be quite valuable elsewhere for the near future.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
A few days ago I thought they were saved, at least for now. No news about agreement going foward is starting to look dangerous for them, with the situation deteriorating, and some point those leased frames get reallocated, and with the current world wide issue that will not be mentioned leased frames might be quite valuable elsewhere for the near future.

You raise a fair point. The short term value of a 737NG just spiked.

No news is ... Concerning. The situation has spiralled out of control. Only a quick shock of fresh funds could save them, but I expect leasing companies are having clients demand 737NGs NOW!

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
EBT
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:30 am

At least one - FLY Leasing - had said publicly that it was giving Jet until the end of the month to sort out the restructuring plan, and if not they were going to take back their three 737-800s. It's not the easiest thing to do in India, but FLY's aircraft are managed by BBAM who have been able to do repo's before, and I'm sure they know the tricks to get their jets back quickly. As said by others, there will likely be quite a few willing homes for them, particularly for carriers that have scheduled in new services based on them having the variant that shall not be named in their fleet for the northern summer.

The issue for Jet is that as soon as one lessor takes their aircraft back, the rest will soon follow suit. About the only way to stop that would be for EY or one of the other investors to guarantee to pay the backdated and some forward lease payments. But that will burn through heaps of cash that the airline needs just to maintain its operations. And for each day it drags out, more gets owed to leasing companies, employees, banks, fuel suppliers - everyone basically. So the hole gets deeeper, and more cash is needed to fill it, just to keep the lights on. To say that it must be uncomfortable would be a gross under-statement.
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am

My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that this is a controlled crash landing for reasons best known to the powers that be?
Vahroone
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:02 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that this is a controlled crash landing for reasons best known to the powers that be?


Partly true, another aspect is Jet has a decent working relationship many of their suppliers, airports, fuel companies going as much as 2 decades or even more. They have given Jet a lot more leeway than they did with Kingfisher.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
A few days ago I thought they were saved, at least for now. No news about agreement going foward is starting to look dangerous for them, with the situation deteriorating, and some point those leased frames get reallocated, and with the current world wide issue that will not be mentioned leased frames might be quite valuable elsewhere for the near future.

You raise a fair point. The short term value of a 737NG just spiked.

No news is ... Concerning. The situation has spiralled out of control. Only a quick shock of fresh funds could save them, but I expect leasing companies are having clients demand 737NGs NOW!

Lightsaber

The Punjab National.Bank (PNB) chairman has said “unless you support Jet there will be destruction in value”.......basically going with the argument that they want some chance of recovering sunk costs as opposed to throwing good money after bad. But, he has cleverly said that there would be a “collective” decision by all banks........ this way he doesn’t take blame if his bet is bad. And to further dilute the blame, the boards of all the banks will make the decision.assuming that all the directors of all the boards would be no less than 100 combined, no individual could possibly be blamed or charged. Welcome to India!
 
avier
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 pm

 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that this is a controlled crash landing for reasons best known to the powers that be?


Very well said. This is a huge game that has been playing out over months and months (not a true bankruptcy that you see normally). Each side using threats to get what they want and letting Jet fall to prove the point.

So how has Jet survived - my guess, because Jet has enough cash flow to keep them in arrears but not extreme default (notice I added extreme). Also, contrary to what people say on this board, most companies rarely immediately repossess. They work with the partner. My favorite line above was the one that said if you pay an employee even one day late their contract is void. While I have not read Jet's employment agreements, I am willing to bet that there is what is called a cure period. Now that cure period is probably over, but it is not so dramatic. And once again, until the employee unions start speaking up, let's leave the employees alone. They see fully invested in saving Jet. Might be foolish, but it is their decision. Btw I could see Southwest or Delta employees doing the same.

Which brings me to my final point. I think we all have to acknowledge that certain posts on the board over all these months are not factually correct and were meant to be inflammatory. They painted a picture months and months ago that was just nor TRUE (to still defend those posts because of what is happening today is a joke and misses what you pointed out about the controlled crash). It is really sad and speaks a lot about the character of the people who post them (and I don't care if they are being paid to post). They are really some of the lowest people I can think of. People's jobs, India's economy are not something to be damaged for Rs 1000 or what ever. I am glad that the Indian banks and the Indian govt are trying to settle this - ANY govt would in a similar situation. Aside from Goyal, I blame EY a ton. They won't sell and won't settle. Instead demanding some golden bailout like an entitled baby. Nice to see India has some spine. At some point, the banks need to step in, even if it makes AUH's Raja unhappy. And yes I think Tata would be happy to take Jet's stake because the GOI would obviously restructure Jet as part of that purchase (which is the same bailout EY wants but doesn't deserve).
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:07 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that this is a controlled crash landing for reasons best known to the powers that be?


Very well said. This is a huge game that has been playing out over months and months (not a true bankruptcy that you see normally). Each side using threats to get what they want and letting Jet fall to prove the point.

So how has Jet survived - my guess, because Jet has enough cash flow to keep them in arrears but not extreme default (notice I added extreme). Also, contrary to what people say on this board, most companies rarely immediately repossess. They work with the partner. My favorite line above was the one that said if you pay an employee even one day late their contract is void. While I have not read Jet's employment agreements, I am willing to bet that there is what is called a cure period. Now that cure period is probably over, but it is not so dramatic. And once again, until the employee unions start speaking up, let's leave the employees alone. They see fully invested in saving Jet. Might be foolish, but it is their decision. Btw I could see Southwest or Delta employees doing the same.

Which brings me to my final point. I think we all have to acknowledge that certain posts on the board over all these months are not factually correct and were meant to be inflammatory. They painted a picture months and months ago that was just nor TRUE (to still defend those posts because of what is happening today is a joke and misses what you pointed out about the controlled crash). It is really sad and speaks a lot about the character of the people who post them (and I don't care if they are being paid to post). They are really some of the lowest people I can think of. People's jobs, India's economy are not something to be damaged for Rs 1000 or what ever. I am glad that the Indian banks and the Indian govt are trying to settle this - ANY govt would in a similar situation. Aside from Goyal, I blame EY a ton. They won't sell and won't settle. Instead demanding some golden bailout like an entitled baby. Nice to see India has some spine. At some point, the banks need to step in, even if it makes AUH's Raja unhappy. And yes I think Tata would be happy to take Jet's stake because the GOI would obviously restructure Jet as part of that purchase (which is the same bailout EY wants but doesn't deserve).


So you are saying people are at fault for actually predicting the future correctly? You do know business analysts and consultants are paid to do that? Whereas denials of any trouble despite mounting proof needs to be applauded? It's this kind of attitude which land companies into trouble. One needs to question decisions cos a bunch of "Yes Men" never helps a business.

And comments about people being paid is hilarious, do you really think someone gets paid to comment on Anet so some random 100 people read it? And If they do that please pass on my email ID. :duck:
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
So how has Jet survived .


It survived because of 22 codeshare partners, continued support of employees and travel agents.

Some may say OMG 9W has just 59 planes flying, I would say if it can sustain 80% of its peak revenue, it should cut the fleet size further.

In the current situation ie., 737NGs having good placement potential, lessors may be willing to reduce condition penalties and take those back quickly. MAX lessors should be happy 9W has parking space.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:22 pm

sibibom wrote:
So you are saying people are at fault for actually predicting the future correctly?:


The prediction would be correct only if 9W shuts down. Which hasn't happened yet? I can still wait.
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
So you are saying people are at fault for actually predicting the future correctly?:


The prediction would be correct only if 9W shuts down. Which hasn't happened yet? I can still wait.


Prediction (atleast mine) is they will shut down if there isn't a major shakeup(ownership change) and lots of money put in cos of their murky finances, I have pointed at Naresh Goyal and his wife as one of the major problem for professionals to take the right decisions to save Jet. Everything is heading exactly towards that. Your prediction was there nothing wrong with Jet and its an Indigo conspiracy. Naresh Goyal's own admission proves all of this as BS.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back. They are surviving cos government doesn't want it to go belly up right before elections.

I am not wishing for Jet to shut down rather be saved. I have friends and family who have worked there or are currently working. They all attest to the fact that it was THE premier airline in the country until in the last few years it completely lost direction and professionals weren't allowed to run, rather decisions were taken by people with no clue about running a professional airline in this day and age. Naresh Goyal was a maverick in the 90s to have built this airline out of nothing, but times changed, he didn't and held on to power when he should let competent professionals handle the day to day running.

My prediction today (based on more information out there), Jet is becoming a mini Air India. Had decisive action been taken in October-November 2018, it could have been saved. Today by my accounts it needs Rs 6000-8000 Crores to just stabilize. Even that may not be enough to bring it back to what it was. It becoming an endless money pit and even partially owned by the government!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:52 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.

Surely I'm not the only one thinking that this is a controlled crash landing for reasons best known to the powers that be?

Kingfisher was in trouble by may 2011 (The same timeframe would be May 2018 for Jet.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingfisher_Airlines

By May 2011 they had accounts frozen for failure to pay taxes. They failed in October 2012.

So Jet it paralleling Kingfisher, just 7 years later. If Jet is on the same timeline, they will shutdown in October of this year.

I have no idea why India allows zombie companies to such a degree. It costs far more to the economy to let a failed company pretend for 17 months... Oh well.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
avier
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:54 pm

sibibom wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
So you are saying people are at fault for actually predicting the future correctly?:


The prediction would be correct only if 9W shuts down. Which hasn't happened yet? I can still wait.


Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back.



Really? What about most of the major US carriers before they became US3, ie. US 6 or whatever, having chased for Chp 11 bankruptcy protection and filled for reorganization that allowed them to sort of save their mega carriers. If not for that, there would have just been Southwest and JetBlue today with many smaller carriers left in the country.
It's ironic you compared it to the US, because that's not what has happened there in the last two decades.
Last edited by avier on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:54 pm

sibibom wrote:
Your prediction was there nothing wrong with Jet and its an Indigo conspiracy. Naresh Goyal's own admission proves all of this as BS.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back. They are surviving cos government doesn't want it to go belly up right before elections.


What % of my posts contained "There is nothing wrong with Jet".

Airlines outside India have access to $17 Trillion open credit market. Any airline with $3.8Billion annual revenue will have no problem securing credit. No need to depend on unhealthy and corrupt PSBs.

Had Jet been an airline in the US, on a Friday 4 PM in New York, file for Chapter 11 protection (restructuring, not a bankruptcy), stiff lessors, stiff employees, stiff preferential shareholders, stiff pension plans and in few months it will come out shining.

All they need is Judge's signature on management wishlist.

The rest of the world may think Chapter 11 is the next best thing to a loaf of bread, it is not. There are a lot more losers in the process, the only winners are management. Read AA Chapter 11 proceedings, senior citizens lost their retirement money because their trust invested in leased planes.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:04 pm

sibibom wrote:
Prediction (atleast mine) is they will shut down if there isn't a major shakeup(ownership change) and lots of money put in cos of their murky finances, I have pointed at Naresh Goyal and his wife as one of the major problem for professionals to take the right decisions to save Jet. Everything is heading exactly towards that. Your prediction was there nothing wrong with Jet and its an Indigo conspiracy. Naresh Goyal's own admission proves all of this as BS.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back. They are surviving cos government doesn't want it to go belly up right before elections.

I concur. In most nation's, Jet would have long ago been shut down. In nation's with laws to protect labor, within 48 hours of a missed paycheck.

I'm not sure Jet can survive to the election. It looks like leasing companies and pilots are fed up. This could blow up before or after the election. It all depends on giving EY and the mystery investor good enough terms.

If the liabilities have grown to too large a sum, they are done. This could have repercussions on the whole India banking system. No wonder every effort has been made to get past the election. However, that just grew the magnitude.

I become much more pessimistic with the lack of news. Rumors do not sign multi-hundred million dollar checks. Any investment of less than 3,000 crore means Jet will fail anyway. Is what is left worth more than that? An interesting case study.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Your prediction was there nothing wrong with Jet and its an Indigo conspiracy. Naresh Goyal's own admission proves all of this as BS.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back. They are surviving cos government doesn't want it to go belly up right before elections.


What % of my posts contained "There is nothing wrong with Jet".

Airlines outside India have access to $17 Trillion open credit market. Any airline with $3.8Billion annual revenue will have no problem securing credit. No need to depend on unhealthy and corrupt PSBs.

Had Jet been an airline in the US, on a Friday 4 PM in New York, file for Chapter 11 protection (restructuring, not a bankruptcy), stiff lessors, stiff employees, stiff preferential shareholders, stiff pension plans and in few months it will come out shining.

All they need is Judge's signature on management wishlist.


Apologies if you weren't the one who said nothing was wrong. But there were a bunch who vehemently denied any trouble called some of us "Agent of Indigo" (Indigo if you are I am open to free tickets I have been accused of taking). And are calling realists who got the trend right as negative naysayers even today.

I am not as well versed in the US laws particularly Chapter 11, but the airline is bankrupt for all practical purposes today and that's the fact one can't deny today.

Now if you have a sugar daddy like GoI, it will never shut. Case and point Air India. But doesn't take away from the facts on the ground.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Your prediction was there nothing wrong with Jet and its an Indigo conspiracy. Naresh Goyal's own admission proves all of this as BS.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back. They are surviving cos government doesn't want it to go belly up right before elections.


What % of my posts contained "There is nothing wrong with Jet".

Airlines outside India have access to $17 Trillion open credit market. Any airline with $3.8Billion annual revenue will have no problem securing credit. No need to depend on unhealthy and corrupt PSBs.

Had Jet been an airline in the US, on a Friday 4 PM in New York, file for Chapter 11 protection (restructuring, not a bankruptcy), stiff lessors, stiff employees, stiff preferential shareholders, stiff pension plans and in few months it will come out shining.

All they need is Judge's signature on management wishlist.

The rest of the world may think Chapter 11 is the next best thing to a loaf of bread, it is not. There are a lot more losers in the process, the only winners are management. Read AA Chapter 11 proceedings, senior citizens lost their retirement money because their trust invested in leased planes.

Bummer for the investors. Would you bet your retirement on Jet? Ch11 maximizes value for debt holders. It recognizes a change in management is required to out a company right and minimize job losses.

Jet has been allowed to build up so much liability that the downside is far greater today than in October to those investors. There is no way to make everyone whole. The question is, what is the value of the rest if Jet today with the high costs going forward. Is 60% of Jet worth 3,000 to 4,500 crore? We are talking roughly 5 billion USD to save Jet. Is it worth it for a new investor to invest so much?

Do not fall for the sunk cost fallacy. While saving some prior investment increases the ROI on the new investment, EY and the mystery investor should expect a ROI of 12% (or more) on the new money. Anything less, due to the risk, is a walk away time. Yes, EY should include profit on Jet passengers to AUH. But judging by EY's fall and EK's low profits (I do not believe QR us profitable), it is probable the value of those transfer passengers is under $1 billion USD. Saving prior investment might be worth $200 million tops. Now to find a business case for another $3.8+ billion USD. It might be possible. But only under the right terms.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 pm

sibibom wrote:
But there were a bunch who vehemently denied any trouble called some of us "Agent of Indigo"

I am one of them, not to deny 9W troubles but for trying to push it off the cliff.

If all airlines trying to kill each other, the only survivor will be Air India. Which part of this, airlines in India won't understand.

sibibom wrote:
(Indigo if you are I am open to free tickets I have been accused of taking).

Do you live close to Coimbatore??
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6188
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:46 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I have no idea why India allows zombie companies to such a degree. It costs far more to the economy to let a failed company pretend for 17 months... Oh well.

Lightsaber


Sure you do. United spent nearly 38 months in Chapter 11. It applied (and was rejected) for federal loan guarantees three times. America West Airlines, US Airways, American Trans Air, Aloha Airlines, Frontier Airlines, Evergreen International Airlines, and World Airways all got loan guarantees, and I'll point out that none of them had aircraft in the WTC attacks. You can go all Ayn Rand (or Andrew Mellon: https://tsi-blog.com/2015/01/liquidate-everything/ ) and argue that quick liquidation preserves stronger participants in the sector. You can accept that U.S. Chapter 11 is regarded as better in preserving creditor value and jobs.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It recognizes a change in management is required to out a company right and minimize job losses.

All it did is to create two sets of managers, fair weather managers, and crisis managers, both claiming success.

Any global sub-prime lender is better than Indian PSB, they fund corporations in much worse condition than 9W.

lightsaber wrote:
Jet has been allowed to build up so much liability that the downside is far greater today than in October to those investors.

Lightsaber


This debt was built up over 10 years, why all so-called critics were praising Goyal and 9W for 9+ years and turned on them overnight.

When AI had one 77L AOG, 9W had 10x A33Xs parked. Everyone was busy going after AI, why?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:52 pm

No one is giving Jet money until a collective decision is made:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/in.news.yaho ... 00692.html

1700 crore or $245 million USD by the end of the month. Watch that money go...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It recognizes a change in management is required to out a company right and minimize job losses.

All it did is to create two sets of managers, fair weather managers, and crisis managers, both claiming success.

Any global sub-prime lender is better than Indian PSB, they fund corporations in much worse condition than 9W.

lightsaber wrote:
Jet has been allowed to build up so much liability that the downside is far greater today than in October to those investors.

Lightsaber


This debt was built up over 10 years, why all so-called critics were praising Goyal and 9W for 9+ years and turned on them overnight.

When AI had one 77L AOG, 9W had 10x A33Xs parked. Everyone was busy going after AI, why?

I'm confused. Should the company just be shut down? Sound business management is to look forward and not backwards.

Either minimize the debt and save the company or let it be liquidated. The fact it went this far is obviously bad. But we are here.

How management does is interesting, but minor compared to will the airline fold or reform? Multi-billions of USD have been lost over a long period of time. The investors will have to throw away the first $500 million on past due bills and the banks and investors will forfeit at least $1.5 billion USD just to start discussing saving the company.

Do yes, prior management was incompetent. Turn around management will make an unfair amount of money. So what? The decision is clear, find investors to invest billions of USD (due to obligations, make no mistake this is USD or euros mostly) or let the company fold which will do significant collateral damage economically.

We are past the time to complain. Pick your poison. There is no right answer. Let the company fold or recover. Delaying the decision into April is, by default, picking the former.

To others:
Jet is bankrupt by any means. Comparing to see if another company was more bankrupt is irrelevant. Either jet offers an investment opportunity where they are worth saving or the company folds. Lenders with collateral have become impatient and have begun the process of repossession. By April 4th or 5th, I believe that too many will reallocate assets to save Jet.

EY's first offer should have been accepted. Cest la vie. IMHO Goyal should be prosecuted for gross mismanagement as well as the BoD. It won't happen, but that is my opinion.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
But there were a bunch who vehemently denied any trouble called some of us "Agent of Indigo"

I am one of them, not to deny 9W troubles but for trying to push it off the cliff.

If all airlines trying to kill each other, the only survivor will be Air India. Which part of this, airlines in India won't understand.

sibibom wrote:
(Indigo if you are I am open to free tickets I have been accused of taking).

Do you live close to Coimbatore??


Bombay, or Mumbai to be politically correct.

My saying facts and prediction based on what I think and the possible outcomes over here (I do cos for my own academic interest in workings of a business entity/environment) will not push Jet off the cliff. They are doing a mighty good job at that themselves :duck:
 
sibibom
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It recognizes a change in management is required to out a company right and minimize job losses.

All it did is to create two sets of managers, fair weather managers, and crisis managers, both claiming success.

Any global sub-prime lender is better than Indian PSB, they fund corporations in much worse condition than 9W.

lightsaber wrote:
Jet has been allowed to build up so much liability that the downside is far greater today than in October to those investors.

Lightsaber


This debt was built up over 10 years, why all so-called critics were praising Goyal and 9W for 9+ years and turned on them overnight.

When AI had one 77L AOG, 9W had 10x A33Xs parked. Everyone was busy going after AI, why?


Jet made many strategic mistakes in 2000s effects of that have come to haunt them today. From buying of Sahara, their reaction to Kingfisher, buying of widebodies without a coherent plan, they never recovered from any of those. But then hindsight is 20/20.

In the last 9 years, no one has praised Jet honestly. Its been an Indigo show. Yes, them getting almost monopolistic powers is alarming, but one has to give them credit for some astute decision making. Yes they made mistakes too, but their mistakes so far have been small and inconsequential in the larger scheme of things
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:05 pm

DGCA might restrict Jet forward bookings:

https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-d ... -90174/amp

The fact EY just reported a bad fiscal year won't free up funds. I'd love insight into the discussions. I just don't know which way this is going to go.

Lightsaber

Late Edit:. India's election starts 4/11. That is beyond the deadline for the $245 million usd payment and when leasing companies have mandated a decision.

https://www.gulfnews.com/amp/world/asia ... 2206430029

I'll go out on a limb and state we know the fate of Jet before the election.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DGCA might restrict Jet forward bookings:

https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-d ... -90174/amp

The fact EY just reported a bad fiscal year won't free up funds. I'd love insight into the discussions. I just don't know which way this is going to go.

Lightsaber

Late Edit:. India's election starts 4/11. That is beyond the deadline for the $245 million usd payment and when leasing companies have mandated a decision.

https://www.gulfnews.com/amp/world/asia ... 2206430029

I'll go out on a limb and state we know the fate of Jet before the election.

And what is that fate......bankruptcy or a fresh lease on life
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7317
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DGCA might restrict Jet forward bookings:
https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-d ... -90174/amp


DGCA confirmed it is fake news.
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/11062140 ... wsrc%5Etfw
 
alfa164
Posts: 3084
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:36 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Which brings me to my final point. I think we all have to acknowledge that certain posts on the board over all these months are not factually correct and were meant to be inflammatory. They painted a picture months and months ago that was just nor TRUE (to still defend those posts because of what is happening today is a joke and misses what you pointed out about the controlled crash). It is really sad and speaks a lot about the character of the people who post them (and I don't care if they are being paid to post). They are really some of the lowest people I can think of. People's jobs, India's economy are not something to be damaged for Rs 1000 or what ever. I am glad that the Indian banks and the Indian govt are trying to settle this - ANY govt would in a similar situation. Aside from Goyal, I blame EY a ton. They won't sell and won't settle. Instead demanding some golden bailout like an entitled baby. Nice to see India has some spine. At some point, the banks need to step in, even if it makes AUH's Raja unhappy. And yes I think Tata would be happy to take Jet's stake because the GOI would obviously restructure Jet as part of that purchase (which is the same bailout EY wants but doesn't deserve).


It seemed patently obvious to me that at least some of the posters on this thread were shills for competitive airline(s), who were seeking to scare passengers away from flying Jet - and hopefully creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. I saw the same thing happen with Braniff in the 80's, and the pattern was eerily similar.

Many an airline has been in worse shape and survived, often coming out as a much stronger operation. If Jet succeeds in doing the same... payback is hell...

;)

avier wrote:
sibibom wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
The prediction would be correct only if 9W shuts down. Which hasn't happened yet? I can still wait.

Technically the airline is bankrupt. Had Jet been an airline in the US, it would have shut shop 4 months back.

Really? What about most of the major US carriers before they became US3, ie. US 6 or whatever, having chased for Chp 11 bankruptcy protection and filled for reorganization that allowed them to sort of save their mega carriers. If not for that, there would have just been Southwest and JetBlue today with many smaller carriers left in the country.
It's ironic you compared it to the US, because that's not what has happened there in the last two decades.



:checkmark: It is almost painful to see posters try to make comparisons that are totally invalid (and that is a polite way of saying, "not truthful.").

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
DGCA might restrict Jet forward bookings:
https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-d ... -90174/amp

DGCA confirmed it is fake news.
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/11062140 ... wsrc%5Etfw


Is someone else hoping for a self-fulfilling prophecy?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:58 pm

I am no shill, I have just been watching as this thing follows the pattern that a trouble airline goes through. They are still going because the Indian government has not let them fail yet. They are still in trouble because the founder has not wanted to relinquish control. They have friends with deep pockets which keeps the hope alive. I can see it going either way.

If there are people who are payed to influence aviation geeks perception on a board mostly frequented by people not in India, this world is stranger than I thought.

They face numerous challenges with different time horizons. And a game of brinkmanship could end up destroying them. Companies in similar positions have folded and others have survived. I am 60/40 for not surviving right now but I was at 50/50 just a few days ago when it looked like they might be able to all come together. I have no dog in the fight, I am unlikely to be visiting India anytime soon and has no effect on me, I feel bad for the employees, but that is their employers fault. Hopefully this is resolved but the longer the limbo lasts the worse the prognosis.

All it takes is one extra thing and they might be done, maybe leases returning because their is suddenly a demand makes the airline non viable or maybe relief from payments on these frames gives them the breathing room they need.

It has been quite the drama with many twists along the way.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:35 am

alfa164 wrote:
It seemed patently obvious to me that at least some of the posters on this thread were shills for competitive airline(s), who were seeking to scare passengers away from flying Jet - and hopefully creating a self-fulfilling prophecy


Talk about delusions of grandeur.
To believe that chronicling the decline of an airline on aboard that is read by a grand total of 25 users from India will cause the downfall of the airline is akin to believing that blocking the sun with your hands will cause a solar eclipse.

Spiderguy252 wrote:
My only question is why things have not come to a head yet? Kingfisher fell apart in half this time, snapping in two like the sinking Titanic.


The time between Kingfisher's first capacity reduction and its eventual demise was 15 months. Kingfisher was also a much weaker airline and it operated under a very different regulatory regime where (1) airlines couldn't get foreign investments and (2) there was no legislation that laid out norms for banks to handle defaulting companies.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread I had written than the only solution to this crisis is Jet raising funds. Since then they have not managed to raise a single rupee and consequently half their fleet is lying idle now.

Although the probability of a bailout becomes slightly lower with each passing day, Jet can still be saved. All it needs is cash. The next few important milestones are March 31 - if the bailout happens before this day all is well, else the account becomes NPA, and June 30 - if the bailout doesn't happen before this day Jet will be handed over to the NCLT and sold off to the highest bidder.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:40 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

This debt was built up over 10 years, why all so-called critics were praising Goyal and 9W for 9+ years and turned on them overnight.

When AI had one 77L AOG, 9W had 10x A33Xs parked. Everyone was busy going after AI, why?


Saar please to provide sources to show these imaginary critics praising Jet airways. Even in 2013 those of us who could understand numbers knew the airline was in trouble. I cannot vouch for the opinions of Ameerpet's exports to Amreeka.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
behramjee
Posts: 4986
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:58 am

lightsaber wrote:
Jet noted fares constant for two years with the price of jet fuel doubling. This is really hurting airlines without disciplined cost control:
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/je ... ar-BBLywg0


Here is the latest update:

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 74361.html

Etihad Airways is unlikely to agree to a provisional debt resolution plan proposed by lenders for the crisis-hit Jet Airways (India) Ltd, said two people directly aware of the development.

A meeting of the board of Etihad in Abu Dhabi on Tuesday remained inconclusive, with several members expressing reservations about the terms proposed by the lenders that included adding two nominee directors from the promoter group of Jet Airways, led by founder Naresh Goyal, the people cited above said on condition of anonymity.

“Another contentious issue was Goyal’s demand for exclusion of the perpetuity clause, which capped Goyal’s shareholding to 22%," said one of the two people cited above.

The provisional pact envisaged a “new investor" injecting between ₹1,600 crore and ₹1,900 crore for about 20% in Jet Airways and the Goyal-led promoter group’s stake falling to 17.1%, with a caveat seeking to cap it at 22%.

An early resolution to the financial woes is crucial for Jet Airways. More than 50 of the airline’s 119 planes are currently grounded by lessors due to non-payment of lease rentals, while it has delayed salaries to pilots and interest payments on its debt.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:16 am

Speaking of Amreeka, I find it curious that DL is completely silent about the "save 9W" discussions, despite having, among US operators, the most to lose (in India) if 9W goes under. CEO Vinay Dube certainly stays in contact with DL mgmt, not just about codeshares, but longer term strategy.
https://www.marketscreener.com/business ... biography/
and the pilots' union (National Aviators Guild) confidence in Vinay continues.
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/U0Ol ... pilot.html
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/to ... guild/news

9W pilots and other employees have been getting "some" salary paid... vs. no salary.
economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67867726.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

IMO, DL has to be engaged with Vinay, but not publicized in view of EK's involvement. Moreover, Vinay's (and more broadly senior mgmt's) hands have been tied by NG, but not for much longer. Neither EK nor any creditors have suggested Vinay's exit, to the contrary, I think Vinay is poised to mount his destrier and enter the list.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1921
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:16 am

There are so many reports form "sources" in multiple papers, including claims of "people with direct knowledge of negotiation", "have seen the agreement papers", "direct access to board" etc that no one really knows what is correct and what is not regarding the resolution. In the last six months, the only constant has been that Jet is losing money like crazy and needs funds yesterday , which Goyal too accepted. That should throw out conspiracy theories out hopefully. However, the resolution process is another matter all together, so just need to wait and watch.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18424
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:38 am

behramjee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jet noted fares constant for two years with the price of jet fuel doubling. This is really hurting airlines without disciplined cost control:
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/je ... ar-BBLywg0


Here is the latest update:

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 74361.html

Etihad Airways is unlikely to agree to a provisional debt resolution plan proposed by lenders for the crisis-hit Jet Airways (India) Ltd, said two people directly aware of the development.

A meeting of the board of Etihad in Abu Dhabi on Tuesday remained inconclusive, with several members expressing reservations about the terms proposed by the lenders that included adding two nominee directors from the promoter group of Jet Airways, led by founder Naresh Goyal, the people cited above said on condition of anonymity.

“Another contentious issue was Goyal’s demand for exclusion of the perpetuity clause, which capped Goyal’s shareholding to 22%," said one of the two people cited above.

The provisional pact envisaged a “new investor" injecting between ₹1,600 crore and ₹1,900 crore for about 20% in Jet Airways and the Goyal-led promoter group’s stake falling to 17.1%, with a caveat seeking to cap it at 22%.

An early resolution to the financial woes is crucial for Jet Airways. More than 50 of the airline’s 119 planes are currently grounded by lessors due to non-payment of lease rentals, while it has delayed salaries to pilots and interest payments on its debt.

It sounds like EY losses $140 million if Jet goes under. Etihad's board doesn't like the terms.

I'm sure lenders wanted guarantees and more equity or loans to continue. In no way would an investment team accept interference from Goyal.

So far, it is better for EY to let 9W fail.

This is fascinating as it looks like Jet is done without EY investing a huge amount right before an election.

To others:. Why is DL being mentioned? Jet needs billions of USD invested. In no way does Jet represent that level of profit for DL.

There really isn't more than 2 or 3 weeks left for Jet without an absolutely huge cash investment. I understand Goyal and the banks want to minimize their losses. Yet if the deal isn't good enough, no one will invest the billions of usd (or euros) required.

It was a waste of precious time to present the previous deal to the EY BoD. They made their terms known. Abu Dhabi just doesn't have enough free cash to make a poor investment. E.g., they own buildings, refineries, and land. But that isn't the same as being able to quickly raise cash against those unliquid investments.

I hope Jet survives. It becomes less likely daily. Jet is ceasing to be an opperating concern. Either something gives, or the banks will have to double down or let Jet fail.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos