Samrnpage
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Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 am

Has Airbus ever tried to win Southwest to convert with a ridiculous deal? In fact the same with Ryanair? and vise versa with Easyjet and spirit?
 
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Erebus
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:01 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Has Airbus ever tried to win Southwest to convert with a ridiculous deal? In fact the same with Ryanair? and vise versa with Easyjet and spirit?


Southwest did run a competition between the neo and the MAX back when Boeing was still defining it. They went with MAX in the end obviously. I heard that Boeing had to be quite aggressive on the pricing to fend off Airbus here.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 am

I can't imagine WN has talks with Airbus for any reason other than to squeeze Boeing for a few bucks on an order. Their entire operation has run on the 737 for 30+ years and given the continuity (parts, training, etc) between series and the size of their fleet, they don't have a particularly pressing reason to make a switch. Let's not forget how quickly "we're keeping the 717s...oh, hi, Delta!" happened.
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WN732
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:06 am

gunsontheroof wrote:
I can't imagine WN has talks with Airbus for any reason other than to squeeze Boeing for a few bucks on an order. Their entire operation has run on the 737 for 30+ years and given the continuity (parts, training, etc) between series and the size of their fleet, they don't have a particularly pressing reason to make a switch. Let's not forget how quickly "we're keeping the 717s...oh, hi, Delta!" happened.


Shoot make that almost 50 years.
 
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william
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:29 am

There are plenty of SWA liveried A320 models left behind over the years by the Airbus sales team in a closet somewhere.
 
727200
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:54 am

So that we nip this early: Earth to Airbus fan boys. Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.

Now, lets close this thread.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:55 am

Here are some of the articles of interest where Southwest and Airbus were considered in the same sentence.

Southwest overture stirs Airbus order hopes

Southwest warns on switch to Airbus

Commonality, performance tipped Southwest to 737 Max
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:38 am

Erebus wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Has Airbus ever tried to win Southwest to convert with a ridiculous deal? In fact the same with Ryanair? and vise versa with Easyjet and spirit?


Southwest did run a competition between the neo and the MAX back when Boeing was still defining it. They went with MAX in the end obviously. I heard that Boeing had to be quite aggressive on the pricing to fend off Airbus here.

The interesting element here is that Boeing would have to consider the Airbus threat to be legitimate in order for it to affect pricing. It's more likely that Boeing gives breaks for WN's bulk purchasing. So, if there's no genuine threat from Airbus, then I'm sure the WN folks enjoys some nice hospitality from the Airbus sales team. ;)
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:13 am

727200 wrote:
So that we nip this early: Earth to Airbus fan boys. Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.

Now, lets close this thread.


Chill, dude. There was no evidence of fan-boyism until you came. The OP posed an honest question and it is being discussed in a civil manner. No need to close the thread.

On topic: not that I am an industry insider but I would side with aerolimani's last answer. It takes more than an earthquake to change anything in that three-side relationship. Boeing knows how loyal WN is to them but still can't overprice, WN's procurement team is not dumb. And Airbus won't lose anything -especially not much money - if they drop by at WN's headquarters and offer their planes.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 am

BartSimpson wrote:
727200 wrote:
So that we nip this early: Earth to Airbus fan boys. Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.

Now, lets close this thread.


Chill, dude. There was no evidence of fan-boyism until you came. The OP posed an honest question and it is being discussed in a civil manner. No need to close the thread.

Correct. Furthermore, this thread is not only about Southwest. It’s also about Ryanair, easyjet etc.

Silkair comes to my mind...
 
evomutant
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:08 am

727200 wrote:
So that we nip this early: Earth to Airbus fan boys. Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.

Now, lets close this thread.


Yeah. The only REMOTELY fanboy comment came from you.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:23 am

One of my favorite Herb stories is one time he was in a meeting with Boeing and during the meeting he lit a cigarette with an Airbus lighter. Now its another thing if those Airbus orders were ever close to happening, my guess is no.

Would anyone know of anything similar to this thread topic but about Southwest and MDD?
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blueflyer
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:30 am

Southwest will buy Boeing 737s for as long as Boeing makes them. Boeing will make 737s for as long as it can convince the FAA current models have enough commonality with a 50-year old design to be on the same type certificate. And the FAA will keep going along because, well, why stop after 50 years? 20 years from now, that type certificate will include the 737-4500 powered by photon engines.

Every five years or so, Airbus will respond to a RFP from Southwest with just enough motivation to keep Boeing's profit margin on the next order from inflating too much.
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:01 am

WN732 wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
I can't imagine WN has talks with Airbus for any reason other than to squeeze Boeing for a few bucks on an order. Their entire operation has run on the 737 for 30+ years and given the continuity (parts, training, etc) between series and the size of their fleet, they don't have a particularly pressing reason to make a switch. Let's not forget how quickly "we're keeping the 717s...oh, hi, Delta!" happened.


Shoot make that almost 50 years.
Southwest did own 6 Boeing 727s years ago!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:03 am

South West will not buy Airbus frames until they will. It is really stupid to talk about never ever. It is not likely, but hardly impossible.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:17 am

Easyjets business model here in the UK was based on the 737. Airbus covered the costs of both changing from Boeing to Airbus and the dual costs of running a joint 737 / Airbus model during the transition period as part of their deal.
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par13del
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:42 am

APYu wrote:
Easyjets business model here in the UK was based on the 737. Airbus covered the costs of both changing from Boeing to Airbus and the dual costs of running a joint 737 / Airbus model during the transition period as part of their deal.

Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.
Boeing has maintained some cockpit commonality in the NG series to please WN.
If WN were to announce a conversion to Airbus what would be a reasonable time frame to get that done, how much of Airbus production would have to be allocated to get that done before the A320 series was replaced?
Just due to the number of a/c I don't believe an economic case can be made for a switch, neither OEM sells a "DOG' against each other in any segment, so I don't believe the quality or performance of the a/c would be enough for a switch. Once that is eliminated it becomes purely a personal decision, in which case......
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:57 am

par13del wrote:
Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.

Erm, yes they did. They added the extra pair of overwing exits to the A319 to meet Easyjets capacity requirements.
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:59 am

par13del wrote:
APYu wrote:
Easyjets business model here in the UK was based on the 737. Airbus covered the costs of both changing from Boeing to Airbus and the dual costs of running a joint 737 / Airbus model during the transition period as part of their deal.

Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.
Boeing has maintained some cockpit commonality in the NG series to please WN.
If WN were to announce a conversion to Airbus what would be a reasonable time frame to get that done, how much of Airbus production would have to be allocated to get that done before the A320 series was replaced?
Just due to the number of a/c I don't believe an economic case can be made for a switch, neither OEM sells a "DOG' against each other in any segment, so I don't believe the quality or performance of the a/c would be enough for a switch. Once that is eliminated it becomes purely a personal decision, in which case......


Airbus made a customizing for EasyJet, they changed the A319 from one to two over wing exits for EasyJet frames.

If Southwest would ever want to buy Airbus frames, Airbus would solve the delivery problem. There are about 750 frames at Southwest. Change over in 15 years would take 50 frames a year. Change over in 10 years would take 75 frames a year. Not insurmountable.

I agree it is very unlikely, but impossible?
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:06 pm

APYu wrote:
par13del wrote:
Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.

Erm, yes they did. They added the extra pair of overwing exits to the A319 to meet Easyjets capacity requirements.

Exit doors are a certification issue for max capacity, are you saying that Airbus did a second exit certification just for Easyjet or they just included the doors they need to carry the max number of pax for which the a/c was certified?

The changes Boeing implemented in the cockpit to ensure commonality with earlier models went to all operators of the a/c, not just those built for WN.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:12 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I agree it is very unlikely, but impossible?

Never said it was impossible, I said I do not believe it would be economically feasible based on the fleet size.
An example, let's take a price of $50 million per frame (ignore list price), if WN were to purchase 600 frames, would the price WN pay be closer to 50 or further away from 50?
WN would get a discount for such a large purchase, and if the time frame is reasonable, a large percentage of Airbus production would be tied up providing those discounted frames, what percentage do you think Airbus would like especially as this will also mean a lower profit margin?
Note I did not say they will loose money, just not make as much profit.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:14 pm

727200 wrote:
So that we nip this early: Earth to Airbus fan boys. Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.

Now, lets close this thread.

i agree samething i said in jetblue thread, frontier, spirit, alegiant and other threads airlines that won't go boeing
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
One of my favorite Herb stories is one time he was in a meeting with Boeing and during the meeting he lit a cigarette with an Airbus lighter. Now its another thing if those Airbus orders were ever close to happening, my guess is no.

Would anyone know of anything similar to this thread topic but about Southwest and MDD?


I have heard variations of this story with Herb lighting his cigarette with a MDD lighter around the time WN was deciding between the MD-80 and the 737-300.
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Samrnpage
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:30 pm

This thread was never a fanboy type discussion, its a shame someone brought that into this.

It would be really interesting to see if Airbus or Boeing does try every year to get an airline to switch from one to the other. Imagine the types of deals they would get. Airbus would have to practically give A320s away to WN and pay for training.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:37 pm

The fleet size and WN's business model where they do all they can to maintain one fleet type is the major problem with a switch from one OEM to another.
WN spent money to eliminate the 717 fleet, they then adjusted their network to accommodate the removal of a 737 sub-fleet that the FAA was using to mandate an additional type rating to fly all versions of the 737, unless they suddenly came up with a new business model, I can't see them taking 15 or even 10 years to complete a switch over from one OEM to another.
My bet would be that when the 737 successor is finally approved, they will be pushing to have some minimal type of training to switch between types.
Last edited by par13del on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
APYu
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:38 pm

par13del wrote:
APYu wrote:
par13del wrote:
Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.

Erm, yes they did. They added the extra pair of overwing exits to the A319 to meet Easyjets capacity requirements.

Exit doors are a certification issue for max capacity, are you saying that Airbus did a second exit certification just for Easyjet or they just included the doors they need to carry the max number of pax for which the a/c was certified?


The easyjet modifications which increased the types passenger capacity are detailed in the latest aircraft certifications,
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par13del
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:50 pm

Wiki may not be the best but this link indicates that the number of doors can be increased to 4 for high density (Easyjet) others can select two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A319
 
Strato2
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:51 pm

That Southwest even asks Airbus is a win for Airbus. By responding with a cheap price they'll force Boeing to offer dirt cheap planes with low margins to keep Southwest business.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:04 pm

I'm sure single type operators keep a line open with the other major producer if for no other reason than to keep their supplier honest.

As pointed out the cost of the plane is just one small part of the whole cost of an airline. There's all the equipment, training, maintenance, etc. that all add up.

For Southwest they have a lot of investment in one model. So for Airbus to overcome this would require a huge investment from Airbus. An investment at the same time they've already got a huge backlog. The obvious timing for Airbus will be when the 737 is finally retired by Boeing and Southwest will be forced to choose a successor. But even then they'll be up against literally decades of operational staff relationships between Boeing and Southwest. Those sorts of softer benefits make things easier for both parties. And Airbus would be starting that from scratch while Boeing can just point to their team.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:23 pm

Southwest is organized very much around the 737, but they will not fly it for ever.

The 737-7 is e.g. about 6t heavier than the A220-300. How much fuel is that per year, for say 300 aircraft? The A220-300 has lower sfc, higher BPR quieter engines than a 737 could fit.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-01-02/southwest-moves-up-40-max-737-8-orders-delays-23-max-7-planes

I wonder when the first A220 will roll off the assembly line in Mobile. It will probably be for Delta.

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Last edited by keesje on Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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seahawk
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Every airline switches the supplier quickly, if the purchase of the new type is more economical than staying with your old supplier in the net effect. Every airline that does not act like this, is badly run.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:31 pm

par13del wrote:
APYu wrote:
par13del wrote:
Airbus picked up the cost, they did not make any custom designs to their a/c for Easyjet.

Erm, yes they did. They added the extra pair of overwing exits to the A319 to meet Easyjets capacity requirements.

Exit doors are a certification issue for max capacity, are you saying that Airbus did a second exit certification just for Easyjet or they just included the doors they need to carry the max number of pax for which the a/c was certified?

The changes Boeing implemented in the cockpit to ensure commonality with earlier models went to all operators of the a/c, not just those built for WN.


Yes, Airbus did the exit door modification for EasyJet to increase passenger numbers. After it was done, it was of course than available for other customers.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:58 pm

Wasnt there tslks about 10 yeara ago about wn looking the ejets? I distinctly remeber seeing a pic of ine here that someone drew or embraer made up. It was long ago i just cant remeber all the details
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:49 pm

mwearley wrote:
WN732 wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
I can't imagine WN has talks with Airbus for any reason other than to squeeze Boeing for a few bucks on an order. Their entire operation has run on the 737 for 30+ years and given the continuity (parts, training, etc) between series and the size of their fleet, they don't have a particularly pressing reason to make a switch. Let's not forget how quickly "we're keeping the 717s...oh, hi, Delta!" happened.


Shoot make that almost 50 years.
Southwest did own 6 Boeing 727s years ago!


That was in the late 1970s/early 1980s when WN leased a few 727s from Braniff, as I recall. That was when WN's fleet was substantially smaller then it is today.
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:14 pm

727200 wrote:
Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.


If that is indeed true then all any competitor needs to do is setup on the WN network with a more efficient operation knowing the competition is unable to change their stripes.
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:18 pm

zeke wrote:
727200 wrote:
Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.


If that is indeed true then all any competitor needs to do is setup on the WN network with a more efficient operation knowing the competition is unable to change their stripes.


Many have tried.........Many have tried.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:23 pm

I would imagine that the best opportunity Airbus had to get a Southwest order was the NEO. A sizable jump by both manufacturers where the efficiency gained was worth looking at. The next opportunity will be when the 797 and it's Airbus counterpart come to fruition. That's what we can probably assume. There's also the reality that when Gary Kelly took over he moved from the original policy of secondary airports to primary ones. So, maybe his replacement argues the case for a different fleet strategy.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:50 pm

I could see Southwest possibly ordering the A220 to become better competitive with airlines such as Spirit, Allegiant, and eventually Moxy if/when that launches due to better costs of the A220 program rather than the 737-7. They certainly have the free cash and the scale to run multiple fleet types. I know its a chance in hell but the A220 would be a good way to compete against new rivals in the markets that was historically all Southwest's game.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:33 pm

First A220 US deliveries scheduled for summer 2020 apparently. About 500 nm from SW Texas HQ.

http://www.fox10tv.com/story/38679537/stimpson-airbus-will-probably-start-construction-on-new-assembly-line-this-fall

BBD pitched it in 2015, apparently this was the main reason Boeing stretched the 737-7. SW bit, but apparently is switching to 737-8 deliveries. Pushing out deliveries for the slow selling -7 to 2023.

SW operates 500 737-700. The A220-300 is slightly bigger & much lighter.
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ScottB
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:10 pm

par13del wrote:
The fleet size and WN's business model where they do all they can to maintain one fleet type is the major problem with a switch from one OEM to another.
WN spent money to eliminate the 717 fleet, they then adjusted their network to accommodate the removal of a 737 sub-fleet that the FAA was using to mandate an additional type rating to fly all versions of the 737


The 717s went away because the direct operating cost of the 717 was nearly identical to the 73G -- so you get an extra 20 seats virtually for free with the 73G. And they had a willing taker for the 717s, which has used them to replace far less efficient regional aircraft in its own network.

The 737 Classics went away quickly because the company had already decided to retire them early (by mid-2018) and it wasn't worth the expense of dealing with the requirement of an additional type in order to eke out another year out of the planes. They had enough aircraft coming in with better fuel efficiency to replace the departing Classics, apart from the 2017-2018 slow winter season when they would have reduced capacity in any event.

mjoelnir wrote:
If Southwest would ever want to buy Airbus frames, Airbus would solve the delivery problem. There are about 750 frames at Southwest. Change over in 15 years would take 50 frames a year. Change over in 10 years would take 75 frames a year. Not insurmountable.


As large as the WN fleet is, operating a large enough fleet of Airbus alongside the 737 really wouldn't add much cost. The lack of assigned seats would make a swap of A220 for 73G or 737-7 a non-issue (as long as the seat counts were identical).
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:15 pm

zeke wrote:
727200 wrote:
Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.


If that is indeed true then all any competitor needs to do is setup on the WN network with a more efficient operation knowing the competition is unable to change their stripes.


You're ignoring labor productivity, economies of scale, and the value of the Southwest brand. That's like pilots ignoring elevation, wind speed, and temperature at take off.
 
hivue
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
zeke wrote:
727200 wrote:
Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.


If that is indeed true then all any competitor needs to do is setup on the WN network with a more efficient operation knowing the competition is unable to change their stripes.


You're ignoring labor productivity, economies of scale, and the value of the Southwest brand. That's like pilots ignoring elevation, wind speed, and temperature at take off.


I would imagine these days that labor productivity, economies of scale, and the value of the Southwest brand are part of WN's business model.

And you may not want to imply that zeke ignores field elevation, wind and temp. :)
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flyabr
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:52 pm

keesje wrote:
First A220 US deliveries scheduled for summer 2020 apparently. About 500 nm from SW Texas HQ.

http://www.fox10tv.com/story/38679537/stimpson-airbus-will-probably-start-construction-on-new-assembly-line-this-fall

BBD pitched it in 2015, apparently this was the main reason Boeing stretched the 737-7. SW bit, but apparently is switching to 737-8 deliveries. Pushing out deliveries for the slow selling -7 to 2023.

SW operates 500 737-700. The A220-300 is slightly bigger & much lighter.


Like you allude to, one could only imagine that at some point, as the 737 continues to increase in size, WN will consider either the E-jets or A220.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:00 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
This thread was never a fanboy type discussion, its a shame someone brought that into this.

It would be really interesting to see if Airbus or Boeing does try every year to get an airline to switch from one to the other. Imagine the types of deals they would get. Airbus would have to practically give A320s away to WN and pay for training.


Not necessarily. Boeing could also inadvertently provoke a switch by not offering a competitive bid, or a sufficiently good product. Boeing in particular has had problems with complacency, losing almost guaranteed 737 sales to EasyJet (pricing), British Airways (product not competitive), United Airlines (product not competitive) and JetBlue (pricing), just to mention a few more notable examples.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 pm

There's also Frontier, another 737 operator who was more than willing to stay Boeing but they played hardball on price, reportedly. Bowing also reportedly told Frontier what they needed, not the other way around. Airbus actually didn't really take Frontier seriously, according to some reports, and didn't make significant efforts to court them as a customer. Even then, their sales pitch and price was better than Boeing's.
 
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Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:07 pm

I would bet a hundy that airbus and southwest talk regularly. Airbus would be foolish not to continuously give it a try (even if the deck is stacked against them) and southwest foolish not to listen to them, if for nothing else but to keep Boeing honest. At the end of the day, however, a switch or split is a looooooonnnnnnnggggggggg shot! Never say never though. Stranger things have happened . . .
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
zeke wrote:
727200 wrote:
Southwest business model is predicated on the 737. It will continue to be modeled on the 737. In the future it will be modeled on the 737/797.


If that is indeed true then all any competitor needs to do is setup on the WN network with a more efficient operation knowing the competition is unable to change their stripes.


You're ignoring labor productivity, economies of scale, and the value of the Southwest brand. That's like pilots ignoring elevation, wind speed, and temperature at take off.

Not much cost?

You really never worked for an airline nor introduced a new fleet type.

It’s a huge cost, training, spare parts, simulators.

It’s a huge cost, I was involved in the introduction of the Airbus fleet at US, it’s a huge undertaking and cost.
 
LG777
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:48 am

Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:

Not much cost?

You really never worked for an airline nor introduced a new fleet type.

It’s a huge cost, training, spare parts, simulators.

It’s a huge cost, I was involved in the introduction of the Airbus fleet at US, it’s a huge undertaking and cost.


Indeed cost are huge but we are not looking at a small low cost company trying to maintain its cost low. It's a hundreds aircraft feels Gorilla now.
Economies of scale are important in the initial growth but eventually tend to flatten up as tools and equipment are used up to their optimum level.
A simulator has only finite number of time available to pilots. That you have to have to invest in two 737 simulators or one A320 and a 737 one don't change much.
Same for spare parts. When you reach the fleet level of Southwest you obviously have a large network and for efficiency you will not centralise all your parts in one warehouse somewhere in Dallas. You will have multiple warehouses around the country.
Training may be different but only at the introduction of the new fleet time.
Money has to be spent but there is a size level where concentrating on on aircraft type don't change much as long as types fleets are sufficient large to be independent.
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 3882
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:18 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
In fact the same with Ryanair?


In fact they have. Remember LaudaMotion? It's owned by Ryanair, but flying an all-Airbus fleet. LaudaMotion flights are bookable through Ryanair and they basically got the same service level. You could say Ryanair already has a mixed fleet, only the Boeing aircraft are branded as Ryanair and the Airbus aircraft are branded as LaudaMotion. It's only a matter of time before the LaudaMotion brand will be integrated into Ryanair.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airbus and Southwest

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:23 pm

LG777 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:

Not much cost?

You really never worked for an airline nor introduced a new fleet type.

It’s a huge cost, training, spare parts, simulators.

It’s a huge cost, I was involved in the introduction of the Airbus fleet at US, it’s a huge undertaking and cost.


Indeed cost are huge but we are not looking at a small low cost company trying to maintain its cost low. It's a hundreds aircraft feels Gorilla now.
Economies of scale are important in the initial growth but eventually tend to flatten up as tools and equipment are used up to their optimum level.
A simulator has only finite number of time available to pilots. That you have to have to invest in two 737 simulators or one A320 and a 737 one don't change much.
Same for spare parts. When you reach the fleet level of Southwest you obviously have a large network and for efficiency you will not centralise all your parts in one warehouse somewhere in Dallas. You will have multiple warehouses around the country.
Training may be different but only at the introduction of the new fleet time.
Money has to be spent but there is a size level where concentrating on on aircraft type don't change much as long as types fleets are sufficient large to be independent.

Another that doesn’t grasp it.

ALL the pilots would have to be trained, one simulator won’t accomplish that.

Every Mechanic must be trained.

And no airline has parts warehouses all over the US.

They normally have one huge distribution center where their heavy maintenance bases are and parts are shipped from there.

All major staffed maintenance stations have their own stockrooms for parts, not a warehouse

And even non- maintenance stations have a small allocation of parts.

I specialized in stores after I left the line.

You have no idea of what you talk about.

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