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readytotaxi
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Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:29 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45139077

"The 24-hour walk-out involves staff in Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands. About 50,000 passengers are understood to have been told of cancellations on 400 flights."

Not a good day to fly with them, disruption and rebooking must be awful.
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787Driver
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:47 am

Ryanair management can thank themselves for this one
 
evomutant
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:30 am

Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?
 
DALCE
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:21 pm

Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?
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Aesma
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:30 pm

DALCE I wondered the same thing, but we know that many pilots do in fact leave FR. Those that stay might find there are good reasons to stay, keeping seniority, might have bought a house near an FR base, etc.
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Varsity1
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:31 pm

DALCE wrote:
Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?


And start over at the bottom? Move to a difference city or country? It's unpractical.

Why can't ryanair pay normal wages?

EDIT: truth be told they are leaving. FR's shortage of pilots has been caused by Norwegian's poaching. Norwegian pays normal wages.
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evomutant
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:34 pm

DALCE wrote:
Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?


All in the same sewer.

BA Cityflyer have a Direct Entry scheme (Left and RIght seat) open at the moment. They want you to pay them £250 for the honour of an interview.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:53 pm

evomutant wrote:
DALCE wrote:
Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?


All in the same sewer.

BA Cityflyer have a Direct Entry scheme (Left and RIght seat) open at the moment. They want you to pay them £250 for the honour of an interview.

Really, £250 to get an interview??????
That's insulting !
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Someone83
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:56 pm

evomutant wrote:
Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?


Strikes are defined as out of the companys control, and are not liable for compensation according to EU261. However, they still have to provide care, although not sure they actually do
 
n6238p
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:58 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
evomutant wrote:
DALCE wrote:
Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?


All in the same sewer.

BA Cityflyer have a Direct Entry scheme (Left and RIght seat) open at the moment. They want you to pay them £250 for the honour of an interview.

Really, £250 to get an interview??????
That's insulting !


I don't think you understand the scam that is the pilot career fairs in the United States. You pay hundreds of dollars to buy a ticket to a fair and maybe get a slot to talk to airline recruiters to see if you even qualify to get a major airline interview. Some airlines used to even add points to your resume based on how many career fairs you've attended. The majors are slightly getting away from these practices but this was the norm for the last half decade or so.
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mmo
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:15 pm

Someone83 wrote:
evomutant wrote:
Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?


Strikes are defined as out of the companys control, and are not liable for compensation according to EU261. However, they still have to provide care, although not sure they actually do


Actually, it is the opposite. There is case law supporting the compensation as a result of strikes. FR has pretty much thumbed their nose at EU261 and are doing what they want to. For instance, for instance, not advising passengers they have the right to be booked on other carriers at FR's expense. FR is only advising a refund o rebooking on FR which is counter to EU261 legislation.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:33 am

DALCE wrote:
Why don't these pilots just leave FR? I mean, I fully understand their situation and back their decision to call strikes, but with all the shortages in the current Aviation Environment it would not be too hard to find a place as F/O or Captain with a better company than FR would it?


Because that's not as easy as you make it sound. There's not a pilot shortage yet. It's predicted for the coming years, but as of now it's still hard for a pilot to find a job. Not as hard as a few years ago, but not easy either.

I too back their decision to strike, they deserve far better than they get and I got no doubts Ryanair can pay that. It's only a matter of time before they give in. The situation is changing and unless Ryanair changes with it, in a few years when there really will be a pilot shortage Ryanair will be the first airline to suffer from it. Until now pilots came naturally for Ryanair, then they won't. They'll really need to offer them something.
 
flyaustralian12
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:51 am

evomutant wrote:
Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?
wow how dumb are these pilots ? With the world slipping into massive recession, these pilots will be the 1st ones laid off. They should look at Australian pilots dispute back in 1989 I think it was. Those that striked had to go & find jobs overseas.

Compensation ? From who ? Pilots ?
 
Dogbreath
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:11 am

flyaustralian12 wrote:
evomutant wrote:
Compensation ? From who ? Pilots ?


Things are done differently over here in Europe. Do a simple Google search of 'EU261' to under the compensation rules for passengers.

Why does everyone think that the Pilots are striking over money? For the Cabin Crew that are striking, yes money is the main driver, but for Pilots it's about terms and conditions.
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a320fan
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:20 am

flyaustralian12 wrote:
evomutant wrote:
Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?
wow how dumb are these pilots ? With the world slipping into massive recession, these pilots will be the 1st ones laid off. They should look at Australian pilots dispute back in 1989 I think it was. Those that striked had to go & find jobs overseas.

Compensation ? From who ? Pilots ?

I really don’t think you understand this situation nor the comment you’re replying too.
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leghorn
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 am

Issues are different in different Countries. German strike action is the one which is most worrying as it appears Vereinigung Cockpit seem to be agitating. German direct employed pilot % went from around 50 to over 80% when Ryanair decided to address their staff retention problems by offering contractors permanent positions and committing to increase pay by 20%.
Within the space of a few months of these changes VC are organising full-blown strikes and the Workers Council(Betriebsrat) which is a core element of the German Industrial Relations apparatus appear to be completely out of the loop and they've now moved direct to Strikes where the Betreibsrat aren't involved as they can't/don't call strikes.

Having seen how Ver.Di and IG-metall unions have tried to agitate in my own Company to take control of the Betriebsrat I can see there is something going on here which might not necessarily be to the benefit of the employees but the Pilots are free to chose their own representation so it is up to them and not me to critically question how their Industrial Disputes are resolved.

BTW The cabin crew aren't the ones who are driving these strike actions and they are the ones who need better working conditions right now.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:35 pm

leghorn wrote:
Issues are different in different Countries. German strike action is the one which is most worrying as it appears Vereinigung Cockpit seem to be agitating. German direct employed pilot % went from around 50 to over 80% when Ryanair decided to address their staff retention problems by offering contractors permanent positions and committing to increase pay by 20%.
Within the space of a few months of these changes VC are organising full-blown strikes and the Workers Council(Betriebsrat) which is a core element of the German Industrial Relations apparatus appear to be completely out of the loop and they've now moved direct to Strikes where the Betreibsrat aren't involved as they can't/don't call strikes.

Having seen how Ver.Di and IG-metall unions have tried to agitate in my own Company to take control of the Betriebsrat I can see there is something going on here which might not necessarily be to the benefit of the employees but the Pilots are free to chose their own representation so it is up to them and not me to critically question how their Industrial Disputes are resolved.

BTW The cabin crew aren't the ones who are driving these strike actions and they are the ones who need better working conditions right now.

Yea... Having too many contract pilots for too long would create a pool over eager to strike,

I'm a Capitalist, but these employee relations are the work of assuming there would always be a large pool of pilots available. Now that we honestly have a shortage, it is a few years too late the mend ties. So while this might not be the most justified strike, it is for prior angst IMHO.

This is interesting to say the least...

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Galwayman
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:13 pm

The pilots clearly don’t care about the passengers or the company

Biggest mistake O’Leary ever made , recognising unions

The pilots won’t leave , they’ll just stay and destroy the airline from within

Willie Walsh and that guy in Qantas would just crush the trouble makers already
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:26 pm

Galwayman wrote:
The pilots clearly don’t care about the passengers or the company

Biggest mistake O’Leary ever made , recognising unions

The pilots won’t leave , they’ll just stay and destroy the airline from within

Willie Walsh and that guy in Qantas would just crush the trouble makers already


In the airline industry, things are “a little” more complex than just “crush the trouble makers”...
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Aisak
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:36 pm

flyaustralian12 wrote:
evomutant wrote:
Are they still trying to claim that it is out of their control and thus they are not liable for compensation, or have they given up that ruse?
wow how dumb are these pilots ? With the world slipping into massive recession, these pilots will be the 1st ones laid off. They should look at Australian pilots dispute back in 1989 I think it was. Those that striked had to go & find jobs overseas.

Compensation ? From who ? Pilots ?

And that’s a good reason to seek employment under your country’s law and not Ireland’s.

When a crew member (cockpit or cabin) is assigned to let’s say Gran Canaria base, Ryanair cannot say the work is being carried out on Ireland’s soil. The company requires you to be at Gran Canaria Airport for duty, not in Ireland. That should be a Spanish job paying Social Security, taxes, health an unemployment in Spain. When a pilot/cabin crew is sick and needs some days off, he needs to see a doctor in the Canaries, not Ireland. If he slips climbing the stairs to the aircraft, the medical aid and the temporary incapacitated insurance need to be the Spanish ones not Ireland’s. When he is fired it’s the Spanish unemployment aid that should be triggered.

That would also end the fear messages sent by the company. “Do as I say or else” even if “As I say” it’s completely ilegal”. Threaten an employee with relocation would not be possible anymore as it would require signing another contract from another country. “Get a life in Warsaw by next month” would no longer be possible. And that’s being used by the company even if your original job position is not altered.

And don’t get me started with outsourcing or self-employment. If Ryanair need 24 pilots to fly 1 plane, they should HIRE 24 pilots. Same with cabin crew as there should be ALWAYS 4 cabin crew on EVERY flight. You have to EMPLOY (not contract) enough people to crew YOUR flights. How Irish authorities allow Ryanair to employ less people than needed is just beyond my understandings...

I thing those demands are not that hard to understand.... Well, for some people in Dublin, it seems it is.... and around Europe some passengers seem to support those illegal procedures as long as the flights are 10€ cheaper. That way the company can treat everyone like trash ( pax and workforce) should anything doesn’t turn out like planned...
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:48 pm

Galwayman wrote:
The pilots clearly don’t care about the passengers or the company

Biggest mistake O’Leary ever made , recognising unions

The pilots won’t leave , they’ll just stay and destroy the airline from within

Willie Walsh and that guy in Qantas would just crush the trouble makers already


How do you expect the pilots to care about the airline if the airline doesn't care about them? It works both ways. Ryanair treats their employees like shit. They just come up for their rights.

Believe me when I say they don't want to destroy Ryanair, but neither will they let Ryanair destroy them. They want to work for their money, but they want to work for descent money. The money Ryanair is paying them is not descent. Ryanair is squeezing them out in every possible way. A good self-respecting airline doesn't do that.

IAG and Qantas both threat their employees a whole lot better than Ryanair, both recognize unions and work with them. They always have.

Crushing the troublemakers as you call it is one of the reasons employees got unions. To show their employer that they stand together, they won't let them crush one individual. A strike against one is a strike against all, and as an employer you don't want that. Unions are a basic right for employees to have.

Even EasyJet, their biggest rival, recognises unions. Here in the Netherlands we've had EasyJet strikes in the past as they didn't recognise unions back then. The strikes forced them to give in, to recognise the unions. From that moment on, everything went smooth. So smooth that EasyJet itself was surprised by it. They pay their employees by the agreements made with the unions and there hasn't been a single strike or even threat of a strike ever since.

Ryanair pilots should have the same rights as EasyJet pilots, KLM pilots, Lufthansa pilots, etc. They all got unions making the agreements for them. But Ryanair thought they could be cheaper, now they're paying the price of wanting to be cheaper.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:16 pm

Galwayman wrote:
The pilots clearly don’t care about the passengers or the company

Biggest mistake O’Leary ever made , recognising unions

The pilots won’t leave , they’ll just stay and destroy the airline from within

Willie Walsh and that guy in Qantas would just crush the trouble makers already

The Ryanair propaganda machine got you hook, line, and sinker.

Willie Walsh and "that guy from Qantas" aka fellow Irishman Alan Joyce both dealt with unions in their own ways and neither was painless, quite the opposite but they did manage to solve the issues not by crushing the "trouble makers" but my talking, and above all managing the situations. What has Michael O'Leary done? Accused Aer Lingus pilots of sabotage, called their own pilots liars and refuse to talk without conditions.

Ryanair has thirved on a divide and conquer basis, everyone on different terms, moving anyone who speaks out and suppressing any kind of groups from forming. Only fraction of the people we see in Ryanair uniforms are directly employed by the airline itself, there is huge inequality that needs addressing.

Ryanair isn't going anywhere and can more than afford a peaceful, fair future with its staff. It's in the interests of everyone.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair strike 10AUG18 pilots walk out.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:09 pm

Aisak wrote:
And don’t get me started with outsourcing or self-employment. If Ryanair need 24 pilots to fly 1 plane, they should HIRE 24 pilots. Same with cabin crew as there should be ALWAYS 4 cabin crew on EVERY flight. You have to EMPLOY (not contract) enough people to crew YOUR flights. How Irish authorities allow Ryanair to employ less people than needed is just beyond my understandings...

A workforce in a service delivery area(yes, pilots deliver a service)should be around 75 to 80% permanent, not 100% Without flexibility in a downturn the permanent workers payroll costs will drag the company down and the company isn't ready for the next upswing. If Ryanair get to 75 to 80% permanent then Pilots will not be complaining about contracting and the focus will be elsewhere. Any reasonable Company and any reasonable Union would be perfectly happy with that balance as it protects jobs.

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