Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
planemanofnz
Topic Author
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:27 am

Hi all,

In response to the PRC's recent demands that certain international airlines drop references to 'Taiwan', Taiwan itself is now said to be mulling ‘countermeasures’ such as barring use of boarding bridges and adjustments to take-off and landing slots for airlines that complied with the PRC's demands. Meanwhile, carriers that took a more neutral approach to the request from Beijing – by just dropping the country name from their Taiwan destinations – would be given incentives, such as reduced or no landing fees and facilities charges.

See: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... iwan-china.

Cheers,

C.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:05 am

I am a bit disappointed by this entire episode. We might soon be back to the 90s where most airlines had dedicated subsidiaries to fly to Taiwan because of Chinese regulations. What a step backwards!
 
airpearl
Posts: 859
Joined: Tue May 01, 2001 7:42 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:36 am

Sadly, it would appear that based on a random sweep of the non-US carriers serving Taiwan, a large number are appeasing China - CX, TG, MH, SQ, TK, EK, GA, KL, PR, TR, 5J, among others, are already using "Taiwan, China" in their booking engines. The airlines that are taking a more neutral approach (i.e. not mentioning country at all) are the US, Japanese, Korean full-service carriers as well as LCC groups AirAsia and Lion.
 
planemanofnz
Topic Author
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:32 am

airpearl wrote:
CX

CX arguably has the most to lose out of this, being TPE's biggest foreign carrier, and 3rd biggest carrier overall.

Cheers,

C.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:11 am

There is no way Taiwan will win here. For most airlines, TPE is their only destination in Taiwan whereas in China, apart from the Big 3 PEK/PVG/CAN many international airlines are aiming to open up secondary cities such as CTU/HGH etc. Whatever disadvantage airlines may have to deal with in Taiwan will probably be more than compensated by advantage CAAC may grant them for compliance if the Mainland authority chooses to engage in this tit for tat game. Even for airlines like CX with multiple destinations to Taiwan, the mainline and Cathay Dragon have far more destinations on the mainland.

To me, these recent events are a microcosm of the changing dynamics of Mainland/Taiwan relationship. Mainland China has marched on while Taiwan has stagnated. Their economic power and influence are no longer comparable and the Mainland is increasingly making this advantage count. I can only see this trend continuing.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:35 am

Cerecl wrote:
To me, these recent events are a microcosm of the changing dynamics of Mainland/Taiwan relationship. Mainland China has marched on while Taiwan has stagnated. Their economic power and influence are no longer comparable and the Mainland is increasingly making this advantage count. I can only see this trend continuing.


In general Emperor Xi had also been a LOT more assertive when it comes to territorial sovereignty. Look at how quickly they're trying to stop any mention of even talks of HK independence movement, for example, even though that "movement" doesn't even have much support to begin with. (Helps that HK gov't is totally ass-kissing useless lap dog nowaday). But yes, part of it has to do with mainland becoming a lot stronger economically. If anything, mainland is learning from tricks of good ol' USA and 'bully" around smaller nation by exerting its "economic might" (See recent Iran sanction for example, and how EU nations know that they can only do so much).

The whole situation almost reminds me of the Qatar-Saudi spat anyway when it comes to air rights situation. It hasn't escalate to a point where it's back to good ol' day of no cross-strait flights (B/c CI and BR are printing money on those) and banning of overflight (Which CI and BR will have a lot more to lose compare to any mainland Chinese carrier, i.e. all their European flights now have to take quite a long detour), but wouldn't surprised me if that's the next step if stuff continue to escalate.

Otherwise, yes, CX/KA would be the largest carrier that's somewhat stuck in the middle of everything. Taiwan is definitely still a very important market for CX/KA, unlike most other carriers who can literally stop flying to Taiwan and not lose much.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13387
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:09 pm

Cerecl wrote:
To me, these recent events are a microcosm of the changing dynamics of Mainland/Taiwan relationship. Mainland China has marched on while Taiwan has stagnated. Their economic power and influence are no longer comparable and the Mainland is increasingly making this advantage count. I can only see this trend continuing.


Taiwan is an island with 23 millions inhabitants, China is a continent with 1.4 billion inhabitants, what did you expect ? The average Taiwanese is still much richer (and freer) than the average PRC citizen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
avier
Posts: 1146
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:09 pm

Ah, seems like the airlines are caught up in the cross fire between these two countries. Why penalise foreign carriers? Maybe just do so on the mainland Chinese carriers. (?)
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:37 pm

avier wrote:
Ah, seems like the airlines are caught up in the cross fire between these two countries. Why penalise foreign carriers? Maybe just do so on the mainland Chinese carriers. (?)

They did, about half year ago over another different issue
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
To me, these recent events are a microcosm of the changing dynamics of Mainland/Taiwan relationship. Mainland China has marched on while Taiwan has stagnated. Their economic power and influence are no longer comparable and the Mainland is increasingly making this advantage count. I can only see this trend continuing.


Taiwan is an island with 23 millions inhabitants, China is a continent with 1.4 billion inhabitants, what did you expect ? The average Taiwanese is still much richer (and freer) than the average PRC citizen.


China is indeed large, but it is hardly a continent.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
Taiwan is an island with 23 millions inhabitants, China is a continent with 1.4 billion inhabitants, what did you expect ? The average Taiwanese is still much richer (and freer) than the average PRC citizen.

The important part of my statement was the change in the economic positions of Mainland vs Taiwan. Even 20 years ago, the situation was quite different. What do I expect? I expect Taiwan to become increasingly reliant on the Mainland to support its economy. I expect more and more Taiwanese leaving the island to make their fortune in a vastly larger market.

Taiwanese is freer-true-although they seemingly cannot make up their mind about how to move forward with developing a relationship with their behemoth neighbour. They voted out the KMT regime for being too close to the mainland, yet the current DPP regime is quite unpopular partially because, to no one's surprise, it adopted an ideological rather than pragmatic policy of anyone but the Mainland. It would seem to me that Taiwan is at a crossroad in the challenging environment of its pillar industries are under threat while its economy is growing at one tenth the rate of PRC. The average Taiwanese is still richer than average PRC citizen-also true-about 3 times. Another way of thinking about these numbers is that the economy of PRC is roughly 20 times that of Taiwan. No prize in guessing which one airlines would pick in a winner takes all contest. With the Taiwanese Premier repeatedly claiming that he is working towards the hopeless goal of independence, One can expect more of these types of contest in the near future.
Last edited by Cerecl on Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4886
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:29 pm

If Taiwan is stupid enough to make airlines chose between them and PRC, they will soon end up with reduced air service much akin the token of largely irrelevant nations that recognize Taiwan versus PRC.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:14 pm

It is nonsense anyway because "China" is not a country; it is a region.

The People's Republic of China is a country that is a part of China. Taiwan is an island that is a part of China too, but that doesn't tell us what country it is in.

Usually, when airlines list a city, they tell you what country it is in. I suggest airlines change from saying "China" to PRC and ROC* or instead of ROC, just list a question mark as the country.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24808
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:24 pm

Taiwan better be careful. If they seek to retaliate towards foreign airlines you can bet some of those governments will react and turn make like harder on Taiwanese carriers. As it is Taiwan has constrained air service access for its airlines.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
raylee67
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:45 pm

While I sympathize Taiwan's position, there is nothing productive they can do in this case. And whatever they are thinking of doing (according to the leak in the media) is borderline stupid and will only hurt themselves.

First, many airlines which made changes to call Taipei being in China do not even fly to Taiwan (e.g. BA, LH, AI), so whatever counter-measure Taipei comes up with, will not affect them at all. They would care less.

Second, the other airlines that fly to Taipei, e.g. SQ, CX, TG, EK, etc., have a much higher stake in China vs. Taiwan. They are running their businesses and looking at their books. They don't want to choose sides in this disputes, but if you force their hands, we all know which side they will choose.

As for the counter-measures, the ones that are leaked include denying the airlines access to jet-bridge or denying them normal time slots. Apparently, those coming up with those ideas do not think. Even if it's just a brainstorming session, those ideas should not be brought up. The day after TPE denies SQ or TG planes access to jet-bridge at TPE, CI and BR aircraft will be sent to remote stands at SIN and BKK. This is not going to hurt SQ and TG, since they are only sanctioned at TPE, but CI and BR may as well end up parking their planes at remote stand at almost all airports across Asia or even Europe. The same goes for time slots. These stupid counter-measures will simply be made reciprocal by the other side. CI and BR will be doomed and tourists will feel annoyed going to Taiwan.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
planemanofnz
Topic Author
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:02 am

raylee67 wrote:
... the other airlines that fly to Taipei, e.g. SQ, CX, TG, EK, etc., have a much higher stake in China vs. Taiwan. They are running their businesses and looking at their books. They don't want to choose sides in this disputes, but if you force their hands, we all know which side they will choose.

Indeed.

Could this be the first sign of that?

Cathay Dragon in winter 2018/19 season is adjusting Hong Kong – Taichung route, as the airline reduces overall flights from 2 to 1 daily ... this service reduction is also maintained for summer 2019 season, on/after 31MAR19.

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ts-in-w18/.

Cheers,

C.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:13 am

planemanofnz wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
... the other airlines that fly to Taipei, e.g. SQ, CX, TG, EK, etc., have a much higher stake in China vs. Taiwan. They are running their businesses and looking at their books. They don't want to choose sides in this disputes, but if you force their hands, we all know which side they will choose.

Indeed.

Could this be the first sign of that?

Cathay Dragon in winter 2018/19 season is adjusting Hong Kong – Taichung route, as the airline reduces overall flights from 2 to 1 daily ... this service reduction is also maintained for summer 2019 season, on/after 31MAR19.

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ts-in-w18/.

Cheers,

C.

CX/KA probably have the highest ratio of Taiwan-to-China frequency compare to others?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:14 am

Flighty wrote:
It is nonsense anyway because "China" is not a country; it is a region.

The People's Republic of China is a country that is a part of China. Taiwan is an island that is a part of China too, but that doesn't tell us what country it is in.

Usually, when airlines list a city, they tell you what country it is in. I suggest airlines change from saying "China" to PRC and ROC* or instead of ROC, just list a question mark as the country.

PRC have also called out airlines that use the ROC label.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1874
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:32 am

planemanofnz wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
... the other airlines that fly to Taipei, e.g. SQ, CX, TG, EK, etc., have a much higher stake in China vs. Taiwan. They are running their businesses and looking at their books. They don't want to choose sides in this disputes, but if you force their hands, we all know which side they will choose.

Indeed.

Could this be the first sign of that?

Cathay Dragon in winter 2018/19 season is adjusting Hong Kong – Taichung route, as the airline reduces overall flights from 2 to 1 daily ... this service reduction is also maintained for summer 2019 season, on/after 31MAR19.

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ts-in-w18/.

Cheers,

C.

Taichung is the worst performing route in TW for ages so don't look too much into it. I believe KA reduced the route before before reinstating it.

Michael
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Taiwan - plans to hit back against the PRC

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:50 am

c933103 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
... the other airlines that fly to Taipei, e.g. SQ, CX, TG, EK, etc., have a much higher stake in China vs. Taiwan. They are running their businesses and looking at their books. They don't want to choose sides in this disputes, but if you force their hands, we all know which side they will choose.

Indeed.

Could this be the first sign of that?

Cathay Dragon in winter 2018/19 season is adjusting Hong Kong – Taichung route, as the airline reduces overall flights from 2 to 1 daily ... this service reduction is also maintained for summer 2019 season, on/after 31MAR19.

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ts-in-w18/.

Cheers,

C.

CX/KA probably have the highest ratio of Taiwan-to-China frequency compare to others?


Yes. 16 daily + 2/wk (CX) + 2 daily (KA) to TPE, 2 (soon to be one) daily to RMQ, 7 daily to KHH, all to/from HKG. HK is a separate aviation market from (mainland) China, though, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison.

As for RMQ - seems like AE (Mandarin Airlines) got most of that market (But they're just flying E90s for the most part on that route also). RMQ (along with HUN, but CX/KA doesn't fly to HUN) also has UO (HKExpress) competition. It's a much smaller market compare to TPE (Which still has quite a bit of business traffic) or even KHH.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos