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flymco753
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If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:59 pm

I thought this was an interesting topic to bring up since there's a possibility that this could happen in the near term.

If/when there will be a way for direct flights between the US and Lebanon, what cities will be amongst the first to get a nonstop flight?

Most likely: JFK, DTW, and IAD
Could happen: ORD, LAX, SFO
Least likely but probable: IAH, BOS, DFW
 
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mercure1
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:05 am

Near term?

I seriously doubt it with the current makeup of the Lebanese government and potential security ramifications.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:07 am

Don't see any such service any time soon.
The government and security situation in Lebanon is not exactly conducive for such links.
Any how MEA does not exactly have the fleet for such nonstop service.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:07 am

Not going to happen for quite some time, but the usual suspects...JFK, long shot IAD.
 
csavel
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 am

Yeah, I don't see it happening, other than as a prestige route. The only likely place is JFK. Long shot LAX but much further.

Longer shot DTW, yeah I know huge Lebanese and Arab diaspora, but as I've noted before, that diaspora has got to be much larger than you think to generate pax who will sit upfront. The more typical diaspora passenger is a family, mom, dad, 2-3 kids. They are very price sensitive and will eschew a non-stop to save money for five fares. Plus they more or less have to travel in summer season when the kids our out of school. a $200 cheaper one stop is $1,000 cheaper multiplied by five.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:31 am

YUL will be the first city in NA to get service. JFK comes next, then probably IAD, DTW, or MIA.
Not happening anytime soon however...
 
Planeflyer
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:45 am

In 2250... maybe.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:46 am

Why do you think there is any possibility for this?
 
mozart
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If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:49 pm

As likely as Southwest flying nonstop La Guardia-Pyongyang with an Airbus A220.
 
devron
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 pm

Why is everyone so pesimistic? Okay currently Hezbollah has a stronghold near the airport but Lebanon is not a failed state. The travel advice is the same as to Turkey. I can see this happing in a few years. Remeber lebanon was quick successful in keeping ISIS a bay. The first destination would be JFK the capital of the world what else. There are direct fligths form major european cities.
 
mozart
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:53 pm

It has many many elements of a failed state
 
ramzi
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Lebanon is still being punished for TWA flight 847, which happened over 3 decades ago. Meanwhile there are direct flights from countries that provided 9/11 hijackers. Hard to believe that this is a legitimate security concern.

That being said, the Lebanese national carrier's CEO has recently said that even BEY-JFK is not viable without government subsidies, which the government is not interested in giving. The A330s can fly the route, and it has been flown carrying delegations for UN security council meetings.

It seems pretty clear that nobody is willing to fight the battle of getting these flights approved. If ME really wanted the route, I am sure they would be lobbying relentlessly. They can fly to South America or Australia where there is as much likelihood or even more that the route would be profitable, but again ME has clearly expressed they are not even thinking of that.

With connections available via TK, EK, EY, QR, AF, BA, LH, AZ and others, there is no way BEY will turn into a hub, and no way O&D can sustain enough traffic year round to multiple destinations. If this ever happens, it will almost certainly be YUL and JFK, and I bet it would be 3x weekly each. At the moment, the airline is filling their A330s easily on the current network and expanding steadily in the region.
 
evomutant
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 pm

The EU3 all fly there. The idea it is so manifestly dangerous as to make service untenable is patently false.

Which doesn't mean it would be in any way viable, but that is a different argument.
 
raffik
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:38 am

Montreal and New York would most likely be their prime destinations. The A330s they have are more than capable of operating such distances perhaps with the
addition of crew rest facilities. They are on the brink of renewing their wide bodied fleet so if they did intend to launch longer hauls than they currently service, then
this would be a good opportunity to facilitate that.

I don't think America would allow such flights to happen, unfortunately. I personally do not believe it's down to security concerns at Beirut airport.
A bomb was planted on the Russian A321 a few years ago operating from Egypt, yet they are allowed direct services to New York. One of Egyptair's 767 was also
nosedived into the Atlantic. You have had flights from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey etc etc which have had more cause for concern than Beirut which sees
daily (sometimes multiple flights) operating to capital cities across Europe without any issue for decades.

I agree with an earlier post, Lebanon is being punished for TWA 847 and certain elements in the US who do not wish Lebanon to prosper in that regard.

Until this imbalance is addressed, the likes of Royal Jordanian, Air France, Turkish, Emirates etc will happily profit from Lebanese coming to and from Lebanon via their hubs.
The last time I arrived in Beirut was via Istanbul and we had an A330-300 for our 1h 20m flight packed with Americans, Canadians etc. Lucrative!
 
Cointrin330
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:49 am

Wasn't Air Canada at one time proposing to fly YYZ to Beirut a few years ago?
 
directorguy
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:51 am

I am assuming that from the Lebanese side, BEY is most likely to get flights to the US.
Problem with the US is that demand is so fragmented. If it's MEA, then most likely JFK. DL would probably fly from DTW.
I think we are more likely to see Canada and not the USA get nonstop flights to Lebanon.
YUL-BEY I think is the best course- much of the Lebanese population in Canada is concentrated in and around Montreal, and people originating in the US can get a convenient 1 stop option to Lebanon. Any route that that long needs to have sizeable O&D which rules out many city pairs.
 
BA
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:26 am

The market for North America flights to Beirut is larger than the market for flights to Amman, yet Amman has flights.

It is the political/security situation that prevents flights from materializing, not lack of demand.
 
caribb
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:34 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Wasn't Air Canada at one time proposing to fly YYZ to Beirut a few years ago?


YUL to Beirut
 
raffik
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:58 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Wasn't Air Canada at one time proposing to fly YYZ to Beirut a few years ago?


They actually sold tickets in 2003 (I believe) and time tabled a service using 767s but it was withdrawn the day before the first flight.

Air Canada then attempted to launch flights last year in a code share agreement with 787s and again that was thwarted.
 
santi319
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:01 pm

With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.
 
tlvflyguy
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:39 pm

santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.

No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.
 
raffik
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:15 pm

Relations between Lebanon and Israel are worse than most of the other countries mentioned above.
Unfortunately, the reason why these routes are not happening is down to politics and politics alone.
Beirut could have the safest security in place at the airport and flights to the United States or Canada would still be prohibited.
Actually, AC last year asked Lufthansa to oversee extra security procedures at Beirut should flights to Montreal go ahead.

For those unaware of security procedures for flying out of Beirut; Before you even arrive on the airport complex you pass through a roadside check where you may be asked for your passport and a car check, boots are often swiped and tested for explosives.
Once you arrive at the airport proper, to even get to the check in desks, you have to go through a passport check and the contents of your cases are then scanned. Once you pass this, you are through to check in. You then have an immigration check before you enter the duty free zone.
To get to the boarding gates you then need to pass through a FURTHER baggage scan, passport and boarding pass check.
And then you arrive at your boarding gate. You think it's over there? No, you pass through another scanner at the gate.
The checks are absolutely thorough, more checks than I have experienced anywhere across the globe in my travels.
So, saying that Beirut flights are dangerous is untrue, it is not down to safety and most people realise this.
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:58 pm

will never happen . BEY is controlled by hezbollah which is considered a terrorist organization. then you have the issue of the runways .. while landing there is basically some sort of illegal housing in between runways again that area is controlled by terrorist organizations .. yes airplanes do come from europe but those are usually from short destinations max LHR and do not require crew staying over. There are some obvious issues waiting to change for it to happen but we all know no one has the will or power to do it in lebanon . also we can all cry denial and claim BEY is the safest place on earth and also the greatest which is typical lebanese when it's not. so stop blaming others .
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:02 pm

raffik wrote:
Relations between Lebanon and Israel are worse than most of the other countries mentioned above.
Unfortunately, the reason why these routes are not happening is down to politics and politics alone.
Beirut could have the safest security in place at the airport and flights to the United States or Canada would still be prohibited.
Actually, AC last year asked Lufthansa to oversee extra security procedures at Beirut should flights to Montreal go ahead.

For those unaware of security procedures for flying out of Beirut; Before you even arrive on the airport complex you pass through a roadside check where you may be asked for your passport and a car check, boots are often swiped and tested for explosives.
Once you arrive at the airport proper, to even get to the check in desks, you have to go through a passport check and the contents of your cases are then scanned. Once you pass this, you are through to check in. You then have an immigration check before you enter the duty free zone.
To get to the boarding gates you then need to pass through a FURTHER baggage scan, passport and boarding pass check.
And then you arrive at your boarding gate. You think it's over there? No, you pass through another scanner at the gate.
The checks are absolutely thorough, more checks than I have experienced anywhere across the globe in my travels.
So, saying that Beirut flights are dangerous is untrue, it is not down to safety and most people realise this.



all those security procedures are not enough nor practical . to be honest they are just racist and stupid i remember once i was asked why i am going to Istanbul and how come tourism and they only let me go when i showed my foreign passport. i have different nationalities and only use lebanese passport when i enter and exit lebanon . They need proper security staff . Also whenever i enter with my " latin passport " i get pulled aside for extra screening .. while if i enter with canadian no issues at all
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:15 pm

devron wrote:
Okay currently Hezbollah has a stronghold near the airport but Lebanon is not a failed state. The

Central government's inability to exercise sovereignity over its entire territory is a textbook symptom of a failed state.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:32 pm

csavel wrote:
Yeah, I don't see it happening, other than as a prestige route. The only likely place is JFK. Long shot LAX but much further.

Longer shot DTW, yeah I know huge Lebanese and Arab diaspora, but as I've noted before, that diaspora has got to be much larger than you think to generate pax who will sit upfront. The more typical diaspora passenger is a family, mom, dad, 2-3 kids. They are very price sensitive and will eschew a non-stop to save money for five fares. Plus they more or less have to travel in summer season when the kids our out of school. a $200 cheaper one stop is $1,000 cheaper multiplied by five.


Why would LAX-BEY have a chance? It's a long route of low yield VFR passengers. If anything TK could easily handle connecting traffic already. BEY is precisely the kind of city TK likes to connect. They fly to lots of cities that other airlines avoid.
 
ME720
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:36 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
will never happen . BEY is controlled by hezbollah which is considered a terrorist organization. then you have the issue of the runways .. while landing there is basically some sort of illegal housing in between runways again that area is controlled by terrorist organizations .. yes airplanes do come from europe but those are usually from short destinations max LHR and do not require crew staying over. There are some obvious issues waiting to change for it to happen but we all know no one has the will or power to do it in lebanon . also we can all cry denial and claim BEY is the safest place on earth and also the greatest which is typical lebanese when it's not. so stop blaming others .


Not true! BEY is controlled by the Lebanese state.
LH, BA, AF and other airlines’ crews lay over in BEY
US- Leb flight issue is political. The situation can change rapidly or might remain as it is for decades..
Currently the Lebanese economy is in shambles no real business traffic between BEY and N.A. To justify direct links. ME is not really a connecting airline, facilities at BEY are poor. No one will really want to connect at BEY. The max that could work is a seasonal YUL-BEY again as mentioned above there are many options to transit in EU. ME is doing very well point to point EU, ME, Gulf, and Aftica.
 
evomutant
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:38 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
will never happen . BEY is controlled by hezbollah which is considered a terrorist organization. then you have the issue of the runways .. while landing there is basically some sort of illegal housing in between runways again that area is controlled by terrorist organizations .. yes airplanes do come from europe but those are usually from short destinations max LHR and do not require crew staying over. There are some obvious issues waiting to change for it to happen but we all know no one has the will or power to do it in lebanon . also we can all cry denial and claim BEY is the safest place on earth and also the greatest which is typical lebanese when it's not. so stop blaming others .


The BA flight from BEY leaves at 8AM local. The inbound arrives at 9.30PM.

For a while, BA shuttled the aircraft and crew to LCA but that is not the case now. They overnight in BEY.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:44 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
In 2250... maybe.


My only bet would be we'll see a US-BEY flight before BER opens. :duck:

Otherwise, any theoratical flight would start at JFK. For DTW - all I'll say is, while it make sense to certain extent with the diaspora, even TK doesn't bother with it.
 
Armodeen
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:45 pm

tlvflyguy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.

No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.


The reason is political, how else would you interpret it?
 
hisham
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:26 pm

The wishful thinking when it comes to Lebanon is amazing. This topic comes up every few month and I'm now resigned that the denial about the security situation in Lebanon is unshakable. But the idea that Lebanon is being punished for the TWA hijacking is a new one. Keep thinking like that and soon there will only be flights to Damascus and Pyongyang. Sad state of affairs in Lebanon.
 
mozart
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:05 pm

ramzi wrote:
Lebanon is still being punished for TWA flight 847, which happened over 3 decades ago. Meanwhile there are direct flights from countries that provided 9/11 hijackers. Hard to believe that this is a legitimate security concern.


raffik wrote:
I agree with an earlier post, Lebanon is being punished for TWA 847 and certain elements in the US who do not wish Lebanon to prosper in that regard.


BS. Nothing to do with TW 847. The country has a very precarious security situation, that's all. Blaming TW 847 is just a way not to recognize that there is a problem *now*.

tlvflyguy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.


No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.


But it's only about politics. The politics about deeming another country safe or not.

raffik wrote:
For those unaware of security procedures for flying out of Beirut; Before you even arrive on the airport complex you pass through a roadside check where you may be asked for your passport and a car check, boots are often swiped and tested for explosives.
Once you arrive at the airport proper, to even get to the check in desks, you have to go through a passport check and the contents of your cases are then scanned. Once you pass this, you are through to check in. You then have an immigration check before you enter the duty free zone.
To get to the boarding gates you then need to pass through a FURTHER baggage scan, passport and boarding pass check.
And then you arrive at your boarding gate. You think it's over there? No, you pass through another scanner at the gate.
The checks are absolutely thorough, more checks than I have experienced anywhere across the globe in my travels.


The multiple checks have nothing to do with being more safe. They simply have to do with the Lebanese inability to organize anything in an efficient way. The first check: they look at your passport, but what would they do? Send back people without a passport, but unless they check the passport against a database that check is pointless. Then they scan luggage, before you get to the check in counters. Do you really think luggage does not get checked at other airports? They just do it in a more efficient way, they don't make people wait for 30 or more minutes to scan something that other airports do in the background. And in BEY they do it even to people who only have hand luggage - what's the point?.

Then comes the chap who controls passport and boarding pass to give you access to an area where they then do exactly the same thing again, check boarding pass and passport. Again, what's the point? The immigration officers then spend a lot of time re-writing what is on the departure cards (heck, never heard of electronic immigration checks?).

The security screens before reaching the boarding gates in the Western and Eastern pier are the biggest joke of all. They miss half the things they should spot, it's completely uncoordinated, half the staff just lazes around in front of the screen and doesn't give a toss. And "conversations" with the security screeners are like talking to trained monkeys as most of them do not master any foreign language with the exception of a few rudimentary terms - and therefore often just let non-Arab speakers through. They are also lenient with older ladies, kids, etc. Completely pointless.

The BEY security screening setup is the biggest farce there is, and thinking that thinks are safe only because you spend a lot of time going through it is a fallacy. Of all the airports I travel through this is the one I feel the least safe.

raffik wrote:
So, saying that Beirut flights are dangerous is untrue, it is not down to safety and most people realise this.


Using that coloured anarchy staged by armoured clowns as proof for "safe" is really dishonest. Or naive. Or another case of "In Lebanon everything is great" syndrom.

L410Turbolet wrote:
devron wrote:
Okay currently Hezbollah has a stronghold near the airport but Lebanon is not a failed state. The

Central government's inability to exercise sovereignity over its entire territory is a textbook symptom of a failed state.


Exactly! No sovereignty of the central government, the army, the police. Add to that a failed infrastructure (electricity, water, litter removal, etc) and the place is a big stinky mess.

ME720 wrote:
Not true! BEY is controlled by the Lebanese state.


Yeah, right. Proven to be wrong.

ME720 wrote:
LH, BA, AF and other airlines’ crews lay over in BEY


Lufthansa: no
British Airways: yes
Air France: yes, sometimes. There were several periods where they were not laying over. Planes stopped in Athens so that crews did not have to stay in Beirut. Once they even diverted to Damascus - during the war there - because it wasn't safe to land in Beirut (some skirmishes around Downtown/Hamra, and an uncertain security situation around the airport). During long periods of time AF crews were not allowed to leave their hotel (Movenpick).

And you forgot to mention Turkish Airlines. They also sometimes lay over, with the results that their crews get kidnapped.

But, hey, that's all just distraction, BEY and Lebanon are safe because it takes you an hour to go through "security". Not.

hisham wrote:
The wishful thinking when it comes to Lebanon is amazing. This topic comes up every few month and I'm now resigned that the denial about the security situation in Lebanon is unshakable. But the idea that Lebanon is being punished for the TWA hijacking is a new one. Keep thinking like that and soon there will only be flights to Damascus and Pyongyang. Sad state of affairs in Lebanon.


Amen.
 
hinckley
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:32 pm

mozart wrote:
BS. Nothing to do with TW 847. The country has a very precarious security situation, that's all. Blaming TW 847 is just a way not to recognize that there is a problem *now*. . .

Using that coloured anarchy staged by armoured clowns as proof for "safe" is really dishonest. Or naive. Or another case of "In Lebanon everything is great" syndrom.


This is so true. I'm a second generation American of Lebanese ancestry. I grew up listening to the "Lebanon is paradise" fallacy that has become inbred in their modern culture. Then I visited. OMG. No electricity for half the day. Garbage piled everywhere. And the locals comparing the country to California and Tuscany. Delusional.

Now I'm very familiar with the unique social, religious, political and geographical problems of what I'm sure was once a beautiful country (the Paris of the Middle East? Maybe at one time). Thier problems are admittedly overwhelming. But the Lebanese culture is to deal with them by ignoring them. Live for today, for tomorrow we may die. Fatalistic but true for so many people there.
 
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FA9295
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Maybe a less than daily flight to JFK...? Other than that, I don't think anything else could successfully work right now...
 
727200
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:58 pm

OP is a pretty funny guy. Government and airport run by one of world's foremost terror organizations and he wants to fly into BEY from all kinds of cities in the US, plus have ME fly into them. What chapter or splinter group do you work for?
 
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flymco753
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:10 pm

To be completely honest, I didn't know that BEY was ran by a terror organization.
 
olba
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Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:23 pm

mozart wrote:
ramzi wrote:
Lebanon is still being punished for TWA flight 847, which happened over 3 decades ago. Meanwhile there are direct flights from countries that provided 9/11 hijackers. Hard to believe that this is a legitimate security concern.


raffik wrote:
I agree with an earlier post, Lebanon is being punished for TWA 847 and certain elements in the US who do not wish Lebanon to prosper in that regard.


BS. Nothing to do with TW 847. The country has a very precarious security situation, that's all. Blaming TW 847 is just a way not to recognize that there is a problem *now*.

tlvflyguy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.


No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.


But it's only about politics. The politics about deeming another country safe or not.

raffik wrote:
For those unaware of security procedures for flying out of Beirut; Before you even arrive on the airport complex you pass through a roadside check where you may be asked for your passport and a car check, boots are often swiped and tested for explosives.
Once you arrive at the airport proper, to even get to the check in desks, you have to go through a passport check and the contents of your cases are then scanned. Once you pass this, you are through to check in. You then have an immigration check before you enter the duty free zone.
To get to the boarding gates you then need to pass through a FURTHER baggage scan, passport and boarding pass check.
And then you arrive at your boarding gate. You think it's over there? No, you pass through another scanner at the gate.
The checks are absolutely thorough, more checks than I have experienced anywhere across the globe in my travels.


The multiple checks have nothing to do with being more safe. They simply have to do with the Lebanese inability to organize anything in an efficient way. The first check: they look at your passport, but what would they do? Send back people without a passport, but unless they check the passport against a database that check is pointless. Then they scan luggage, before you get to the check in counters. Do you really think luggage does not get checked at other airports? They just do it in a more efficient way, they don't make people wait for 30 or more minutes to scan something that other airports do in the background. And in BEY they do it even to people who only have hand luggage - what's the point?.

Then comes the chap who controls passport and boarding pass to give you access to an area where they then do exactly the same thing again, check boarding pass and passport. Again, what's the point? The immigration officers then spend a lot of time re-writing what is on the departure cards (heck, never heard of electronic immigration checks?).

The security screens before reaching the boarding gates in the Western and Eastern pier are the biggest joke of all. They miss half the things they should spot, it's completely uncoordinated, half the staff just lazes around in front of the screen and doesn't give a toss. And "conversations" with the security screeners are like talking to trained monkeys as most of them do not master any foreign language with the exception of a few rudimentary terms - and therefore often just let non-Arab speakers through. They are also lenient with older ladies, kids, etc. Completely pointless.

The BEY security screening setup is the biggest farce there is, and thinking that thinks are safe only because you spend a lot of time going through it is a fallacy. Of all the airports I travel through this is the one I feel the least safe.

raffik wrote:
So, saying that Beirut flights are dangerous is untrue, it is not down to safety and most people realise this.


Using that coloured anarchy staged by armoured clowns as proof for "safe" is really dishonest. Or naive. Or another case of "In Lebanon everything is great" syndrom.

L410Turbolet wrote:
devron wrote:
Okay currently Hezbollah has a stronghold near the airport but Lebanon is not a failed state. The

Central government's inability to exercise sovereignity over its entire territory is a textbook symptom of a failed state.


Exactly! No sovereignty of the central government, the army, the police. Add to that a failed infrastructure (electricity, water, litter removal, etc) and the place is a big stinky mess.

ME720 wrote:
Not true! BEY is controlled by the Lebanese state.


Yeah, right. Proven to be wrong.

ME720 wrote:
LH, BA, AF and other airlines’ crews lay over in BEY


Lufthansa: no
British Airways: yes
Air France: yes, sometimes. There were several periods where they were not laying over. Planes stopped in Athens so that crews did not have to stay in Beirut. Once they even diverted to Damascus - during the war there - because it wasn't safe to land in Beirut (some skirmishes around Downtown/Hamra, and an uncertain security situation around the airport). During long periods of time AF crews were not allowed to leave their hotel (Movenpick).

And you forgot to mention Turkish Airlines. They also sometimes lay over, with the results that their crews get kidnapped.

But, hey, that's all just distraction, BEY and Lebanon are safe because it takes you an hour to go through "security". Not.

hisham wrote:
The wishful thinking when it comes to Lebanon is amazing. This topic comes up every few month and I'm now resigned that the denial about the security situation in Lebanon is unshakable. But the idea that Lebanon is being punished for the TWA hijacking is a new one. Keep thinking like that and soon there will only be flights to Damascus and Pyongyang. Sad state of affairs in Lebanon.


Amen.




to be honest, last few times i go to BEY, i've seen them stop people because of passport problems before even going into the immigration area. The security at the beginning has also made few people take out their laptops are searched people even further. I think the security checks have been efficient especially this year.
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:26 pm

Flymco753, don’t worry, most people either don’t know or refuse to know the reality of security in Lebanon. They think things in post-war Lebanon are similar to pre-war Lebanon and that the war was a troubled period that ended in 1990.
 
hinckley
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:27 pm

hisham wrote:
Flymco753, don’t worry, most people either don’t know or refuse to know the reality of security in Lebanon. They think things in post-war Lebanon are similar to pre-war Lebanon and that the war was a troubled period that ended in 1990.


hisham, many of us understand the reality of security in Lebanon, and the reality of Lebanon itself.

The Lebanese civil war was not "a troubled period" 150,000 dead. A quarter of the population displaced. A country ravaged by foreign armies that became occupying forces. And now, 25% of Lebanon's population are refugees from neighboring civil wars. It's no wonder the country is in such a tragic predicament, but repeating the Lebanese "all is well" mantra does make it so.
Last edited by hinckley on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hinckley
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:29 pm

dup
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:43 pm

Feel free not to lecture me about the use of “troubled”. I escaped death many times and many of my friends died in that civil war.

Also, I said ‘most people’ don’t understand the security situation in Lebanon. Apparently, you do. I wasn’t talking about you.
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:17 pm

omg thank you !!

mozart wrote:
ramzi wrote:
Lebanon is still being punished for TWA flight 847, which happened over 3 decades ago. Meanwhile there are direct flights from countries that provided 9/11 hijackers. Hard to believe that this is a legitimate security concern.


raffik wrote:
I agree with an earlier post, Lebanon is being punished for TWA 847 and certain elements in the US who do not wish Lebanon to prosper in that regard.


BS. Nothing to do with TW 847. The country has a very precarious security situation, that's all. Blaming TW 847 is just a way not to recognize that there is a problem *now*.

tlvflyguy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.


No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.


But it's only about politics. The politics about deeming another country safe or not.

raffik wrote:
For those unaware of security procedures for flying out of Beirut; Before you even arrive on the airport complex you pass through a roadside check where you may be asked for your passport and a car check, boots are often swiped and tested for explosives.
Once you arrive at the airport proper, to even get to the check in desks, you have to go through a passport check and the contents of your cases are then scanned. Once you pass this, you are through to check in. You then have an immigration check before you enter the duty free zone.
To get to the boarding gates you then need to pass through a FURTHER baggage scan, passport and boarding pass check.
And then you arrive at your boarding gate. You think it's over there? No, you pass through another scanner at the gate.
The checks are absolutely thorough, more checks than I have experienced anywhere across the globe in my travels.


The multiple checks have nothing to do with being more safe. They simply have to do with the Lebanese inability to organize anything in an efficient way. The first check: they look at your passport, but what would they do? Send back people without a passport, but unless they check the passport against a database that check is pointless. Then they scan luggage, before you get to the check in counters. Do you really think luggage does not get checked at other airports? They just do it in a more efficient way, they don't make people wait for 30 or more minutes to scan something that other airports do in the background. And in BEY they do it even to people who only have hand luggage - what's the point?.

Then comes the chap who controls passport and boarding pass to give you access to an area where they then do exactly the same thing again, check boarding pass and passport. Again, what's the point? The immigration officers then spend a lot of time re-writing what is on the departure cards (heck, never heard of electronic immigration checks?).

The security screens before reaching the boarding gates in the Western and Eastern pier are the biggest joke of all. They miss half the things they should spot, it's completely uncoordinated, half the staff just lazes around in front of the screen and doesn't give a toss. And "conversations" with the security screeners are like talking to trained monkeys as most of them do not master any foreign language with the exception of a few rudimentary terms - and therefore often just let non-Arab speakers through. They are also lenient with older ladies, kids, etc. Completely pointless.

The BEY security screening setup is the biggest farce there is, and thinking that thinks are safe only because you spend a lot of time going through it is a fallacy. Of all the airports I travel through this is the one I feel the least safe.

raffik wrote:
So, saying that Beirut flights are dangerous is untrue, it is not down to safety and most people realise this.


Using that coloured anarchy staged by armoured clowns as proof for "safe" is really dishonest. Or naive. Or another case of "In Lebanon everything is great" syndrom.

L410Turbolet wrote:
devron wrote:
Okay currently Hezbollah has a stronghold near the airport but Lebanon is not a failed state. The

Central government's inability to exercise sovereignity over its entire territory is a textbook symptom of a failed state.


Exactly! No sovereignty of the central government, the army, the police. Add to that a failed infrastructure (electricity, water, litter removal, etc) and the place is a big stinky mess.

ME720 wrote:
Not true! BEY is controlled by the Lebanese state.


Yeah, right. Proven to be wrong.

ME720 wrote:
LH, BA, AF and other airlines’ crews lay over in BEY


Lufthansa: no
British Airways: yes
Air France: yes, sometimes. There were several periods where they were not laying over. Planes stopped in Athens so that crews did not have to stay in Beirut. Once they even diverted to Damascus - during the war there - because it wasn't safe to land in Beirut (some skirmishes around Downtown/Hamra, and an uncertain security situation around the airport). During long periods of time AF crews were not allowed to leave their hotel (Movenpick).

And you forgot to mention Turkish Airlines. They also sometimes lay over, with the results that their crews get kidnapped.

But, hey, that's all just distraction, BEY and Lebanon are safe because it takes you an hour to go through "security". Not.

hisham wrote:
The wishful thinking when it comes to Lebanon is amazing. This topic comes up every few month and I'm now resigned that the denial about the security situation in Lebanon is unshakable. But the idea that Lebanon is being punished for the TWA hijacking is a new one. Keep thinking like that and soon there will only be flights to Damascus and Pyongyang. Sad state of affairs in Lebanon.


Amen.
 
hinckley
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:20 pm

hisham wrote:
Feel free not to lecture me about the use of “troubled”. I escaped death many times and many of my friends died in that civil war.

hisham, I know no one from that period that does not have tragic stories of loss. I'm incredibley sympathetic to all of them. I'm incredibly sympathetic to the crazy level of deep-seeded problems that exist in Lebanon today. I promise that. My criticism is the gloss-over of those problems.

I want to be careful here . . . we also have huge problems in America. And we're not be doing a great job fixing any of them. But at least we're screaming bloody murder about their existance.
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:29 pm

I just published a novel about Lebanon, and the denial people have about it. There’s some aviation too!
https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/josephs- ... 1538089200

It’s also on amazon.com
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:33 pm

Since many European carriers fly to BEY, why can't AC/RV fly YUL-BEY? With connections throughout North America from YUL, they should have no problem filling a 788/767, there's a significant Lebanese diaspora in the US, Canada and even Mexico.


tlvflyguy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
With Trump in office? Never. And remember the US does what Israel says so probably will not happen for quite a while.

No need to bring politics into this, regardless of if or how true that statement is.
JFK has non-stop flights to AUH, DOH, DXB, KWI, JED and RUH so BEY should not be any different from a "US-Israel-Arab World" political standpoint.
So let's drop it.


Anyone knows why KU' KWI-JFK flight stops at SNN while the return flight doesn't? The 77W has the legs to fly the westbound flight non-stop.
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:52 pm

727200 wrote:
OP is a pretty funny guy. Government and airport run by one of world's foremost terror organizations and he wants to fly into BEY from all kinds of cities in the US, plus have ME fly into them. What chapter or splinter group do you work for?



Document your claim please!
I have never seen anyone but Lebanese security at BEY.
hezbollah is in the government .. they are in parliament..
LH crews lay over in BEY .. April - OCT double daily
NOV- March once daily and the inbound flights lands at BEY 17:30 and departs at 04:30 crew is in Beirut at a hotel.
As I said before it is purely political.. decision can be reversed with the stroke of a pen when the time is right politically speaking... ISIS trained and passed through turkey on their way to Syria last 7 years .. doesn’t seem to affect flights to the US from Turkey..
Saudi Arabia and Qatar financed ISIS in Syria and Iraq again no problem there..
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:55 pm

AF and BA crew layover in BEY except for a few weeks in 2008.. TK as well and others ..
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:00 pm

ME720, you are in denial. Good luck!
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:01 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Anyone knows why KU' KWI-JFK flight stops at SNN while the return flight doesn't? The 77W has the legs to fly the westbound flight non-stop.


Security. Something to do with TSA/DHS requirements and KWI not fulfilling it. Apparently security at KWI is or was rather lax.

As a result, they stop in SNN for secondary screening.
 
mozart
Posts: 2181
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

Re: If Beirut-US flights return, which cities could gain service?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:03 pm

Slightly off-topic, but a very telling anecdote about how people in LEB live in La-La-Land.

In the summer of 2014 I was sitting at a lunch with family and friends at someone's nice house in the mountains North of Beirut. Many expats/diaspora, and all were raving how fantastic the country was, how shitty their lives were in New York, Paris, Geneva, and that they'd wish their kids would grow up in Lebanon, etc. Several told me that Lebanon was still the "Switzerland of the ME" (I am half Swiss) and were surprised when I responded that Lebanon is the anti-thesis of Switzerland (dirty, dysfunctional, zero civic sense of the population, corrupt, failed state, failed infrastructure). Still, everybody was raving about the place.

At that same time I received frequent news flashes on my phone about Islamic State guerilla forces that jointly with Al Qaeda fighters had overran a Lebanese village in the Bekaa, Arzal, killed 20 soldiers, and prompted the population to flee. That was about 60 kilometers "great circle" from where we were. Nobody cared, but went on about how fantastic this place is.

The ability of the Lebanese to turn a blind eye on any negative aspects about their country is unparalleled. You drive with them through the country side and they get all excited "look how beautiful this is", and when you say "but there are heaps of rubbish all along the road" - "Ah, didn't even see that...". Or somebody says "We'll see a friend, he lives in a great place, nice house". You get there, and realize that the "nice house" is in fact merely the least rotten building, standing in the middle of what in Europe or North America would be a seedy part of town or even a slum. They just don't see it.

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