I was told by a source who works at BDL that LH reps were at BDL last week.... is this a sign that LH could open FRA-BDL with another incentive-laden deal like what was done with EI to start DUB?

I would think LH could make it happen with a 321neo once they get them?

Anyone know any scoop if this a possibility for BDL?

Long shot IMO, I would expect BA before any other foreign carrier and someone like DL to try AMS or CDG before LH.

Could the A321NEO even fly this route without weight restrictions?

^^ for long shot. Might just be discussion.

LH opened some "2nd tier" cities in NA in recent years which turned out to be good additions to their already quite extensive NA network (TPA, SAN, SJC).
Moreover, if you count only one hub destinations, the max. amount of frequencies is two daily flights (e.g. JFK, LAX, ORD, SFO). They rather go for network coverage starting with a few frequencies per week and evolving to daily operations.
BDL being located right in the middle of NYC and BOS is an interesting destination, but not unlikely nor a long shot if you ask me. They could easily test the waters with 3x weekly and rather short flights flown with spare capacities.
More distant cities and the usual a.net candidates (AUS, PHX, PDX, MSP) are not as easy as the North East with one frame.

Are they sure it wasn’t condor? That would be much more plausible scenario. EI seems to be gaining momentum but still requires the full subsidy and if fares are any indication, struggles in the off season.

i doubt this happens, but then again maybe governor malloy (who i actually view favorably overall) will give LH a massive incentive package on his way out of office. he's been a proponent of subsidizing new BDL routes throughout his time as governor.

i agree that condor seems more likely.

Airlines visit with many cities a year. PDX had reps from VS a couple of years ago & we got a DL seasonal flight to LHR.

LH may meet with airport managers constantly, cultivating relationships, even if they have no immediate plans of service. In my years in this industry, good, friendly relationships are the viscous grease that keeps palms oiled & deals, private & seemingly arbitrary from the outside.

FRA-BDL makes zero sense with current equipment, and if some over the top stupid governor is offering subsidies for it he should be chased out of office and out of town by an angry mob. Since Malloy has a 21% approval rating, I am sure he is trying to conquer the crown of least popular governor ever.

Maybe on behalf of Eurowings for a seasonal service?

There is definitely some "eagerness" in this thread, however it isn't happening. LH has met with smaller airports like IND and CLE in recent years as well, meaning that I think many are reading too much into this rumor.

OSL777FLYER wrote:

Maybe on behalf of Eurowings for a seasonal service?

This is also my assumption: If there is interest to bring additional flights in this area, Eurowings is the brand which makes sense - in te middle of everything and together with tour Operators for some Boston/ NYC, even Washington roundtrips.

But who knows.

Flyglobal

aviationaware wrote:

FRA-BDL makes zero sense with current equipment

The last three words being key.

Doesn't LH have A321LRs on order though? That might actually be an interesting service, considering the banking on both ends.

I don’t see Lufthansa operating the route itself. The A330-300 seems like too much plane and the A321neo is not a plane that Lufthansa will deploy TATL. From what I understand, the configuration will be your current Euroconfig and I believe that it would be impossible to sustainably run that flight without proper Business or at least Premium Economy.
With Eurowings, it would fit perfectly into their portfolio given that they also wanted more slots at JFK for TXL. I would be surprised though if LH management as opposed to EW was on the ground making the deals. So if anything, I think we might be looking at EW with the main question being which base they would operate from. DUS wouldn’t make too much sense with all the new JFK flights, TXL might make sense but then again in summer there’s UA to EWR and DL to JFK which might be overkill and the fact that they don’t currently operate long haul ex Berlin, lastly there’s Munich which in my opinion would have everything to make that route work.

LAX772LR wrote:

Doesn't LH have A321LRs on order though? That might actually be an interesting service, considering the banking on both ends.

Not to my knowledge, no. They are looking at it, but they haven't ordered any or converted orders so far. Also, there is no bank in BDL. BDL is no hub. There is no destination from BDL that's not also served (and with higher frequency) from other current LH destinations. CT has quite a few German companies, so there should be at least some O/D to work with:

- Boehringer Ingelheim (also based near FRA in Germany so a perfect match), but they are in Ridgefield which is halfway to New York City which makes the advantage or BDL less succint.
- Henkel in Rocky Hill is perfectly located
- Beiersdorf in Wilton (same problem as Boehringer, it's on the border to New York
- MTU is also located in Rocky Hill
- Schaeffler has a location in Danbury, but they also have business in Pennsylvania so I am not sure how much a BDL connection would be worth to them
- There is also a Siemens location in a Hartford suburb, but I am not sure how big that is

An A321LR could work, but certainly no widebody.

No way this happens any time soon. With what equipment? LH birds are too big and too premium heavy for this route.

While it is true that LH has entered smaller US markets lately, those "smaller" markets are still more than twice as large as BDL, and have far more European demand -- thy work precisely because they have that EU demand to offset the size of the local market.

Midwestindy wrote:

There is definitely some "eagerness" in this thread, however it isn't happening. LH has met with smaller airports like IND and CLE in recent years as well, meaning that I think many are reading too much into this rumor.

I would agree that this is just a rumor. All you have to do is look at the U.S. routes LH flies. They just don't serve destinations like BDL, IND or CLE.

RL757PVD wrote:

Are they sure it wasn’t condor? That would be much more plausible scenario. EI seems to be gaining momentum but still requires the full subsidy and if fares are any indication, struggles in the off season.

I'd bet on Aer Lingus tapping that subsidy in every way they can until it runs out, it's a cherry on top.

As for the performance of the route, like most of the east coast it does appear weak in winter but thrives in summer. In June 2018 there were over 10,000 on the route, the best month so far and puts the load factor in the high 90s as you'd expect this time of year. Hopefully this means as the route matures we'll see the stronger summers off set the slightly weaker winters.

Don't think you'd see LH in BDL, MAYBE BA, but not LH.

LH runs a lot of flights from BOS, JFK and EWR to FRA. Starting up BDL will suck some of their own business away, but how much vs. DL's etc? Doubt they will take much from SIA with a puny 320.

There are rumors that Allianz is considering acquiring The Hartford. MUC-BDL is 3,422 nm.

The more I hear, the more I believe that if anything we're looking at 2-3 times weekly (probably 257) Eurowings out of MUC on the A332 summer seasonal for starters.

LGAviation wrote:

The more I hear, the more I believe that if anything we're looking at 2-3 times weekly (probably 257) Eurowings out of MUC on the A332 summer seasonal for starters.

What makes you think that? Eurowings orimarily serves German-originating traffic. Why would anyone in Germany want to travel to BDL?

axiom wrote:

LGAviation wrote:

The more I hear, the more I believe that if anything we're looking at 2-3 times weekly (probably 257) Eurowings out of MUC on the A332 summer seasonal for starters.

What makes you think that? Eurowings orimarily serves German-originating traffic. Why would anyone in Germany want to travel to BDL?

Windsor Locks is a route that will be very tricky for Lufthansa.

As others have mentioned, there is business traffic between Connecticut and Germany that might fill up a small front cabin. There is however no considerable higher yielding traffic for the back cabin which might present a significant challenge for Lufthansa.

Their A330s are probably too costly for the mission, whereas their upcoming A321neos aren't LR and will, as I said before, probably be configured similarly to their current A321s making them unsuitable for intercontinental operations. In essence, Lufthansa does not have the equipment necessary for the job.

Eurowings on the other hand wanted to expand further into the NYC area but couldn't do so due to a lack of daytime slots JFK. Windsor Locks might present a solution for this problem: In Summer, there is a huge number of German tourists going to the Northeast and many of them will rent a car either way and probably won't mind that airport too much if they market it Ryanair style. At DUS, EW already deploys 340s with BizClass and I think that they or reconfigured 332s might do the job at BDL with that tourist cabin in the back which in summer isn't too low-yielding supporting the front cabin. Business folks won't mind EW too much since it will be the only direct option and I think if they are the only carrier aside from EI, they might also draw some Americans.
The flight would however need to be to Munich to enable connections and also serve the business community which is contrary to last year's attempts to add JFK-TXL service.

Didn't eurowings fail at BOS-DUS after one year of operation? The unsustainable low fares on that route was the murder-suicide for DE's PVD-FRA

There have been a number of carriers shopping around second tier cities for use as diversion points. The northeast has become so congested that IROPS in the area are becoming a real problem. I have had discussions with 5 carriers in the past couple of months regarding this very issue. Could be that or it could be something else entirely.

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

I will add that in SAN, LH rumors and 'visitations' by confirmed LH staff went on for years.

This year, we (finally) have scheduled service to FRA on the carrier! (In fact, last year we received service to ZRH on Edelweiss, part of the LH group.)

Rarely, it all ends with a happy conclusion - service. The majority of the time, unfortunately, nothing ever comes of the rumors and visits. We would probably all be surprised to learn of just how many U.S. cities LH has visited, even multiple times, in 2018. I would also expect the visits and negotiations, on average, go on for years before the first airplane ever touches down.

Good luck to Bradley Airport but I’m afraid there isn’t really a lot of basis to expect an announcement any time soon. Not yet.

bb

airbazar wrote:

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

LH have cancelled the contract and the Pune route is cancelled as far as I know so this is not going to be an option this time.

airbazar wrote:

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

MUC-BOS?
I thought CPH-BOS. When was MUC-BOS on a 737?

Condor seems more likely

NickolayAv wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

MUC-BOS?
I thought CPH-BOS. When was MUC-BOS on a 737?

Yes, LH had some "Private Jet" 737s from DUS to US destinations, as well.

LGAviation wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

LH have cancelled the contract and the Pune route is cancelled as far as I know so this is not going to be an option this time.

Yes, because there are rumours of PV having problems, hence LH cancelling the contract. Is there any other operator around operating aircraft in similar configuration like PV?

aviationaware wrote:

Also, there is no bank in BDL. BDL is no hub. There is no destination from BDL that's not also served (and with higher frequency) from other current LH destinations. CT has quite a few German companies, so there should be at least some O/D to work with

Specifically in Windsor Locks, no... but there's nearly a dozen banks with multi-billions in managed assets whose HQs are more-or-less equidistant between NYC and BDL. But more importantly, there's tons of regional offices for major hedge funds in Connecticut, IINM second only to NYC and SFO. That's more what I was speaking of.

NickolayAv wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The only way you'll see a "LH" flight to BDL is if it's this:
https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... sa-20c-66y
Believe it or not that was how MUC-BOS got started

MUC-BOS?
I thought CPH-BOS. When was MUC-BOS on a 737?

It was used the first year of MUC operations while the route was still seasonal. I believe it was brought back a year or two later for the winter when they decided to make the route year-round (the summer service was on an Airbus by that point) before becoming wide body year-round.

LH423

LAX772LR wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

Also, there is no bank in BDL. BDL is no hub. There is no destination from BDL that's not also served (and with higher frequency) from other current LH destinations. CT has quite a few German companies, so there should be at least some O/D to work with

Specifically in Windsor Locks, no... but there's nearly a dozen banks with multi-billions in managed assets whose HQs are more-or-less equidistant between NYC and BDL. But more importantly, there's tons of regional offices for major hedge funds in Connecticut, IINM second only to NYC and SFO. That's more what I was speaking of.

Lol my bad, I thought you were talking departure banks :p

I expect AUS, PDX, CLT (from FRA), and others before BDL

BDL being sandwiched between JFK and BOS makes it unattractive for foreign airlines to consider BDL for non-stop flights to Europe. I have used JFK many times and even though BDL is closer, the number of airlines, frequencies and prices are some of the things that BDL will never be able to offer. I expect PVD to be in better position for new service to Europe, it being right off I-95, having a much larger population base to draw from and its runway just recently extended.

LAX772LR wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

Also, there is no bank in BDL. BDL is no hub. There is no destination from BDL that's not also served (and with higher frequency) from other current LH destinations. CT has quite a few German companies, so there should be at least some O/D to work with

Specifically in Windsor Locks, no... but there's nearly a dozen banks with multi-billions in managed assets whose HQs are more-or-less equidistant between NYC and BDL. But more importantly, there's tons of regional offices for major hedge funds in Connecticut, IINM second only to NYC and SFO. That's more what I was speaking of.

They really aren’t equidistant from NYC and Boston though. Most, if not all, of the hedge fund traffic is going to reside in Fairfield County, and its easier to fly out of NYC. Yes there is insurance in Hartford, but I think we seem to overestimate how much traffic they are really driving.

jetblueguy22 wrote:

Yes there is insurance in Hartford, but I think we seem to overestimate how much traffic they are really driving.

Wasn't just us... Northwest, extremely conservative about adding TATL, targeted that traffic when they launched TATL from BDL.

Granted, that flight was introduced just before the 2008-2009 financial crisis tore the banking industry (and overall economy) to shreds, and likely was a casualty thereof. Would've been interesting to see how well it'd do today.

LAX772LR wrote:

jetblueguy22 wrote:

Yes there is insurance in Hartford, but I think we seem to overestimate how much traffic they are really driving.

Wasn't just us... Northwest, extremely conservative about adding TATL, targeted that traffic when they launched TATL from BDL.

Granted, that flight was introduced just before the 2008-2009 financial crisis tore the banking industry (and overall economy) to shreds, and likely was a casualty thereof. Would've been interesting to see how well it'd do today.

AMS-BDL wasn't a bad idea as one of the largest Dutch insurance companies had an US subsidiary which had its HQ in Hartford. They were very happy with AMS - BDL. Moreover, the insurance company was part of a financial conglomerate which had a large bank with big presence in the US through its NY office. For those travelling to NY, AMS - BDL was a guaranteed seat (and due to the corporate contract it was cheap as well). After the financial crisis the Dutch insurance company sold its US subsidiary.

LAX772LR wrote:

...[Would've been interesting to see how well it'd do today.

No doubt there is a certain demand for a travel scheme between points in Europe and a point in Connecticut - BDL, that is. There are JFK haters residing in New York's luxury outskirts. Maybe some of them would pay a premium to avoid the madness of driving through that cesspool. Then, United Technologies might buy a few tickets from time to time because 1/6 of their aeroengine business is beiing executed in Munich.And all those insurance companies definitely will generate a certain travel demand: their top three re-insureance counterparts are Munich Re, Swiss Re and Hannover Re/Rück. Lloyd's ranks number five.

As others have noted before, there are many small crumbles that theoretically could make up a heavy cake. I believe any BDL to Europe route should start with at least 12 weekly flights. Arriving and departing in Europe in the morning as well as after Noon.
SkyTeam or Star Alliance could make it work if any of them really dared.

I suspect Henkel (whose US bases are located in Stamford, Trumbull, and Rocky Hill, Connecticut - it moved its US headquarters from Arizona to Connecticut last year) is the company pushing for this route (its world headquarters are in Dusseldorf). Rocky Hill is 25 minutes from BDL. I don't believe they would be pushing for a FRA-BDL route, but more likely a DUS-BDL route, which would require Eurowings with business class. This is also where Lufthansa has said it wants a narrow-body plane with longer range (in the event of a diversion) that can fly FRA or MUC to JFK or EWR with an acceptable diversion, likely PHL (such could also allow Lufthansa to resume a route like BER-JFK). Airbus would likely have to add range to the A321LR, already stretched, or Boeing would need an adequate MOM plane, to meet Lufthansa's specifications. Henkel likely is what allows DUS-JFK to exist with a proper J class. With a narrow body plane that could go from Germany to JFK, Germany to JFK from thinner destinations could be run daily year-round (and service to BDL could run 5x weekly in summer, 3x weekly in winter).

It's not a huge company, but LEGO's US offices are also near BDL, with the global headquarters in Denmark (BLL), so that would likely drive some BDL-FRA(-BLL) traffic as well. Not enough to warrant an entire flight, by any means, but it would certainly help.

There is quite a bit of PW and UTC traffic to Germany and Poland.

A few companies here and there are not going to cut it. Look at the huge O&D that supports JFK and BOS, the plethora of world headquarters and giant companies that are New York and Boston. The immediate area around BDL consists of tobacco fields, now compare that to JFK and BOS and it becomes evident for the choice of airlines, non-stop flights and a wide assortment of fares, JFK and BOS cannot be beat.

This reminds of the "rumor" of AF starting up MSY when they visited the airport board and city a few years back. As expected, nothing came of those meetings. It's quite common for airport and airline representatives to meet, but that doesn't mean a route will actually start.

RL757PVD wrote:

Didn't eurowings fail at BOS-DUS after one year of operation? The unsustainable low fares on that route was the murder-suicide for DE's PVD-FRA

Yes, and at the time BOS had n/s service to DUS, MUC & FRA. Look at the cities EW added after BOS - MCO, LAS, SEA - I could be mistaken but none of them have/had services to MUC or DUS from them, so naturally EW would have done better.

PVD didn't lose DE because of BOS, PVD lost it because it can't support many services to Europe outside of Ireland. D8 is dropping routes because they can't even fill a 737 to a couple cities in Europe from PVD.

I am a bit doubtful regarding DE getting involved (at least at this moment) - despite there´s something going on between Thomas Cook and Lufthansa because TC is planning to get rid of all their own airlines (TC needs cash as debts continue rising).
Rumours are that LH and TC are in negotiations over DE.
I don´t see EW operating A330´s between DUS and BDL for pax only - that would be plain overkill - but some cargo would help on revenue ...
Doesn´t LH Cargo operate into BDL already ??? A possible combi of cargo and pax usually changes the picture ...

Can’t the airport and state just let the EI route mature before introducing subsidised competition that will result in everyone losing money - just like Norwegian last year.

Eurowings would make even less sense than Lufthansa.

Lufthansa could at least connect in FRA/MUC, but Eurowings? EW is all about large O&D German holiday volume (e.g. DUS-JFK, DUS-MIA). Who the hell in Nordrhein-Westfalen would go on holiday to Hartford, CT? They could not even sustain flights to Boston.

The only remote possibility would be Condor on a seasonal connected to some German tour operator (e.g. sell some New England package starting in BDL like they did in the past with PVD). They serve some odd destinations in North America, so why not.