MrBretz
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Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:44 am

5 on board died. May they RIP. No one on the ground hurt.

http://abc7.com/5-killed-when-small-pla ... t/3888883/
 
MrBretz
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:49 pm

This is so sad. This contains a video of the plane nose diving into the parking lot. I wonder what could have caused this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/plane-cras ... l-victims/
 
evank516
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:20 pm

Sad, sickening, no other words.
 
audidudi
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:47 pm

MrBretz wrote:
This is so sad. This contains a video of the plane nose diving into the parking lot. I wonder what could have caused this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/plane-cras ... l-victims/

As the article says, the pilot did declare an emergency before crashing. Perhaps they ran out of fuel, which would be inexcusable on a 2 hrs/400 miles flight on that type of aircraft.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:05 pm

audidudi wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
This is so sad. This contains a video of the plane nose diving into the parking lot. I wonder what could have caused this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/plane-cras ... l-victims/

As the article says, the pilot did declare an emergency before crashing. Perhaps they ran out of fuel, which would be inexcusable on a 2 hrs/400 miles flight on that type of aircraft.

Terrible thing to see.

To my uninformed eye that doesn't look like a fuel issue, more like a control issue. It's going vertical into the ground. The 414 is not known to be a brick without power, gliding. But this is me doing armchair BS based on a few seconds of video.

My heart goes out to the friends and families of all who died yesterday. The fact that no one on the ground died as well is small but real consolation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
barney captain
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:23 pm

I see no post impact fire, which might indicate a fuel issue. Very tragic indeed.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Tugger
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm

barney captain wrote:
I see no post impact fire, which might indicate a fuel issue. Very tragic indeed.

True, you are absolutely right. In fact looking at the pictures there is almost no "liquid" to be seen.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Passedv1
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:42 pm

Video is long enough to show that the airplane is definitely stalled, the first few frames indicate some rotation so possibly even a little bit of a spin.

This happened on a mid-field downwind, which is a where a lot of pilots would start slowing down and configuring.. This is a common spot to lose track of airspeed due to aircraft configuration changes, perhaps distracted by an engine failure since engines often fail during power changes.
 
727200
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Hate to 2nd guess, but fuel starvation? Lack of fire on ground would indicate that would be one of 1st places to look.
Question is, if he knew he was low, he passed a lot of strips on the way there, plus he had the 405 in a real pinch.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:41 pm

And he had LGB or Los Alimitos just a few minutes before.
I can drive faster than you
 
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Aesma
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:56 pm

Sometimes fuel doesn't ignite, I wouldn't read much into it.

When a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc".
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
audidudi
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:14 am

Aesma wrote:
Sometimes fuel doesn't ignite, I wouldn't read much into it.

When a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc".

What has VMC, which stands for Visual Meteorological Conditions and meaning VFR (Visual Flight Rules) apply, got to do with "when a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc"?
 
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Moose135
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:31 am

audidudi wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Sometimes fuel doesn't ignite, I wouldn't read much into it.

When a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc".

What has VMC, which stands for Visual Meteorological Conditions and meaning VFR (Visual Flight Rules) apply, got to do with "when a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc"?

It's Minimum Control Speed (V for velocity, MC for minimum control) the airspeed below which directional or lateral control of the aircraft can no longer be maintained, after the failure of one or more engines.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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mercure1
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:54 am

C414 has 2hr range with full load and IFR reserves. But that assumes good fuel management.
Looks like flight flew at 11k, why so low.
My guess is fuel starvation 5 miles short, then loss of control trying to stretch glide it home.
RIP
mercure f-wtcc
 
keithball288
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 am

mercure1 wrote:
C414 has 2hr range with full load and IFR reserves. But that assumes good fuel management.
Looks like flight flew at 11k, why so low.
My guess is fuel starvation 5 miles short, then loss of control trying to stretch glide it home.
RIP

I agree with that it looks like missed calculation on fuel and tried gilding to the airport.
C310R, Saab 340,737-800,777-300,A330-200, A330-300, A320, A321,ERJ135,ERJ170
 
777PHX
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:41 am

audidudi wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Sometimes fuel doesn't ignite, I wouldn't read much into it.

When a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc".

What has VMC, which stands for Visual Meteorological Conditions and meaning VFR (Visual Flight Rules) apply, got to do with "when a light twin stalls like that you always think "Vmc"?


Do you have any idea what you're talking about here or are you just talking out of your ass?

Here's a hint, go Google "vmc roll".
 
e38
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:18 am

wow, 777PHX, what a comment.

Obviously in aviation there are multiple meanings for VMC / Vmc.

Perhaps not everybody is familiar with every aspect with which it is associated. That’s ok. I am aware of an accident several years ago where a pilot had a problem with Vmc because it was VMC and insufficient fuel was loaded.

By the way, very nice explanation Moose135.

e38
 
barney captain
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:58 am

Aesma wrote:
Sometimes fuel doesn't ignite, I wouldn't read much into it.


No, but it does spill. There should have been fluid all over the ground after an impact like that.

Pham said there was no explosion, a detail that fire officials also noted during a news conference.


http://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilo ... tory.html#
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Redwood839
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Surprised that at the angle that thing hit the ground that there was a large piece of the fuselage still intact.

RIP
 
flyinverted
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:19 pm

In 1993 the family of In-N-Out crashed on final to SNA because their jet got into the wingtip vortice of a preceding 757.
If you look at the flightradar data of this C414 crash, in fact the plane that preceded the C414 was a Delta 757.

While there was no post crash fire, indicating no fuel, the absolute loss of control MAY have been induced by the 757.. just a hunch.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:35 pm

flyinverted wrote:
In 1993 the family of In-N-Out crashed on final to SNA because their jet got into the wingtip vortice of a preceding 757.
If you look at the flightradar data of this C414 crash, in fact the plane that preceded the C414 was a Delta 757.

While there was no post crash fire, indicating no fuel, the absolute loss of control MAY have been induced by the 757.. just a hunch.


Somewhere I saw a flightaware track on the private plane. I can't find that right now. But it appeared the plane came from Concord and went out over the ocean north of LAX. Then they made a left turn to the north paralleling the SNA runways but were west of SNA . It appears they were planning on going north for a bit and make right turns back to SNA. I know this a pretty normal approach to SNA. But they crashed as they were heading north. Was the DL 757 making the same approach?

I remember the crash you were talking about. But that was on final with the private plane going down near the 5 freeway. I think ATC started calling a 757 a heavy jet after that time.
 
audidudi
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:47 pm

MrBretz wrote:
flyinverted wrote:
In 1993 the family of In-N-Out crashed on final to SNA because their jet got into the wingtip vortice of a preceding 757.
If you look at the flightradar data of this C414 crash, in fact the plane that preceded the C414 was a Delta 757.

While there was no post crash fire, indicating no fuel, the absolute loss of control MAY have been induced by the 757.. just a hunch.


Somewhere I saw a flightaware track on the private plane. I can't find that right now. But it appeared the plane came from Concord and went out over the ocean north of LAX. Then they made a left turn to the north paralleling the SNA runways but were west of SNA . It appears they were planning on going north for a bit and make right turns back to SNA. I know this a pretty normal approach to SNA. But they crashed as they were heading north. Was the DL 757 making the same approach?

I remember the crash you were talking about. But that was on final with the private plane going down near the 5 freeway. I think ATC started calling a 757 a heavy jet after that time.

It doesn't show what you're describing here, so did you see something else perhaps?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N727RP
 
AirCalSNA
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:51 pm

If he was turning to land where the accident occurred then he was very close to the runway threshold but relatively far from the centerline. Thus the pilot may have been trying to lose altitude with a countercontrol skid and unfortunately entered into an unrecoverable stall spin.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:51 pm

audidudi, that's the track. I just got my directions wrong. Sorry about that. I should have said " But it appeared the plane came from Concord and went out over the ocean north of LAX. Then they made a left turn to the northeast paralleling the SNA runways but were west of SNA . It appears they were planning on going northeast for a bit and make right turns back to SNA. I know this a pretty normal approach to SNA. But they crashed as they were heading northeast.".

Was the DL 757 making the same approach in front of the Cessna? Did you find that in flightaware?
 
MrBretz
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:09 am

audidudi, I found the DL track. Here it is https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KATL/KSNA

This looks like DL made a normal approach from the east turning southwest to line up with the runways and s/he made the turn north of SNA. The Cessna was not anywhere near this. So I think your idea, though clever, is probably wrong. But I am not a pilot and what would I know. It is just my opinion.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:42 am

Could have been worse had the aircraft crashed into the gas station next to the parking lot.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Small Plane Crash Near SNA

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:58 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Could have been worse had the aircraft crashed into the gas station next to the parking lot.


Or if they’d slammed into a restaraunt or the shopping mall.

This is terribly tragic for the five and their families, but everyone should be thankful this wasn’t a whole lot worse.

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