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neomax
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Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:45 am

If you look on a map, BRU is very underserved to major US hubs compared to cities surrounding it. To the east is FRA, to the west is LHR, to the north is AMS, to the south is CDG. All 4 are very well served by all the 3 US airlines from major hubs. But BRU is missing several big holes compared to its neighbors such as DTW, IAH, PHL, and DFW as major US hubs with a strong European presence.
 
rwsea
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:17 am

First of all BRU is a much smaller hub than the others you mention. LHR, CDG, AMS, and FRA are the busiest airports in Europe; BRU is a bit further down the list. BRU is not a major connecting hub for flights within Europe, but rather more of a niche hub to destinations in Africa.

Most O&D traffic to BRU is focused on business and diplomatic traffic. BRU isn't really a tourist destination similar to the other cities mentioned above. It has flights to the key business/diplomatic destinations in the US, and that's probably enough. If Brussels Airlines were ever to expand to the same scale of KL, LH, etc., then perhaps this could change.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:33 am

Mainly because it's in Belgium....
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:48 am

LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA are +60 million PAX each.

BRU is about 25 million PAX.

So in terms of PAX numbers is like comparing JFK to BWI.

Also Brussels and other Belgian cities have direct high-speed rail service to AMS and CDG.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:53 am

neomax wrote:
If you look on a map, BRU is very underserved to major US hubs compared to cities surrounding it. To the east is FRA, to the west is LHR, to the north is AMS, to the south is CDG. All 4 are very well served by all the 3 US airlines from major hubs. But BRU is missing several big holes compared to its neighbors such as DTW, IAH, PHL, and DFW as major US hubs with a strong European presence.


Of the four hubs you chose, only PHL has a particularly strong European presence, so not the best examples. I don't think anybody is shocked that IAH, DFW and DTW don't have BRU service. The three largest trans-Atlantic gateways - JFK, EWR and MIA - have flights to BRU. As do three of the five other major gateways east of the Mississippi, Atlanta, Chicago and Washington. Maybe BRU could use a California or Boston flight, and maybe we'll see Philadelphia back, but it's hardly underserved given it's smaller size.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:11 am

skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:12 am

Size and rail connectivity to much larger gateways.

NW did try DTW-BRU very briefly with a 75A in 2007 during its experiment with 757 TATL service. It was only flown one summer and didn’t come back. DUS lasted a did longer as did BDL-AMS and a few other routes.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:26 am

neomax wrote:
To the east is FRA, to the west is LHR, to the north is AMS, to the south is CDG.


You answered your own question. You know how hubs work, right?
 
aviationaware
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:29 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:34 am

aviationaware wrote:
Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


Passengers will go wherever is cheaper and/or more convenient; money talks. I fly from time to time from CRL (in "deep" French-speaking Belgium) and it is full of Dutch-speaking passengers (despite they have the cross the whole country and you will hardly encounter anyone at the airport that speaks Dutch).

And Brussels Airport is located in Zaventem, Flemish Brabant.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:01 am

neomax wrote:
If you look on a map, BRU is very underserved to major US hubs compared to cities surrounding it. To the east is FRA, to the west is LHR, to the north is AMS, to the south is CDG. All 4 are very well served by all the 3 US airlines from major hubs. But BRU is missing several big holes compared to its neighbors such as DTW, IAH, PHL, and DFW as major US hubs with a strong European presence.


UA and DL serve BRU from multiple hubs, namely ATL, JFK, ORD, EWR and IAD. Brussels airlines also flies to JFK and IAD, the latter, seasonaly. So the situation isn't that bad in my opinion.

DTW, PHL and DFW aren't star alliance hubs, plus the O&D is minimal, so 2 strikes there.

AA discontinued PHL-BRU, so that should tell you the lack of O&D between the two cities. It was operated by a 757 i believe.

IAH-BRU is a stretch also, with minimal O&D.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
skipness1E
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:17 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?

That it has a fraction of the inbound tourist pull of the other major European hubs of Paris, London and Amsterdam (not Frankfurt, it's not really on anyone's bucket list)
 
londonistan
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:21 am

Who is Belgium? Where is She...?
 
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Loew
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:46 am

I don´t think that BRU is underserved. Brussels as well as surrounding region is very well connected to other major hubs in the area by several high speed rail links and extensive network of roads.

aviationaware wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


Belgium is actually a real country, it is a thing called federation. And no, it is not a federation of two countries. Belgium also happens to be 9th largest EU country, and medium sized when compared to the whole world. So no, Belgium is not small. And as for that little economic power, well you know, Belgium tends to be one of the most developed countries in the world. As for the "dear hate" I am not too sure about that but then again, you are the real expert here. Maybe you should visit Belgium and any EU institution before you start blabbing about economic power and "apparatchiks".
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:13 pm

aviationaware wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


Belgium pulls above its weight! Real country it might not be, but it certainly works at least as well as any major county on earth.

As for Flemish people going to Amsterdam because of language issues, give me a break. Do you realize that Flemish people as do Belgians have an airport called Brussels which enables them to connect at every major transfer hub in Europe. One stop connections enable Belgians to go wherever they want in the world.

One should ask why a 11 million inhabitant country without a large carrier is able to produce so much traffic, rather than asking why it’s not connected to every large town in the US!
 
nikeherc
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:19 pm

I go back a ways and remember when Brussels was one of, if not, the first, European destinations served from Atlanta. That was of course back in the Sabena days. Then Delta got London and the rest is history.
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Socrates17
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:43 pm

Trains. Also, I think that Schiphol is a great airport (I know there are those who disagree). Even when going on vacations solely to visit breweries in Belgium (where my favorite beers are brewed), I'd fly into Schiphol and take the Thalys. Fares also seem to be higher, at least at the times i checked.
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seb76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:43 pm

aviationaware wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


I have no idea where you come from to write such silly comments !

By your definition, Switzerland would not be a real country either ??? (as it has confederated entities speaking different languages).
As for the dear hate, well, I must say we do have dumb and hateful people just like every country has, but we have also plenty of constructive people who make good use of their multilingual skills and connect people together.

BRU and CRL are notoriously used by lots of people from either North of France (Lille area) and Holland because it's often closer from their home than CDG or AMS, or because they obtain better tarif this way. You can also hear plenty of Flemish of Dutch people in CRL (they don't sound quite the same).

One of the big advantages of Brussels is actually also playing against it: the Thalys and Eurostar high speed trains that connect Brussels to London, Paris and Amsterdam make it extra-easy to take a plane in those hubs... on the days when Air France and the french or Belgian railways are not striking of course ;-)
The presence of the European Commission and NATO in Brussels bring indeed mostly diplomatic and lobbyists traffic more than tourists or average businessman, so not so much long-haul to US or Asia, but plenty of direct flights to medium sized cities in EU instead. It's a convenient airport that covers a good part of our needs, but I doubt it will one day become a large hub and as Lufthansa is a star alliance member like Brussels Airlines, we generally escape Europe via FRA, MUC or ZRH.
At some point a couple of years ago, JET started using BRU as a scissor hub between India and USA, but it didn't last long: yields were poor and they eventually moved to AMS which had more to offer.
 
LG777
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:21 pm

Historically BRU was Sabena hub and not more. The company opened a series of cities in the US and with the Delta partnership also ended up in Cincinati.

Shortly before bankruptcy they also opened Washington and more was to come but money was missing as their shareholder (Swissair) was going belly up.
After that the airport didn't know what to do to recover the Sabena days numbers. The were left with two home carriers (Virgin Express and SN Brussels Airlines) fighting each other and not really creating value. Ice on the cake: Jet Airways was not really a stable solution for growth and their relation with Brussels Airlines didn't encourage the latter to invest in links with North America.

The merger of the two eventually and the, the Jet Airways deal and being member of Atlantic ++ pushed Brussels Airlines to recreate links to north america but they lost a decade.

BRU remain a diplomatic and economic city. But tourist is growing and the city is promoting it more aggressively that before.
A few years ago, you could find dirty cheap night in palace hotels in Brussels during the summer as their main business was conference during the year but were short of clients during the summer. This is not anymore the case. This are moving.
This does not mean that PIT will be the next city on the list. BOS and SFO are certainly the next one to be added.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:28 pm

seb76 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


I have no idea where you come from to write such silly comments !

By your definition, Switzerland would not be a real country either ??? (as it has confederated entities speaking different languages).
As for the dear hate, well, I must say we do have dumb and hateful people just like every country has, but we have also plenty of constructive people who make good use of their multilingual skills and connect people together.

BRU and CRL are notoriously used by lots of people from either North of France (Lille area) and Holland because it's often closer from their home than CDG or AMS, or because they obtain better tarif this way. You can also hear plenty of Flemish of Dutch people in CRL (they don't sound quite the same).

One of the big advantages of Brussels is actually also playing against it: the Thalys and Eurostar high speed trains that connect Brussels to London, Paris and Amsterdam make it extra-easy to take a plane in those hubs... on the days when Air France and the french or Belgian railways are not striking of course ;-)
The presence of the European Commission and NATO in Brussels bring indeed mostly diplomatic and lobbyists traffic more than tourists or average businessman, so not so much long-haul to US or Asia, but plenty of direct flights to medium sized cities in EU instead. It's a convenient airport that covers a good part of our needs, but I doubt it will one day become a large hub and as Lufthansa is a star alliance member like Brussels Airlines, we generally escape Europe via FRA, MUC or ZRH.
At some point a couple of years ago, JET started using BRU as a scissor hub between India and USA, but it didn't last long: yields were poor and they eventually moved to AMS which had more to offer.


I will respond about trains.
Train connections exist from Antwerp and Brussels Midi station to either AMS or CDG.
There is no Eurostar connection to any LON airport.
The train option is convenient sometimes, but it has several drawbacks. It takes almost 2 hours to either AMS or CDG, if you don't deliver luggage on time you have to carry it around on the train with little to no storage available, the train stations are not always easy to reach as they are situated int he middle of traffic-congested area's and parking facilities exist but they're as pricey as the airports and people don't know about them as they're not well advertised. I will also add a security factor, anybody can get on these trains without going through a metal detector and despite that you usually get a first class seat when you are on a flight ticket, you regularily see lowlife in the cars. Sometimes they are approached by the conductors and forced out at the next station because they are freeriding, but I always carry a knife with me when I'm on these trains. The train station at CDG is also a very high risk area that I don't like at all.

BRU has all cities of North America covered 1-stop by all alliances. The direct flights are notoriously low-yield to the point that many French and Dutch take NYC flights from BRU instead of their domestic hubs.

PHL used to be flown with B757 by US and ORD has seen a switch from AA to SN.
It is known that yields are poor for SN on all 3 flights and the Tuifly flight to MIA attracts a lot of traffic from Northern France and Netherlands for their notoriously low fares.

Belgium is primarily an outbound leisure market, so routes like New York work, but nobody will fly to IAH, ATL or PHL on a 1-week getaway.

The A321Neo LR could make routes like BOS and PHL profitable but only if feed is available at both ends. I could see B6 trying BOS-BRU sometime in the future.
LAX and SFO, there is talk about Air Belgium looking into it. But their first route to HKG is not even established yet. Also, the runway at CRL is probably too short for a 12+ hour Westbound departure.
 
evanb
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:09 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
UA and DL serve BRU from multiple hubs, namely ATL, JFK, ORD, EWR and IAD. Brussels airlines also flies to JFK and IAD, the latter, seasonaly. So the situation isn't that bad in my opinion.

DTW, PHL and DFW aren't star alliance hubs, plus the O&D is minimal, so 2 strikes there.

AA discontinued PHL-BRU, so that should tell you the lack of O&D between the two cities. It was operated by a 757 i believe.

IAH-BRU is a stretch also, with minimal O&D.


Agreed, it's actually pretty decent with ATL, JFK, ORD, EWR, IAD, YUL and YYZ. Many other European cities like GVA or BCN would like this sort of year-round service to N America.

The glaring holes are the lack of connections to West Coast (possibly to Star Alliance hubs like SFO or LAX) and OneWorld (which are reliant on LHR and MAD connections).
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


None of this is true. Belgium is a real country, it may be split up in two regions and speak different languages, but in the end the Belgians all feel the same, they feel Belgian. Look at what happened during the world championship, where Belgium actually ended up getting pretty far. Half the team spoke Dutch, the other half French. It didn't matter, they were one team. That goes for the country as well. Sure they got a bit of rivalry, that's only logical. But that doesn't mean they're two seperate countries.

As for the Belgian economy, it's performing really well. The Antwerp harbour is one of the largest harbours in Europe. Maybe not as big as Rotterdam, but pretty big nonetheless. Antwerp by the way is the heart of the international diamond trade, most diamonds in the world have been traded in Antwerp. Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers. Belgium actually has the most beer brands of all coutries in the world, you basically find a brewery at every street corner.

As for Belgians going up to Amsterdam to fly from there, I've never heard of such a thing. Keep in mind that from Belgium Amsterdam is rather far north and you have to cross the whole Randstad, which is a busy area and you're likely to be stuck in traffic. Actually lots of people from the south of the Netherlands prefer to fly from Brussels instead of Amsterdam. The only Dutch airport that does see a good number of Belgian passengers is Eindhoven, which is not far from the border.

It may be different on intercontinental flights, but for short haul flights Brussels is often cheaper than Amsterdam. Let alone it's convenience, for pretty much anyone "below the rivers" Brussels is more convenient than Amsterdam. And those rivers run through the Netherlands from the German border near Arnhem and Nijmegen straight west into the North Sea.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:17 pm

evanb wrote:
Agreed, it's actually pretty decent with ATL, JFK, ORD, EWR, IAD, YUL and YYZ. Many other European cities like GVA or BCN would like this sort of year-round service to N America.


And TUIfly year-round to Miami and I think Orlando, but not sure if Orlando still operates. Surprised TUI doesn't do a California flight.
a.
 
hooverman
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:27 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:

None of this is true. Belgium is a real country, it may be split up in two regions and speak different languages, but in the end the Belgians all feel the same, they feel Belgian. Look at what happened during the world championship, where Belgium actually ended up getting pretty far. Half the team spoke Dutch, the other half French. It didn't matter, they were one team. That goes for the country as well. Sure they got a bit of rivalry, that's only logical. But that doesn't mean they're two seperate countries.

As for the Belgian economy, it's performing really well. The Antwerp harbour is one of the largest harbours in Europe. Maybe not as big as Rotterdam, but pretty big nonetheless. Antwerp by the way is the heart of the international diamond trade, most diamonds in the world have been traded in Antwerp. Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers. Belgium actually has the most beer brands of all coutries in the world, you basically find a brewery at every street corner.

As for Belgians going up to Amsterdam to fly from there, I've never heard of such a thing. Keep in mind that from Belgium Amsterdam is rather far north and you have to cross the whole Randstad, which is a busy area and you're likely to be stuck in traffic. Actually lots of people from the south of the Netherlands prefer to fly from Brussels instead of Amsterdam. The only Dutch airport that does see a good number of Belgian passengers is Eindhoven, which is not far from the border.

It may be different on intercontinental flights, but for short haul flights Brussels is often cheaper than Amsterdam. Let alone it's convenience, for pretty much anyone "below the rivers" Brussels is more convenient than Amsterdam. And those rivers run through the Netherlands from the German border near Arnhem and Nijmegen straight west into the North Sea.


The unity only lasts as long as the world championship lasts.
There are quite a lot of Belgium people flying from AMS and most take the train on a combi ticket.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers.

Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...
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FlyingHollander
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:36 pm

hooverman wrote:
There are quite a lot of Belgium people flying from AMS and most take the train on a combi ticket.

And there are likely just as many Dutch people driving or taking the train to BRU. I did it myself several years ago, even though I live just northwest of AMS. If the price is right I will consider it, as will I, and many Dutch and Belgians, consider DUS if the price is right. The bleed from these 3 airports is multi directional, so I doubt that effects passenger numbers very much.

The huge KLM hub, the Dutch population that is 50% larger and the Dutch GDP that is 60% larger are what makes AMS so much larger than BRU.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:52 pm

Drive through the parking structure at DUS and you will see hundreds of Belgian license plates.
I can drive faster than you
 
hooverman
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:59 pm

FlyingHollander wrote:
hooverman wrote:
There are quite a lot of Belgium people flying from AMS and most take the train on a combi ticket.

And there are likely just as many Dutch people driving or taking the train to BRU. I did it myself several years ago, even though I live just northwest of AMS. If the price is right I will consider it, as will I, and many Dutch and Belgians, consider DUS if the price is right. The bleed from these 3 airports is multi directional, so I doubt that effects passenger numbers very much.

The huge KLM hub, the Dutch population that is 50% larger and the Dutch GDP that is 60% larger are what makes AMS so much larger than BRU.


I highly doubt there are just as many Dutch people taking the train to BRU. Sure there are some from under the rivers but most people from North and South Holland go to AMS. And thats where most people live. I live there and I wouldn’t go to BRU or DUS just to save a few Euro.
 
mfe777
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:31 pm

Belgium is lovely. I would not be surprised to see AA return there eventually, after pulling out when the airport attack happened. AA used to serve DFW-BRU way back (and MAN and ZRH). With a stronger hub in DFW and stronger economy than their first attempt, all of those cities could be successful by connecting to AA's largest hub. It would miss out on Northeast/Florida traffic, but those markets are well served already.

Brussels should be on more people's travel itineraries!
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:18 pm

I'm actually always surprised at the level of service UA has to BRU. Most times of the year, it is 3x daily 777 service. I believe that's approx as many seats than AA and DL together
 
BayAreaFan0
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:30 pm

Here's the long story short of it:


BRU is a Star Hub

SN is owned by Lufthansa Group

Pretty much all the Lufthansa Group's long haul network planning is done in Germany (along with LH and OS)

Lufthansa Group's mindset is that they have the United States pretty well covered with LH and OS and decide to use SN for other missions

United does about as much service as expected for an airport that size and JVs with LH on a number of routes

Lufthansa Group doesn't see as much of a need to grow SN's widebody fleet for the time being and keeps diverting aircraft deliveries from them to other airlines in their group
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:34 pm

hooverman wrote:
FlyingHollander wrote:
hooverman wrote:
There are quite a lot of Belgium people flying from AMS and most take the train on a combi ticket.

And there are likely just as many Dutch people driving or taking the train to BRU. I did it myself several years ago, even though I live just northwest of AMS. If the price is right I will consider it, as will I, and many Dutch and Belgians, consider DUS if the price is right. The bleed from these 3 airports is multi directional, so I doubt that effects passenger numbers very much.

The huge KLM hub, the Dutch population that is 50% larger and the Dutch GDP that is 60% larger are what makes AMS so much larger than BRU.


I highly doubt there are just as many Dutch people taking the train to BRU. Sure there are some from under the rivers but most people from North and South Holland go to AMS. And thats where most people live. I live there and I wouldn’t go to BRU or DUS just to save a few Euro.


I was today twice at Charleroi airport, and I can tell you that at the moment, full summer season, the car parks are crammed full of Dutch registered cars. The LCC airlines operating out of CRL offer a range of destinations that AMS/CDG do not, or offer prices that airlines at AMS/CDG cannot compete with

Anyway, from BRU, I think that you can fly to most "main" cities in Europe, no need to go to a neighbouring hub for that. With Turkish and the ME3 all serving BRU (each more than 7 per week), one-stop to all points east. Service by several Chinese airlines, Thai, Cathay Pacific, ANA and/or JL, more and more African airlines.

Flights to the USA to/from BRU: that just reflects demand, I guess. With the way the USA is being lead up the creek, I suspect that levels of flights between the USA and Europe in general might actually start to reduce, if the trade war worsens and The Donald's latest on Iran sanctions are anything to go by!

The opening question of this thread is a bit USA-centric. Here in Brussels, we have a healthy 2-airport "hub" from which we can all get to where we want to go to with little hassle and only one stop. Flying to Cleveland would be outside that category, and anyone who HAD to go there would necessarily connect somewhere in Europe, or in USA

I recall a definition of the EK model of flying VLAs everywhere - you only need 5 pax from each origin flying to each ex-Dubai destination to fill up all these VLAs. No-one would fly point-to-point just to get those 5 pax!
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:40 pm

BayAreaFan0 wrote:
Here's the long story short of it:


BRU is a Star Hub

SN is owned by Lufthansa Group

Pretty much all the Lufthansa Group's long haul network planning is done in Germany (along with LH and OS)

Lufthansa Group's mindset is that they have the United States pretty well covered with LH and OS and decide to use SN for other missions

United does about as much service as expected for an airport that size and JVs with LH on a number of routes

Lufthansa Group doesn't see as much of a need to grow SN's widebody fleet for the time being and keeps diverting aircraft deliveries from them to other airlines in their group
Then the most logical way to go for BRU is that LH studying to - sooner or later - add flights between BRU and Star Alliance hubs in the Americas without BRU service, if UA doesn't want to fly those routes.
This could mean SN in IAH, DEN, SFO, LAX or even CM hub PTY. IMHO, even if those aren't Star Alliance hubs, when looking BRU-U.S.A. LH should also check BRU-MIA/FLL and BRU-MCO.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:08 am

The bombing in 16 didn't help...but Belgium, as a whole, suffers from a glaring lack of government cohesion (in fact, google how many times they haven't had a government due to electoral issues). On top of that, imo, their levels of bureaucracy seem to reach stratospheric proportions when it comes to getting anything done...case and point: it shouldn't have taken me 1.5 hours to get through passport control to depart Schengen...and a lot of folks were complaining to the airport officials, and their reply was "we've been trying to hire more passport agents for two years now, and it's all sitting in paperwork."
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:54 am

SCQ83 wrote:
LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA are +60 million PAX each.

BRU is about 25 million PAX.

So in terms of PAX numbers is like comparing JFK to BWI.

Also Brussels and other Belgian cities have direct high-speed rail service to AMS and CDG.


Which also explains why there are so few flights between CDG and BRU (SN flies it 3x daily - 1x on a 5O 737, 2x on an A320) and KLM operates mostly Cityhopper between AMS and BRU - 34x weekly CityHopper and 1x weekly mainline B737). The flights are rarely O&D...usually connecting.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:55 am

Its just not a "big" airport. For what it is it has plenty of US flights. Not many airports of that size have that much connections across the pond.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:02 am

Belgium has a tiny and fractured home market at 11m people compared to Holland (17m), the UK (65m), France (66m), and of course Germany (83m).
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:17 am

Belgium, especially Flanders is a great place to do business. If the 797 and 321xlr get launched you’ll see lot more US flights.
 
hooverman
Posts: 212
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:37 am

sassiciai wrote:
hooverman wrote:
FlyingHollander wrote:
And there are likely just as many Dutch people driving or taking the train to BRU. I did it myself several years ago, even though I live just northwest of AMS. If the price is right I will consider it, as will I, and many Dutch and Belgians, consider DUS if the price is right. The bleed from these 3 airports is multi directional, so I doubt that effects passenger numbers very much.

The huge KLM hub, the Dutch population that is 50% larger and the Dutch GDP that is 60% larger are what makes AMS so much larger than BRU.


I highly doubt there are just as many Dutch people taking the train to BRU. Sure there are some from under the rivers but most people from North and South Holland go to AMS. And thats where most people live. I live there and I wouldn’t go to BRU or DUS just to save a few Euro.


I was today twice at Charleroi airport, and I can tell you that at the moment, full summer season, the car parks are crammed full of Dutch registered cars. The LCC airlines operating out of CRL offer a range of destinations that AMS/CDG do not, or offer prices that airlines at AMS/CDG cannot compete with

Anyway, from BRU, I think that you can fly to most "main" cities in Europe, no need to go to a neighbouring hub for that. With Turkish and the ME3 all serving BRU (each more than 7 per week), one-stop to all points east. Service by several Chinese airlines, Thai, Cathay Pacific, ANA and/or JL, more and more African airlines.

Flights to the USA to/from BRU: that just reflects demand, I guess. With the way the USA is being lead up the creek, I suspect that levels of flights between the USA and Europe in general might actually start to reduce, if the trade war worsens and The Donald's latest on Iran sanctions are anything to go by!

The opening question of this thread is a bit USA-centric. Here in Brussels, we have a healthy 2-airport "hub" from which we can all get to where we want to go to with little hassle and only one stop. Flying to Cleveland would be outside that category, and anyone who HAD to go there would necessarily connect somewhere in Europe, or in USA

I recall a definition of the EK model of flying VLAs everywhere - you only need 5 pax from each origin flying to each ex-Dubai destination to fill up all these VLAs. No-one would fly point-to-point just to get those 5 pax!


I think most cars you spot are people from the south who live close to the border. Most just fly from AMS. There are plenty of LCC’s from AMS to most tourist destinations in Europe with bottom low fares.
So besides some African cities what range of destinations does CRL/BRU have that AMS/CDG doesn’t have?
 
LH658
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:44 am

Literally within a 2 hr train from AMS and LHR. CDG is also not far either.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:20 am

hooverman wrote:
I think most cars you spot are people from the south who live close to the border. Most just fly from AMS. There are plenty of LCC’s from AMS to most tourist destinations in Europe with bottom low fares.


Other than EasyJet and Transavia there aren't many LCCs at Amsterdam, the presence of other LCCs is very limited. However a good number of people from the Randstad fly from Eindhoven. For example if you live in Utrecht Eindhoven is hardly further away than Amsterdam. Brussels might be a bit further away from the Randstad, but that's not the only place where people live.

I live just north of the Randstad myself and I regularly fly from Eindhoven. Sure Amsterdam is closer, but Eindhoven is very doable. Brussels would be too far away. However from people living in the south of the Netherlands it's not far away, it could actually be closer than Amsterdam.
 
hooverman
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:50 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I think most cars you spot are people from the south who live close to the border. Most just fly from AMS. There are plenty of LCC’s from AMS to most tourist destinations in Europe with bottom low fares.


Other than EasyJet and Transavia there aren't many LCCs at Amsterdam, the presence of other LCCs is very limited. However a good number of people from the Randstad fly from Eindhoven. For example if you live in Utrecht Eindhoven is hardly further away than Amsterdam. Brussels might be a bit further away from the Randstad, but that's not the only place where people live.

I live just north of the Randstad myself and I regularly fly from Eindhoven. Sure Amsterdam is closer, but Eindhoven is very doable. Brussels would be too far away. However from people living in the south of the Netherlands it's not far away, it could actually be closer than Amsterdam.


There are Ryanair, vueling, wizzair and others. But I understand what you are saying. If people can save a few Euro they will take the effort. I wouldn’t.
 
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MrBren
Posts: 154
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:50 am

There are at least 8 direct TGV trains a day between Brussels and CDG, the fastest taking 1h15m.
 
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sassiciai
Posts: 973
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:36 am

LH658 wrote:
Literally within a 2 hr train from AMS and LHR. CDG is also not far either.

Sorry, but there is no way you can get from Brussels to LHR using trains in anything approaching 2 hours. You might get to St Pancras station in 2 hours, but then how much extra time does it then take to get out to LHR

BA and SQ (to name but 2) offer flights from BRU to SE Asia, with a short back-tracking flight to LHR. They would never sell such travel if the trip to LHR was by Eurostar and then London public transport!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7389
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:07 am

I think it does not help BRU that Brussels has a second airport with CRL.

Otherwise it is really easy to connect by train from and to Brussels. Somebody here called it a disadvantage to arrive in the city center by train, I call it and advantage. I have often used AMS or CDG and than the train to Brussels.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:42 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I think it does not help BRU that Brussels has a second airport with CRL.

Otherwise it is really easy to connect by train from and to Brussels. Somebody here called it a disadvantage to arrive in the city center by train, I call it and advantage. I have often used AMS or CDG and than the train to Brussels.

But you could fly directly to BRU, take the train from the airport, and in 10 minutes arrive in the city centre. You can't get from AMS or CDG to the city centre in 10 minutes!

I would like to ask you to elaborate on why you think CRL has an unhelpful impact on BRU, in particular on its connections to the USA. Thanks
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 265
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:18 pm

I’m guessing Sabena extinction has something to do with it. I used to love to see the aircraft in Atlanta.
 
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nordikcam
Posts: 45
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:58 pm

MrBren wrote:
There are at least 8 direct TGV trains a day between Brussels and CDG, the fastest taking 1h15m.


Yeap with bagage service @ ZYR ( Bruxelles Midi ). You let bagages at AF/KL desk and you pick them up at the final destination ! I'm using BRU when I use my Miles and More Card ( SN - LX )...and Brussels Midi for going to CDG when I use my Flying Blue card. Sometimes the KL flight @ BRU for connecting at AMS and never the train between trainstation and Schiphol ( too long ! ). BRU is very efficient in my point of view. Hope they will open again the mythic Sky Hall of the 50's !!
 
727200
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:03 pm

Besides NATO, there isn't much else going for it.
 
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nordikcam
Posts: 45
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:07 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
I’m guessing Sabena extinction has something to do with it. I used to love to see the aircraft in Atlanta.


Of course big airports have strong home carriers: AMS > KL / CDG > AF / LHR > BA and FRA or MUC > LH.
BRU only has SN ( Brussels airlines ) after the disappearance of SN (SABENA).

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