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Carlos01
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Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:56 am

I added this to the original accident thread, which to me is the only correct place to put it, and the entire thread got deleted? So the accident never happened on this forum?? :lol: :confused: :banghead: :shakehead:

Anyway, here's the final accident report, should be interesting for aviation forum members, even if the aviation forum moderators don't like aviation related topics:

https://www.sust.admin.ch/en/documentat ... ugust-2018
 
TC957
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:41 am

Thanks for posting, but it's a very heavy document for those like me that don't have really good internet speeds.
Oh I'm with you regarding the 6-month old thread rule getting amended.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:07 pm

I read the report. It is a quite disturbing read, especially since they got photos from inside the airplane which they could extract from mobile phones retrieved after the crash.

The depth of the analysis is very impressive, and they are very strict on the regulator, as well. Generally, the flight crew is not getting away well, nor does the regulator.

Ju-Air wants to continue, with a new mindset. That is the good news out of it, if we want to find anything good. The other point: VFR requires discipline.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:01 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
I added this to the original accident thread, which to me is the only correct place to put it, and the entire thread got deleted? So the accident never happened on this forum?? :lol: :confused: :banghead: :shakehead:

Anyway, here's the final accident report, should be interesting for aviation forum members, even if the aviation forum moderators don't like aviation related topics:

https://www.sust.admin.ch/en/documentat ... ugust-2018


You were pumping an old thread. I kindly recommend you to have a look at forum rules when posting in threads which have been inactive for more than six months.

For questions please contact moderators by mail to [email protected].

Link to thread:

20 dead in Junkers Ju 52 crash in Switzerland
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:40 pm

Here, let me summarize: pilots screwed up.
 
Heinkel
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:06 pm

Well worth to read the report. The two guys on the flight deck ruined the day.

Direct cause

The accident is attributable to the fact that after losing control of the aircraft there was insufficient space to regain control, thus the aircraft collided with the terrain.
The investigation identified the following direct causal factors of the accident:
• The flight crew piloted the aircraft in a very high-risk manner by navigating it into a narrow valley at low altitude and with no possibility of an alternative flight path.
• The flight crew chose a dangerously low airspeed as regard to the flight path.

Both factors meant that the turbulence which was to be expected in such circumstances was able to lead not only to a short-term stall with loss of control but also to an unrectifiable situation.

3.2.2 Directly contributory factors
The investigation identified the following factors as directly contributing to the accident:
• The flight crew was accustomed to not complying with recognised rules for safe flight operations and taking high risks.
• The aircraft involved in the accident was operated with a centre of gravity position that was beyond the rear limit. This situation facilitated the loss of control.


They flew too slow and too low in confined airspace. Yes, ex-military pilots can do that. Rules and regulations are for the others...

All the other maintenance flaws and corrosion were not causative to the crash but show the safety culture at Ju Air.

Crystal clear pilot error. Nobody else to blame.

I've had three flights on the Lufthansa Ju 52 and I'm quite sure, that the Lufthansa operation was safer and more professional.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:27 pm

SQ22 wrote:
You were pumping an old thread. I kindly recommend you to have a look at forum rules when posting in threads which have been inactive for more than six months.

For questions please contact moderators by mail to [email protected].

Link to thread:

20 dead in Junkers Ju 52 crash in Switzerland


This is obviously a topic that many other forum users have issues with, hence I would like to respond in this thread (so that they are aware of it) - sincerely sorry about that. I will also follow-up by e-mail as instructed.

Could the forum consider exempting this policy in case there is an official document that revives the particular thread? I mean, let's say that MH17 gets shot down. With plenty of luck, the final report is out in 5 months, then everybody would be happy. But what if the report is out in 12 months, which is closer to the reality? I mean, many aviation geeks (and journalists) search for information online, also several years later. A repository like airliners.net has an immense value in that, a discussion between enthusiasts and aviation professionals, tracking the events in real time as they happened, ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL REPORT, that's really, really, really, really, cool. Please make it possible. The world will thank you later - and I'm not kidding in so many ways.

Best regards,
Carlos01
 
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SQ22
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Re: 20 dead in Junkers Ju 52 crash in Switzerland

Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:48 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
This is obviously a topic that many other forum users have issues with, hence I would like to respond in this thread (so that they are aware of it) - sincerely sorry about that. I will also follow-up by e-mail as instructed.

Could the forum consider exempting this policy in case there is an official document that revives the particular thread? I mean, let's say that MH17 gets shot down. With plenty of luck, the final report is out in 5 months, then everybody would be happy. But what if the report is out in 12 months, which is closer to the reality? I mean, many aviation geeks (and journalists) search for information online, also several years later. A repository like airliners.net has an immense value in that, a discussion between enthusiasts and aviation professionals, tracking the events in real time as they happened, ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL REPORT, that's really, really, really, really, cool. Please make it possible. The world will thank you later - and I'm not kidding in so many ways.

Best regards,
Carlos01


The next time please contact us before posting as outlined in the forum rules. Thanks. Thread pump is approved and I have merged the threads accodingly.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Reminds one of those earlier "over the rim" flights at the Grand Canyon, several of which went wrong resulting in rules changes. Still, risky piloting moves and make a mess almost anywhere............
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:23 pm

Those pics in the report and the appendices are rough to look at it...especially when you consider it was the last thing some pax saw before their untimely demise
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:02 pm

In view of these numerous technical inadequacies, it can be concluded that, prior to the accident flight, the Junkers Ju 52/3m g4e aircraft registered as HB-HOT was not airworthy in either a physical or a formal sense.


Wow, that's a shocking conclusion! Though it follows up by saying that it probably didn't contribute to the accident.

I'm quite baffled by the numerous serious shortcomings of Ju-Air named in the report. From my one flight experience with them just 2 weeks before the crash I found them to be very professional. I suppose I might be biased by Switzerland's stellar reputation for precision and reliability, and from my years of good experience working with various Swiss (commercial) airlines. I really didn't expect they would find this many faults and a lack of oversight in Swiss aviation..
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:09 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
In view of these numerous technical inadequacies, it can be concluded that, prior to the accident flight, the Junkers Ju 52/3m g4e aircraft registered as HB-HOT was not airworthy in either a physical or a formal sense.


Wow, that's a shocking conclusion! Though it follows up by saying that it probably didn't contribute to the accident.


Yes, it did not contribute to the accident at all.

You can see what happened on the flight in the official YouTube video from the accident investigation here -

https://youtu.be/jGF4ovuSrK0

Unfortunately, the elements were against them as you can see there.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:38 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
I really didn't expect they would find this many faults and a lack of oversight in Swiss aviation..


Switzerland is small, and few people have expertise in historical piston aircraft. Couple that with the personal connections between the operator, the crews, maintenance and the regulators. It's very difficult to maintain a professional distance.

There is a lot less interdependence when you operate a Cessna 172, or an Airbus 320. For both you'll easily find maintenance personnel, regulative officers and crew who do not belong to a tight cluster.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:52 pm

A 300MB folder full of pictures, that's nice !

From looking at them, this plane seems like a maintenance nightmare ! Which isn't too surprising, as they weren't expected to last more than a few years, back then.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
runway23
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:07 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:

I'm quite baffled by the numerous serious shortcomings of Ju-Air named in the report. From my one flight experience with them just 2 weeks before the crash I found them to be very professional. I suppose I might be biased by Switzerland's stellar reputation for precision and reliability, and from my years of good experience working with various Swiss (commercial) airlines. I really didn't expect they would find this many faults and a lack of oversight in Swiss aviation..


Let’s not forget the beginning of the 2000s when Switzerland had in a short period of time a lot of accidents. SR 111 excepted they were all due to pilot errors and poor oversight by the regulator.

In a way this accident brings back those memories and hopefully a lot more will be done to supervise operators and their pilots.
 
sevenair
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:48 pm

All I get is a pdf with a list of links, most of which won't open. The one that did shows some incredible photographs. What an absolute tragedy for all of those involved. It should have been a great day out but ended up with them all dying. Like we see so often, it is toxic masculinity which is often the root cause of disaster. Not only was the aircraft operated in an unsafe manner, the operator and its 'old boys club' operational culture, it is entirely unsurprising that this happened.

I find the ex military lot either excellent, or a complete CRM disaster. There's rarely an in-between. It seems that these ex forces pilots certainly fell into the latter category and the culture of the operator meant risk taking was a regular occurance.

Predictable. Avoidable.
 
sevenair
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:25 pm

In the months and years prior to the accident flight, various safety-critical flights had been documented on which pilot A had been part of the crew, flying below a safe altitude9 or taking high risks. Between April 2018 and including the day of the accident, at least six flights have been logged which involved flight paths with a risk score of 8 to 10 (see section A1.18.4); on four of these flights, he was working with pilot B. On 6 July 2018, pilot A acting as commander flew, together with pilot B acting as co-pilot, over Munich in the Junkers Ju 52/3m g4e aircraft, registered as HB-HOT, at an altitude considerably below the minimum required level.

During his last line check on 12 May 2018, pilot B flew significantly below the safety altitudes as specified in the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) VFR guide. Furthermore, he disregarded essential principles for safe mountain flying. These principles have been published since 1981 and, at the time of the accident, were listed under RAC 6-3 in the AIP VFR guide. The Ju-Air training captain who was entrusted to carry out pilot B’s line check and also worked as a ground instructor for the air operator, rated the flight as ‘high standard’. The choice of flight path was described as “considerate” and “anticipatory”.

During a climb in sister aircraft HB-HOP on 6 July 2013, pilot B as commander, together with pilot A in the role of co-pilot at the time, entered the basin south-west of Piz Segnas in a similar manner to during the accident flight and flew over the ridge of the Segnes pass at approximately 30 m above ground.

During this flight, a 180-degree turn or an alternative flight path in the northern section of the basin south-west of Piz Segnas would not have been possible.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:40 pm

There is really no reason to fly like this, especially with passengers, but if you're going to do it, at least get much more airspeed !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Heinkel
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
There is really no reason to fly like this, especially with passengers, but if you're going to do it, at least get much more airspeed !


The report says, that the engines didn't reach their maximum power as described in the manufacturer's specification since years.

In addition, the maximum power setting in the throttle linkages was limited to extend engine lifespan / maintenance intervals.

So they flew an underpowered a/c, well knowing this, too slow and too low. No way to get more airspeed.

Most likely, the pilots did that, to give their passerngers an impressive sight on the mountains.
 
LucaDiMontanari
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:56 pm

Heinkel wrote:
Most likely, the pilots did that, to give their passerngers an impressive sight on the mountains.


I would say, you can cancel the term "most likely" and replace it with "for sure". The reason why they flew that low is the Martinsloch (Martin's hole), a roughly 60 by 70 feet sized, triangular natural tunnel in the Tschingelhorn ridge. If you want to give the passengers the opportunity to actually see trough the hole, you will need to fly more or less at the same altitude as the hole is for obvious reasons. That particular fly-by was usually one of the highlights on these flights. One may search on Google Earth/Google Maps 3D for the location and have your own impression of the site.

No english article in Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsloch
 
PaxPicti
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:07 pm

That report is absolutely horrifying and barely believable. Even though it wasn't a factor in the actual event, the condition of the aircraft alone would probably have made an accident due to a major failure in the air only a matter of time even without the pilots actually causing one. I used to drive and do some of my own maintenance on an old Citroën 2CV car, and some of the pictures of corrosion and repair methods there are startlingly familiar and would be considered a bit worrying on a small car with a maximum speed of around 60mph - to see very similar things on an aircraft is astounding and shocking.

A few years ago my father thought of taking one of these flights as the 'day trip of a lifetime' - thankfully my mother said no. He once worked for a Swiss company and always had the highest respect for their engineering standards and professionalism, I'm sure he would be utterly shocked and saddened to read this report.

RIP all on board.
 
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:24 am

CrimsonNL wrote:
In view of these numerous technical inadequacies, it can be concluded that, prior to the accident flight, the Junkers Ju 52/3m g4e aircraft registered as HB-HOT was not airworthy in either a physical or a formal sense.


Wow, that's a shocking conclusion! Though it follows up by saying that it probably didn't contribute to the accident.

I'm quite baffled by the numerous serious shortcomings of Ju-Air named in the report. From my one flight experience with them just 2 weeks before the crash I found them to be very professional. I suppose I might be biased by Switzerland's stellar reputation for precision and reliability, and from my years of good experience working with various Swiss (commercial) airlines. I really didn't expect they would find this many faults and a lack of oversight in Swiss aviation..



Switzerland and Aviation and reputation has dome exceptions to it. SR111 comes to mind, or the TU5 that got hit by the 757. Or the Avro or the Saab. That is a lot for a small country with a decent sized airline. Oh, and of course now there is the Ju-52.
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:04 pm

I spend a lot of time this weekend reading the report and most of the annexes. Absolutely shocking, and I'd go as far to call it horrifying..!

I know the plans were to re-engine the two remaining ships with the PW1340 Wasp engines and resume flights. However after reading this, I doubt that we'll ever see another Ju-Air flight in the air. I can't imagine them fixing all the problems in both HOS and HOP. Also I don't think any sponsors want to be associated with Ju-Air anymore after such damning conclusions. I'm quite saddened by the whole affair, as I personally had a superb experience flying with them!
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AndoAv8R
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:56 pm

Seems like it was just yesterday I was walking around/inside it at Front Range Airport in Colorado, and they had it so well maintained it looked like a brand new plane
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:29 pm

LucaDiMontanari wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
Most likely, the pilots did that, to give their passerngers an impressive sight on the mountains.


I would say, you can cancel the term "most likely" and replace it with "for sure". The reason why they flew that low is the Martinsloch (Martin's hole), a roughly 60 by 70 feet sized, triangular natural tunnel in the Tschingelhorn ridge. If you want to give the passengers the opportunity to actually see trough the hole, you will need to fly more or less at the same altitude as the hole is for obvious reasons. That particular fly-by was usually one of the highlights on these flights. One may search on Google Earth/Google Maps 3D for the location and have your own impression of the site.

No english article in Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsloch


I used to live on their regular flightpath (also a regular hiker), they always flew exceptionally low, even circled around mountain peaks with less than 100m clearance (from the wingtip). What also really caught my attention was the really-really low rpm of the engines, it sounded almost like idle.

It was always my dream to book a flight on one of these, luckily I never got to it. Or unlucky. Any flight before this would have been of course something you can't buy with money anymore.

Also says a lot about the Swiss culture, everyone knows everyone, everyone thinks we are so great, we're the best in the world in everything. Just because they can build watches in Romandie. And a particular cheese invented in the year 357 is good. And banks have money. What could possibly go wrong?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:17 pm

Slightly related to this, a flight club in Paderborn (http://www.quax-flieger.de/) is planning to reassemble the formerly Lufthansa-owned Ju-52, which was grounded and taken apart in 2018 after cracks in the motor spar were detected.

However, they don't expect it to fly again due to the excessive costs to operate such an old aircraft and new stricter regulations for vintage aircraft in Germany. They are hoping to get the engines and systems running again for taxi demonstrations, though.
https://www.airliners.de/tante-ju-restauriert/59188 [German]

I suppose a similar future might be possible for the remaining Ju-Air aircraft. Distribute them to museums and keep them in an airworthy condition but without actually flying.
 
saab2000
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:14 pm

Carlos01 wrote:

Also says a lot about the Swiss culture, everyone knows everyone, everyone thinks we are so great, we're the best in the world in everything. Just because they can build watches in Romandie. And a particular cheese invented in the year 357 is good. And banks have money. What could possibly go wrong?


There is truth to this. Aviation is a small community even worldwide. I learned how to fly in Switzerland and got my CPL rating and first job with LX in 2001 and worked there until the end of 2003. Fast forward to 2016 and I'm flying with a US carrier on the 737 and the captain is Norwegian. I told him about my experience and he asks me if I ever flew with or know a pilot from Norway named Axxxx Txxxxxxxxxxx. Sure enough, I do. They went to flight school in Norway together decades prior.

The experience I had in the flight school was definitely one of "We know this better than anyone" and there were lots of underhanded insults thrown at aviation cultures of other places but rarely did I hear comments of self-reflection on how we could have been better in Switzerland at the time.

The tiny fraternity of aviation can lead to inbreeding for sure. And what you say about Swiss culture is true in my experience as well, though not only there. Arrogance/overconfidence is a bad thing and leads to accidents like the one in this thread and some of the ones mentioned above.

During my time at LX, which wasn't even three full years we experienced a fatal accident and one further hull loss, among a number of other events that would be career-ending events at my current airline. To be fair, they were career ending there too. But the safety culture was lacking. The events we experienced should have put the operator certificate in jeopardy, they were that serious. The integration of SR and LX wasn't super smooth and improved things slowly but if we can learn anything it is that constant vigilance and humility are assets in this business. When I was there there was a ton of mutual resentment between pilot groups and resentment of a Big Brother safety culture that some interpreted as "trying to get them" with FOQA and other data analysis.

There was lots of talk of safety but the reality ahead of the flight deck door was another story, with procedures being ad libbed, callouts being made up and resentment about changes and technology being implemented. There was very much an attitude of "We did it this way for decades, why should I change now?"

After leaving LX I spent 12 years at a US regional airline where the safety infrastructure, oversight, training, reporting, data collection, etc. were vastly superior to what I experienced in Switzerland, and completely the opposite of what I expected based on how the Swiss instructors and pilots talked about American aviation. They referred to US pilots as "cowboys" who could only fly an approach if vectored onto a 10-mile final. The reality was 180º different, especially at the airline level, where strict adherence to procedures, rules, checklists, etc. was seen as not only desirable, but the only way to operate.

The point isn't to point fingers but to always be asking ourselves how we can do things better. There's always room for reflection and improvement and while Switzerland and Swiss aviation have much to be proud of there is also room for change and improvement and this accident involving very experienced pilots puts a focus on complacency of airmanship and maintenance and the whole culture of checks and balances, which seemed to be lacking at the operator in question.

Not long ago there was a fatal accident involving a B-17 at KBDL and the investigation also found many issues analogous to the Swiss accident. It's probably a good time to end most of these nostalgia flights.
Last edited by saab2000 on Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:22 pm

Maybe it's time to build some new ones? If new original wings and complete Junkers F 13 can be built new why not go bigger and build some Auntie Ju?
These airframes were never meant to be operated for 70 years or similar. They have to be replaced after some time. Say three for the Swiss, two for the germans mabye one UK one Sweden one Russia and two for the US and one "extra" that would make some mini series that could work?
Just dreamin'.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:25 pm

Noshow wrote:
Maybe it's time to build some new ones? If new original wings and complete Junkers F 13 can be built new why not go bigger and build some Auntie Ju?
These airframes were never meant to be operated for 70 years or similar. They have to be replaced after some time. Say three for the Swiss, two for the germans mabye one UK one Sweden one Russia and two for the US and one "extra" that would make some mini series that could work?
Just dreamin'.

It'd be a nice dream.
It's technically feasible. Might be economically feasible too... if one is able to exclude the potential liability in case of accident. This is what really kills this dream.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:56 pm

It's a certified type and if new it is even more reliable. So what should be different from operating any other sightseeing flight? It will not be cheap to custom built them but operating them seems to be no big issue?

Today you can buy new and zero hour Basler BT-67. Meant to fly as workhorses not as historic planes.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:33 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's a certified type and if new it is even more reliable. So what should be different from operating any other sightseeing flight? It will not be cheap to custom built them but operating them seems to be no big issue?

Today you can buy new and zero hour Basler BT-67. Meant to fly as workhorses not as historic planes.

The BT-67 is a rebuilt DC-3; restarting the Ju-52 production, after a 68-year hiatus (last produced in 1952 in France as the Amiot AAC1 Toucan) is a whole different story.
The main issue would be to have to recertify them with current regulation (i.e., impossible); and especially spreading the liability over a handful of frames would be cost prohibitive.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:07 pm

Reading the report just makes one angry and frustrated at the series of irresponsible acts that led to the loss of 20 lives in this crash.

An aircraft made over 80 years ago that was likely not airworthy. Poorly and inadequately maintained. Engines that were likely too worn, poorly maintained, and not able to operate at proper level. Possible lack of proper COG balance. Perhaps too many pax, too much weight. Operations in a high risk location. A gross display of irresponsible airmanship. I bet the pilot(s) flew so close to the mountains to give the passengers 'a good show' for their money. Serious flaws in the regulatory bodies, loopholes and exemptions in rules that perhaps need to be ended.

Maybe with much stricter regulations as to maintenance, operations so not in high risk areas of historical aircraft, as the report in parts recommends, it may be possible operate them in limited ways but for many it may mean their grounding or such levels of regulation it will be near impossible for economic reasons to continue them to fly them.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:07 pm

Saab2000 got it right.

On the cultural aspect. I just noted in a post above '"this is much better / more professional in Germany', which is exactly the very same approach that killed those 20 people in Switzerland.

The experience with nostalgia flights is really bad evereywhere. DC-3 in Netherlands, B-17 in the US, Ju-52 in Switzerland, Convair in South Africa were all fatal accidents prompted by the eagerness to fly old machines. Spares are scare and expensive, overhauls are challenging as the art of maintaining those ancient pieces of machinery is getting lost, etc. But above all the pressure to fly is the real killer.

Let's find other ways to love those historic machines.
 
Heinkel
Posts: 282
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Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:30 pm

Please don't forget:

The report clearly says, that all these maintenance flaws, corrosion etc. were not casual to this accident.

The one and only reason for the accident was the absolutely unresponsible behaviour of the two pilots. They flew too low, too slow in difficult terrain.
And they didn't do that for the first time.

Until the stall the aircraft was working perfectly, within its performance limitations, which were known to the pilots.

A really perfect example of pilot error and ignoring flight rules.
 
beechnut
Posts: 956
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:08 pm

Heinkel wrote:

Until the stall the aircraft was working perfectly, within its performance limitations, which were known to the pilots.



Not quite perfectly. There were corrosion issues and the engines were not able to deliver full power it would seem. That means it was operating as best it could at limitations below their certified values. If circumstances dictated that the aircraft be pushed to its limits, it would have fallen short. They were in effect test pilots in addition to flying low-and-slow, never a winning proposition in aviation whether in a vintage Ju-52 or a brand-new A320.

Pilots depend on the aircraft being able to perform to its certified limits. Their side of the responsibility is to keep the aircraft within those limits. They also failed here in that respect, the CofG was outside the envelope and contributed to the loss of control.

The whole operation was just an accident waiting to happen. A blown jug, a too-tight turn that busted a spar weakened by corrosion, or sloppy flying... at one point one of those would have bitten. And one did, in this case the sloppy airmanship.

Beech
 
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armagnac2010
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:45 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:33 pm

I am sorry, but the airline management perfectly knew what the pilots were doing, even with a proper SMS system in place (i doubt it was).

The management ordered the maintenance to restrict the engine output to save on engine life - just an example.

The airline bears the full responsibility for what happened. Pilots and regulators have also their share.
 
sevenair
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 pm

armagnac2010 wrote:
I am sorry, but the airline management perfectly knew what the pilots were doing, even with a proper SMS system in place (i doubt it was).

The management ordered the maintenance to restrict the engine output to save on engine life - just an example.

The airline bears the full responsibility for what happened. Pilots and regulators have also their share.


Absolutely agree. Surely there must be some consequences for the AOC postholders. But I should imagine they'll get away with it.
 
Heinkel
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:24 am

armagnac2010 wrote:
I am sorry, but the airline management perfectly knew what the pilots were doing, even with a proper SMS system in place (i doubt it was).

The management ordered the maintenance to restrict the engine output to save on engine life - just an example.

The airline bears the full responsibility for what happened. Pilots and regulators have also their share.


The accident report mentions, that the OEM's specification for the engines was 260 hours until a "general overhaul". Ju-Air extended this to 1.500 hours and they got an official permission for this.

One way to achieve this was to reduce the maximum power output of the engines. This was known to the airline, the regulators and the pilots.

In addition, it looks like these "general overhauls" were done without "swiss precision" and love to details. And often with inferior undocumented spare parts. So they had often engine failures after these "general overhauls". All this is mentioned in the accident report.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:02 am

The profoundly ingrained lack of professionalism and [lack of] safety culture at Ju-Air was nothing short of shocking.

This may come as a shock to the many people who generally (and wrongly it seems) tend to associate the so called "Swiss quality" premium factor to anything Swiss-made, only to realize the level of mind-boggling sloppiness of said outfit.

The Swiss (I personally know a number of them) can be an arrogant, self-centred, self-complacent lot, and they do love to think very highly of themselves.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2185
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:13 pm

The accident investigation is not bad at all and quite open minded and clearly worded.
 
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armagnac2010
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:45 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:39 pm

The accident investigation is not bad at all and quite open minded and clearly worded.


Indeed it is.

Good ICAO Annex 13 Investigations are essential for aviation safety and the rule to have independant investigation bodies (from regulators, and to the maximum extent, from politicians) has proven a good one. The only danger is some investigators believing they report only to God (or even, God is reporting to them), refusing to take into account reality or common sense.

in that case, the STSB did a great job investigating and documentating what will remain a textbook case of reckless operations by all the parties involved.
 
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hOMSaR
Moderator
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Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Updated: Ju-52 crash from 2018 in Switzerland - Final accident report published

Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:50 pm

Please keep discussion on the topic of the crash and subsequent accident report.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.

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