20 dead in Junkers Ju 52 crash in Switzerland

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:20 pm

In Switzerland, today marked two deadly crashes. In a crash involving a Socata TB-10, a family was killed.

Just a few hours later, in the vicinity of Piz Segnas, the Ju-52 aircraft (reg HB-HOT, old reg A-702) was involved in a deadly crash: http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/ostschweiz/ ... b-27027811 (in Germish, sorry)

It was the plane that appeared in the film "Where Eagles Dare". Picture from 1980:

The Swiss Air Force kept the camouflage livery that was applied for the film.

David

JannEejit · Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:30 pm

How sad andt tragic, I watched Where Eagles Dare again just last week as well My condolences to all involved with these two tragedies.

Gonzalo · Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:33 pm

Very sad day. The JU-52 was wearing a Rimowa promotional livery recently.
Tragic.
Rgds.
G.

ClipperYankee · Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:35 pm

RIP to those who perished and, less importantly of course, poor Tante Ju. I got a private tour of the one that is in the Smithsonian's Dulles Airport annex quite a while before the museum was built and it was a fascinating aircraft to be in.

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:11 pm

AVHerald is covering this accident:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbf2069&opt=0

I wonder if these accidents today were somehow due to density altitude, as we currently have a crushing heat wave, with 95°F over most of the country.

David

CrimsonNL · Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:15 pm

I am shocked! Horrible, horrible news! I flew on her sister ship just last month. The Ju-Air operation looked very professional, and I was very impressed with the immaculate state of the aircraft.

Martijn

sevenair · Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:48 pm

This is tragic. From within Europe and beyond we feel the pain of this tragedy. Too sad.

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:07 pm

There is still no indication about how many passengers were on board. This could well be the most significant air disaster in Switzerland since 1990, when Alitalia flight 404 crashed.

David

MEA-707 · Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
There is still no indication about how many passengers were on board. This could well be the most significant air disaster in Switzerland since 1990, when Alitalia flight 404 crashed.
David

There was a Crossair ARJ crash in november 2001 with 24 casualties....

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:11 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
There was a Crossair ARJ crash in november 2001 with 24 casualties....

Thank you for the correction. :worried:

David

CrimsonNL · Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:55 pm

AvHerald has posted that here are likely no survivors.. There's also an interesting NOTAM since yesterday about a cable that has been suspended between two points along the route.

Also a translated Swiss news article;

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 90196.html

Martijn

LTenEleven · Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:59 pm

It is barely being covered in the mainstream Swiss news. Is there some confusion with the other light aircraft crash earlier today?

Moderators: can we please change the topic title to reflect the gravity of the accident?

LTenEleven · Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:08 pm

This was the trip:
https://www.ju-air.ch/app/download/6799 ... 1510133689

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:28 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
Moderators: can we please change the topic title to reflect the gravity of the accident?

I support that.

Perhaps the accident didn't get more international coverage because it's not a traffic flight. Ju-52, what's that? Boeing or Airbus would ring a bell with journalists... BBC News covers a Russian helicopter crash which has caused 18 deaths, but not this one.

David

Metz727 · Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:31 pm

Dreadful news. I have flown on JU 52 several times and they regular fly over our house in southern Lake Zurich every Wednesday and Saturday. I saw one crossing around 4pm this afternoon and made a comment to my wife about the possible thermic making this a bumpy experience. So sad, RIP everybody!

LTenEleven · Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:40 pm

Are there no journalists working in Switzerland on a Saturday evening?

This may not be a "normal" airline accident but it is nevertheless one where a relatively sizeable number of paying passengers were being carried from A to B.

prebennorholm · Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:50 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
This may not be a "normal" airline accident but it is nevertheless one where a relatively sizeable number of paying passengers were being carried from A to B.

Paying passengers, yes and no. To be on these planes you have to register as a member of the club "Freunde der schweizerischen Luftwaffe", the club which operates JU-AIR. That changes the whole situation about operating rules, insurance etc.

There is no way you can these days have a Ju-52 certified to carry ordinary paying passengers like airlines do.

DSFTEBMNZ · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:04 am

There is no way you can these days have a Ju-52 certified to carry ordinary paying passengers like airlines do.

I can believe there would be no FDR! But no CVR, though that’s an easier after-market add as long as you have a generator? Even a simple GoPro camera would work.

JA786A · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:16 am

Very sad and shocking news. Swiss media are assuming that there are at least 19 casualties as the flight was probably fully booked (17 passengers + 2 pilots; maybe 1 flight attendant?). Cantonal police of Grisons will announce further details at 9am CEST.

https://www.aero.de/news-29709/Tante-Ju-in-der-Schweiz-abgestuerzt.html
https://twitter.com/KapoGR/status/1025838222046314501

Silverstreak · Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:18 am

During a 1997 visit to Potsdam for the day I was walking in a garden in front of one of the palaces when I heard very distinctive engine sounds. Above were a Junkers 52 and a DC-3 in parallel. What a fantastic sight! This young couple approached me and asked what was it. When i told them, they shrugged their shoulders, looked at each other, and walked away.

flyingturtle · Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:32 am

I believe I've seen one of these Ju Air planes at an air show, flying a formation with two DC-3. Their slow flight and their rumble is majestic and dinosaur-like. (Those Ju 52 have de-rated engines, for noise and preservation reasons.)

About the wreckage: It's peculiar that the wreck is upside down, and the tail is not crumpled (as in a longitudinal deceleration), but cracked. If I understand the physics right, the plane crashed headfirst into the ground and then flipped over. Stalling and trying to dive in order to regain airspeed comes to mind.

But we'll see.

David

dampfnudel · Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:13 am

Not a word about this horrible crash here in the US. Like someone else said, I wonder if the heat contributed to the crash.

LTenEleven · Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:33 am

We are now 16 hours after the accident and still no official communication on the circumstances or number of deaths (except the crash confirmation). There may have reasons (talking to the families), but it is an odd approach by the Cantonal Police + STSB leading to totally misleading media coverage.

prebennorholm wrote:
Paying passengers, yes and no. To be on these planes you have to register as a member of the club "Freunde der schweizerischen Luftwaffe", the club which operates JU-AIR. That changes the whole situation about operating rules, insurance etc.

There is no way you can these days have a Ju-52 certified to carry ordinary paying passengers like airlines do.

That’s a fair point, although people are able to book JU-Air trips on the website and only become a club member afterwards. They have made their Junkers into a pretty serious operation, where customers may be (rightly or wrongly) expecting a similar level of safety to other flights they take.

Noshow · Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:52 am

I have flown with Ju Air as a passenger and they are some extremely professional outfit. Well maintained aircraft, solid ops. I would fly anytime with them again. I would consider their pilots the very top of alpine pilots. What a sad loss.

Could it be the unusual extreme heat in Europe with very high density altitude and lowered performance plus turbulences and mountain top winds that make piston flying so dangerous these days?

Plane Holland · Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:11 am

Noshow wrote:
I have flown with Ju Air as a passenger and they are some extremely professional outfit. Well maintained aircraft, solid ops. I would fly anytime with them again. I would consider their pilots the very top of alpine pilots. What a sad loss.

Could it be the unusual extreme heat in Europe with very high density altitude and lowered performance plus turbulences and mountain top winds that make piston flying so dangerous these days?

The heat is not particularly extreme and certainly not at that time. From what I read at avherald a collision with a cable or they had no way out of the valley were more likely.

Birdwatching · Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:15 am

It's incredible that one day after the accident there is almost no background info in the media, no word about how many passengers were on board (only how many passengers the Ju-52 can carry). I can only explain this with the character of the Swiss people who never panic but stay perfectly calm no matter what happens. I just find it odd that hours after a plane crash in the most remote backwaters of Africa there will be twitter pictures, eyewitness reports, passenger lists and all, but in this event not even the Avherald or the ASN has any indication about how many people were on board.

Noshow · Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:29 am

Sadly you can assume it was booked out. So, including the crew, 20. The pictures speak for themselves. If there would be survivors we would know.

Kikko19 · Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:33 am

Incredibly also today no news about it on the Italian press

FrmrKSEngr · Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:56 am

Birdwatching wrote:
It's incredible that one day after the accident there is almost no background info in the media, no word about how many passengers were on board (only how many passengers the Ju-52 can carry). I can only explain this with the character of the Swiss people who never panic but stay perfectly calm no matter what happens. I just find it odd that hours after a plane crash in the most remote backwaters of Africa there will be twitter pictures, eyewitness reports, passenger lists and all, but in this event not even the Avherald or the ASN has any indication about how many people were on board.

From AV Herald, Pax and crew count:
"Crash: Ju-Air JU52 at Piz Segnas on Aug 4th 2018, impacted terrain

By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Aug 4th 2018 17:34Z, last updated Sunday, Aug 5th 2018 07:16Z
A Ju-Air Junkers JU-52 ("Tante Ju", "Auntie Ju"), registration HB-HOT performing a flight from Locarno to Dubendorf (Switzerland) with 17 passengers and 3 crew, impacted terrain near N46.9022 E9.2247 and came to rest at an elevation of about 2540 meters/8330 feet near Martinsloch/Piz Segnas (Switzerland) at about 16:50L (14:50Z). A Rescue and Recovery operation has been initiated. No survivors have been located."

LTenEleven · Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:12 am

Birdwatching wrote:
It's incredible that one day after the accident there is almost no background info in the media, no word about how many passengers were on board (only how many passengers the Ju-52 can carry). I can only explain this with the character of the Swiss people who never panic but stay perfectly calm no matter what happens. I just find it odd that hours after a plane crash in the most remote backwaters of Africa there will be twitter pictures, eyewitness reports, passenger lists and all, but in this event not even the Avherald or the ASN has any indication about how many people were on board.

It has been on AvHerald and ASN since yesterday, but I agree with you on the rest. The world media is treating it as a small aircraft accident, in a similar (or even lesser) way than the TBM accident in Switzerland yesterday that killed a family of 4. There will be shock when the number killed in the Junkers accident is confirmed.

The press conference has been further delayed until 14:000L.

I am starting to think we would have quicker official news from an accident in North Korea.

gadFly · Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

The crash site is hard to reach, and the air space around the area has been closed till Sunday night, so no media chopper could get in there anyway. Swiss media now covering, but they state that the first pressconference will take place place Sunday afternoon. Usually, they do not communicate much info until next-of-kin are contacted. You don't want family to have to find out only through media. Link in French to this morning's Tribune de Genève article:
https://www.tdg.ch/suisse/faits-divers/ ... y/26503286

LTenEleven · Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:19 am

Some video footage from previous JU-Air Alpine sightseeing flying:
https://youtu.be/aP5j47WoXfg

Kilopond · Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 am

The local police have postponed their official media conference from 0900 to 1400 (Bravo Time).

https://twitter.com/KapoGR

fraT · Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:27 am

Plane Holland wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I have flown with Ju Air as a passenger and they are some extremely professional outfit. Well maintained aircraft, solid ops. I would fly anytime with them again. I would consider their pilots the very top of alpine pilots. What a sad loss.

Could it be the unusual extreme heat in Europe with very high density altitude and lowered performance plus turbulences and mountain top winds that make piston flying so dangerous these days?

The heat is not particularly extreme and certainly not at that time. From what I read at avherald a collision with a cable or they had no way out of the valley were more likely.

There is a comment on AVH from somebody who was working on the cable.
As per him, the cable wasn't in place at the time of the accident.
Not confirmed of course.

sevenair · Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:55 am

AVH comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. It's amazing that whenever there's an incident that there's a significant amount of comments from people claiming to be on flights.

Whatever happened in this accident it culminated in what looks to be a high energy impact and whatever happened must have happened suddenly and without warning.

TheLark · Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:07 am

sevenair wrote:
AVH comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. It's amazing that whenever there's an incident that there's a significant amount of comments from people claiming to be on flights.

Of course they should. Nevertheless, I see no reason to doubt the sincerity of this particular poster. Obviously, some of the eyewitnesses and survivors are fakes, but many are not: after all, it's not surprising that they want to share their experiences.

flyingturtle · Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:22 am

Link to a topographical map of the crash site: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&topic ... air=marker - the error should be less than 200 meters in any case.

Picture of the crash site (2007): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... en_040.jpg

20min.ch now has eyewitness reports:
- the plane made a 180 degree turn before the crash --> possibly the crew noticed that they've not enough power to climb over the ridges surrounding the valley, and tried to turn back, stalling
- the plane crossed the aforementioned cables with "some hundreds of meters" of vertical clearance

David

Noshow · Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:37 am

The Ju 52 under normal conditions can turn extremely tight, like almost on the spot. And bank pretty steep. It's likely that very high density altitude limited their maneuverability and maybe prevented them from getting out like they could do on a normal day.

The heat is not particularly extreme and certainly not at that time.

Yes it was.

sevenair · Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:41 am

The crash site would certainly support a stall/spin incident.

xxD328xx · Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:09 am

Ju-Air suspended flights until further notice.
https://www.ju-air.ch/en/

Report now appearing in German media. Including this photo from the rescue operation:

https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute/me ... t-100.html

LAX772LR · Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:16 am

flyingturtle wrote:
There is still no indication about how many passengers were on board. This could well be the most significant air disaster in Switzerland since 1990, when Alitalia flight 404 crashed.

Though not actually "in" Switzerland, pretty sure Swissair 111, equals or surpasses that as a significant air disaster for Switzerland.

Tough to believe that next month makes 20yrs for that crash.

flyingturtle · Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:49 am

Incidentally, the crash site is on the popular hiking route between Elm (state of Glarus) and Flims (state of Grisons). We can expect many more images from the crash site.

I'll stay tuned for the press conference that begins in 10 minutes: https://www.srf.ch/livestream/player/srf-1

David

MartijnNL · Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:59 am

Unfortunately the live stream seems to be only accessible for viewers who are actually in Switzerland.

xxD328xx · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:07 pm

20 dead.

http://www.filmon.com/tv/srf-1

xxD328xx · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:13 pm

– high speed vertical impact
– no inflight breakup
– no collision with cable or other aircraft
– no fire

flyingturtle · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:18 pm

Results from the press conference:
- airplane was intact before it crashed
- it collided with the ground almost vertically and with a high speed
- all persons are dead, as presumed. All victims are between 42 and 84 years old, Eleven were male, nine were female.

There is a telling picture: https://ibb.co/h0T83z

David

aw70 · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:23 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
There is a telling picture: https://ibb.co/h0T83z

David

Telling in which regard? Also, did the press conference mention that there was a video of the actual crash?

rheinwaldner · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:25 pm

Live press conference:
https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/graubu ... umgekommen
(German)
Oh, I see am late "wie die alte Fasnacht"...

flyingturtle · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:27 pm

aw70 wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
There is a telling picture: https://ibb.co/h0T83z

David

Telling in which regard? Also, did the press conference mention that there was a video of the actual crash?

This is a photo that was relayed to the media. I still don't know of any video of the crash. The photo was not part of the press conference - Swiss television just showed that picture before the presser began.

It hints at engine trouble. So you may have a 2 engine Ju 52, a high density altitude and having to fly over a mountain ridge...

David

---

Other things:

- pilot 1: 61 years old, since 30 years a commercial pilot with Swiss and Swissair, and flew 330. Ju 52 pilot since 2004.
- pilot 2: 62 years old, 30 years a pilot with Swiss, Swissair and Edelweiss, he flew 330 and 340.

- there was no emergency call

David

JannEejit · Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:45 pm

Now reported on BBC News website.

Switzerland crash: Twenty dead as WW2 plane crash - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45076060

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