Aptivaboy
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:22 pm

The cello was strapped down with a belt extender. I guarantee you that cello is far less a projectile hazard than a live passenger.


Agree! The cello was less of a projectile risk, belted in as it was, than the babies flying on their parents' laps. Ever see non-belted in baby go flying around a cabin during heavy turbulence? I have, and it isn't pretty. That kid who floated to the ceiling of a United A320 I was on was far more of a safety risk than the cello was.
 
Tucker1
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:37 pm

Safety issue, that's it. Find another method of shipping your cargo. I fly a dozen fishing rods and tackle from Wisconsin to Miami on a flight beforehand and they are ready to go for me when I get there to continue on to Marathon. At least $8,000 worth. Figure it out. A cello does not have a place in the cabin.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:43 pm

FAA rules say that it does. And trust me, a hand made concert quality cello is worth a lot more monetarily than your rods and reels. No disrespect intended, really, but a cello is far more in need of personal carry than fishing gear. The wood construction makes it very difficult to go into the hold of a plane with the temperature changes playing havoc with the wood. And again, FAA rules allow it, period. The cello WAS NOT a safety issue belted in as it was, as it had been on a previous leg of the cellist's flight. We need to stop using the safety issue as a crutch for American's pi*s poor conduct.
 
Gatorman96
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:51 pm

greendot wrote:
How is the cello any different than a baby in a baby carrier?

You're kidding, right? This has to be a joke.

greendot wrote:
What about all those carry on's that fit below the seat? They're not going to just sit in place...


What about them? Carry-ons stowed under seats will most certainly stay in place in the event of an accident. Think about it; vertical, lateral forces or rapid deceleration will only push carry-ons further against the front of the sides of the seat in front of you. The only time a carry-on will slide out in the aisle would be during rapid acceleration, such as a go around

greendot wrote:
Safety is a talking point. If you wanted to be safe, you would never fly. *Everything* related to flying is inherently risky and usually is associated with the penalty of death. It's funny how smaller seats are not seen as unsafe. What about AA's ultra small lavatories. People can literally get stuck in those! I'm 69 inches tall, not fat, and I'm shoulder to shoulder in those bathrooms. If I were wider, I might actually get stuck in there. So with regard to small seats, I'm sure a normal person will be less than useful when their body is turned into a pretzel for hours and hours. Safety is an extremely nebulous term that varies from person to person. It has no technical definition to the average passenger. If a cello were a safety issue, it would be in the aircraft manuals as either a Warning or Caution note.

In any case, I don't think this is a "safety" issue.

edit: the ultimate "safety" issue is sick people flying. I get sick all the time because some fool thinks they are not contagious. They openly cough and sneeze. People are so uneducated and so inconsiderate they will not even attempt to contain their viruses, germs, and bacteria. One person can infect an entire airplane. Remember that viruses can survive in space! Some are being uncovered from Antarctic ice, so surviving in an enclosed container is no problem. Maybe for safety, anyone with any degree of illness whatsoever should be banned. You should be scared to death of MRSA spread by skin flakes or staph infections. Airplanes are considerably more "unsafe" than hospitals when it comes to biological contamination.

I really hope this is all in jest
 
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aerolimani
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:34 am

A strapped in cello is less of a projectile risk than unseated babies, and items which fall out of overheads. Heck, it’s probably less of a risk than than all the folks filming the landing, especially those with their 1/2 lb phablets.
 
ubeema
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:54 am

jagraham wrote:
In the airline business, customer care is second. Safety is first. That is why airline personnel have wide latitude to decide who or what flies or doesn't fly. And why the passenger has virtually no right to argue about it. Arguing passengers get the cops called on them.

However, the airline is liable for the decisions it makes. And it does appear that AA could have handled the situation better at two or three points.

I have argued before FA (with all due courtesy) who confused my daughter FAA approved car seat for a booster seat, and ordered me to have it checked. Thankfully purser recognized the mistake and overruled the FA on the spot. Irony is car seat is not mandatory, yet for my daughter’s safety who was 3yo we make a point to have her travel with it.
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:07 am

greendot wrote:
jagraham wrote:
ubeema wrote:
I cannot agree more. I don’t care what line of business you are but when a customer (especially paying) is denied service, apologies and immediate compensation (higher) is in order. Anything less (like threat to call LEO) will cause you to be exposed publicly. We ought to remember it takes one bad customer service interaction for one to tell 100 friends but all other interactions will never be mentioned.


In the airline business, customer care is second. Safety is first. That is why airline personnel have wide latitude to decide who or what flies or doesn't fly. And why the passenger has virtually no right to argue about it. Arguing passengers get the cops called on them.

However, the airline is liable for the decisions it makes. And it does appear that AA could have handled the situation better at two or three points.


How is this safety related? What is your definition of safety?
The cello was strapped down with a belt extender. I guarantee you that cello is far less a projectile hazard than a live passenger. People like to throw around the safety card to cover up for things much the same way government servants hide some information by classifying it. I've seen stewardesses cite "safety concerns" because they are being recorded, despite the fact the supreme court has rules it's not illegal.

This girl was 110% innocent in this case. AA made another huge blunder and the fault lay squarely on AA's senior management for creating policies that vilify their customers. AA *could* have de-escalated the situation by offering other storage solutions and firstly, by having a system that coordinates logistics such as this. Heck, they could have checked a bunch of bags instead of putting them in the overhead bins while allowing her to stow the cello in the overhead bin. Depending on the aircraft, some even have closets in the front that could have accommodated it. There is literally no excuse for AA on this one. You have gate agents and stewards that feel they are higher than Moses and customers are dirty swine.


I agree that AA blundered. Which is why I spelled out how the ticket was purchased. The AA reservation system should have been programmed with the aircraft types that cannot safely accommodate cellos (or other oversize and delicate items). Whether the cello can be properly secured is an on the spot decision, but AA has a policy. It appears that the AA onsite personnel did not follow the policy.

Because of the safety concerns, and because those concerns are not entrusted to passengers, airline onsite personnel get to make the call. Which passengers have virtually no right to argue. But passengers do have the right to sue.
 
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ricport
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:23 pm

Considering the fact the passenger was escorted off of the plane by LEOs meant she didn't go willingly which is the passengers fault. Was there a miscommunication? Probably as it's clear from the video English is not her native language, but that doesn't give her the right to behave in a way that police officers must be called to diffuse the situation.


You clearly don't know the new reality since the UA/Dr. Feelgood incident. Rules and even laws are to be obeyed only when you feel like it. And if someone in authority dares demand you obey the rules/law, you merely throw a tantrum, post it online, and millions of social media dimwits will come to your rescue.
 
M564038
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:19 pm

She was not in the wrong. Therefore she did not have to leave, no matter who said so. You are not obliged to follow orders by wrongfull use of authority.
The US is not a Police state.

Mindblowing how many people doesn’t seem to grasp that simple principle.
ricport wrote:
Considering the fact the passenger was escorted off of the plane by LEOs meant she didn't go willingly which is the passengers fault. Was there a miscommunication? Probably as it's clear from the video English is not her native language, but that doesn't give her the right to behave in a way that police officers must be called to diffuse the situation.


You clearly don't know the new reality since the UA/Dr. Feelgood incident. Rules and even laws are to be obeyed only when you feel like it. And if someone in authority dares demand you obey the rules/law, you merely throw a tantrum, post it online, and millions of social media dimwits will come to your rescue.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:45 pm

questions wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
If customers were willing to pay more what do you think airlines would do:
........
The US airline industry is the only industry that operates with the basic principle that the customer is the enemy.

Have you ever dealt with railroads? :knockout: The airlines emulated best (worst) practices from the railroads. They were good students.
It is arguable whether the student has exceeded the teacher in this respect.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:23 pm

EricR wrote:
This site needs a “social media” forum where junk news such as this can be posted


Yes we don't want to take away from all the other high quality posts on here.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 194
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:35 pm

This appears to be an unfortunate mistake by front line personal. DOT conducted a well publicized rule making in 2014, in response to similar incidents, which went into effect in 2015. When it adopted the rule, DOT stated that:

“At DOT, we know how important instruments are to musicians and are committed to doing everything we can to ensure that they are not damaged while being transported on airlines,” said U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx. “This final rule implements the statute, and it will go a long way towards keeping instruments safe when they fly – from allowing them in the cabin if there’s space for safe stowage, to letting passengers buy a seat for certain large instruments.” https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... el-musical

AA's Contract of Carriage states:

If your instrument doesn’t fit in the carry-on baggage space, you can choose to buy an additional seat which:
Costs the applicable adult fare plus any applicable taxes or carrier-imposed fees
Is a bulkhead (divider) window seat (not in an Emergency Exit row)
Is directly next to yours
If you choose to buy an additional seat for your instrument, please note that seat baggage must not weigh more than 165 lbs. (75 kg) and must meet seat size restrictions based on airplane type.

Highly doubtful the cello exceeded the 165 pound weight limit, or could not safely be strapped into the seat of a mainline aircraft. Unfortunately mistakes happen. If I had such an instrument, I would print off and carry a copy of the DOT press release and the final rule in my cello case.
 
LHUSA
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:03 pm

People make mistakes. It boggles my mind that airline employees are not allow to mess up. That's all it was, a mistake - someone trying to do their best decision-making in a very short amount of pressure-filled time.The media (mainstream and social ) act as if this was some agent of the devil finally discovered for his/her evil ways and crucify them for sport. Imagine if every industry were held to these standards.
 
greendot
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:10 pm

LHUSA wrote:
People make mistakes. It boggles my mind that airline employees are not allow to mess up. That's all it was, a mistake - someone trying to do their best decision-making in a very short amount of pressure-filled time.The media (mainstream and social ) act as if this was some agent of the devil finally discovered for his/her evil ways and crucify them for sport. Imagine if every industry were held to these standards.


If there was any pressure, it was self-induced. Were they trying to takeoff before the volcano blew? No. They could have called the gate agent, who could have called a supervisor to see what the laws are and what the company policy is. Furthermore, AA should've had their logistics software rehearse this requirement even prior to the customer getting into the airport. AA chose not to design a system that accommodates exceptional cases, if you can even call this one. What further doesn't help is the typical FA attitude that they cannot be bothered to do their jobs. There is never a reason for FAs to blow everything out of proportion. They could've de-escalated many times. AA must not be let off the hook for this. I really hope she sues them and wins.
 
greendot
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:14 pm

Tucker1 wrote:
Safety issue, that's it. Find another method of shipping your cargo. I fly a dozen fishing rods and tackle from Wisconsin to Miami on a flight beforehand and they are ready to go for me when I get there to continue on to Marathon. At least $8,000 worth. Figure it out. A cello does not have a place in the cabin.


Look... the sky is blue. SAFETY ISSUE.

If it's not a Warning or Caution, you shouldn't jump to say it's a safety issue. She bought another seat, therefore she found another way. It was strapped in and probably far better than just being passively belted... most people wind the seatbelt extended around the handle so it won't become a projectile.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:05 am

LHUSA wrote:
People make mistakes. It boggles my mind that airline employees are not allow to mess up. That's all it was, a mistake - someone trying to do their best decision-making in a very short amount of pressure-filled time.The media (mainstream and social ) act as if this was some agent of the devil finally discovered for his/her evil ways and crucify them for sport. Imagine if every industry were held to these standards.


According to a.net passengers are never aloud to mess up. They should know the rules in and out and should have read all the fine print in the airlines rules. They are the amateurs, but they can never rely on the professional information by airline staff and the airline, they should know better.

Than we get to the airline staff, the professionals, they are of course aloud to make mistakes and fuck up the travel for their customers.
 
xxcr
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:48 am

I flew SFO-EWR a few months ago on UA 77W in business, and 2 passengers had purchased 2 seats for their cellos. I had no idea what instrument it was so i asked the owner and he told me it was a one off Carbon Fiber cello that he didnt trust checking in. IIRC he said it cost upwards of 65k for the 2 cello's so i dont blame him for buying a seat for it.

Most planes today can fit a cello in the cabin, even if you're flying in economy. I will not defend the airlne or the passenger but maybe it was a safety issue??? If she was cleared to fly with it on the first flight, i dont see why it would be an issue on the 2nd flight.....Did i miss something in the article?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:48 am

xxcr wrote:
I flew SFO-EWR a few months ago on UA 77W in business, and 2 passengers had purchased 2 seats for their cellos. I had no idea what instrument it was so i asked the owner and he told me it was a one off Carbon Fiber cello that he didnt trust checking in. IIRC he said it cost upwards of 65k for the 2 cello's so i dont blame him for buying a seat for it.

Most planes today can fit a cello in the cabin, even if you're flying in economy. I will not defend the airlne or the passenger but maybe it was a safety issue??? If she was cleared to fly with it on the first flight, i dont see why it would be an issue on the 2nd flight.....Did i miss something in the article?


You missed that AA has the rule that the seat for the cello must be a window seat at a hard bulkhead. The hard bulkhead is special to AA, not a safety measure by the FAA and does not apply at other airlines That seems to be something that nobody bothers about at AA, until the fun part of booting a passenger of the plane while calling the goon squad.
It seems to be more and more a police matter, when an airline denies you a service that you contracted and paid for.
 
AbigailWT
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:04 pm

Unfortunately it appears that the concept of "caveat emptor" and self accountability, while endangered species during Generation X, has since become officially extinct.

As an expensive and important of a tool as we are lead to believe here, is it too much to ask to do your own homework? I travel with specialized sports equipment, not high value stuff in the grand scheme of things but over-sized/important/etc. The first thing I did was research how United was going to make my life difficult in the process. I've had no problems, because the rules and restrictions are published and freely available before I chose to do business with them.

AA's policy isn't even complicated. I found it via Google and read the policy in less than 5 minutes. It's essentially 3 bullet points and the 2nd one,
"Is a bulkhead (divider) window seat (not in an Emergency Exit row)"
is a gigantic red flag. Proceed accordingly. Yes this might mean you need to spend a few more minutes consideration to sort out your precious million dollar cello.

We don't have a transcript so nobody here knows how the call went down. What I think we can agree on is the $15/hour phone booking agent at AA didn't know any better. It would be naive to assume that every booking agent knows every last detail of an airlines policy. Many of these agents actually book for more than 1 airline. It's a possibility the agent has never even booked a cello let alone with AA before. It's unreasonable to expect the level of perfection and competency demanded in this thread out of what is basically one of the lowest rungs at the airline. This is a phone agent not a gate agent. Who books airfare on the phone anymore, anyway? (tongue in cheek, relax)

As for the policy..... it's there, established and was (eventually) correctly implemented which unfortunately resulted in 1 person being mildly inconvenienced. In an industry fraught with safety and risk-aversion as the number one priority -- fortunately it's not up to FAs/etc to choose when they feel like implementing official policy or not. AA's first screw up was actually allowing the cello on leg 1 (presuming it was also not booked in the proper seats) doesn't constitute a requirement for them to break policy on leg 2. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc, etc.

It was said before, the airline can never win when all of their employees aren't perfect little robots 100% of the time. Time to cattle call (no pun) the social media brigade! In a Monday morning quarterbacking world AA could/should/would have done all kinds of things "better."

I was hesitating to toss this out here but the "plays cello, ergo 4 times as educated as anyone here" comment got me good. Sooooo educated you can't book a plane ticket properly? Got it. :)

A greeting.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:12 pm

Gatorman96 wrote:
AA's instrument in the cabin policy clearly states that the additional seat must be a window in the bulkhead (with a divider) for the instrument. Based off of the image provided in the article, this was not the case so AA was well within their rights to ask the passenger to exit the plane. Considering the fact the passenger was escorted off of the plane by LEOs meant she didn't go willingly which is the passengers fault. Was there a miscommunication? Probably as it's clear from the video English is not her native language, but that doesn't give her the right to behave in a way that police officers must be called to diffuse the situation.

"If your instrument doesn’t fit in the carry-on baggage space, you can choose to buy an additional seat which:

- Costs the applicable adult fare plus any applicable taxes or carrier-imposed fees
- Is a bulkhead (divider) window seat (not in an Emergency Exit row)
- Is directly next to yours

If you choose to buy an additional seat for your instrument, please note that seat baggage must not weigh more than 165 lbs. (75 kg) and must meet seat size restrictions based on airplane type."


If the above information is published on AA.com, then I'd say this unfortunate incident was more likely a result of an oversight on the part of the customer not looking for or not finding this information online.

On the other hand, if the above information is not published on AA.com, then AA.com should be updated ASAP. If this is currently internal information available only to AA employees such as Reservations, Ticket Counter and Gate staff, then AA was in the wrong here. AA.com should include the above information so that customers actually have access to it without the need to engage airline personnel.

If customers don't have access to the rules and policy information on the web site, they will not know how to comply. The reality is that not everyone traveling today knows to reach out to Reservations staff to clarify these types of issues prior to arriving at the airport.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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ricport
Posts: 145
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:42 pm

M564038 wrote:
She was not in the wrong. Therefore she did not have to leave, no matter who said so. You are not obliged to follow orders by wrongfull use of authority. The US is not a Police state. Mindblowing how many people doesn’t seem to grasp that simple principle.


No, what's mind blowing is that people like you seem to equate obeying the law and authority with a "police state." In the cabin, the flight crew - for better or worse - is pretty much the authority. If they ask you to leave, get up, leave, and hash out whatever real or perceived injustice you have suffered in the courts. That's what several other people did on Dr. Feelgood's flight. Sorry, but you AREN'T special. You don't get to pick which laws/rules you're going to follow and when. Don't like the law/rules? That's why we have elections and the freedom to patronize - or not patronize - any business we wish. Grow up.
 
Revo1059
Posts: 132
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:06 pm

AbigailWT wrote:
Unfortunately it appears that the concept of "caveat emptor" and self accountability, while endangered species during Generation X, has since become officially extinct.

As an expensive and important of a tool as we are lead to believe here, is it too much to ask to do your own homework? I travel with specialized sports equipment, not high value stuff in the grand scheme of things but over-sized/important/etc. The first thing I did was research how United was going to make my life difficult in the process. I've had no problems, because the rules and restrictions are published and freely available before I chose to do business with them.

AA's policy isn't even complicated. I found it via Google and read the policy in less than 5 minutes. It's essentially 3 bullet points and the 2nd one,
"Is a bulkhead (divider) window seat (not in an Emergency Exit row)"
is a gigantic red flag. Proceed accordingly. Yes this might mean you need to spend a few more minutes consideration to sort out your precious million dollar cello.

We don't have a transcript so nobody here knows how the call went down. What I think we can agree on is the $15/hour phone booking agent at AA didn't know any better. It would be naive to assume that every booking agent knows every last detail of an airlines policy. Many of these agents actually book for more than 1 airline. It's a possibility the agent has never even booked a cello let alone with AA before. It's unreasonable to expect the level of perfection and competency demanded in this thread out of what is basically one of the lowest rungs at the airline. This is a phone agent not a gate agent. Who books airfare on the phone anymore, anyway? (tongue in cheek, relax)

As for the policy..... it's there, established and was (eventually) correctly implemented which unfortunately resulted in 1 person being mildly inconvenienced. In an industry fraught with safety and risk-aversion as the number one priority -- fortunately it's not up to FAs/etc to choose when they feel like implementing official policy or not. AA's first screw up was actually allowing the cello on leg 1 (presuming it was also not booked in the proper seats) doesn't constitute a requirement for them to break policy on leg 2. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc, etc.

It was said before, the airline can never win when all of their employees aren't perfect little robots 100% of the time. Time to cattle call (no pun) the social media brigade! In a Monday morning quarterbacking world AA could/should/would have done all kinds of things "better."

I was hesitating to toss this out here but the "plays cello, ergo 4 times as educated as anyone here" comment got me good. Sooooo educated you can't book a plane ticket properly? Got it. :)

A greeting.


Gen X? I think you are a little off in your generational references.

She called the airline verified what the process was. The company failed to properly inform the passenger of the requirements. It's not even close to the first time someone has flown with a large instrument. The airline rep should be aware of this and should have advised accordingly. Not the first time AA has botched a cello issue (per the article).

Having said that it sounds like the second crew followed the proper procedures. Without reading through 3 pages of posts, did the crew ask anybody if they'd be willing to switch with her?

They even let her get to her seat and gave her the strap to secure the cello, THEN they told her no? That's also ridiculous.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:36 pm

So… paying $15/hour won't connect you to someone who knows what they are talking about??? Instead, the customer is supposed to somehow intuit exactly how airline policy will be implemented, despite the fact the policy contains vague and imprecise wording, and doesn't provide all the information you need???

Yup. This is a.net where only the customer is fallible, not the airline. Apparently, it's still the customer's fault, and they are "naive to assume that every booking agent knows every last detail of an airlines policy." (quoting AbigailWT)

The truth is that AA's policy is crap. The bulkhead rule is legally unnecessary, and THOROUGHLY complicates the situation. And, just to make things even more peachy, there's this gem in the policy: "please note that seat baggage must not weigh more than 165 lbs. (75 kg) and must meet seat size restrictions based on airplane type." And, is information about those restrictions available ANYWHERE online? No, it is not available online! You have no choice but to contact the airline if you want that information.

I'm sorry, but this is the airline's fault, and not the customer's fault. Stop blaming the customer, and stop apologizing for this poorly crafted AA policy.

Just imagine the media crapstorm if this was a professional cellist, on their way to perform a concerto with a major orchestra. Imagine that someone in the orchestra's administration booked the airline ticket, and went through the exact procedure as this, including phoning the airline for clarification. Imagine an orchestra of 100 musicians, and an auditorium of 2000 paid ticket holders, waiting for their soloist who's being held up by the airline. AA should consider itself fortunate that this was only a student cellist, and that she was not traveling to a performance, audition, or competition.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:41 pm

So of the two people in the interaction, the one who needs to know the correct rules and procedures of a company it is the passenger and not the employee of said company that must know them?

So how does an informed customer deal with people who do not know the rules (because they are not required to apparently), but are not permitted to be questioned because they have "positional authority" and you must comply up to and including hari-kari.

The answer is people should not travel but instead hand money over to keep the pretty planes in the air and not bother anyone, especially with large objects that they specifically requested passage for!

You have been warned no more travel in planes! You inconsiderate people!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:14 pm

This continues to be one of the most ridiculous a.net threads. The airline screwed up at multiple points and then chose to escalate the matter in a very nasty way. Stop finding excuses.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:41 pm

aerolimani wrote:
So, are some of you saying that instruments should be banned from the cabin altogether? That would mean a whole lot less musicians touring anywhere. The suggestion is absurd.

[...]

If you ban instruments from the cabin, you are banning many musicians from travelling by air. That is a ridiculous suggestion, worthy of mockery, IMO.


:checkmark: Perfectly said.

If you banned instruments bigger than carry-on size from the cabin (which includes violins, violas, bassoons, trombones, saxophones, and many others), you would take away many musicians' ability to make a living. Soloists would lose their careers. Even musicians with regular orchestral gigs rely on summer festivals, chamber events, etc. as an essential part of their income.

AA's bulkhead policy is dumb. A cello, belted in with the belt looped around the case handle, is not a safety hazard in any non-exit row window seat on a mainline aircraft.
 
M564038
Posts: 196
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:43 pm

It is called Law enforcement, you know?
The authority is only there to enforce the law, and she didn’t break any.
The passenger/airline was also under contract with each other, where she was fulfiling her part by paying and abiding all applicable laws.
The airline was in breach of contract and misused their authority by involving Law enforcement by falsely accusing her.

Whatever special rules AA has about bulkheads, they are not LAW, and not part of any official safety regulation and they waived their self-imposed «rule» by selling her and assigning her that seat.




[="ricport"]
M564038 wrote:
She was not in the wrong. Therefore she did not have to leave, no matter who said so. You are not obliged to follow orders by wrongfull use of authority. The US is not a Police state. Mindblowing how many people doesn’t seem to grasp that simple principle.


No, what's mind blowing is that people like you seem to equate obeying the law and authority with a "police state." In the cabin, the flight crew - for better or worse - is pretty much the authority. If they ask you to leave, get up, leave, and hash out whatever real or perceived injustice you have suffered in the courts. That's what several other people did on Dr. Feelgood's flight. Sorry, but you AREN'T special. You don't get to pick which laws/rules you're going to follow and when. Don't like the law/rules? That's why we have elections and the freedom to patronize - or not patronize - any business we wish. Grow up.[/quote]
 
AbigailWT
Posts: 17
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:12 pm

I can only laugh at the number of self-imposed lawyers that have suddenly emerged in this thread.... "breach of contract," really!?

Uneducated consumer with their precious million dollar cello sitting a mile high on their horse couldn't be bothered to read the terms of service which specifically spell out how this exact scenario could play out badly for them.

Shocker.



And let me tell you, every other person with an anecdotal story about their son/daughter/uncle/friend whatever ever that has to do with a cello makes it even worse. I even have a question..... does the air smell better so far up there on your high horse?
 
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aerolimani
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 pm

AbigailWT wrote:
I can only laugh at the number of self-imposed lawyers that have suddenly emerged in this thread.... "breach of contract," really!?

Uneducated consumer with their precious million dollar cello sitting a mile high on their horse couldn't be bothered to read the terms of service which specifically spell out how this exact scenario could play out badly for them.

Shocker.



And let me tell you, every other person with an anecdotal story about their son/daughter/uncle/friend whatever ever that has to do with a cello makes it even worse. I even have a question..... does the air smell better so far up there on your high horse?

Of course, we have only the word of the passenger, but in screen caps of their Facebook messenger communication with AA customer service, they claim to have even questioned the phone agent’s decision to book non-bulkhead seats, when they were booking the tickets. I don’t know how much more due diligence you expect!

Nobody’s on a high horse. If you had an international career, the tool of your trade was worth as much as a high-end Italian sports car or a nice house, and could easily be permanently ruined by travel as a checked bag, then you would be just as incensed as those of us who you are criticizing.

Now, use your powers of deductive reasoning and objective analysis, learn some empathy, and for crying out loud, stop exclusively looking for ways to excuse the airlines’s behaviour as anything less than poor. This isn’t a legal case, a.net isn’t a court of law, and you are not AA’s defense lawyer.

And… I’m done here. I think we’ve worn out this thread.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:28 pm

AbigailWT wrote:
Uneducated consumer with their precious million dollar cello sitting a mile high on their horse couldn't be bothered to read the terms of service which specifically spell out how this exact scenario could play out badly for them.


There is no evidence that the consumer did anything wrong. Other than arguing their case against the crew, they appear to have done everything by the book -- reserve a seat for the cello, pay for that seat, call the airline reservations department, pass the checkin desk, pass security, and pass the gate agent.

Let me rephrase your "couldn't be bothered" sentence in another way, this time from the point of view of the airline:

Uneducated corporation with their precious billion dollar business sitting a mile high on their horse couldn't be bothered to read the terms of service which they specifically had written themselves, for which they have accepted a sale and which spell out how exactly they should provide the service to the buyer.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 194
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:03 pm

Not wanting to bash AA. Mistakes can and do happen. But, there was a unfortunate breakdown in process and procedure. When you book a seat, you’re required to provide all the secure flight information. Name, DOB, etc. AA made and accepted a booking for a cello. Unclear to me whether or not it was in the bulkhead window or not, but in accepting the reservation AA should have ensured that it was. Or, reshuffled a few seats to accommodate it. I’m sure the FA thought s/he was doing the right thing. The musicians organization went to great lengths to get this regulation passed. They have the right to buy a seat and transport such an instrument. That said, a measure of self help in keeping a copy of the reg with you if you are traveling with a precious instrument would help a lot in terms of avoiding such misunderstandings.
 
AbigailWT
Posts: 17
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:39 am

aerolimani wrote:
the tool of your trade was worth as much as a high-end Italian sports car


Oh boy, here we go again.

Let me go ahead and nip this in the bud. While cellos *can* cost a bunch of money, most don't. Please see https://www.cellocentral.com/ufaqs/how- ... ello-cost/

Heck, even Carter Brey, chief cellist for the NY Philharmonic travels with a ‎€2,222 cello and he seems to be doing just fine for himself (source: https://nyphil.org/about-us/artists/carter-brey)

So yeah, enough of the holier than thou already.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:07 am

AbigailWT wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
the tool of your trade was worth as much as a high-end Italian sports car


Oh boy, here we go again.

Let me go ahead and nip this in the bud. While cellos *can* cost a bunch of money, most don't. Please see https://www.cellocentral.com/ufaqs/how- ... ello-cost/

Heck, even Carter Brey, chief cellist for the NY Philharmonic travels with a ‎€2,222 cello and he seems to be doing just fine for himself (source: https://nyphil.org/about-us/artists/carter-brey)

So yeah, enough of the holier than thou already.

:rotfl: I had to come back for this. I couldn't resist. It's just too much fun. You shouldn't make yourself such an easy target. You REALLY have NO idea what you're talking about here. You are so out of your depth. Though, I do commend your googling skills. It must have taken you a while to come up with Carter Brey and his Yamaha cello.

I guarantee you that if Carter Brey is travelling for a professional performance, he does NOT bring his Yamaha practice cello. That would be like a formula 1 driver coming to the race with a Ford Focus. That's the cello you take when you're going camping by a lake somewhere for a month, you want to keep your skills up, and you don't feel like paying for the seat for your good cello.

If Carter Brey is traveling for work, he's most likely taking his Guadagnini. An 18th century Italian instrument like that is going to be in the 6-7 figure range. To your average person, Guadagnini isn't as famous as Stradivarius, but his instruments are just as highly valued by musicians and collectors. Besides, even if Mr. Brey is slumming it, and takes his "backup" cello, that one is by James McKean, and is likely worth about $40,000. Sorry… no source for the James McKean info. That one just comes from personal knowledge.

Guadagnini historical prices: https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/price ... ker_ID=234
 
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seabosdca
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:37 pm

It's not just about what an instrument is worth. It's about the years involved in finding an instrument that is appropriate to the particular musician's style and personality, and then the years the musician has spent learning to get the very most out of the instrument.

I used to be a lower-tier professional violinist. Nothing special, not even a major symphony gig. My violin is worth only about $25,000 (most mid- to high-tier pros have instruments worth at least several times that). And I don't even play that much anymore. But I would be utterly devastated if my instrument were lost, destroyed, or damaged in such a way that its sound was lost (which can happen quite easily with extremes of temperature). It would be literally like the loss of a family member.

The violin has to be in the cabin or I'm not traveling with it. Make me buy a seat? Fine. Make me wait for a later flight? Fine. But it's not going in the hold.
 
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PPVLC
Posts: 253
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:46 pm

I had a cello as a 1st class passenger years ago, we even gave the owner an extra blanket to wrap around the case so it wouldn't get scratched by the seat belt. The cello didn't eat or drink anything during the flight but the owner was very happy ;)
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 157
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:26 pm

PPVLC wrote:
I had a cello as a 1st class passenger years ago, we even gave the owner an extra blanket to wrap around the case so it wouldn't get scratched by the seat belt. The cello didn't eat or drink anything during the flight but the owner was very happy ;)



See it's not that hard after all. Thank you for being a good and conscientious person Shepparding us through the skies.
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:30 pm

14CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8515
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:41 pm

jagraham wrote:
14CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3


So what?
 
Gatorman96
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:22 am

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:48 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:
But, there was a unfortunate breakdown in process and procedure.

There was? The flight crew was well within their rights to deny carriage of the Cello based on AA's published procedure, which is available to anyone with access to the internet and the ability to Google (see highlighted section);

Image

It doesn't matter if the passenger quadruple checked with the airline whether or not they could travel with the Cello, it is ultimately up to the flight crew to ensure the safety of the passengers. Remember, just like aircraft seats, not all Cello cases are of a standard size either, which is exactly why the policy states "must meet seat size restrictions based on airplane type." If you read the complaint by the passenger, this is the exact reason why she was asked to deplane. Her Cello case was too large to safely fit in that specific aircraft (737-800) in the class of carriage.

TigerFlyer wrote:
That said, a measure of self help in keeping a copy of the reg with you if you are traveling with a precious instrument would help a lot in terms of avoiding such misunderstandings.

This would have only validated the flight crews decision to ask the passenger to deplane and wait for a later flight that could accommodate her case.
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:24 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
jagraham wrote:
14CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3


So what?


That is the law which says everybody on the airplane must do what the pilot in command says. And if they don't the pilot in command has very wide latitude to deal with the situation.

Flight attendants operate under delegated authority of the PIC.
"The Ninth Circuit recognized that airlines must have some latitude in making decisions to preserve safety and order, but that there were
countervailing concerns as well, since passengers also have a legitimate interest in being treated fairly and with dignity; they are, after all, captives of the airline for the duration of the flight, and may be stranded far from home if not allowed to continue on the flight they have paid for. Moreover, air crews have both de
facto and de jure law enforcement authority when the plane is in the air….
(emphasis added)

https://www.kreindler.com/Publications/ ... 162011.pdf
https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/ ... ndant.html
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 1211
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:17 am

Gatorman96 wrote:
TigerFlyer wrote:
But, there was a unfortunate breakdown in process and procedure.

There was? The flight crew was well within their rights to deny carriage of the Cello based on AA's published procedure, which is available to anyone with access to the internet and the ability to Google (see highlighted section);

You refer to the highlighted, vaguely worded section which pretty much requires the customer to call ahead for clarification, which is exactly what the customer did. Thus, the breakdown in communication.
 
M564038
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:53 am

That is not what authority means, jagraham.
Being in authority doesn’t mean you don’t have to be right. It means you can put action behind your words, but it doesn’t free you of the consequences of doing so.

jagraham wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
jagraham wrote:
14CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3


So what?


That is the law which says everybody on the airplane must do what the pilot in command says. And if they don't the pilot in command has very wide latitude to deal with the situation.

Flight attendants operate under delegated authority of the PIC.
"The Ninth Circuit recognized that airlines must have some latitude in making decisions to preserve safety and order, but that there were
countervailing concerns as well, since passengers also have a legitimate interest in being treated fairly and with dignity; they are, after all, captives of the airline for the duration of the flight, and may be stranded far from home if not allowed to continue on the flight they have paid for. Moreover, air crews have both de
facto and de jure law enforcement authority when the plane is in the air….
(emphasis added)

https://www.kreindler.com/Publications/ ... 162011.pdf
https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/ ... ndant.html
 
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ricport
Posts: 145
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:10 pm

M564038 wrote:
It is called Law enforcement, you know?
The authority is only there to enforce the law, and she didn’t break any.
The passenger/airline was also under contract with each other, where she was fulfiling her part by paying and abiding all applicable laws.
The airline was in breach of contract and misused their authority by involving Law enforcement by falsely accusing her.

Whatever special rules AA has about bulkheads, they are not LAW, and not part of any official safety regulation and they waived their self-imposed «rule» by selling her and assigning her that seat.



Sigh. For starters, once again, here's the specific law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3

Here's the other related law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46504

Again, I don't know if this cellist was asked to leave. However, she, I, Dr. Feelgood, and, yes, YOU are required to leave if asked. Again, if the crew was in error, there are airline policies/procedures, laws and the courts (not to mention the media and social media cesspool) to get satisfactory resolution. GROW UP, and stop thinking the world revolves around you.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:34 pm

ricport wrote:
M564038 wrote:
It is called Law enforcement, you know?
The authority is only there to enforce the law, and she didn’t break any.
The passenger/airline was also under contract with each other, where she was fulfiling her part by paying and abiding all applicable laws.
The airline was in breach of contract and misused their authority by involving Law enforcement by falsely accusing her.

Whatever special rules AA has about bulkheads, they are not LAW, and not part of any official safety regulation and they waived their self-imposed «rule» by selling her and assigning her that seat.



Sigh. For starters, here's the specific law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3

Here's another related law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46504

Again, I don't know if this cellist was asked to leave. However, she, I, Dr. Feelgood, and, yes, YOU are required to leave if asked. Again, if the crew was in error, there are airline policies/procedures, laws and the courts (not to mention the media and social media cesspool) to get satisfactory resolution. GROW UP, and stop thinking the world revolves around you.


I support respecting the authority of the flight crew. Having said that, the flight crews have a responsibility to be consistent and not abuse that authority. Stories like this one - at least on the outside - come off as a bit of an abuse, as the customer apparently did everything the airline asked, but still got booted.

People can understand that mistakes are made - they may not like it, but they get it - but when they did everything the airline requested and it’s still not enough - or even “too bad for you, but chin up butter cup, we make the rules, not you” - then it comes off like you (as the customer) are being abused through the airline’s inconsistencies and poor handling.

My feeling is that if you are going to sell a service, then you should provide the service. If this woman called and did everything in her control, but was still booted, then at a minimum it would seem like an opportunity to improve through retraining, better communication, and a more understanding approach to what the customer is experiencing. The attitude displayed by some that she is a crybaby or shouldn’t bring an instrument or that she just needs to respect authority like a big girl really misses the whole point of “customer service”.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8515
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:53 pm

Gatorman96 wrote:
TigerFlyer wrote:
But, there was a unfortunate breakdown in process and procedure.

There was? The flight crew was well within their rights to deny carriage of the Cello based on AA's published procedure, which is available to anyone with access to the internet and the ability to Google (see highlighted section);

Image

It doesn't matter if the passenger quadruple checked with the airline whether or not they could travel with the Cello, it is ultimately up to the flight crew to ensure the safety of the passengers. Remember, just like aircraft seats, not all Cello cases are of a standard size either, which is exactly why the policy states "must meet seat size restrictions based on airplane type." If you read the complaint by the passenger, this is the exact reason why she was asked to deplane. Her Cello case was too large to safely fit in that specific aircraft (737-800) in the class of carriage.

TigerFlyer wrote:
That said, a measure of self help in keeping a copy of the reg with you if you are traveling with a precious instrument would help a lot in terms of avoiding such misunderstandings.

This would have only validated the flight crews decision to ask the passenger to deplane and wait for a later flight that could accommodate her case.


So you are completely satisfied with an airline selling a service, that they are unwilling or unable to provide. Posters here also forget that the passenger has already fulfilled his/her part of the contract that is paid.

If the flight crew has the right to deny the passenger the flight is not in question, but do they have the right to call the goon squad on a passenger, because of a mix up by their own airline? And is there no customer service component to decisions by the aircrew, be it only to fix a mistake their airline made?

I also call the "safety angle" in doubt. The FAA does not claim that a hard bulkhead is needed for a cello and no other airline does seem to demand it. Why, if the crew is so omnipotent as set up here, can they not jump the other way and allow the cello in a seat without a hard bulkhead?

Yes the crew can deny the transportation of the cello, but why do many of you hold the airline and their staff blameless? If they agree and contracted to transport her and her cello on a certain date and time (accepting the payment is accepting the contract), it is clearly the airlines fault if that transportation does not happen. They knew a person and a cello, the date, the flight and managed to blow it.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8515
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:04 pm

jagraham wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
jagraham wrote:
14CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3


So what?


That is the law which says everybody on the airplane must do what the pilot in command says. And if they don't the pilot in command has very wide latitude to deal with the situation.

Flight attendants operate under delegated authority of the PIC.
"The Ninth Circuit recognized that airlines must have some latitude in making decisions to preserve safety and order, but that there were
countervailing concerns as well, since passengers also have a legitimate interest in being treated fairly and with dignity; they are, after all, captives of the airline for the duration of the flight, and may be stranded far from home if not allowed to continue on the flight they have paid for. Moreover, air crews have both de
facto and de jure law enforcement authority when the plane is in the air….
(emphasis added)

https://www.kreindler.com/Publications/ ... 162011.pdf
https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/ ... ndant.html


Yes but that does not absolve the Captain from the consequences of his/her decisions.

Quite a few posters here, saying being captains, have declared, that they always have the back of their crew and never change the decisions. That is hardly the view you should allow a final authority.

Anyway, the question is not really if the crew did wrong, but posters here are defending the airline and claiming the passenger did wrong.
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:36 pm

Let me be clear. I think the airline did wrong at several points. However, the passenger does not have the right to overrule the flight crew. The 14CFR 91.3 makes that clear, as does the Ninth Circuit ruling in the Alaska Airlines case.

The passenger can and should sue when something like this happens. After complying with the incorrect orders of the flight crew.
 
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Aesma
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:38 pm

1st : do most people know what is meant by bulkhead ?
2nd : how do you book these precise seats in advance ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 612
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Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
1st : do most people know what is meant by bulkhead ?
2nd : how do you book these precise seats in advance ?

1st: they don't. But they even shouldn't, because
2nd: you do exactly as the passenger in this thread did: you CALL the airline to buy the tickets, you tell them a cello is traveling with you, and it's up to the airline then, to figure out:
a) if the bulkhead seat is required, and if yes
b) where exactly these bulkhead seats are

Apparently, then the airline charges full fare of two tickets, plus all the fees, surcharges and "seat selection" add-ons they feel like. (Yes, looks like cello is a perfect customer, as far as the airline is concerned -- no fare-hunting for it; it accepts ANY airfare the airline throws at it)
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: AA booted a Cellist from the Aircraft (did not allow the Cello on a paid ticket)

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:52 pm

Again, I don't know if this cellist was asked to leave. However, she, I, Dr. Feelgood, and, yes, YOU are required to leave if asked.


Actually, that’s not quite accurate. In Dr. Dao’s case (and yes, let’s actually start maturely using his real name, m’kay?), United’s own policy was that once a validly ticketed passenger was seated, they couldn’t be removed. They could be bumped before getting on the plane ans sitting down, but once on the plane they couldn’t be asked to leave. This was codified in United's DOT filings and testimony before that body, and in United’s own internal policies and rules in effect BEFORE Dr. Dao’s face was kicked in. In other words, the command or request to exit the plane wasn’t one that as per United’s own rules could be given to a validly ticketed and seated passenger for the simple reason of wanting a seat. Barring some other legally enforceable issue or reason for ordering him deplaned, the actual order or request to give up his seat was invalid and therefore Dr. Dao (his real name, m’kay?) was under no legal obligation to get up and leave.

A lot of people don’t understand that about the Dr. Dao case. They just call him names and mock him, without themselves taking the time to educate themselves on the issue, preferring to remain ignorant. He was breaking no rules. In fact, to reiterate his conduct was in accordance with United’s own preexisting policies and rules!

Of course, one way that airlines handle situations like this is to order everyone off of the plane. Then, they reboard without seating the person they want off. We’ve already seen this a few times since the Dr. Dao incident.

Okay, sorry for going a little bit afield here.

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos