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BritTraveller
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 pm

Berlin is poorer than West German cities... but it isn't a poverty stricken city. It could at least be served by an AA 767 to PHL and a UA 767 to ORD or IAD. If AA can get BUD and PRG to work, TXL will also work.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:43 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But even with BER running, the problems will only be reduced by a very small bit.

1. BER will be running at or over design capacity when it opens
2. currently planed extensions are aiming at low cost carriers
3. it will have a night curfew
4. with 2 runways it will be badly slot limited during peak times and most slots will be owned by airlines with no intention for long haul there

Imho it has potential for O&D routes mostly. So a few more destinations in North America (major Hubs of larger airlines) and maybe a few routes to China.


All true, but many major long haul gateways (LHR, notably) have 2 runways, are curfew restricted, and bulge at the seams!
These things suggest to me that short haul/LCC ops are more profitable out of the Berlin, rather than TATL/long haul, given that other mature hubs are "nearby".


But that ignores history. Berlin was not suitable as a hub for 50 years due to political realities and over 70 years due to the infrastructure. And even in the future the infrastructure would not even allow to built a serious long haul operation there. A long haul network hub is (and will not be operationally possible) so obviously other airlines fill the market. Airberlin did try and that was one of the reasons for their demise, as connection times and connection quality was bad and many connection were missed creating huge extra costs for re-booking passengers.And if you look at it,Berlin is well connected with 1-stop connections all around the globe, but that makes it hard to gain traction with a direct connection, especially when you depend on OD feed.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:51 pm

seahawk wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But even with BER running, the problems will only be reduced by a very small bit.

1. BER will be running at or over design capacity when it opens
2. currently planed extensions are aiming at low cost carriers
3. it will have a night curfew
4. with 2 runways it will be badly slot limited during peak times and most slots will be owned by airlines with no intention for long haul there

Imho it has potential for O&D routes mostly. So a few more destinations in North America (major Hubs of larger airlines) and maybe a few routes to China.


All true, but many major long haul gateways (LHR, notably) have 2 runways, are curfew restricted, and bulge at the seams!
These things suggest to me that short haul/LCC ops are more profitable out of the Berlin, rather than TATL/long haul, given that other mature hubs are "nearby".


But that ignores history. Berlin was not suitable as a hub for 50 years due to political realities and over 70 years due to the infrastructure. And even in the future the infrastructure would not even allow to built a serious long haul operation there. A long haul network hub is (and will not be operationally possible) so obviously other airlines fill the market. Airberlin did try and that was one of the reasons for their demise, as connection times and connection quality was bad and many connection were missed creating huge extra costs for re-booking passengers.And if you look at it,Berlin is well connected with 1-stop connections all around the globe, but that makes it hard to gain traction with a direct connection, especially when you depend on OD feed.


I'm not sure we are disagreeing on anything at all!
I understand the political history, and how Berlin got to where it is. I'm just suggesting that this history cannot probably be "undone", whereas you seem to suggest that it could, if only given the proper airport. Fair enough, I suspect that our opposing theories, will only remain theories though......
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:29 pm

BritTraveller wrote:
Berlin is poorer than West German cities... but it isn't a poverty stricken city. It could at least be served by an AA 767 to PHL and a UA 767 to ORD or IAD. If AA can get BUD and PRG to work, TXL will also work.


AA literally started PHL-BUD and PHL-PRG on a seasonal basis this year. How can you be so sure that AA get those two to "work" anyway? Maybe AA will do seasonal TXL next year?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:59 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

All true, but many major long haul gateways (LHR, notably) have 2 runways, are curfew restricted, and bulge at the seams!
These things suggest to me that short haul/LCC ops are more profitable out of the Berlin, rather than TATL/long haul, given that other mature hubs are "nearby".


But that ignores history. Berlin was not suitable as a hub for 50 years due to political realities and over 70 years due to the infrastructure. And even in the future the infrastructure would not even allow to built a serious long haul operation there. A long haul network hub is (and will not be operationally possible) so obviously other airlines fill the market. Airberlin did try and that was one of the reasons for their demise, as connection times and connection quality was bad and many connection were missed creating huge extra costs for re-booking passengers.And if you look at it,Berlin is well connected with 1-stop connections all around the globe, but that makes it hard to gain traction with a direct connection, especially when you depend on OD feed.


I'm not sure we are disagreeing on anything at all!
I understand the political history, and how Berlin got to where it is. I'm just suggesting that this history cannot probably be "undone", whereas you seem to suggest that it could, if only given the proper airport. Fair enough, I suspect that our opposing theories, will only remain theories though......


Then it was a misunderstanding. I meant that you could not even try due to the infrastructure, much less that you can undo the developments of decades.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:40 pm

Berlin is just not that attractive of a proposition for the major U.S. carriers. Berlin may be a very popular destination when it comes to (largely seasonal) tourism, but how many folks are flying in and out of there on expense accounts? Frankfurt may not be as sexy of a destination, but FRA does tends to see a lot more business travelers. As such, FRA is of much greater interest and importance to the likes of AA, DL, LH, and UA than Berlin.

PHL-TXL is an interesting suggestion, but AA is relatively weak in Germany. Most of the service they do have to Germany today was inherited from US. If TXL was only made possible for UA by the 757 and has been an on-again, off-again proposition for DL since the days of Pan Am (clearly their service is dependent on the fortunes of the U.S. economy - it doesn't seem like DL caters to many Berliners), it certainly isn't surprising to see AA absent from this market. AA's recent addition of BUD and PRG took advantage of the complete lack of U.S. carrier service to these popular tourist destinations. PHL-TXL would have to contend with 2 established American competitor services. I have to think a market like OSL or VIE (currently unserved by any U.S. airline) may be a more attractive proposition than TXL for AA at this time. Along similiar lines, perhaps something like ARN, CPH, DUS, GVA or NCE (served by just one U.S. carrier) could be a better bet too.

If indeed Air Berlin did leave any kind of void to fill (doubtful, but what do I know) I think a carrier like Norwegian - offering significantly lower fares than AA/DL/UA, with long haul scheduling similar to what Air Berlin did - may be best suited to introduce new service. If there is significant higher-end leisure traffic to take advantage of, I'd say a seasonal UA IAD-TXL may be the most likely.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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CARST
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:12 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
CARST wrote:
It's the US airlines who seem to be afraid to tap into smaller European markets. If BA can make Austin work, which has 2 million people living in its metro area, why can't AA make Berlin or Hamburg work which have like 6 million people living in its metro area? And in case of Hamburg we are speaking about a rather rich town.


And AUS has how many TATL flight? Other than the daily BA you're talking about 3w DI (Norwegian) to LGW and 3w DE (Condor) to FRA. One is a long-haul LCC and the other is a leisure carrier. Plus, how is BA flying LHR-AUS any different than DL on JFK-TXL and UA on EWR-TXL? Not a lot. Ok, throw in AA to PHL and maybe UA (or AA, but doubtful) to ORD and that's about the only growth I'll see in short term.

One of the thing that would definitely help TXL getting more TATL is if there are some long-haul LCC based in US. Will that happen? Doubtful (No, as much as people dream about B6 crossing the pond, they're not going to fly to Berlin even if they do).


The Austin Metro Area has just 1.3 million inhabitants. Berlin Metro Area is about 4 million, with another 2+ million people from the rural areas and small cities without intercontinental service using the airports of Berlin, too. And Austin is even way closer to other mega hubs, about 3 hours to DFW and 2.5 hours to IAH (and about an hour longer each when taking public transport). Berlin is a 5 hour drive to MUC, 6 hours to FRA, about 4-5 hours by train. With these "facts" I just want to point out that Berlin is "more remote" than Austin and with having more people living there should be able to get more intercontinental flights.

And it doesn't have to be an airline setting up shop there and opening a hub. It would be enough to have Norwegian or Condor or Level or some of the non-legacy-airlines starting longhaul flights from here. But even that isn't happening. And I could easily see AA or DL going nonstop to multiple destinations.

FlyHappy wrote:
you raise a fair question about the past flights, and from a distance, I would think the the rise of the TATL JV's, parting out of AB's routes, and LH group focus at its other hubs makes todays long haul environment different from the 90's ?

Question is: will any current, viable carrier really grow long haul from TXL/BER, or has that ship sailed (for various reasons) , leaving long haul to less committed LCC's? Someone else brought up BCN as a possible similar example, and that seems to have some validity; a viable market, but dominated by a nearish hub.


You have a valid point, too. The hubs in Europe are settled. At least for the legacy airlines existing since decades. LH won't change their dual-hub strategy. BA won't open another hub beside London. Air France will stay at Paris and Iberia at MAD. You have the smaller ones like AY at HEL and LO at WAW, the nearly bankrupt AZ at FCO Air Italy now backed by QR at MXP. The daughters of LH at their national hubs (Brussels, Austrian, Swiss). And there is SAS in the Scandinavian countries. But that's basically the "old money". And we have airlines which are changing aviation as we know it, not bound to countries or cities, just going for the dough. As mentioned above, Level, Norwegian or airlines like Condor, who once were mainly in the charter business, but have gone for a lot of point-to-point routes over the years.

But overall my larger hope is not on the European, but on the US airlines, who want to offer non-stop routes from Berlin to their respective hubs. Other airlines currently show them how it's done. With Hainan, Scoot, Qatar, MIAT, Turkish and AC Rouge we have multiple carriers in Berlin believing in the market. Some of them are here since many years (Hainan, Qatar, MIAT).
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:33 am

We have this discussion on a regular base. That new Airport terminal they call "the BER" is hardly large enough to cope with the exsisting Point to Point traffic. How could they handle the additional Business which would be generated by feediing Long haul routes? LH is not interested and leaves the TATL to ist JV Partners whoch are Profit shared. That is a Commercial decision and the Berlin Senate has to accept that. These Clowns would certainly not make it better
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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dangerhere
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:13 am

I've lived in Berlin for a decade more or less now and having something tangible to compare to (my home city Dublin), Berlin is very much in a unique situation. We ultimately don't need long haul any more than a regional airport like Münster doesn't need it. If we want to fly transatlantic, you have a short hop to Frankfurt, Munich, AMS, Paris, Dublin, Zurich, Copenhagen, Vienna plus many more all within easy reach. Also train connections mean that a train from my local train station here in Berlin can leave me at the arrivals hall of three international airports (FRA, CLG and DUS). I'd rather fly to connect than take the train but I'm just making the point.

BER as already mentioned will be too small from the day it opens. The flag carrier, Lufthansa, doesn't even fly international flights within Europe any more from it's own capital city, what does that tell you!

I take a bit of exception to Berlin being described as an economic blackhole of sorts. Yeah the crap startups and "poor" hipstery tourists and plentiful but for the people that actually live here 12 months a year, Berlin is also home to a thriving SME sector, providing specialist engineering and design services with customers right across the DACH region. I know this because both my better half and myself work for such companies. On the more established level, you also have firms like BASF and Rolls Royce plus plenty of Biotech firms our towards Potsdam. Things are slowly changing, sure look at the crazy property bubble going on at the moment! There are obviously issues with unemployment, but that's largely down to two things: history (the after effects of communism and a city an island cut off from the rest of the Germany) and two: post reunification, the enforced "capitalization" of Berlin, leaving the city deep for decades in debt for the sake of moving the Hauptstadt from Bonn, a side effect of which is vanity projects just like Berlin Hauptbahnhof and BER.
 
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dangerhere
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:41 am

FlyHappy wrote:
flyinTLow wrote:
...
Berlin, as sad as it may sound, and trust me, I live in this city and love it for what it is, will always remain econically insignificant and therefore only attract tourists for a weekend getaway on a dirtcheap low-cost carrier ticket as well as people in search of something they hope to find here - and it is never money! And no new airport - should it ever open - will change that.

Cheers.

Thilo


Outstanding insight! Thank you for the local perspective, and confirms my personal suspicions from a distance.
It is unfortunate, even personally, I was planning time-constrained visit to Germany this winter with a young family member, and despite have far greater interest in Hamburg and Berlin, I am feeling logistically railroaded into using FRA/DUS/MUC .

Out of curiosity, are IcelandAir/WOW a "well regarded" way for Berliners to TATL ?


Where in the US / Canada are you based? From somewhere like Frankfurt you can easily travel to Berlin / Hamburg / Munich / Cologne on the ICE train in 2-5 hours with tickets from €29 one way if booked in advance from Deutsche Bahn (in English) https://www.bahn.com/i/view/index.shtml

Frankfurt makes for a good base, just there's not an awful lot there except skyscrapers but there is Mainz and plenty of other smaller cities nearby. If you're looking to come specifically to Berlin and Hamburg, fly via Dublin with Aer Lingus to either city and then between both cities the train takes about 90 minutes or slightly more on the ICE. Plenty of other options as well, the point being you don't need to fly transatlantic to Germany, when there are many alternatives with one change (something you will need to do anyway to reach other parts of Germany) . I mention AL as they have preclearence in Dublin on the way back home so you will arrive in the US at a domestic gate.


Regarding Iceland, nothing against flying there, but for most Berliners it would be thru a closer hub. Simply no need to fly there. For example, someone I know went recently from Berlin to Denver via Frankfurt with Lufthansa. I think that would be fairly standard and the Berlin - FRA leg would cost next to nothing.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:51 am

the total inability of the Berlin City/state government to widen the industrial base of the City is shpwn at the fact that the Senate was not interested to Support a 600 Mio € Investment by Siemens. How can you build up high yield traffic when industry is chased away?

what I forgot, today is the 57th anniversary of the Berlin Wall. The wall is history, the mentalit ythat built the wall still exists
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:05 pm

CARST wrote:
The Austin Metro Area has just 1.3 million inhabitants. Berlin Metro Area is about 4 million, with another 2+ million people from the rural areas and small cities without intercontinental service using the airports of Berlin, too. And Austin is even way closer to other mega hubs, about 3 hours to DFW and 2.5 hours to IAH (and about an hour longer each when taking public transport). Berlin is a 5 hour drive to MUC, 6 hours to FRA, about 4-5 hours by train. With these "facts" I just want to point out that Berlin is "more remote" than Austin and with having more people living there should be able to get more intercontinental flights.


To start, Austin metro area has now grown to close to 2M people (It was 1.9M in 2014). Add in San Antonio nearby (2.3M), the catchment is close to 4+M also.

And again, it's not like Austin has really that much more TATL services anyway (Again, it's 1 legacy and 2 "leisure" carriers). And good luck trying to ride public transport (other than a plane) from AUS to DFW or IAH :rotfl: (I can tell you, it's a giant PITA that you're better off flying, been there, done that).

CARST wrote:
But overall my larger hope is not on the European, but on the US airlines, who want to offer non-stop routes from Berlin to their respective hubs. Other airlines currently show them how it's done. With Hainan, Scoot, Qatar, MIAT, Turkish and AC Rouge we have multiple carriers in Berlin believing in the market. Some of them are here since many years (Hainan, Qatar, MIAT).


Let see, on your list you got:
1. QR, a "super connector" airline
2. TK, which doesn't even need to connect anybody with the large amount of Turkish population pretty much everywhere in Germany. And quite frankly, TK is as European as SU anyway.
3. Scoot, "Low cost" arm of a legacy (SQ). Not something that US carriers have.
4. AC Rouge, Another "Low cost" arm of a legacy (AC). Again, not something that US carriers have.
5. MIAT, which has to do with historical tie between Mongolia and East Germany, and continues on after German reunification
6. Hainan, operating routes that none of the other PRC carriers (especially CA) want to fly. :duck:

My point? Right now you simply doesn't have the long-haul "leisure" carrier base in US, nor one base in Berlin (Eurowings doesn't count). Maybe we need a Norwegian Deutschland?
 
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terrificturk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:26 pm

CARST wrote:

Other companies are pushing their way to the worldstage, too. And beside the start-ups, more and more legacy companies are moving their German or European headquarters to Berlin to get close to the government of Europe’s wealthiest nation. Nike, eBay, Amazon and Pfizer are four of them. German insurance companies are on the move like the AOK. German real estate giant Deutsche Wohnen moved to Berlin last year . And of course, 22 years after the German government moved back to Berlin, some parts are still in Bonn or elsewhere and are very slowly being moved to Berlin to not impact the economy in their current cities too much. The next move will be that of the huge German intelligence service BND (Germany’s CIA/MI6). I could go on with the list for quit a while.

Since World War 2 destroyed Berlin and since the post-war Soviet occupation of East Germany made all industries leave Berlin and the „East“, the city of West-Berlin and later the city of (the reunified) Berlin always lived of the subsidies from West Germany. (FYI: We have a system here in Germany where richer states subsidies poorer states.) BUT that is changing now. In 2018 Berlin will have a positive income stream for the third year in the row. The city is making money. Finally. This is a massive change to decades of a loss making city.

The economic growth of the past 25 years is finally visible in the pure numbers, too. And beside the positive balance of the cities government, we also have a situation of extremely expensive rents and ground prices. The times of cheap land and living in Berlin are over. This might hamper growth a bit, but right now it’s a sign of change here.

Coming to an end with this long monologue:
If this city could fill multiple nonstop flying aircraft to the USA in the early 1990s, why can’t we fill them now, 25-30 years later, with a far better economic situation and a much larger catchment area? The city is underserved...


Facts can be a bitch: German HQ of Nike is Frankfurt, German HQ of Amazon is Munich, while most of work is done in European HQ in Luxemburg.

Not much else in Berlin that is making money and the city itself has approx. 60Bn Euros debt. Even with a little surplus now, that debt needs to be serviced, as well as the interest on it.

Expensive rents and ground prices are largely the result of the lefty-loony-green politics, as the socialist party owns 90% of the city's social housing and artificially reduces availability. This 'worked well' in other red-green cities such as Nuremberg, Munich, Hamburg and so forth.

Air Service: many many airlines, incl. Lufthansa, Unted and otehrs have tired very hard to viably fill aeroplanes out of Berlin for intercontinantel flights. They have all given up, as the yields were too low, they still are and signs are that this will continue. No wonder that BER plans more for LCCs than others.

The rest is a surrealistic wish.
 
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CARST
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:44 pm

terrificturk wrote:
Facts can be a bitch: German HQ of Nike is Frankfurt, German HQ of Amazon is Munich, while most of work is done in European HQ in Luxemburg.


Nike annouced just days ago to move their complete German headquarter to Berlin. 70 people moved already this year, another 110 will follow in the next months. Source: https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehme ... 83702.html

Amazon are operating their HQ for Fresh & Prime Now in Northwest Berlin, they also have a large customer servive operation in the city center, as well as their HQ managing the German Seller Central (so all business selling via Amazon). This is like 80% of their HQ work being done in Berlin. Plus two two of fourteen warehouses are outside of the city, too.

And these are just examples anyway, if you look up who's here, things have changed massively within the last 10 years.

terrificturk wrote:
Not much else in Berlin that is making money and the city itself has approx. 60Bn Euros debt. Even with a little surplus now, that debt needs to be serviced, as well as the interest on it.


You are not up to date apparently. Berlin made a plus of 2.2 billion Euro in 2017, they used 50% to pay off old credits and interests, while using the other 50% to sponsor further growth. For a large city in Germany that's a very good result.

Also for for the first six months of 2018 the net profit was 1.18 billion Euro.

Source (in German): https://www.rbb24.de/wirtschaft/beitrag ... -2018.html

terrificturk wrote:
Expensive rents and ground prices are largely the result of the lefty-loony-green politics, as the socialist party owns 90% of the city's social housing and artificially reduces availability. This 'worked well' in other red-green cities such as Nuremberg, Munich, Hamburg and so forth.


While I agree that these clowns from the three parties running the town have no clue at all what they do, these morons are in the lucky situation to run a town which has grown so quickly that it's basically impossible currently to not generate a positive result. I would argue a conservative government would even generate a profit two or three times as high and not pay for "bicycle streets" and other bullshit that costs us millions of Euros. Nevertheless, it looks good for Berlin right now. And lucky Brandenburg (the state surrounding Berlin) even gets something from the cake, too, and made a nice net profit in the past two years from all the people moving into the metro area, but outside of the city limits.

The expensive prices are clearly driven by demand. In the past 10 years, more than 110 persons moved into Berlin on an average day. Year by year about 40,000 to 45,000 people move into the city. And additionally about a quarter of that moves into the metro area, too (making Brandenburg good money as mentioned above). See: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/stad ... 21954.html

What the citys government should do is start building social housing projects again, because mainly the people with lower incomes can't pay the rents here anymore. This is a dire and critical situation for the city's.

terrificturk wrote:
Air Service: many many airlines, incl. Lufthansa, Unted and otehrs have tired very hard to viably fill aeroplanes out of Berlin for intercontinantel flights. They have all given up, as the yields were too low, they still are and signs are that this will continue. No wonder that BER plans more for LCCs than others.

The rest is a surrealistic wish.


Your point is rather mood. Lufthansa is focusing on FRA and MUC anyway. They even ignore economic powerhouses like Hamburg, Düsseldorf or Stuttgart. Perhaps that's needed to operate a succesful hub system, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what they do.

Continental (now United) flies to Berlin now for about 15 years. They started with 752, went to 762, then 763 (when the 762s were phased out) and sometimes even bring the 764 into town. So United sees the market here and doesn't seem to plan to leave.

The question is why don't they start other cities? And why can't Delta make Berlin work? And why isn't AA trying?


zakuivcustom wrote:
1. QR, a "super connector" airline
2. TK, which doesn't even need to connect anybody with the large amount of Turkish population pretty much everywhere in Germany. And quite frankly, TK is as European as SU anyway.


After the demise of AB, QR upgraded from A320 to 77W, TK went from A320/A321s to A333/77W. TK are doing way more then serving the ethnic traffic (which is large of course). They are a connector airline like QR. But the point is, that the demand is here in town to fill these planes. Constantly, year round. QR is even thinking about adding a second flight.

zakuivcustom wrote:
3. Scoot, "Low cost" arm of a legacy (SQ). Not something that US carriers have.
4. AC Rouge, Another "Low cost" arm of a legacy (AC). Again, not something that US carriers have.


All US majors went through chapter 11 and now have a cost base comparable to AC Rouge. AC never was in the luxurious position to shed of much of their cost (mostly employees and retirement funds) through such a process. Also the offers in Y on Rouge and the US3 is very comparable IMHO.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Hainan, operating routes that none of the other PRC carriers (especially CA) want to fly.


Unlike Air China, China Easern und China Southern, Hainan is no former CAAC airline. They are a seprate, private entity and have totally different model. From my experience they are higher priced and also offer better standard. Of couse they are profiting from no other Chinese airline operating in Berlin and have expanded their operation here nicely over the years. Their planes are mostly full BTW.


But my whole point was that Berlin is growing with new connections, mostly towards the East of the worldmap and that I'm missing a similar growth to the West. Air Berlin, whatever you want to say about them, was mostly profitable on their longhaul network. They had daily flights to JFK, ORD, MIA and LAX from TXL and DUS, with other destinations flown seasonally. These are all AA hubs. And with BA not having upgraded Berlin to larger aircraft and not having increased frequency, I assume that these pax are lost for OneWorld.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:24 pm

A little offtopic but the worldwide connecting offer by easyJet is by all accounts doing well and growing rapidly in numbers that use it. Might be a sign that Berlin could see growth in the long haul sector
 
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dangerhere
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:40 pm

CARST wrote:
But my whole point was that Berlin is growing with new connections, mostly towards the East of the worldmap and that I'm missing a similar growth to the West. Air Berlin, whatever you want to say about them, was mostly profitable on their longhaul network. They had daily flights to JFK, ORD, MIA and LAX from TXL and DUS, with other destinations flown seasonally. These are all AA hubs. And with BA not having upgraded Berlin to larger aircraft and not having increased frequency, I assume that these pax are lost for OneWorld.


Some very detailed posts you had there and much I agree with. At the end of the day though, Berlin for multiple reasons is not able to support long haul. There are 3-4 global hubs within an hour's flight away. Berlin is a quintessentially easyjet and Ryanair city and it's very hard to change that, as it appears to be what the market is asking for. Just the same as the market is asking for discount supermarkets everywhere and the same reason. I'd gladly give Lufthansa my money to fly me home direct to Dublin, instead I'm stuck with flying Ryanair or Ryanair-lite (Aer Lingus).

Berlin needs to focus on it's strengths and find its own identity. In this day and age, someone flying from rural Brandenburg to LA can hop on an Aerlingus plane to Dublin, clear US customs, reach LAX and walk out of the terminal without too much hassle, likewise flying thru Schiphol or Heathrow. I don't see the real advantage of creating a route that there doesn't seem to be a market for. If there was, the tens of thousands of American civilians and ex soldiers and their families living in Berlin would have made it known by now.

Look at Germania, super airline, offering some very niche markets with high demand to unusual destinations and seems to be doing quite well financially. That's playing to your strengths.
 
notconcerned
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:44 pm

CARST wrote:
All US majors went through chapter 11 and now have a cost base comparable to AC Rouge. AC never was in the luxurious position to shed of much of their cost (mostly employees and retirement funds) through such a process. Also the offers in Y on Rouge and the US3 is very comparable IMHO.


It's not so much about the comparable cost but rather the US3 don't have a high capacity leisure config aircraft to make the route profitable. AC Rouge 767 has 282 seats. UA767 has 214 seats, AA767 has 209 seats, and DL767 has 208-226 seats. With lower capacity, the US3 has to charge more per seat which is unlikely given the low yield market. Hence the earlier post that none of the US3 have a dedicated high-capacity leisure sub-fleet to make seasonal/smaller/lower-yield markets work.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:02 pm

notconcerned wrote:
CARST wrote:
All US majors went through chapter 11 and now have a cost base comparable to AC Rouge. AC never was in the luxurious position to shed of much of their cost (mostly employees and retirement funds) through such a process. Also the offers in Y on Rouge and the US3 is very comparable IMHO.


It's not so much about the comparable cost but rather the US3 don't have a high capacity leisure config aircraft to make the route profitable. AC Rouge 767 has 282 seats. UA767 has 214 seats, AA767 has 209 seats, and DL767 has 208-226 seats. With lower capacity, the US3 has to charge more per seat which is unlikely given the low yield market. Hence the earlier post that none of the US3 have a dedicated high-capacity leisure sub-fleet to make seasonal/smaller/lower-yield markets work.

I am surprised that you can get flights from Berlin to Florida return, less than 1 month out, for less than 600 € on AA (and partners).
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:23 pm

SCQ83 wrote:

In any case, Berlin is not that bad as many posters point it here. I.e. Berlin has the strongest population growth in Germany, and that is partially due to tech companies establishing in the city, government jobs and also more non-bank financial institution that are looking for a better lifestyle compared to Frankfurt.


Berlin is, *possibly* excepting London, the most important European city for startups and entrepreneurship, in the way that San Francisco is for the US. That alone means venture capital and other buy-side investors will visit the city.
 
JDawgboy512
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:55 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
CARST wrote:
The Austin Metro Area has just 1.3 million inhabitants. Berlin Metro Area is about 4 million, with another 2+ million people from the rural areas and small cities without intercontinental service using the airports of Berlin, too. And Austin is even way closer to other mega hubs, about 3 hours to DFW and 2.5 hours to IAH (and about an hour longer each when taking public transport). Berlin is a 5 hour drive to MUC, 6 hours to FRA, about 4-5 hours by train. With these "facts" I just want to point out that Berlin is "more remote" than Austin and with having more people living there should be able to get more intercontinental flights.


To start, Austin metro area has now grown to close to 2M people (It was 1.9M in 2014). Add in San Antonio nearby (2.3M), the catchment is close to 4+M also.

And again, it's not like Austin has really that much more TATL services anyway (Again, it's 1 legacy and 2 "leisure" carriers). And good luck trying to ride public transport (other than a plane) from AUS to DFW or IAH :rotfl: (I can tell you, it's a giant PITA that you're better off flying, been there, done that).

CARST wrote:
But overall my larger hope is not on the European, but on the US airlines, who want to offer non-stop routes from Berlin to their respective hubs. Other airlines currently show them how it's done. With Hainan, Scoot, Qatar, MIAT, Turkish and AC Rouge we have multiple carriers in Berlin believing in the market. Some of them are here since many years (Hainan, Qatar, MIAT).


Let see, on your list you got:
1. QR, a "super connector" airline
2. TK, which doesn't even need to connect anybody with the large amount of Turkish population pretty much everywhere in Germany. And quite frankly, TK is as European as SU anyway.
3. Scoot, "Low cost" arm of a legacy (SQ). Not something that US carriers have.
4. AC Rouge, Another "Low cost" arm of a legacy (AC). Again, not something that US carriers have.
5. MIAT, which has to do with historical tie between Mongolia and East Germany, and continues on after German reunification
6. Hainan, operating routes that none of the other PRC carriers (especially CA) want to fly. :duck:

My point? Right now you simply doesn't have the long-haul "leisure" carrier base in US, nor one base in Berlin (Eurowings doesn't count). Maybe we need a Norwegian Deutschland?



Austin's Metro is over 2.1 million now.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:19 pm

FermiParadox wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The collapse of Air Berlin has left Germany’s largest city with only one year round route and one seasonal route to the United States - a daily United 767 to EWR, and a seasonal Delta 767 to JFK. Berlin is one of the largest urban areas in Europe, but has sparse service to the US.

It would seem if AA could launch PHL-PRG and PHL-BUD, surely a PHL-TXL could be possible. Even a MIA-TXL or ORD-TXL, even seasonal, would be better than nothing. United too could capitalize on ORD-TXL or even IAD-TXL. Delta could pull something from ATL or DTW.

Bottom line is, this is a huge European city with little service to the US. Someone could capitalize on AirBerlin’s absence.


Despite being the seat of government, Berlin really has no "government" type industries that you see in say London, or Washington DC. Furthermore, there are almost no multinational companies that are based there, certainly none with any significant American presence. As such, there's little with regards to high end traffic to warrant year round service from both points of sale.

Despite being a "large" city by European standards, Berlin is one of the poorest capitals of the "Western European" cohort.

Couple these two things with a barely functioning TXL and it's not really a big recipe for success.

That being said, AA will start PHL-TXL next summer or I will buy you a currywurst of your choice.


AA PHL-TXL begins June 7th 2019. All we had to do was start a thread about it.

No currywurst, but I’ll happily trek to Berlin next summer now.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
FermiParadox
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:30 pm

MLIAA wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The collapse of Air Berlin has left Germany’s largest city with only one year round route and one seasonal route to the United States - a daily United 767 to EWR, and a seasonal Delta 767 to JFK. Berlin is one of the largest urban areas in Europe, but has sparse service to the US.

It would seem if AA could launch PHL-PRG and PHL-BUD, surely a PHL-TXL could be possible. Even a MIA-TXL or ORD-TXL, even seasonal, would be better than nothing. United too could capitalize on ORD-TXL or even IAD-TXL. Delta could pull something from ATL or DTW.

Bottom line is, this is a huge European city with little service to the US. Someone could capitalize on AirBerlin’s absence.


Despite being the seat of government, Berlin really has no "government" type industries that you see in say London, or Washington DC. Furthermore, there are almost no multinational companies that are based there, certainly none with any significant American presence. As such, there's little with regards to high end traffic to warrant year round service from both points of sale.

Despite being a "large" city by European standards, Berlin is one of the poorest capitals of the "Western European" cohort.

Couple these two things with a barely functioning TXL and it's not really a big recipe for success.

That being said, AA will start PHL-TXL next summer or I will buy you a currywurst of your choice.


AA PHL-TXL begins June 7th 2019. All we had to do was start a thread about it.

No currywurst, but I’ll happily trek to Berlin next summer now.


I thought of that comment when I saw the press release. If you go, the best currywurst that's easily accessible is probably Curry 36 at the Zoo train station (out front, actually). There are a couple other that I think are objectively better but a little harder to get to.

Have a good trip :)
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:54 pm

MLIAA wrote:
AA PHL-TXL begins June 7th 2019. All we had to do was start a thread about it.

No currywurst, but I’ll happily trek to Berlin next summer now.


Then someone please start a Trans-Atlantic Hamburg thread? HAM needs to catch up a lot.
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XAM2175
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 pm

dangerhere wrote:
Frankfurt makes for a good base, just there's not an awful lot there except skyscrapers


Hah, not to be too mean (and sorry to go off-topic) but I dropped into Frankfurt for a night back in December off the 744 from TXL and... it turns out I was wrong - there is a city even more boring on a winter's evening than Sydney :p
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Pretty much everything in Central/Eastern Europe can fill in Summer and empty the rest of the year. I do bet Berlin picks up more Summer only service to NA. AA has reported PRG and BUD were excellent this summer.

Good summer market, weak year round. I bet they will land more summer only service.
 
748iDEN
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:40 pm

terrificturk wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
Remember too that from 1945 to 1991 Berlin wasn't the capital of the Federal Republic - until 1949 there wasn't one, and for the rest of the time it was Bonn.

Meanwhile Frankfurt became and has remained Germany's de-facto economic "capital", while the unique limitations on air service into and out of occupied Berlin encouraged the development of FRA (and to a lesser extent MUC) as a hub, providing connecting traffic that Berlin also lacks.

There are some similarities elsewhere - Canberra, for one, is Australia's federal capital but can't even muster service to New Zealand, what with SYD just up the road and MEL only a bit further off.

Switzerland too - although it has no official capital, the de-facto "Federal City" of Berne may as well not even have an airport thanks to ZRH.


Sorry, but Frankfurt has never been and to this day is not Germany's economic capital. That is utter rubbish. Germany is a federal republic, very similar to the U.S. and as such has its regional strongholds. The most affluent and prsoperous by far is Munich followed by Stuttgart and then Frankfurt (all as greater regions and surrounds)... it is tru to say that the economic might is largely concentrated in teh south/southwest. the north merely has Hamburg to shine a little.

Berlin is and never was a real economic stronghold due t many reasons. As far as modern times go, the lefty-loony mentality for one has held many companies back and the Air Berlin and airport fiasco are proving the point very clearly. This may be a sad situation, but that is how it is.

Quantity does not equal Quality.... but it is the latter that makes airliens earn money.


It’s interesting how many people tend to forget the economic “might” of the north western region. Specifically Düsseldorf and the Rhine Ruhr region, it’s an absolute economic powerhouse. Yet DUS doesn’t really have a whole lot of TATL service that it could easily support. I will agree with you on that Berlin really doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grow due to the seemingly constant airport construction issues and the fact that there really isn’t a large enough wealthy population to pull from.
 
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terrificturk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 am

748iDEN wrote:
It’s interesting how many people tend to forget the economic “might” of the north western region. Specifically Düsseldorf and the Rhine Ruhr region, it’s an absolute economic powerhouse. Yet DUS doesn’t really have a whole lot of TATL service that it could easily support. I will agree with you on that Berlin really doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grow due to the seemingly constant airport construction issues and the fact that there really isn’t a large enough wealthy population to pull from.


DUS and its surroundings, while holding old money, are too close to FRA - and off border to other places to warrant steady TATL. Yields are better sure, but LH has failed again and again and their premium products on teh ground and in teh cabin are good enough. Economically, they cannot mirror the south/southeast. The mere figures show that every year.... and every attempt LH makes for TATL flights, also fails.... its like Manchester trying to keep up with London....
 
SCQ83
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:06 am

terrificturk wrote:
748iDEN wrote:
It’s interesting how many people tend to forget the economic “might” of the north western region. Specifically Düsseldorf and the Rhine Ruhr region, it’s an absolute economic powerhouse. Yet DUS doesn’t really have a whole lot of TATL service that it could easily support. I will agree with you on that Berlin really doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grow due to the seemingly constant airport construction issues and the fact that there really isn’t a large enough wealthy population to pull from.


DUS and its surroundings, while holding old money, are too close to FRA - and off border to other places to warrant steady TATL. Yields are better sure, but LH has failed again and again and their premium products on teh ground and in teh cabin are good enough. Economically, they cannot mirror the south/southeast. The mere figures show that every year.... and every attempt LH makes for TATL flights, also fails.... its like Manchester trying to keep up with London....


NRW is a basket case. There are really decaying post-industrial cities and areas in NRW, like Duisburg.

I always felt Düsseldorf and Cologne are somehow stuck in the 90s. Look at those major new companies like Amazon or Google. They are by default in Berlin or Munich, and maybe Hamburg. Even from a tourism perspective. What does Cologne offer today other than the cathedral (that has been there for centuries) and the Christmas Markets or the Karneval which also are somehow tired as an attraction? Even historically less touristic cities like Stuttgart have upped their game with new museums (Mercedes, Porsche) and attractions for international visitors. Cologne used to be the gay capital of Germany and today is nothing else than the NRW gay capital, while Berlin is a global mecca.

The only attraction of NRW is volume; there are +20 million people living near those airports.
 
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JakubH
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:27 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Pretty much everything in Central/Eastern Europe can fill in Summer and empty the rest of the year. I do bet Berlin picks up more Summer only service to NA. AA has reported PRG and BUD were excellent this summer.

Good summer market, weak year round. I bet they will land more summer only service.

I think this no longer holds. LAX-Warsaw on LOT is year-round and has grown from 4 to 6 weekly.

Also, I think PRG is no longer a low-cost tourist destination. It's not MUC or VIE, but Prague itself is among the richest regions in the EU (there is a large contrast between the capital and the rest of the country, however):

Eurostat said GPD per capita in Prague was €34,700, and GDP in PPS was €53,100. For the whole country, GPD per capita was €16,700 and GDP in PPS was €25,600. Prague also accounts for 25 percent of the Czech Republic’s GDP [but only 10% of its population].
https://prague.tv/en/s72/Directory/c214 ... -EU-region

This is also quite an interesting comparison: OECD regions by per capita PPP - Prague is not far from Ile-de-France and Stockholm, for instance, and much higher than Berlin. Of course, demand is not measured in PPP, but in people willing to use a flight, but my point is that this is no longer a poor region that does not have a large local demand, aside from international visitors :)

Finally, the Czech Republic also currently has EU's lowest unemployment rate of 2.4%: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... statistics as its businesses are more competitive on the global scale, meaning more opportunities for business travel.
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:14 am

Berlin may be the Curry Wurst capital of the world but that does not generate air traffic. Berlin may be high up in the ranks of O&D traffic which has many reasons, not only Hipsters but also ethnic traffic generates that..

What Berlin does not have is the spice needed to become a workable hub and that is high yielding Y and J traffic.

Berlin is the largest City in Germany but outside the City state there is Potsdam and a lot of Mark Btandenburg sand. FRA has a 6 milllion imediate catchment ares, DUS has much more and Germany as a whole is poly centric with a lot of hidden Champions (world market leaders in their field) all across the Country.

That favors a central place which FRA is, nearby are the demoraphic centres of not only Germany but the EU as well. And the ICE Train Station in walking distance to T1 is the ICEing on the cake.
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fraT
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:46 am

Seems as if Primera Air will start TXL-JFK/BOS/YYZ next summer.
The flights are loaded in the GDS and also on their web site.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:04 am

fraT wrote:
Seems as if Primera Air will start TXL-JFK/BOS/YYZ next summer.
The flights are loaded in the GDS and also on their web site.


All flights with 737MAX9, thats going to be a lof of fuelstops! Would be routes for the 321LRs, when are they coming to Primera?

I also wonder what Primera Air expects to win after there is already so much competition from Berlin, the Transatlantic Market is anything but unlimited big. Yields cant be great with so many competitors.
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dangerhere
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:46 am

SCQ83 wrote:
terrificturk wrote:
748iDEN wrote:
It’s interesting how many people tend to forget the economic “might” of the north western region. Specifically Düsseldorf and the Rhine Ruhr region, it’s an absolute economic powerhouse. Yet DUS doesn’t really have a whole lot of TATL service that it could easily support. I will agree with you on that Berlin really doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grow due to the seemingly constant airport construction issues and the fact that there really isn’t a large enough wealthy population to pull from.


DUS and its surroundings, while holding old money, are too close to FRA - and off border to other places to warrant steady TATL. Yields are better sure, but LH has failed again and again and their premium products on teh ground and in teh cabin are good enough. Economically, they cannot mirror the south/southeast. The mere figures show that every year.... and every attempt LH makes for TATL flights, also fails.... its like Manchester trying to keep up with London....


NRW is a basket case. There are really decaying post-industrial cities and areas in NRW, like Duisburg.

I always felt Düsseldorf and Cologne are somehow stuck in the 90s. Look at those major new companies like Amazon or Google. They are by default in Berlin or Munich, and maybe Hamburg. Even from a tourism perspective. What does Cologne offer today other than the cathedral (that has been there for centuries) and the Christmas Markets or the Karneval which also are somehow tired as an attraction? Even historically less touristic cities like Stuttgart have upped their game with new museums (Mercedes, Porsche) and attractions for international visitors. Cologne used to be the gay capital of Germany and today is nothing else than the NRW gay capital, while Berlin is a global mecca.

The only attraction of NRW is volume; there are +20 million people living near those airports.


This. Places like Gelsenkirchen and Duisburg are far poorer than supposedly poor places like Berlin and Leipzig. Dortmund, Wuppertal, Siegen, Bochum, Essen, all prime dumps with very little going on. NRW may be making money as a State, but it's a land of broken windows and unemployed people drinking beers at 10 am. As for Cologne, friendly people but the city gives ugly a new meaning.
 
fraT
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:06 pm

dangerhere wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
terrificturk wrote:

DUS and its surroundings, while holding old money, are too close to FRA - and off border to other places to warrant steady TATL. Yields are better sure, but LH has failed again and again and their premium products on teh ground and in teh cabin are good enough. Economically, they cannot mirror the south/southeast. The mere figures show that every year.... and every attempt LH makes for TATL flights, also fails.... its like Manchester trying to keep up with London....


NRW is a basket case. There are really decaying post-industrial cities and areas in NRW, like Duisburg.

I always felt Düsseldorf and Cologne are somehow stuck in the 90s. Look at those major new companies like Amazon or Google. They are by default in Berlin or Munich, and maybe Hamburg. Even from a tourism perspective. What does Cologne offer today other than the cathedral (that has been there for centuries) and the Christmas Markets or the Karneval which also are somehow tired as an attraction? Even historically less touristic cities like Stuttgart have upped their game with new museums (Mercedes, Porsche) and attractions for international visitors. Cologne used to be the gay capital of Germany and today is nothing else than the NRW gay capital, while Berlin is a global mecca.

The only attraction of NRW is volume; there are +20 million people living near those airports.


This. Places like Gelsenkirchen and Duisburg are far poorer than supposedly poor places like Berlin and Leipzig. Dortmund, Wuppertal, Siegen, Bochum, Essen, all prime dumps with very little going on. NRW may be making money as a State, but it's a land of broken windows and unemployed people drinking beers at 10 am. As for Cologne, friendly people but the city gives ugly a new meaning.


With an unemployment rate of 6.8, the above is highly exaggerated.
 
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terrificturk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:18 pm

fraT wrote:
With an unemployment rate of 6.8, the above is highly exaggerated.


Germany has an unemployment of approx 5,2-5,3 % at the moment... it is a booming time...
The prime states such as Bavaria (2,9%) and Baden-Würrtemberg (3,3%) are doing exceptionally well here.... 6,8% is near bottom of that list at the moment !
In bad times, when Bavaria goes up to 5/6%, dumps like NRW are near the 10 %.... all in all, a highly overrated place, not well governed on communal and state-level... but okay lets leave it here...
 
fraT
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:32 pm

terrificturk wrote:
fraT wrote:
With an unemployment rate of 6.8, the above is highly exaggerated.


Germany has an unemployment of approx 5,2-5,3 % at the moment... it is a booming time...
The prime states such as Bavaria (2,9%) and Baden-Würrtemberg (3,3%) are doing exceptionally well here.... 6,8% is near bottom of that list at the moment !
In bad times, when Bavaria goes up to 5/6%, dumps like NRW are near the 10 %.... all in all, a highly overrated place, not well governed on communal and state-level... but okay lets leave it here...


If you would ask people all over Germany, which state is better governed, NRW or Berlin, you probably would get a lot more people saying NRW.
It is true that the region is having harder times since some of the traditional industries closed down.
But still 10 out of 30 DAX companies are headquartered in NRW (although I would leave out LH from that list), only Siemens is partly in Berlin.

Btw, I am neither from NRW nor living there.
 
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terrificturk
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:45 pm

fraT wrote:
terrificturk wrote:
fraT wrote:
With an unemployment rate of 6.8, the above is highly exaggerated.


Germany has an unemployment of approx 5,2-5,3 % at the moment... it is a booming time...
The prime states such as Bavaria (2,9%) and Baden-Würrtemberg (3,3%) are doing exceptionally well here.... 6,8% is near bottom of that list at the moment !
In bad times, when Bavaria goes up to 5/6%, dumps like NRW are near the 10 %.... all in all, a highly overrated place, not well governed on communal and state-level... but okay lets leave it here...


If you would ask people all over Germany, which state is better governed, NRW or Berlin, you probably would get a lot more people saying NRW.
It is true that the region is having harder times since some of the traditional industries closed down.
But still 10 out of 30 DAX companies are headquartered in NRW (although I would leave out LH from that list), only Siemens is partly in Berlin.

Btw, I am neither from NRW nor living there.


Agreed. Siemns only did it for historic reasons, as its roots are in Berlin (yet another overrated place)...
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:00 pm

Those Ruhr area dumps which are mentioned here create tons of ethnic traffic at DUS to Turkey, the Middle East and North Africa and DTM is a Wizz hub not without a reason.
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Judge1310
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:23 pm

DLHAM wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
AA PHL-TXL begins June 7th 2019. All we had to do was start a thread about it.

No currywurst, but I’ll happily trek to Berlin next summer now.


Then someone please start a Trans-Atlantic Hamburg thread? HAM needs to catch up a lot.


Please, no! HH, to me, is like a private gem, where those who know, know. Let the masses flow on into Berlin and Munich. :lol:
 
SCQ83
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:42 pm

It is funny ever since this thread started a couple of weeks ago, 4 new TATL routes have been announced for Berlin: Boston (PF), New York JFK (PF), Philadelphia (AA) and Toronto (PF).

PanHAM wrote:
Those Ruhr area dumps which are mentioned here create tons of ethnic traffic at DUS to Turkey, the Middle East and North Africa and DTM is a Wizz hub not without a reason.


But that does not create fancy connections for American globetrotters to visit, like the case of Berlin. Again the only advantage of DUS/CGN is volume, not wealth. NRW is so densely populated; it is about 20 million people (and they even will get some PAX from NL, LUX, Eastern Germany... granted a lot of NRW pax also use FRA).

Berlin has 3.5 million people and then it is the countryside. This is quite an exceptional situation in Germany which overall is quite a dense country. If Berlin would have such an enormous regional catchment area and a decent airport like DUS, things would be very different.
Last edited by SCQ83 on Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:49 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
It is funny ever since this thread started a couple of weeks ago, 4 new TATL routes have been announced for Berlin: Boston (PF), Newark (PF), Philadelphia (AA) and Toronto (PF).


One, Philadelphia. You are confusing Berlin with Brussels.
a.
 
fraT
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:52 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
It is funny ever since this thread started a couple of weeks ago, 4 new TATL routes have been announced for Berlin: Boston (PF), Newark (PF), Philadelphia (AA) and Toronto (PF).


One, Philadelphia. You are confusing Berlin with Brussels.


Not really. See the Primera news
 
panamair
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:29 pm

The schedules for the S19 TATL services to/from TXL so far (PF hasn't loaded their schedules yet)

TXL Arrivals

UA0962 0750 EWR 764 Daily
AA0064 0835 PHL 763 TuThSaSu
AC1966 1030 YYZ 763 TuWeFrSu
DL0092 1100 JFK 763 Daily

TXL Departures

UA0963 0940 EWR 764 Daily
AA0065 1035 PHL 763 TuThSaSu
AC1967 1200 YYZ 763 TuWeFrSu
DL0093 1255 JFK 763 Daily

Should be interesting to see the gate situation. Currently UA and DL occupy the same gate (A01) as their schedules complement each other's (UA leaves TXL before DL arrives) and I don't know how AC (Rouge) is currently handled.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:54 pm

fraT wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
It is funny ever since this thread started a couple of weeks ago, 4 new TATL routes have been announced for Berlin: Boston (PF), Newark (PF), Philadelphia (AA) and Toronto (PF).


One, Philadelphia. You are confusing Berlin with Brussels.


Not really. See the Primera news


Ah, now I see. Well that'll last as long as Birmingham. Boston-Berlin? What a joke.
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DLHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:05 pm

@panamair

On the Primera Homepage youll see the schedules, flights leaving TXL in the evening past 6PM.
American most likely ends up on a remote position.
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NickolayAv
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:20 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
fraT wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

One, Philadelphia. You are confusing Berlin with Brussels.


Not really. See the Primera news


Ah, now I see. Well that'll last as long as Birmingham. Boston-Berlin? What a joke.

Questionable. Unlike the other routes, the airline has no competition on the route to Boston. When AirBerlin operated BOS-DUS, they did just fine with 83% year-round load factors. This shows BOS is a big enough market to handle 3 destinations in Germany (in addition to MUC and FRA on LH), and this is less capacity than BOS-DUS when it was served by airberlin. Additionally, this is probably the best airline to start such a route, because traffic to Berlin is mostly millennial tourists, a low-cost airline and on a small plane is better for the market than a legacy airline attempting it with a large plane and full service. Time will tell, but I think this route will do just fine.
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PanHAM
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Re: Trans-Atlantic Berlin

Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:51 pm

Primera intends to Station 2 737MAX at TXL and uses both for 7 weekly return flights each. Faily to JFK and the other destinations get 3/4 flights. I woukd call that challenging.
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