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nordikcam
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:15 pm

727200 wrote:
Besides NATO, there isn't much else going for it.


As a Parisian, a long time ago that I opted for Brussels and its quality of life. I do not go more than far to Paris, but we move away from the subject. There is just a little more than NATO or SHAPE or the European Union in Brussels. No need to specify, I think!
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:26 pm

hooverman wrote:
I think most cars you spot are people from the south who live close to the border. Most just fly from AMS. There are plenty of LCC’s from AMS to most tourist destinations in Europe with bottom low fares.
So besides some African cities what range of destinations does CRL/BRU have that AMS/CDG doesn’t have?


Ryanair has +80 destinations from CRL, including every village and land strip in the Mediterranean. TUIFly Belgium has also a good number of routes and then also Wizzair. There is nothing remotely comparable at AMS or even EIN in terms of low-cost presence.

As for destinations, there are certainly a number of secondary or tertiary destinations from CRL which are not offered from BRU/AMS/CDG/EIN or are sold at high-sky prices.

For instance, a couple of years ago I flew TGD-CRL (Podgorica, the capital of Montenegro) for about 15 euros in winter. TGD has no flights with BRU or AMS; and only Montenegro Airlines to CDG which will charge you an arm and a leg. I am sure from AMS you can connect with Alitalia or Austrian, but then also it is not going to be 15 euros... maybe 20 times more. Since you are wasting time in a connecting flight flying AZ/OS/etc, you can easily drive down to CRL from NL.

For secondary French destinations I would say it is the same. Ryanair offers rock-bottom prices and many frequencies to places like Biarritz, Perpignan, Toulon... try flying to those places with AFKL, and for a family the savings add quickly.

Morocco (whether for VFR or holiday) is another advantage at CRL. Among Ryanair and TUIFly they literally cover every airport in Morocco no matter how small it is. So if you fancy Ouarzazate or Essaouira (holiday spots), CRL is the only place in Benelux with direct flights.
 
hooverman
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:29 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I think most cars you spot are people from the south who live close to the border. Most just fly from AMS. There are plenty of LCC’s from AMS to most tourist destinations in Europe with bottom low fares.
So besides some African cities what range of destinations does CRL/BRU have that AMS/CDG doesn’t have?


Ryanair has +80 destinations from CRL, including every village and land strip in the Mediterranean. TUIFly Belgium has also a good number of routes and then also Wizzair. There is nothing remotely comparable at AMS or even EIN in terms of low-cost presence.

As for destinations, there are certainly a number of secondary or tertiary destinations from CRL which are not offered from BRU/AMS/CDG/EIN or are sold at high-sky prices.

For instance, a couple of years ago I flew TGD-CRL (Podgorica, the capital of Montenegro) for about 15 euros in winter. TGD has no flights with BRU or AMS; and only Montenegro Airlines to CDG which will charge you an arm and a leg. I am sure from AMS you can connect with Alitalia or Austrian, but then also it is not going to be 15 euros... maybe 20 times more. Since you are wasting time in a connecting flight flying AZ/OS/etc, you can easily drive down to CRL from NL.

For secondary French destinations I would say it is the same. Ryanair offers rock-bottom prices and many frequencies to places like Biarritz, Perpignan, Toulon... try flying to those places with AFKL, and for a family the savings add quickly.

Morocco (whether for VFR or holiday) is another advantage at CRL. Among Ryanair and TUIFly they literally cover every airport in Morocco no matter how small it is. So if you fancy Ouarzazate or Essaouira (holiday spots), CRL is the only place in Benelux with direct flights.


Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
 
9QCLI
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:01 am

I am from eastern Belgium (Liege), and it is almost faster and cheaper to hop on a non stop high-speed train to DUS or FRA and catch a LH or Condor non stop flight to the West Coast, especially with the rail and fly DB tickets. I never ever use BRU for long haul flights.
 
JFLANY
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:32 am

nikeherc wrote:
I go back a ways and remember when Brussels was one of, if not, the first, European destinations served from Atlanta. That was of course back in the Sabena days. Then Delta got London and the rest is history.


Not sure when Sabena started service to ATL, but I'm certain that as of 1985, Sabena flew a 747-300 to ATL via LGW in both directions, with British Caledonian code-sharing on the ATL-LGW segment (and likely justifying Sabena's commitment to this route). The BRU route may have been flown n/s prior to or after then, however.

I believe DL flew to LGW on it's own metal as far back as 1978.
 
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deltacto
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am

JFLANY wrote:

Not sure when Sabena started service to ATL, but I'm certain that as of 1985, Sabena flew a 747-300 to ATL via LGW in both directions, with British Caledonian code-sharing on the ATL-LGW segment (and likely justifying Sabena's commitment to this route). The BRU route may have been flown n/s prior to or after then, however.


Sabena first flew BRU-ATL starting June 1, 1978 with 707's

https://www.sunshineskies.com/atlanta-late70s.html
 
JFLANY
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:23 pm

deltacto wrote:
Sabena first flew BRU-ATL starting June 1, 1978 with 707's

https://www.sunshineskies.com/atlanta-late70s.html


Thanks! Per your link DL was indeed first, with LGW commencing in April 1978. Thinking back, it was 1987 not 1985 that I recalled considering the Sabena/BCal codeshare (I was 15 and ended up routing via JFK to LHR on TW). Found an article referencing the arrangement, which allowed service to expand from 2x/wk to daily.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 201938.PDF
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers.

Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...


Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:38 pm

hooverman wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

None of this is true. Belgium is a real country, it may be split up in two regions and speak different languages, but in the end the Belgians all feel the same, they feel Belgian. Look at what happened during the world championship, where Belgium actually ended up getting pretty far. Half the team spoke Dutch, the other half French. It didn't matter, they were one team. That goes for the country as well. Sure they got a bit of rivalry, that's only logical. But that doesn't mean they're two seperate countries.

As for the Belgian economy, it's performing really well. The Antwerp harbour is one of the largest harbours in Europe. Maybe not as big as Rotterdam, but pretty big nonetheless. Antwerp by the way is the heart of the international diamond trade, most diamonds in the world have been traded in Antwerp. Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers. Belgium actually has the most beer brands of all coutries in the world, you basically find a brewery at every street corner.

As for Belgians going up to Amsterdam to fly from there, I've never heard of such a thing. Keep in mind that from Belgium Amsterdam is rather far north and you have to cross the whole Randstad, which is a busy area and you're likely to be stuck in traffic. Actually lots of people from the south of the Netherlands prefer to fly from Brussels instead of Amsterdam. The only Dutch airport that does see a good number of Belgian passengers is Eindhoven, which is not far from the border.

It may be different on intercontinental flights, but for short haul flights Brussels is often cheaper than Amsterdam. Let alone it's convenience, for pretty much anyone "below the rivers" Brussels is more convenient than Amsterdam. And those rivers run through the Netherlands from the German border near Arnhem and Nijmegen straight west into the North Sea.


The unity only lasts as long as the world championship lasts.
There are quite a lot of Belgium people flying from AMS and most take the train on a combi ticket.


I would say the unity has lasted since 1815 and continues to be strong, and yes I am sure quite a lot of Belgians (what you call Belgium people) fly from Amsterdam on a combi ticket, if more convenient and perhaps cost-effective than flying from BRU or another airport.
 
Flighty
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:43 pm

Benelux is served well via the hub at AMS. At BRU you ride the train to get to the hub.

BRU is available and has been tried. It is not "under-served," so this thread has a false premise. BRU was unable to justify more service because the demand to and from the US is poor. BRU is, as others have stated, a center of European bureaucracy but that does not create a lot of interest in USA-BRU flights. There are enough flights to get diplomats and NGO functionaries back and forth as they do their unending dance of centuries.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:45 pm

aviationaware wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Mainly because it's in Belgium....


What's your point?


Belgium is small, has very little economic power and the only thing Brussels has going for itself is the EU apparatchiks who live there, which does not translate into a lot of transatlantic passenger traffic, especially to destinations without political institutions. Also, Belgium is hardly a real country. It's basically two small countries that dearly hate one another, so probably the Flemish are rather going to Amsterdam than to Brussels.


Have you been to Belgium? It does have a lot to offer while it does not get the recognition of its neighbors to the north and south. But the Netherlands is not too dissimilar than Belgium, if not for Amsterdam how different are these 2 countries really? Referring to tourism and not the airports.

As for Belgium, visiting the western end is going through numerous WWI battle sites while driving through the eastern end (the Ardennes), one will encounter numerous WWII sites (Malmedy, Stavelot, Bastogne)

Anyway, it may be best to have lesser traffic into BRU, means less tourists who mainly visit Brugges anyway.
 
Jalap
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:49 pm

LG777 wrote:
The company opened a series of cities in the US and with the Delta partnership also ended up in Cincinati.

If I remember correctly, the link with Cincinnati was driven by one or more large companies like Procter & Gamble who had a lot of executive traffic to BRU. SN operated the route for a while, before (or after?) P&G even used and A320 on a scheduled basis to carry the executives. I spotted it once & I got a slide of it but can't find that slide :(

Edit, it was discussed here: viewtopic.php?t=233859
Last edited by Jalap on Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:51 pm

Flighty wrote:
Benelux is served well via the hub at AMS. At BRU you ride the train to get to the hub.

BRU is available and has been tried. It is not "under-served," so this thread has a false premise. BRU was unable to justify more service because the demand to and from the US is poor. BRU is, as others have stated, a center of European bureaucracy but that does not create a lot of interest in USA-BRU flights. There are enough flights to get diplomats and NGO functionaries back and forth as they do their unending dance of centuries.


BENELUX is outdated and has evolved into the EU anyway, and isn't FRA more convenient to reach for Luxembourgeois anyway, or another option at least? Again, people will fly out of the more convenient and cost-effective (for most) airport, Belgians have the luxury I suppose to get to fly out of their own airport at BRU, or pick a number or aiports not too far away if they so choose (AMS, CDG, ORY, FRA to name a few)
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
IAH-BRU is a stretch also, with minimal O&D.


From IAH one could fly to EWR and connect to BRU. It would also be possible to fly IAH-AMS on either KLM or UA and use ground transportation to get to Brussels. Flying IAH-AMS has the advantage of being a longer flight, so getting enough sleep might be easier.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:11 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Other things that make Belgium famous are it's chocolate and it's huge variety of beers.

Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...


Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.

I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:
 
flflyer
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:27 pm

I fly DL into BRU and find Biz award seats are easier to find.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...


Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.

I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:

I would like to ask you if you have ever visited anywhere in Belgium? For that matter, have you been to The Netherlands? You again demonstrate a lack of understanding while pontificating, this time of the history, culture, and performance in what is now Belgium. Flanders in the 17th century was the centre of knowledge and learning in Europe, the Flemish masters as a group of artists, the architecture in Belgium that makes The Netherlands look actually quite horrible

As you say, Belgian beer and chocolates are exported (because of their quality), and can be found in most other countries. It should be no surprise that you can find tulips, canals, bicycle trails, river cruises, windmills elsewhere, including Belgium. The Belgian art galleries have nothing to fear about those in the NL!

Your opinion and mine about Keesje differ, he is one of the more interesting and provocative posters left here, even if you disagree with his POV. There are many other posters here that are much less interesting, and 99% predictable, including their criticism of other posters!

On the joke front, your joke about your nemesis Keesje reminds me about the joke of your a.net poetic signature and its jocular multiple grammatical errors. I wonder why you don't rectify that!
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...


Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.

I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:


So you responded to the post with little first-hand knowledge regarding Belgium other than what you may have read online? I lived there for 10 years and return frequently, usually flying directly into BRU from IAD too!

Rhine cruises in the Netherlands? Surely I would think most people go to Germany to cruise the Rhine, but I am not for sure. And Peter Paul Rubens, Magritte are two painters you may have heard of, and both Belgian.

How could one forget about one of the greatest jazz instruments ever created... by a Belgian no less! Adolphe Sax and the saxophone, hailing from Dinant I believe, a wonderful little town well worth a visit too.

And while drinking imported Belgian beers is easy enough to do, nothing beats drinking beer at the brewery and seeing the abbeys those beers hail from: Maredsous, Westmalle, Achel, Chimay, West Vleteren, St Bernardus, Achouffe (one of my favorite breweries in the Ardennes)....

Tourists who want to venture outside of Brussels and Brugges may enjoy Gent, Antwerpen, Mechelen, Ieper, Poperinge in the Flanders, and Namur, aforementioned Dinant, Rochefort, Bastogne in the Ardennes region. I am sure the Netherlands has some nice towns to visit outside Amsterdam, I hear Mastriicht is a nice city, although the Netherlands does not have many hills!

Not to fear about museums, Belgium has a few of those. And Tintin is Belgian as are most comic book characters (the Schtroumpfs, Gaston LaGaffe, Lucky Luke to name but 3)

Can't really recreate a good Liege waffle, I have tried but failed miserably.

The poster asked why BRU doesn't get similar service to CDG, AMS and FRA, he didn't say BRU should get as much service as those cities. But Belgium as a country does have lots to offer with regards to tourism if one takes the time to explore it outside Brugges and Bruxelles.

And why should Belgium step up its tourism game? I much prefer it as it is with most parts unspoiled by hordes of tourist busses, only to be discovered and enjoyed by those of us who like to venture further afield of the typical tourist cities (Paris, Amsterdam, London), though I suppose I could look at pictures of those Belgian cities on the computer as I enjoy an imported Belgian beer and sniff my imported Dutch tulips?
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:40 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
I’m guessing Sabena extinction has something to do with it. I used to love to see the aircraft in Atlanta.


You do realize that SN Brussels Airlines was born from SABENA's demise no? Granted it is about half the size.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:41 pm

727200 wrote:
Besides NATO, there isn't much else going for it.


Such an uneducated comment that shows your apparent contempt for what is a wonderful little country, but thanks for contributing nothing of value to the thread.
 
Flighty
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:41 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Benelux is served well via the hub at AMS. At BRU you ride the train to get to the hub.

BRU is available and has been tried. It is not "under-served," so this thread has a false premise. BRU was unable to justify more service because the demand to and from the US is poor. BRU is, as others have stated, a center of European bureaucracy but that does not create a lot of interest in USA-BRU flights. There are enough flights to get diplomats and NGO functionaries back and forth as they do their unending dance of centuries.


BENELUX is outdated and has evolved into the EU anyway, and isn't FRA more convenient to reach for Luxembourgeois anyway, or another option at least? Again, people will fly out of the more convenient and cost-effective (for most) airport, Belgians have the luxury I suppose to get to fly out of their own airport at BRU, or pick a number or aiports not too far away if they so choose (AMS, CDG, ORY, FRA to name a few)


Good, your higher knowledge is much valued here. I was just giving my thoughts about the trains having visited NL and BE as a tourist and using Amsterdam. The US perspective has some relevance, and I know a little, including why a particular US-BRU flight was cancelled, but not much about the region.

Here's an example of one that didn't make it, CLT-BRU.
https://www.anna.aero/2014/06/11/us-air ... charlotte/

Why? Lack of seasonal tourism demand. BRU isn't among the higher tier European tourism destinations from the US, that's all. But, that's the story of this thread.
Last edited by Flighty on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting, but AMS has chocolate, beer, brothels, "coffee houses", and a DL+KLM hub...


Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.

I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:


"Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front" : OMG...I guess you should explain to the authorities how to prevent hordes of tourists in Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp or the city center in Brussels. Bruges is with Venice, Barcelona and Amsterdam a city where the flow must absolutely be dammed!

You probably never had to go through Belgium because you mention for our Dutch friends, the mills, the canals, the bicycles, a beautiful painter ... you could have evoked the same canals, bicycles, the same Flemish mills and painters as Rubens for example. But it's true we do not have Heineken ... phew, it's not beer and it's not being bad with our Dutch friends before Moerdijk that there is at least one culinary culture in Belgium !

In fact : It's the same country since the XVI century with Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South !! And Brussels was till the middle of XIX century a flemish city ! Welcome here ! ;)
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:46 pm

Flighty wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Benelux is served well via the hub at AMS. At BRU you ride the train to get to the hub.

BRU is available and has been tried. It is not "under-served," so this thread has a false premise. BRU was unable to justify more service because the demand to and from the US is poor. BRU is, as others have stated, a center of European bureaucracy but that does not create a lot of interest in USA-BRU flights. There are enough flights to get diplomats and NGO functionaries back and forth as they do their unending dance of centuries.


BENELUX is outdated and has evolved into the EU anyway, and isn't FRA more convenient to reach for Luxembourgeois anyway, or another option at least? Again, people will fly out of the more convenient and cost-effective (for most) airport, Belgians have the luxury I suppose to get to fly out of their own airport at BRU, or pick a number or aiports not too far away if they so choose (AMS, CDG, ORY, FRA to name a few)


Good, your higher knowledge is much valued here. I was just giving my thoughts about the trains having visited NL and BE as a tourist and using Amsterdam. The US perspective has some relevance, and I know a little, including why a particular US-BRU flight was cancelled, but not much about the region.


Glad I can help, and which particular US-BRU flight are you refering to and what was the reason for its cancellation, or is that a secret never to be divulged? I would question why people comment on a thread with little knowledge about the region, you did bring up BENELUX for some reason? As has been made clear, BRU and Belgium is more than diplomats and NGO functionaries, and NATO too. Amsterdam and Paris are just "sexier" destinations I suppose.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:50 pm

nordikcam wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:

Comparing Heineken to the over 400 Belgian beers to be enjoyed? Though I am sure there are more Dutch beers, but still.
What Dutch chocolates can you name? Godiva, Neuhaus, Corne Port Royal, Cote D'Or are all Belgian (and found in the Netherlands)
Amsterdam can keep its brothels, a far cry from what I assume they used to be.

I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:


"Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front" : OMG...I guess you should explain to the authorities how to prevent hordes of tourists in Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp or the city center in Brussels. Bruges is with Venice, Barcelona and Amsterdam a city where the flow must absolutely be dammed!

You probably never had to go through Belgium because you mention for our Dutch friends, the mills, the canals, the bicycles, a beautiful painter ... you could have evoked the same canals, bicycles, the same Flemish mills and painters as Rubens for example. But it's true we do not have Heineken ... phew, it's not beer and it's not being bad with our Dutch friends before Moerdijk that there is at least one culinary culture in Belgium !

In fact : It's the same country since the XVI century with Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South !! And Brussels was till the middle of XIX century a flemish city ! Welcome here ! ;)


I like you, but I was also guilty of only bringing Heineken as a Dutch beer. La Trappe is Dutch and delicious, although I believe it was created by French brewers who escaped from France during WWII perhaps, hence the French name. And another delectable Dutch brew is Zundert. Both La Trappe and Zundert are trappist beers too, the only 2 Dutch trappist beers. There are 6 Belgian, 1 Austrian, and 1 American (yes, American!) trappist beers.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:53 pm

Regarding tourism in Brussels, I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the most famous statue in the entire city: Manneken Pis (the urinating boy). It's only a little statue, but very famous. Now this is something that attracts tourists from around the world.
 
Jetty
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:58 pm

This whole discussion about whether Brussels is worth visiting is hardly relevant for air service. What matters is the number of tourists actually visiting: Amsterdam ranks 13th worldwide while Brussels doesn't make the top 30. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/th ... 67901.html

It probably doesn't help that Brussels is known as the 'jihadi capital of Europe'. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... di-capital
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:58 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Regarding tourism in Brussels, I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the most famous statue in the entire city: Manneken Pis (the urinating boy). It's only a little statue, but very famous. Now this is something that attracts tourists from around the world.


And there is the female counterpart, Janneke Pis, though she is harder to find and a good thing too, but she is right across the Delirium Cafe where the beer menu is the size of a phone book (if you can recall what a phone book looks like)
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Jetty wrote:
This whole discussion about whether Brussels is worth visiting is hardly relevant for air service. What matters is the number of tourists actually visiting: Amsterdam ranks 13th worldwide while Brussels doesn't make the top 30. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/th ... 67901.html

It probably doesn't help that Brussels is known as the 'jihadi capital of Europe'. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... di-capital


So air service isn't to serve places that are worth visiting? Strange! I do realize there is the business and government aspect behind air service, but tourism is also one of the components behind providing air service or why are there flights to the Seychelles for example?

Well that is a 2 year old article, but thanks for the memories. And Paris has had more terrorist attacks yet tourists still visit.
 
Jetty
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:15 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
So air service isn't to serve places that are worth visiting? Strange! I do realize there is the business and government aspect behind air service, but tourism is also one of the components behind providing air service or why are there flights to the Seychelles for example?

Indeed, air service is for places that people actually want to visit, regardless of what the outcome of a debate whether it would be worth visiting would be. When it comes to business: AMS is the main airport with intercontinental service for 15 Fortune 500 companies, BRU for 1 (InBev). Thus the difference in air service is entirely explainable and BRU isn't 'underserved'.

Well that is a 2 year old article, but thanks for the memories. And Paris has had more terrorist attacks yet tourists still visit.

Again, it's about perception and not reality. Though naming Brussels as jihadi capital isn't without merit. Many of those attacks in Paris you mention had links to people from Brussels, and Belgium has the highest per capita number of ISIS fighters in Western Europe.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:19 pm

Why's BRU so underserved go major US hubs?
How about because BRU no longer is the same big attractive hub it was when it had Sabena?
Those new or re-started BRU US hubs flights, either year-around or seasonal will happen only when LH (who runs SN) has a desire to build-up BRU hub adding some more key European and selected Middle East / Caucasus flights which may attract UA or entice SN to fly those (mostly Star Alliance) hubs to BRU routes w/notable exception: SN MIA/FLL-BRU and who knows LAS-BRU plus SEA-BRU too.
 
ericalexandre76
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:27 pm

Jetty wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
So air service isn't to serve places that are worth visiting? Strange! I do realize there is the business and government aspect behind air service, but tourism is also one of the components behind providing air service or why are there flights to the Seychelles for example?

Indeed, air service is for places that people actually want to visit, regardless of what the outcome of a debate whether it would be worth visiting would be. When it comes to business: AMS is the main airport with intercontinental service for 15 Fortune 500 companies, BRU for 1 (InBev). Thus the difference in air service is entirely explainable and BRU isn't 'underserved'.

Well that is a 2 year old article, but thanks for the memories. And Paris has had more terrorist attacks yet tourists still visit.

Again, it's about perception and not reality. Though naming Brussels as jihadi capital isn't without merit. Many of those attacks in Paris you mention had links to people from Brussels, and Belgium has the highest per capita number of ISIS fighters in Western Europe.


Because tourists worry more about where the terrorists come from than the targets/cities they hit?

I personally don't mind less tourists in Belgium, more for me to enjoy without being overcrowded, and I do try and avoid Brugges as much as possible.

Have you been to Belgium? Or the Netherlands? Or France? Not asking about Brussels, Amsterdam, Paris, but the countries those cities sit in. They all have something to offer different than the others, but if business is your main interest then by all means stick to Amsterdam.

And not saying BRU is underserved or needs more service, just taking issue with posters claiming BRU and Belgium don't have much to offer.
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:05 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm sure Belgian beer and chocolate are wonderful, but it's hard to make the point that BRU should get similar service to AMS.

Maybe Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front?

When I think of NL I think of the above, along with tulips, windmills, Van Gogh, Anne Frank, canals, bicycle trails, Rhine cruises, etc.

When I think of Belgium I think of chocolate, beer and waffles, all things not to hard to import if/when desired.

One negative for NL: they have Keesje! :biggrin:


"Belgium needs to step up its game on the tourism front" : OMG...I guess you should explain to the authorities how to prevent hordes of tourists in Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp or the city center in Brussels. Bruges is with Venice, Barcelona and Amsterdam a city where the flow must absolutely be dammed!

You probably never had to go through Belgium because you mention for our Dutch friends, the mills, the canals, the bicycles, a beautiful painter ... you could have evoked the same canals, bicycles, the same Flemish mills and painters as Rubens for example. But it's true we do not have Heineken ... phew, it's not beer and it's not being bad with our Dutch friends before Moerdijk that there is at least one culinary culture in Belgium !

In fact : It's the same country since the XVI century with Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South !! And Brussels was till the middle of XIX century a flemish city ! Welcome here ! ;)


I like you, but I was also guilty of only bringing Heineken as a Dutch beer. La Trappe is Dutch and delicious, although I believe it was created by French brewers who escaped from France during WWII perhaps, hence the French name. And another delectable Dutch brew is Zundert. Both La Trappe and Zundert are trappist beers too, the only 2 Dutch trappist beers. There are 6 Belgian, 1 Austrian, and 1 American (yes, American!) trappist beers.


A+ for you...I did not know there was an american trappist. Thx for the info ! :bouncy:
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:13 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:

And not saying BRU is underserved or needs more service, just taking issue with posters claiming BRU and Belgium don't have much to offer.


So evident ! :lol:
 
RobertS975
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:35 pm

727200 wrote:
Besides NATO, there isn't much else going for it.


I don't know about that... there are famous statues!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manneken_Pis
 
greenair727
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:06 pm

727200 wrote:
Besides NATO, there isn't much else going for it.


Disagree. Brussels has its own charm. Also a beautiful Grand Place plus a great auto museum.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:29 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
I will also add a security factor, anybody can get on these trains without going through a metal detector and despite that you usually get a first class seat when you are on a flight ticket, you regularily see lowlife in the cars. Sometimes they are approached by the conductors and forced out at the next station because they are freeriding, but I always carry a knife with me when I'm on these trains. The train station at CDG is also a very high risk area that I don't like at all.

I always carry a knife with me when I'm on these trains? That's really sad. I suppose some people would classify you as lowlife than. I can imagine someone carrying a knife while being on an outdoor adventure in the woods. But never while travelling on public transport.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:32 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
So you responded to the post with little first-hand knowledge regarding Belgium other than what you may have read online?

You've written very well about why Belgium should be appreciated.

However, this thread is about why in fact US airlines do not provide high levels/amounts of service to Belgium.

You should read my remarks as addressing the later (why there are fewer visitors) rather than the former (why there should be more visitors).

You ask if my perceptions come from what I've read online.

Well, yes, a lot comes from what one reads online, or via books, or TV shows, as well as friends and families who've been.

That's how tourism works.

We don't all have generous amounts of time and money to visit lots of offshore destinations to go and get first hand knowledge.

We rely on what we learn from media, popular culture, friends and family to help us chose the places we want to go.

I can say from a lifetime of living in the US that many people I know have visited NL and given positive feedback on the experience, and many more who have expressed an interest in going.

I'm struggling to recall any that have visited Belgium nor even even suggested doing such.

That doesn't mean it isn't a great place to go visit, it just means it's not 'top of mind' for the people I know, and the numbers suggest it's more than just me in this situation.

If I'm wrong, then let's just shut down this thread because there's nothing to be discussed.

On the other hand, the numbers say otherwise.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:50 pm

seb76 and GL777, thank you for your informative posts. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
I can say from a lifetime of living in the US that many people I know have visited NL and given positive feedback on the experience, and many more who have expressed an interest in going.

I'm struggling to recall any that have visited Belgium nor even even suggested doing such.

That doesn't mean it isn't a great place to go visit, it just means it's not 'top of mind' for the people I know, and the numbers suggest it's more than just me in this situation.


I think that's the answer to the question, Brussels is unknown. It may have a lot to offer, but people don't know that. They falsely assume it has nothing to offer and stay away. However, the few people that dare to visit Brussels anyway are in for a surprise, a beautiful city.

Those calling Brussels the jihad capital of Europe, indeed, there are suburbs you really don't want to visit. They exist in every major city, but since they're far away from the city center they don't matter. Tourists don't go there anyway.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:48 pm

On a side note, I find it interesting that the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan is a majority owner of of BRU.
 
TSA125
Posts: 133
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:43 pm

On a similar note, does anyone know how UA is performing in BRU? They are scaling their ORD-BRU flight down from daily 772 to daily 763 by W18.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:15 am

Revelation wrote:
ericalexandre76 wrote:
So you responded to the post with little first-hand knowledge regarding Belgium other than what you may have read online?

You've written very well about why Belgium should be appreciated.

However, this thread is about why in fact US airlines do not provide high levels/amounts of service to Belgium.

You should read my remarks as addressing the later (why there are fewer visitors) rather than the former (why there should be more visitors).

You ask if my perceptions come from what I've read online.

Well, yes, a lot comes from what one reads online, or via books, or TV shows, as well as friends and families who've been.

That's how tourism works.

We don't all have generous amounts of time and money to visit lots of offshore destinations to go and get first hand knowledge.

We rely on what we learn from media, popular culture, friends and family to help us chose the places we want to go.

I can say from a lifetime of living in the US that many people I know have visited NL and given positive feedback on the experience, and many more who have expressed an interest in going.

I'm struggling to recall any that have visited Belgium nor even even suggested doing such.

That doesn't mean it isn't a great place to go visit, it just means it's not 'top of mind' for the people I know, and the numbers suggest it's more than just me in this situation.

If I'm wrong, then let's just shut down this thread because there's nothing to be discussed.

On the other hand, the numbers say otherwise.

Revelation has a great point. Belgium isn't high on the US radar for business or leisure travel. The later I know often enables the former.

To others:

For example, many American want to go to Munich (Museums or Octoberfest, why doesn't really matter). On those trips they might (or might not) develop business relationships. One of my close friends now routinely travels to Germany due to business connections he made in Munich while [strike]drinking[/strike] going to technology museums with myself a *long* time ago.

One of my Uncles went to Prague on a whim, probably to get drunk. He came back, sold everything he owned, and invested there in fast food franchises. He now makes more in a day than I make in a year (good for him). Although he moved back home (USA) and commutes by his Giv. :cry: (I want my own jet... He wisely bought used) I believe tourism stimulates business.

How is Brussels increasing the awareness of Americans of tourist travel? I cannot recall ever driving by a Belgium billboard advertisement. I can recall... wow, I went to thirty and stopped counting (I do work near LAX...).

How is hotel demand? Is there a shortage of hotel rooms? If so, FIX IT!

And why worry about US tourists? Chinese tourists outspend us...

We have options to the world, give us a reason ("mindshare") to visit. Communicate that reason. (Make is simple.) Ideally in a Disney movie with some hottie singing through your Capitol... Seriously, where is the Sound of Music, Roman Holiday, etc.

I looked for a list of films I've seen set in Brussels... nada.

For some cities, the list of films was HUGE! I mean, at least have CSI Brussels... :devil:

Lightsaber

PS,
I searched for how many Americans were from Belgium. I didn't find any source authoritative, but they were at 0.1% of our population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Americans

We have very little vacation time and so many options... Advertise!
 
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keesje
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:04 am

I think in Brussels next to Nato, there is also an organsition based named "European Union", but I gues you don't need many direct connections to the US for that. An occasional mail or twitter is enough to accomplish e.g. a trade war.
 
tomcat
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:42 am

I don't think that tourism is the most relevant point in this discussion. Of course, tourism can boost the traffic at an airport, but much more is required to make an airport an intercontinental hub than this low yielding traffic. I believe the first contributor to an intercontinental hub is the presence of large domestic multinational companies in the catchment area of the airport. In this field, Belgium is scoring fairly low in comparison to the Netherlands or to Paris and Frankfurt areas. Belgium has a very open economy, but it's mainly made of SMEs which are mostly trading with the neighboring countries. This regional business is only feeding regional air transport and high speed train networks and is as well carried out by car. Remember that within a 500 miles radius around Brussels, you reach a substantial share of the European GDP and population. This position has also supported a continuous flow of overseas investments from US companies since after WW-II (chemical and pharmaceutical industries, consumer goods companies, as well as some manufacturing companies), but this is true for the Netherlands as well. These US subsidiaries established in Belgium are probably the greatest support to the daily flights operated by the US airlines. Here are a few of these US companies with large corporate, R&D, manufacturing or logistics centers in Belgium: P&G, Johnson & Johnson, Coca Cola, ExxonMobil,...

Tourism also tends to be seasonal, while international trade is much less seasonal on average. Also, when considering tourism, I would evaluate in first instance the number of tourists originating from Belgium, ie Belgian people traveling abroad. This is by far the market supplying the greatest number of tourists to BRU. Again, The Netherlands are scoring very high in this department.

Another point to consider is that the legacy carrier in BRU has always been a very weak carrier. As such, it was not very conducive to the establishment of an intercontinental hub. Its ambitions were nowhere near the ones of KLM for example. It would be interesting to compare the amount of capital invested in the airlines industry over the years in Belgium vs the Netherlands. Add to that that BRU has little room for expansion, this is again not supportive of an unrestrained expansion, even though it has never been a limiting factor so far.

Overall in 2017, despite low numbers of visiting tourists, despite not having the most supportive business background and despite having no domestic traffic, the Belgian airports (mainly BRU and CRL) have welcome more than 32 million passengers, this is nearly 3 times as much as the country population. This is a fair score. In terms of freight, Belgian airports (mainly LGG and BRU) have got a throughput exceeding 1.25 million tons. These substantial freight figures are a reflection of the advantageous position of Belgium in the heart of the blue banana.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4325
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:02 pm

I love Belgium, it’s a wonderful country. And I don’t really want to blow my secret, but go to Bruges before you die! I spent a week in Bruges last summer and I count it among my top 10 most wonderful places I’ve been in the world. Breathtakingly beautiful, canals, great small hotels an facsinating history. The food!!! I ate the local dish of beef stew poured on top of fries every night (chocolate & beef stew), wow!
Indeed when searching flights to destinations to cities United doesn’t serve non-stop, on UA.com right after LH connections are connections through BRU. I have strongly considered it on more than a few occasions because BRU is such a nice and calm airport to navigate. Last year I almost went to Prague Newark-BRU-Prague. Unfortunately I couldn’t go, but it was far more attractive a routing than FRA etc, and IMHO Brussels Airlines is very nice flying throughout Europe. In fact I would love to fly a Brussels WB long haul.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23088
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:45 pm

tomcat wrote:
I don't think that tourism is the most relevant point in this discussion. Of course, tourism can boost the traffic at an airport, but much more is required to make an airport an intercontinental hub than this low yielding traffic. I believe the first contributor to an intercontinental hub is the presence of large domestic multinational companies in the catchment area of the airport. In this field, Belgium is scoring fairly low in comparison to the Netherlands or to Paris and Frankfurt areas. Belgium has a very open economy, but it's mainly made of SMEs which are mostly trading with the neighboring countries. This regional business is only feeding regional air transport and high speed train networks and is as well carried out by car. Remember that within a 500 miles radius around Brussels, you reach a substantial share of the European GDP and population. This position has also supported a continuous flow of overseas investments from US companies since after WW-II (chemical and pharmaceutical industries, consumer goods companies, as well as some manufacturing companies), but this is true for the Netherlands as well. These US subsidiaries established in Belgium are probably the greatest support to the daily flights operated by the US airlines. Here are a few of these US companies with large corporate, R&D, manufacturing or logistics centers in Belgium: P&G, Johnson & Johnson, Coca Cola, ExxonMobil,...

Tourism also tends to be seasonal, while international trade is much less seasonal on average. Also, when considering tourism, I would evaluate in first instance the number of tourists originating from Belgium, ie Belgian people traveling abroad. This is by far the market supplying the greatest number of tourists to BRU. Again, The Netherlands are scoring very high in this department.

Another point to consider is that the legacy carrier in BRU has always been a very weak carrier. As such, it was not very conducive to the establishment of an intercontinental hub. Its ambitions were nowhere near the ones of KLM for example. It would be interesting to compare the amount of capital invested in the airlines industry over the years in Belgium vs the Netherlands. Add to that that BRU has little room for expansion, this is again not supportive of an unrestrained expansion, even though it has never been a limiting factor so far.

Overall in 2017, despite low numbers of visiting tourists, despite not having the most supportive business background and despite having no domestic traffic, the Belgian airports (mainly BRU and CRL) have welcome more than 32 million passengers, this is nearly 3 times as much as the country population. This is a fair score. In terms of freight, Belgian airports (mainly LGG and BRU) have got a throughput exceeding 1.25 million tons. These substantial freight figures are a reflection of the advantageous position of Belgium in the heart of the blue banana.

To become a headquarters, one must enable local business to grow. This quickly becomes an off topic discussion of how Brussels could accelerate business growth.

I believe step 1 is more tourism. Then figure out how to promote small business formation and remove obstacles that small businesses face becoming mid-size or large. I believe the cost of business failure is too high. One reason California, Texas, and Florida have so many business startups is that hiring people isn't penalized.

Flights are a function of economics.

Lightsaber
 
greenjet
Posts: 875
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:53 am

MAH4546 wrote:
neomax wrote:
The three largest trans-Atlantic gateways - JFK, EWR and MIA - have flights to BRU.


I'm curious as to how you are gauging size here. Innovata data shows MIA to be behind JFK, EWR, LAX, ORD and IAD in terms of seats to Europe in the 12 months through 30th September. If you include the Middle East, MIA is also behind BOS.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26679
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Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:10 pm

greenjet wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
neomax wrote:
The three largest trans-Atlantic gateways - JFK, EWR and MIA - have flights to BRU.


I'm curious as to how you are gauging size here. Innovata data shows MIA to be behind JFK, EWR, LAX, ORD and IAD in terms of seats to Europe in the 12 months through 30th September. If you include the Middle East, MIA is also behind BOS.


Local market size. MIA is a larger O&D market to Europe than LAX/ORD/WAS.
 
Conti764
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Why is BRU so underserved to major US hubs?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:15 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Drive through the parking structure at DUS and you will see hundreds of Belgian license plates.


Drive through the parkings at BRU and you'll see just as much Dutch plates...

A lot of Belgians fly via DUS because it's often much cheaper booking a holiday in Germany than in Belgium. A lot of Belgians tend to go on holiday through The Netherlands as well for the same reason. Holidays are often different in both countries and while Belgians are allready in high season, it's still low season in Holland. I made that mistake two years ago and flew via AMS. It was such a bad experience I will never do it again. AMS can't seem to cope with the huge streams of passengers it has.

To the point. AMS has always been bigger then BRU, partially due to better management at KL, compared to SN, partially due to the bigger overseas history of The Netherlands and the more mercantile attitide of the Dutch as a while.

While AMS took a high flight to 60M+ pax, BRU got hit with both a bankruptcy of its home carrier, resulting in neighbouring airlines swarming the airport offering links through their respectitive hubs and got hit with a devestating terrorist attack right at the moment of explosive growth.

Now BRU is left with an airline that is on the verge of dissapearing into a bland European low cost airline and an actual hostile take over by LH. Things might have looked differently if SN (with 9W?) ended up with Oneworld iso unlogical Star Alliance and became a 1W-hub.

Tourism got hit very hard as well, due to the terrorist attacks. If Belgian police didn't expand its efforts and wouldn't have been on the verge of dismantling the infamous terror cell around Salah Abdeslam, the attack on BRU would probably have taken place at AMS or CDG... It was because of the pressure by Belgian police, the terrorist expedited their plans and shifted focus to BRU...
The Netherlands has its own issues with organized crime, but seems to be a terror free haven compared to Belgium, France, Germany and the UK...

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