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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 am
by unrave
avier wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that. But I wouldn't dig through that website for anything ever.

That is the bare minimum you could do before demanding sources from others.

The point still remains, even with those numbers you post, that they aren't displaying qualities like KF or SG did in their troubled days , and aren't down 50-70% of their capacity or fleet. Their schedules are operating as normal and their dispatch rate remains good. They are restructuring and cutting down unviable routes, but they are also launching new routes or flights ( by redeploying capacity elsewhere), which a very troubled airline would never do. A very troubled airline would only downsize quickly and never launch and market new flights. So again, don't make it look like in the worst possible light.

Jet is not in IT/SG territory.. yet. Unless Jet raises cash it is a question of when and not if.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:07 am
by vadodara
dtw2hyd wrote:
there any official press release from TATAs about negotiations with Jet? No.
Is there a filing by TATAs with securities regulators on the same. No. Jet filed a report to the contrary.
The entire "Tata buying Jet" news cycle was based on ToI/BS claiming unnamed sources. This would have triggered an investigation against TATAs in any other country, as 9W share value fluctuated on this news.

How many of 124 are repoed if 9W is not paying leases so far?
How many pilots quit 9W?
Backup with some numbers and facts.

Actually, 9W's OTP is better than 6E's.


Huh? So if NG runs out of money it is Tata’s fault?

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:30 am
by dtw2hyd
vadodara wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
there any official press release from TATAs about negotiations with Jet? No.
Is there a filing by TATAs with securities regulators on the same. No. Jet filed a report to the contrary.
The entire "Tata buying Jet" news cycle was based on ToI/BS claiming unnamed sources. This would have triggered an investigation against TATAs in any other country, as 9W share value fluctuated on this news.

How many of 124 are repoed if 9W is not paying leases so far?
How many pilots quit 9W?
Backup with some numbers and facts.

Actually, 9W's OTP is better than 6E's.


Huh? So if NG runs out of money it is Tata’s fault?

No one said that. Where is the evidence that TATAs want to buy 9W? Sanjiv Kapoor will be dancing on Twitter if there is any truth to that.

What portion of 950 posts based on ToI/BS unsubstantiated news from unnamed sources? Why should anyone accept those as facts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:19 am
by binayak
vadodara wrote:
jordanh wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Perhaps this culture extends to safety and training as well.


While it is obvious much of this thread is driven by Jet's competitors, questioning an airlines dedication to safety is beyond the pale. F.Y.I., it has the same safety rating as Indigo, and a higher rating than many Indian airlines.

Try to stick to facts if you expect to be taken seriously. Scare tactics will backfire.


So seems like the media reports about Jet pilots forgetting to pressurize the flight must be fake news. There are few more reports on these lines.

What happens to maintenance when airline has no money to pay salaries? Care to explain that?

And by the way what do you mean by ‘driven by jet’s competitors? If you must question, direct to NG and his oversized ego. People are asking fair questions why SBI should bail out Jet.


The news about jet's pilots forgetting to pressurize the flight was true. Not defending anyone here.
Another news about dgca giving a clean chit to 9W was also true. Do consider that.
More news every other week about one of jet's competitors, a "well run " airline, not being able to complete flights without the cabins becoming smoke filled was absolutely true.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:45 am
by unrave
Big development of the day: Jet Airways has defaulted on debt repayment
Jet Airways has failed to repay its lenders amid ongoing cash crunch and financial stress. The company said on the exchanges that it has missed payment of interest and principal installment due on Dec. 31, 2018

https://www.bloombergquint.com/markets/ ... gs.qxn7eQs

This development comes as absolutely no surprise to those who understood the actual state of Jet's financials. Now before some elements try to dismiss this as PR spin, you can find the actual filing made by Jet Airways with the exchange here
https://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpf ... 43c417.pdf

A primer on this development

What is a default?
Under Indian banking regulations, a default is when a borrower fails to meet a payment obligation of interest or principal. Even a single day delay in payment of a single rupee is deemed a default.

What happens next?
A loan account that is in default is treated different depending on whether the default is for 30, 60 or 90 days, by when it becomes a NPA (it is unlikely that things will progress this far)

What are the repercussions?
Jet's credit rating will be downgraded to D. Expect a press release from ICRA to this effect by the end of this day. With a rating of D raising additional bank borrowings becomes almost impossible.

What is the way out?
Repay the loans. To do that - raise cash.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:42 am
by binayak
unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
No one can deny 9W's issues plaguing them. However the general tone of this thread is overly pessimistic. Most's views on here seem like its already over for the airline with no hopes, which is a bit annoying to read .

I can't imagine a bankrupt airline still operating most of their schedule

Are they? This year Jet has reduced domestic and international capacity by 8% and 10% respectively, in a market that has grown 20%. The corresponding figures for IndiGo are growth of 20% and 30%


Which is better you decide :
1. Increasing capacity rapidly thus making your RASK and non fuel cask beyond control just to get maximum market share
OR
2. Controlling your RASK and non fuel cask even if it means reducing capacity.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:22 pm
by blrsea
unrave wrote:
Big development of the day: Jet Airways has defaulted on debt repayment
Jet Airways has failed to repay its lenders amid ongoing cash crunch and financial stress. The company said on the exchanges that it has missed payment of interest and principal installment due on Dec. 31, 2018

https://www.bloombergquint.com/markets/ ... gs.qxn7eQs

This development comes as absolutely no surprise to those who understood the actual state of Jet's financials. Now before some elements try to dismiss this as PR spin, you can find the actual filing made by Jet Airways with the exchange here
https://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpf ... 43c417.pdf


What are the repercussions?
Jet's credit rating will be downgraded to D. Expect a press release from ICRA to this effect by the end of this day. With a rating of D raising additional bank borrowings becomes almost impossible.



Jet's rating has been cut. How dare ICRA cut the rating based on false propaganda from Times group! 9W has so much cash it will pay all salaries to employees in a month, and probably clear all the debt too in a month! :roll:

Jet Airways misses payment to lenders, rating cut to default

The missed payment prompted a downgrade on ratings of its loans and bonds by credit assessor ICRA to D, a score that signifies that borrowers are in default or are expected to be soon.

...
“Jet Airways continues to have negative networth due to accumulated losses and diminution in the value of its investments in its subsidiary Jet Lite (India) Ltd.,” ICRA said in its statement. “Furthermore, the liquidity strain has aggravated due to delays by the company in implementation of its liquidity initiatives.”

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:27 pm
by unrave
blrsea wrote:
Jet's rating has been cut. How dare ICRA cut the rating based on false propaganda from Times group! 9W has so much cash it will pay all salaries to employees in a month, and probably clear all the debt too in a month! :roll:


Naresh Goyal will make his planes run on the same snake oil that he has been selling to investors for 13 years

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:55 pm
by VictorKilo
For a company that’s not current on wages and just defaulted on its loans, there doesn’t seem to be the same sense of urgency that WOW Air has shown in terms of taking drastic actions to address its financial situation (and there is no evidence that WOW defaulted on wages). Even Norwegian has seemed more urgent than Jet, and that was based on speculation that it might violate its loan covenants, not an actual failure to pay its loans or its wages.

Jet can only survive its financial problems if it first admits it has a problem and takes urgent actions to deal with its problems. If it does not admit it has a problem, it can’t deal with it, and sadly it will not survive.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:16 pm
by hohd
I think SG is in better shape that Jet. SG is also deploying new routes and unlike Jet they are still paying salaries and other normal dues.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:54 pm
by lightsaber
blrsea wrote:
unrave wrote:
Big development of the day: Jet Airways has defaulted on debt repayment
Jet Airways has failed to repay its lenders amid ongoing cash crunch and financial stress. The company said on the exchanges that it has missed payment of interest and principal installment due on Dec. 31, 2018

https://www.bloombergquint.com/markets/ ... gs.qxn7eQs

This development comes as absolutely no surprise to those who understood the actual state of Jet's financials. Now before some elements try to dismiss this as PR spin, you can find the actual filing made by Jet Airways with the exchange here
https://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpf ... 43c417.pdf


What are the repercussions?
Jet's credit rating will be downgraded to D. Expect a press release from ICRA to this effect by the end of this day. With a rating of D raising additional bank borrowings becomes almost impossible.



Jet's rating has been cut. How dare ICRA cut the rating based on false propaganda from Times group! 9W has so much cash it will pay all salaries to employees in a month, and probably clear all the debt too in a month! :roll:

Jet Airways misses payment to lenders, rating cut to default

The missed payment prompted a downgrade on ratings of its loans and bonds by credit assessor ICRA to D, a score that signifies that borrowers are in default or are expected to be soon.

...
“Jet Airways continues to have negative networth due to accumulated losses and diminution in the value of its investments in its subsidiary Jet Lite (India) Ltd.,” ICRA said in its statement. “Furthermore, the liquidity strain has aggravated due to delays by the company in implementation of its liquidity initiatives.”

You make your point with sarcasm, but there are to big issues in that link:
1. Jet failed to timely pay a bank debt. Kudos to Jet management for self reporting.
2. A 'C' rating means most financial institutions either cannot lend or won't due to the far higher reserve requirements.

It just became much more expensive to loan to Jet due to the reserve requirements.

Does this breech covenants? Unless Jet raises more cash quickly, the click has started on being formally declared a non-performing asset. I hope they can sell themselves before then, for after is too late for the buyer to realize a return on investment.

This just became serious as in end game serious. B9W is now 28 days away from an IT. Scooby says rhoo-rhoi.

Could they perpetuate this state for months? Yes. I don't get Indian corporate finances when bankrupt companies run despite extended defaults.

Lightsaber

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:55 pm
by nordikcam
What's SG ?

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:08 pm
by binayak
nordikcam wrote:
What's SG ?

SG is the IATA code for Spicejet (an Indian low cost airline)

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:10 pm
by lightsaber
hohd wrote:
I think SG is in better shape that Jet. SG is also deploying new routes and unlike Jet they are still paying salaries and other normal dues.

IMHO. SpiceJet is in far better shape. See Urave's post in the bank default (Kudos to Jet for self reporting.).

Lightsaber

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:37 pm
by Viman
lightsaber wrote:
You make your point with sarcasm, but there are to big issues in that link:
1. Jet failed to timely pay a bank debt. Kudos to Jet management for self reporting.
2. A 'C' rating means most financial institutions either cannot lend or won't due to the far higher reserve requirements.

It just became much more expensive to loan to Jet due to the reserve requirements.

Does this breech covenants? Unless Jet raises more cash quickly, the click has started on being formally declared a non-performing asset. I hope they can sell themselves before then, for after is too late for the buyer to realize a return on investment.

This just became serious as in end game serious. B9W is now 28 days away from an IT. Scooby says rhoo-rhoi.

Could they perpetuate this state for months? Yes. I don't get Indian corporate finances when bankrupt companies run despite extended defaults.

Lightsaber


Slight correction, the rating is now "D" not "C" : https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 348476.cms


VictorKilo wrote:
For a company that’s not current on wages and just defaulted on its loans, there doesn’t seem to be the same sense of urgency that WOW Air has shown in terms of taking drastic actions to address its financial situation (and there is no evidence that WOW defaulted on wages). Even Norwegian has seemed more urgent than Jet, and that was based on speculation that it might violate its loan covenants, not an actual failure to pay its loans or its wages.

Jet can only survive its financial problems if it first admits it has a problem and takes urgent actions to deal with its problems. If it does not admit it has a problem, it can’t deal with it, and sadly it will not survive.


Naresh Goyal would rather drive the company into the ground than give up control or majority share. He is now waiting for a loan with Etihad acting as guarantor.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:39 pm
by blrsea
lightsaber wrote:
hohd wrote:
I think SG is in better shape that Jet. SG is also deploying new routes and unlike Jet they are still paying salaries and other normal dues.

IMHO. SpiceJet is in far better shape. See Urave's post in the bank default (Kudos to Jet for self reporting.).

Lightsaber


It is regulatory requirement in India to disclose loan defaults within one day.

Sebi tells listed companies to disclose loan defaults within one working day

Sebi has directed that, starting 1 October, listed companies will need to disclose defaults on loan repayments within one working day. Listed companies would need to inform exchanges in case they have defaulted in payment of interest, instalment obligations on debt securities, loans from banks and financial institutions and external commercial borrowings.

Companies would need to disclose date of default, name of the bank/financial institution that lent the money, default amount and gross principal amount on which the default occurred.

“The entities shall make disclosures within one working day from the date of default at the first instance of default in a specified format,” Sebi said.

Listed entities would also need to separately provide information pertaining to defaults to the concerned credit rating agencies.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:53 pm
by Exeiowa
Interestingly none of those extra details were in the default letter provided, wonder when we see that come out. That will tell us how many nails are in the coffin.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:38 am
by BawliBooch
vadodara wrote:

Very comforting to know that Jet Airways operates without adherence of any rules or regulations.

Perhaps this culture extends to safety and training as well.


THAT is a serious charge to make without any facts to back it up. Jet Airways has followed the rule book. They have not done anything to secure financing that the other carriers operating in India havent.

Try researching into the ownership of the private carriers as an example - including one private airline which produly shows off its cash reserves. How are they getting access to these burgeoning cash reserves? What gives? It all inevitably ends with some obscure companies registered in a tax haven overseas. How legal is that?

Jet Airways has followed the rule book and secured legitimate loans to get over their cash crisis. All we have seen across 20+ pages of discussions on this thread is negative campaign and insinuation of "Dial a Loan" without ANY basis to back it up. The impression created across the 4 months was to somehow insinuate that Jet is going down and people should avoid booking them. For weeks we heard that Jet could not get out of this crisis because they couldnt "Dial a Loan" from a Public Sector bank. I had predicted back then, that that is exactly what will happen. And it did! They have successfully managed to secure financing for their cash flow crisis from a Govt bank. That is fact. The rest is pure insinuation and gossip mongering.

We know who owns TailWinds and we know the Public banks who are giving secured loans to Jet Airways. Strictly legal. Who owns Oceans Leasing? Hubli Leasing? Registered in Tax havens from Macau to Mauritius?

So lets not throw canards like legality without basis.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:00 am
by unrave
No bank is lending money to a D rated entity. Wouldn't have happened even in 2013. Here is the latest on Jet where banks want their outstanding dues to be cleared by either sale of equity or assets.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 358168.cms

The lenders have said they won't provide any assistance until Jet's founders and shareholders put in cash into the airline.

These are actual facts backed by credible sources. NG being a maverick and conjuring money out of thin air is pure fantasy.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:08 am
by lutfi
240m USD of debt needs to be rolled over/ repaid in first 3 months of 2019. 9W asking banks to convert debt to equity - which they hate doing unless the alternative is a paisa on the rupee...

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:59 am
by dtw2hyd
Exeiowa wrote:
Interestingly none of those extra details were in the default letter provided, wonder when we see that come out. That will tell us how many nails are in the coffin.


Assuming this is the first filing under the aforementioned law within a day of missing payment, are all previous news about missed payments are either false or there were earlier filings with SEC.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:31 am
by unrave
dtw2hyd wrote:
Assuming this is the first filing under the aforementioned law within a day of missing payment, are all previous news about missed payments are either false or there were earlier filings with SEC.

No, there is absolutely no requirement for Indian companies to make any filing with the SEC

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:17 pm
by devron
Are they still paying there fuel bill? That would be the end asap.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:46 pm
by unrave
devron wrote:
Are they still paying there fuel bill? That would be the end asap.

They're paying the fuel bills and airport dues on time. They're delaying salaries and lease payments. They have also grounded a few aircraft for want of spares.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:39 pm
by minister
unrave wrote:
blrsea wrote:
Jet's rating has been cut. How dare ICRA cut the rating based on false propaganda from Times group! 9W has so much cash it will pay all salaries to employees in a month, and probably clear all the debt too in a month! :roll:


Naresh Goyal will make his planes run on the same snake oil that he has been selling to investors for 13 years


One of the best posts of 2019 already :lol:

But here in lies the fundamental problem for Jet, a promoter who is trying find the impossible solution given the global principles of corporate finance.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:43 pm
by BawliBooch
Couple of interesting points in this article on ET today.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 358168.cms


Jet has asked SBI and the lending consortium for liquidity assistance or alternatively, to convert loans to equity. The lenders have said they won't provide any assistance until Jet's founders and shareholders put in cash into the airline.


First - the official confirmation of the existence of a "Lending consortium" which has been denied on this thread. We have previously read posts about there being no possibility of finding financing from Govt Banks. We heard last week that SBI coming around. Now this latest article spins the story around completely to make it appear conditional to equity offload.

Wonder where the truth lies among all this speculation? :?

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:06 pm
by BawliBooch
The existence of a lending consortium was categorically denied multiple times on this thread. Now there is acknowledgement that there is indeed a consortium.


consortium
[kənˈsɔːtɪəm]

NOUN
an association, typically of several companies.
synonyms:
alliance · consortium · coalition · union · league · guild · syndicate

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:09 pm
by blrsea
The article is talking about existing consoritum of banks that Jet has already taken loans from & has defaulted, and not a different new consoritum to lend more :banghead: . Thought anyone who reads the article can understand that, but I was wrong.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:33 pm
by unrave
One bugler was allowed to get away after committing a crime, therefore law enforcement should abandon all efforts to prevent burglaries in the future. There is no flaw in this logic at all.

Complaints regarding moderation can be taken up at the Site Related forum instead of clogging up this thread.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:36 pm
by blrsea
dtw2hyd wrote:
blrsea wrote:
... SBI had ordered a forensic audit for last four years, everyone knows about that. As regards to the "lending consoritum", if one reads the article in full and sees the earlier statement where Jet(not the article author) says in statement released to BSE


And who is auditing SBI or any other PSB in India??

It is the failure of the Indian financial system and archaic rules, even with EY loan guarantee, 9W still has to borrow working capital from an Indian bank.

As a reference, the entire 9W debt is less than $2.6?? Billion LoUs to a jewelry seller without any revenue, just two PNB officials underwrote for two diamond rings and 60 grams of gold. Where were the forensic auditors??? Read CBI court filings rather than asking me for evidence.

Of course, we cannot quote these examples because this thread is JUST about "9W Cash situation". But it is perfectly fine to throw selective tidbits to keep this Debby the downer thread going. This thread is intentionally kept one-sided by selectively enforcing forum rules.



EY has not yet given any loan guarantee, even they are trying to extract their pound of flesh from 9W. Please don't bring in fake news. India imposes restrictions on corporates taking loans from abroad, and its not limited to 9W or airlines, for broader economic reasons. There is an Indian political thread in non-av forum to discuss all conspiracy theories.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:51 pm
by dtw2hyd
blrsea wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
blrsea wrote:
... SBI had ordered a forensic audit for last four years, everyone knows about that. As regards to the "lending consoritum", if one reads the article in full and sees the earlier statement where Jet(not the article author) says in statement released to BSE


And who is auditing SBI or any other PSB in India??

It is the failure of the Indian financial system and archaic rules, even with EY loan guarantee, 9W still has to borrow working capital from an Indian bank.

As a reference, the entire 9W debt is less than $2.6?? Billion LoUs to a jewelry seller without any revenue, just two PNB officials underwrote for two diamond rings and 60 grams of gold. Where were the forensic auditors??? Read CBI court filings rather than asking me for evidence.

Of course, we cannot quote these examples because this thread is JUST about "9W Cash situation". But it is perfectly fine to throw selective tidbits to keep this Debby the downer thread going. This thread is intentionally kept one-sided by selectively enforcing forum rules.



EY has not yet given any loan guarantee, even they are trying to extract their pound of flesh from 9W. Please don't bring in fake news. India imposes restrictions on corporates taking loans from abroad, and its not limited to 9W or airlines, for broader economic reasons. There is an Indian political thread in non-av forum to discuss all conspiracy theories.


So stop quoting fake news from Times of India and Business Standard without supporting evidence. Do you have a document from SBI claiming it ordered a forensic audit of 9W???

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:56 pm
by blrsea
dtw2hyd wrote:
blrsea wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

And who is auditing SBI or any other PSB in India??

It is the failure of the Indian financial system and archaic rules, even with EY loan guarantee, 9W still has to borrow working capital from an Indian bank.

As a reference, the entire 9W debt is less than $2.6?? Billion LoUs to a jewelry seller without any revenue, just two PNB officials underwrote for two diamond rings and 60 grams of gold. Where were the forensic auditors??? Read CBI court filings rather than asking me for evidence.

Of course, we cannot quote these examples because this thread is JUST about "9W Cash situation". But it is perfectly fine to throw selective tidbits to keep this Debby the downer thread going. This thread is intentionally kept one-sided by selectively enforcing forum rules.



EY has not yet given any loan guarantee, even they are trying to extract their pound of flesh from 9W. Please don't bring in fake news. India imposes restrictions on corporates taking loans from abroad, and its not limited to 9W or airlines, for broader economic reasons. There is an Indian political thread in non-av forum to discuss all conspiracy theories.


So stop quoting fake news from Times of India and Business Standard without supporting evidence. Do you have a document from SBI claiming it ordered a forensic audit of 9W???


Multiple media outlet are reporting on the forensic audit. And if it was fake, all 9W had to do was issue a denial. After all, no company would like that kind of negative news! 9W would have sued Times group if that was the case! Whereas you are the only one claiming EY has provided loan guarantee!

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:04 pm
by dtw2hyd
blrsea wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
blrsea wrote:


EY has not yet given any loan guarantee, even they are trying to extract their pound of flesh from 9W. Please don't bring in fake news. India imposes restrictions on corporates taking loans from abroad, and its not limited to 9W or airlines, for broader economic reasons. There is an Indian political thread in non-av forum to discuss all conspiracy theories.


So stop quoting fake news from Times of India and Business Standard without supporting evidence. Do you have a document from SBI claiming it ordered a forensic audit of 9W???


Multiple media outlet are reporting on the forensic audit. And if it was fake, all 9W had to do was issue a denial. After all, no company would like that kind of negative news! 9W would have sued Times group if that was the case! Whereas you are the only one claiming EY has provided loan guarantee!


Just because you haven't seen it is not fake news.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ways-loans

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:17 pm
by BawliBooch
https://www.firstpost.com/business/jet- ... 14051.html

Jet Airways has been seeking these funds as its earlier proposal of raising $350 million Etihad-guaranteed loan from overseas lenders is still at the negotiations table and expected to take time," the source said who is privy to both the discussions.


https://www.businesstoday.in/top-story/ ... 05448.html


There has been a deliberate attempt to twist some of the statements. This should clarify matters. EY guarantee was for loan from overseas lenders. The SBI loan is an interim measure to tide over the immediate crisis. Is the SBI loan proposal also guaranteed by EY? Lets see. I don't think so.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:42 pm
by dtw2hyd
BawliBooch wrote:
There has been a deliberate attempt to twist some of the statements. This should clarify matters. EY guarantee was for loan from overseas lenders. The SBI loan is an interim measure to tide over the immediate crisis. Is the SBI loan proposal also guaranteed by EY? Lets see. I don't think so.


The infamous archaic RBI limit on $1B external commercial borrowing for commercial aviation working capital reached long back, so Indian banks are the only source. Otherwise, why would anyone take WC loans from Indian Banks at 10%-15% rate?

The Financial Resolution And Deposit Insurance Bill, 2017 allows consumer deposits to be converted as equity to cover bad debts. So technically SBI consortium can actually writeoff 9W debt by converting hard earned money of Indians. First, 9W has to default. See where I am going.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:16 am
by blrsea
EY hasn't signed on fully to provide loan guarantees, and it was for loan guarantee with Indian banks (SBI), not external banks.

Looks like 9W is asking creditors to take haircut on their dues!

Jet faces turbulence: Airline may ask creditors to take a haircut

Cash-strapped Jet Airways, which has defaulted on loan repayment to banks due on December 31, has sought a meeting with all its vendors and creditors, including lessors, MRO partners among others, in the coming week in the Capital, to impress upon them to take a haircut as it is unable to meet its payment obligations.

Sources in the know of the development told FE that promoter-chairman Naresh Goyal has himself sought such a meeting to try and convince vendors and creditors to stand by the airline as he negotiates with banks and strategic partners for funds.

...

Jet’s JV partner Etihad, which holds 24% stake, is likely to provide guarantee for the loan apart from offering SBI the lien on its flying miles programme, JetPrivilege. SBI is the lead lender in over `8,000 crore of Jet’s debt.
...

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:02 pm
by Exeiowa
You never want to borrow money to pay off money you owe because you don't have it, especially at a higher interest rate. This is not rolling over capital expenditure loans to lower your interest or extend your repayment period, this is for covering operating expenses that never ends well.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:25 pm
by vadodara
blrsea wrote:
EY hasn't signed on fully to provide loan guarantees, and it was for loan guarantee with Indian banks (SBI), not external banks.

Looks like 9W is asking creditors to take haircut on their dues!

Jet faces turbulence: Airline may ask creditors to take a haircut

Cash-strapped Jet Airways, which has defaulted on loan repayment to banks due on December 31, has sought a meeting with all its vendors and creditors, including lessors, MRO partners among others, in the coming week in the Capital, to impress upon them to take a haircut as it is unable to meet its payment obligations.

Sources in the know of the development told FE that promoter-chairman Naresh Goyal has himself sought such a meeting to try and convince vendors and creditors to stand by the airline as he negotiates with banks and strategic partners for funds.

...

Jet’s JV partner Etihad, which holds 24% stake, is likely to provide guarantee for the loan apart from offering SBI the lien on its flying miles programme, JetPrivilege. SBI is the lead lender in over `8,000 crore of Jet’s debt.
...


They may agree to those terms. The question is how much of his 51% NG cede?

It seems like at least 4 737MAX’s have been grounded by lessors.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:12 am
by BawliBooch
Any data on which 737MAX's have been grounded? Any info on the regs of the grounded aircraft?

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:30 am
by binayak
BawliBooch wrote:
Any data on which 737MAX's have been grounded? Any info on the regs of the grounded aircraft?


The 5 inducted in jet's fleet are flying. 2 Max having reg VT JXF and JXG are kept at Boeing factory, Seattle and haven't been delivered to 9W . That's it.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:31 am
by alfa164
dtw2hyd wrote:
As a reference, the entire 9W debt is less than $2.6?? Billion LoUs to a jewelry seller without any revenue, just two PNB officials underwrote for two diamond rings and 60 grams of gold. Where were the forensic auditors??? Read CBI court filings rather than asking me for evidence.
Of course, we cannot quote these examples because this thread is JUST about "9W Cash situation". But it is perfectly fine to throw selective tidbits to keep this Debby the downer thread going. This thread is intentionally kept one-sided by selectively enforcing forum rules.


:checkmark: I saw this same pattern decades ago when "Airline A" (a competitor in the USA) started spreading rumors about Braniff's "imminent" demise, coupled with threats to travel agents "encouraging" to not book passengers on BI, and played a few "dirty tricks" to deny BI bookings from passengers who were seeking them out. If you can create enough doubt, it often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Pointing out the obvious guilty parties here only gets your comments - not theirs - removed.

I can tell you there is one airline in India I, my employees, friends, and guests will not be flying anymore - and it isn't Jet.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:40 am
by lightsaber
[list=][/list]
binayak wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Any data on which 737MAX's have been grounded? Any info on the regs of the grounded aircraft?


The 5 inducted in jet's fleet are flying. 2 Max having reg VT JXF and JXG are kept at Boeing factory, Seattle and haven't been delivered to 9W . That's it.

What is the total grounded aircraft?

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:41 am
by BawliBooch
alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: I saw this same pattern decades ago when "Airline A" (a competitor in the USA) started spreading rumors about Braniff's "imminent" demise, coupled with threats to travel agents "encouraging" to not book passengers on BI, and played a few "dirty tricks" to deny BI bookings from passengers who were seeking them out. If you can create enough doubt, it often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Pointing out the obvious guilty parties here only gets your comments - not theirs - removed.

I can tell you there is one airline in India I, my employees, friends, and guests will not be flying anymore - and it isn't Jet.


True! This thread has gone into 900+ posts with doomsday predictions based on hot air and little else.

Perhaps its time to lock this thread and end the ridiculous speculation on this topic.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:52 am
by binayak
lightsaber wrote:
[list=][/list]
binayak wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Any data on which 737MAX's have been grounded? Any info on the regs of the grounded aircraft?


The 5 inducted in jet's fleet are flying. 2 Max having reg VT JXF and JXG are kept at Boeing factory, Seattle and haven't been delivered to 9W . That's it.

What is the total grounded aircraft?


The last time I heard it was : 5 737(not max), 2 a330, 1 B77W .
However grounded aircrafts are being brought back to the air so current data on grounded aircrafts hasn't been released.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:57 am
by BawliBooch
binayak wrote:
The last time I heard it was : 5 737(not max), 2 a330, 1 B77W .
However grounded aircrafts are being brought back to the air so current data on grounded aircrafts hasn't been released.


Atleast 4 of the non MAX 737 which were "grounded" were due for being prepped to be delivered to another carrier in the Indian Ocean region. I think that deal has fallen through and these aircraft are now back in the air. IMO, the withdrawal of these (non MAX) 737's had nothing to do with the cash flow issues the airline was facing.

Are the 2 widebodies and 1 B77W flying again? Were they actually even grounded or was it scheduled downtime for regular maintenance? A look at the maintenance logs of these aircraft might give us the true picture.

Perhaps, we should take some time off and scan through FR24 to see which aircraft in the fleet have not flown for more than one week. This should give us a better idea on which aircraft are "grounded" and end this baseless speculation.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:05 am
by BawliBooch
That's not fake news! Jet has been having trouble disbursing the full emoluments for some time now. While most have been receiving their base salaries, the disbursal of substantial incentives & flying allowances are being delayed by upto a month.

They have themselves acknowledged that it will take until April 2019 to normalize the salary distribution. Key now is to ensure that they secure the financing needed to tide over the cash crisis. The SBI loan at an usurious 15-20% rate is a start for them! But they have to move quickly to make real changes to their operational structure and get an investor to retire this WC debt from state banks. Otherwise getting tied to State Banks is a long cycle of destruction.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:09 am
by binayak
BawliBooch wrote:
Are the 2 widebodies and 1 B77W flying again? Were they actually even grounded or was it scheduled downtime for regular maintenance? A look at the maintenance logs of these aircraft might give us the true picture.

Perhaps, we should take some time off and scan through FR24 to see which aircraft in the fleet have not flown for more than one week. This should give us a better idea on which aircraft are "grounded" and end this baseless speculation.


Yes, there was indeed some confusion whether the aircraft were grounded or maintenance.
One of the 2 a330s mentioned might fly second daily DEL LHR (waiting for slot approval).

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:15 am
by binayak
BawliBooch wrote:

They have themselves acknowledged that it will take until April 2019 to normalize the salary distribution. .


So what? Times group won't leave even a minute chance to further damage the airline. I read another article saying that jet wasn't following dgca rules of refunding pax!!! Another article said that EYs current situation is because of jet!!

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 am
by BawliBooch
binayak wrote:
So what? Times group won't leave even a minute chance to further damage the airline. I read another article saying that jet wasn't following dgca rules of refunding pax!!! Another article said that EYs current situation is because of jet!!


Its not just Times group. Many journalists on the aviation beat are woefully clueless about aviation and depend on forums like ANET for their information. So threads like these full of baseless, over the top speculation feeds their articles which in turn becomes more grist for the mill! Its a vicious cycle.

Many former colleagues whose articles have been quoted on this thread have picked up points for the stories from here. Which is why it is important to firmly counter these baseless comments. Don't engage with the abusive members. Just counter the points with facts and report the posts to moderators for action.

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:25 am
by lightsaber
Jet has missed salaries again:

https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-j ... -78799/amp

The link doesn't give a good idea of who wasn't paid except for management, pilots, and engineers.

Now is that degreed engineers or mechanics called engineers?