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Zoedyn
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Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 pm

This report Taoyuan airport not a competitive transit hub raises an interesting issue over the competitiveness of Taiwan’s Taoyuan Airport as a transit hub

A report by Taiwan’s Audit Office has found that transit traffic at TPE has not been growing as fast as desired, esp in comparison with other major airports in the region, rising minimally from 9.48% in 2014 to 10.98% in 2017, despite the government's goal to turn TPE into a major transfer hub in East Asia

Comparatively, in terms of transit traffic in 2016, TPE’s growth rate was 10.55%
HKG 29.5%
SIN 26.7%
BKK 24.8%
NRT 22.5%
ICN 17%
PEK 10%

Capacity constraint has been cited as one major block that hinders transit traffic growth at TPE, whose 3rd terminal is still under construction and won’t be available for use until 2023

Apart from improving its hardware facilities, expanding its flight and passenger capacity, and increasing its flight destinations, as recommended in the report, Taiwan surely could do way more, esp politically, to bolster TPE as a significant transit hub
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:01 am

Isn't the main issue that PRC citizens cannot transit through Taiwan, making it hard for TPE to build the critical mass - with that market segment - that other hubs in the area can? That's not going to change at any point soon.

Cheers,

C.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 am

Esp. when the competition is ICN and HKG.
 
raylee67
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 am

It's more complicated than that... And I think if they break down the growth at TPE to more detailed numbers, it would be even worse. The growth is most likely driven by traffic within northeast Asia AND by LCCs such as Tiger, AirAsia and Vanilla/Peach, etc.

In summary, I can see three reasons:
1. Lack of high yield O&D traffic compare to neighbors
2. Lack of high volume O&D traffic compare to neighbors
3. Lack of connection traffic by Chinese travelers

Let's start with number 1. Taiwan's economy is not competitive and has hardly grown compare to neighboring countries. South Korea and Taiwan started out at about the same line in the 1980s, focusing in technology products and manufacturing. Now Korean products and brands are household names around the world (Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Kia, etc.), but Taiwan is stuck with the old model of being a OEM manufacturer. There are successful companies such as Taiwan Semiconductor and Foxconn, but they did not vertically integrate and expand their horizons. And then the K-POP thing brings Korea to the world. All these increased high yield traffic to ICN, enabling ICN to provide better and more frequent services to more places in the world, thereby attracting more connection traffic. On the other hand, with British style rule-of-law and proficient English literacy, Hong Kong and Singapore are firmly entrenched as the financial hubs of Asia, building lucrative high yield traffic to places like NY, LA, London, Frankfurt, Zurich and Sydney, etc. And Taipei has none of that. BR and CI constantly have to offer much lower prices to attract connection traffic to fill the planes, despite having comparable service level as KE, CX or SQ.

For number 2, due to much lower economic growth (you can look up per-capita GDP and per-capita personal income data yourself) in Taiwan than its neighbor, on average, Taiwanese is less wealthy to afford long range travel to exotic places. ICN and HKG can support regular services to places like Zagreb or Venice or Fiji or Maldives or Cape Town or Barcelona because local population can afford to travel to those places more frequently. The airline fill 50% of the plane with locals, and it's not difficult to fill the rest with connection traffic. But if you can't fill the 50% with locals, you can't be profitable with only 50% of your plane with entirely connection traffic. This is another chicken-and-egg problem: not enough local passengers -> cannot support more destinations -> drives down connection traffic -> can support even less destinations. Thais are not rich as well in general, but BKK is growing well. Because Thailand itself is the destination of everyone in the world, but Taiwan does not enjoy such prestige as a tourist destination. While the lack of nice beaches is one reason, its lack of depth in terms of what a tourist can do is another, and more seriously, its population's lack of English skills is a problem for Taiwan to attract high yield tourists from Europe or US. So it gets a lot of tourists from China, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong, but that's it. No other tourist demands, then no flights to other places.

Another unique situation for HKG and SIN is that they have huge expat populations working in high-income industries (such as financials, pharma and energy), and when those expats travel back home for holiday typically once or twice a year (to UK, Europe, Australia and US, etc.), that traffic is both high-volume and high-yield, providing again another cushion for airlines at HKG and SIN to serve more long range destinations at higher frequency.

And then number 3 is unique to Taiwan. Due to its well known political situation, Chinese would not connect thru TPE. But they are the ones driving the explosive growth of connection traffic, especially at ICN and HKG, and to some extent, NRT and BKK. You take them out of the stat, the growth at those airports are much less impressive. Before the political situation is resolved, Taiwan's hope/dream to be the hub of traffic in Asia will remain a dream, simply because you cannot exclude 70% of the population of your catchment area when you want to be the hub.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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Jouhou
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:42 am

Personally, I love TPE. And yes, I think HKG hogs a lot of transit traffic for the area with easy access to and from HKG from most destinations, unlike TPE and its cross straits limitations.
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:22 pm

Easy place to connect. Efficient airport. I like both EVA and China Airlines. China Airlines is underrated From NOrth America a great connection point to Asia, however not enough routes from North America, SEA, YVR, SFO, LAX, ONT, IAH, ORD, JFK is about it. Would be nice to see DL deepen relationship with China Airlines and then maybe add, ATL and DTW, but unlikely with Korean and China Eastern relationships.
 
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cosyr
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:52 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
This report Taoyuan airport not a competitive transit hub raises an interesting issue over the competitiveness of Taiwan’s Taoyuan Airport as a transit hub

A report by Taiwan’s Audit Office has found that transit traffic at TPE has not been growing as fast as desired, esp in comparison with other major airports in the region, rising minimally from 9.48% in 2014 to 10.98% in 2017, despite the government's goal to turn TPE into a major transfer hub in East Asia

Comparatively, in terms of transit traffic in 2016, TPE’s growth rate was 10.55%
HKG 29.5%
SIN 26.7%
BKK 24.8%
NRT 22.5%
ICN 17%
PEK 10%

Capacity constraint has been cited as one major block that hinders transit traffic growth at TPE, whose 3rd terminal is still under construction and won’t be available for use until 2023

Apart from improving its hardware facilities, expanding its flight and passenger capacity, and increasing its flight destinations, as recommended in the report, Taiwan surely could do way more, esp politically, to bolster TPE as a significant transit hub

Having just changed planes in PVG, HKG, BKK and TPE this month, TPE was the 2nd easiest after HKG. That is just from a passenger perspective, not any other political factor, although the difficult political rules are what made PVG the hardest airport to change planes. So hard in fact, that because we were not allowed to check bags through, and with China's molasses slow customs agents meant we missed our connection to BKK. Although fairly easy, I did find TPE the roughest airport of the 4 style wise. Even PVG was much more pleasant to wait in. TPE was just older, fewer windows, less seating, and less enticing lounges (although I didn't get to try the Garden or the Club. Infinity was fine, but on the level of a US club. I've come to expect more from international airports.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:41 pm

raylee67 wrote:
For number 2, due to much lower economic growth (you can look up per-capita GDP and per-capita personal income data yourself) in Taiwan than its neighbor, on average, Taiwanese is less wealthy to afford long range travel to exotic places. ICN and HKG can support regular services to places like Zagreb or Venice or Fiji or Maldives or Cape Town or Barcelona because local population can afford to travel to those places more frequently. The airline fill 50% of the plane with locals, and it's not difficult to fill the rest with connection traffic. But if you can't fill the 50% with locals, you can't be profitable with only 50% of your plane with entirely connection traffic. This is another chicken-and-egg problem: not enough local passengers -> cannot support more destinations -> drives down connection traffic -> can support even less destinations. Thais are not rich as well in general, but BKK is growing well. Because Thailand itself is the destination of everyone in the world, but Taiwan does not enjoy such prestige as a tourist destination. While the lack of nice beaches is one reason, its lack of depth in terms of what a tourist can do is another, and more seriously, its population's lack of English skills is a problem for Taiwan to attract high yield tourists from Europe or US. So it gets a lot of tourists from China, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong, but that's it. No other tourist demands, then no flights to other places.


I don't know if it's just lack of English skills in Taiwan that's stopping tourists from Europe/US from visiting Taiwan. Rather, it's simply not well known as a tourism destination for "westerner" IMHO. Taiwan simply doesn't have an identity that make it stands out on a global level. Even the most ignorant person in the world would know about Great Wall (China), heard of Gangnam Style (S. Korea, part of the "Korean Wave" overall) or Samsung, have probably eaten Sushi (Japan) or seen pictures of seemingly futuristic Japanese cities, or heard of names like Jackie Chan and seen the skyline from Victoria Harbor (Hong Kong).

But I agree with your other point - the quickest growth in terms of air traffic in the region is mainland China, and TPE, due to its political cloud, simply has no method to capture a slice of that pie. That also means the like of BR/CI are highly limited as to how they can build their transit flow, i.e. mainly SE Asia to NE Asia (Japan/S. Korea) or N. America. An airline like QR can get away with minuscule local O&D demand by its geographic location that can capture multiple direction of traffic flow (i.e. AusNZ to Europe, East Asia to Africa/Europe, India to Europe/N. America, SE Asia to Europe, etc.), but not CI/BR.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Easy place to connect. Efficient airport. I like both EVA and China Airlines. China Airlines is underrated From NOrth America a great connection point to Asia, however not enough routes from North America, SEA, YVR, SFO, LAX, ONT, IAH, ORD, JFK is about it. Would be nice to see DL deepen relationship with China Airlines and then maybe add, ATL and DTW, but unlikely with Korean and China Eastern relationships.


Those airports captured most of the TPAC traffic anyway. For comparison, HKG has YVR and YYZ in Canada, and SFO, LAX, JFK/EWR, BOS, ORD, DFW (AA), and SEA, along with IAD soon in US. That's it, though. If TPE can get a BOS flight, they would be just as well covered to US as HKG is.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:42 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
This report Taoyuan airport not a competitive transit hub raises an interesting issue over the competitiveness of Taiwan’s Taoyuan Airport as a transit hub

A report by Taiwan’s Audit Office has found that transit traffic at TPE has not been growing as fast as desired, esp in comparison with other major airports in the region, rising minimally from 9.48% in 2014 to 10.98% in 2017, despite the government's goal to turn TPE into a major transfer hub in East Asia

I wonder if growth is a misleading statistic as BR/CI have long generated volumes of low yield connections, while CX/SQ/Chinese carriers are only recently starting to focus more on flow traffic.I'd say for the better part of a decade + BR/CI have been the lowest fares from North America to Asia, and only recently have mainland Chinese carriers started to undercut them.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:03 pm

Actually, I just found the original Chinese article:
https://udn.com/news/story/7266/3299245

Zoedyn wrote:
HKG 29.5%
SIN 26.7%
BKK 24.8%
NRT 22.5%
ICN 17%
PEK 10%


This number is actually referring to transit vs. O&D percentage, not growth rate (Thus, HKG is 70.5% O&D vs. 29.5% Transit, which is about the same as the number provided in the 2017 OAG study). In another word, in some sense, despite the "dream" of growing transit pax for no reason to make it a global hub, TPE simply remain mostly O&D.

To me, I just don't see anything wrong with that. If anything, from OAG's study, ICN has been going the other way for years (From 25% to 17% transit. Not surprisingly, they took quite a hit in terms of transit number from the fallout of the THAAD BS, meaning they lost quite a bit of mainland Chinese transit traffic).

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... b3a88feeeb

The only airport that seen a big jump in transit traffic is CAN anyway, due to CZ's focus on "Canton Route" (i.e. UK-Australia via CAN). For instance, HKG has stay steady at around 30% transit traffic for many years. The thing that's more important is total pax at the airport anyway, with TPE's growth at +6.1% being higher than, let say, HKG's +3.4%.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RMQFinn
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:07 pm

raylee67 wrote:
It's more complicated than that... And I think if they break down the growth at TPE to more detailed numbers, it would be even worse. The growth is most likely driven by traffic within northeast Asia AND by LCCs such as Tiger, AirAsia and Vanilla/Peach, etc.

In summary, I can see three reasons:
1. Lack of high yield O&D traffic compare to neighbors
2. Lack of high volume O&D traffic compare to neighbors
3. Lack of connection traffic by Chinese travelers

Let's start with number 1. Taiwan's economy is not competitive and has hardly grown compare to neighboring countries. South Korea and Taiwan started out at about the same line in the 1980s, focusing in technology products and manufacturing. Now Korean products and brands are household names around the world (Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Kia, etc.), but Taiwan is stuck with the old model of being a OEM manufacturer. There are successful companies such as Taiwan Semiconductor and Foxconn, but they did not vertically integrate and expand their horizons. And then the K-POP thing brings Korea to the world. All these increased high yield traffic to ICN, enabling ICN to provide better and more frequent services to more places in the world, thereby attracting more connection traffic. On the other hand, with British style rule-of-law and proficient English literacy, Hong Kong and Singapore are firmly entrenched as the financial hubs of Asia, building lucrative high yield traffic to places like NY, LA, London, Frankfurt, Zurich and Sydney, etc. And Taipei has none of that. BR and CI constantly have to offer much lower prices to attract connection traffic to fill the planes, despite having comparable service level as KE, CX or SQ.

For number 2, due to much lower economic growth (you can look up per-capita GDP and per-capita personal income data yourself) in Taiwan than its neighbor, on average, Taiwanese is less wealthy to afford long range travel to exotic places. ICN and HKG can support regular services to places like Zagreb or Venice or Fiji or Maldives or Cape Town or Barcelona because local population can afford to travel to those places more frequently. The airline fill 50% of the plane with locals, and it's not difficult to fill the rest with connection traffic. But if you can't fill the 50% with locals, you can't be profitable with only 50% of your plane with entirely connection traffic. This is another chicken-and-egg problem: not enough local passengers -> cannot support more destinations -> drives down connection traffic -> can support even less destinations. Thais are not rich as well in general, but BKK is growing well. Because Thailand itself is the destination of everyone in the world, but Taiwan does not enjoy such prestige as a tourist destination. While the lack of nice beaches is one reason, its lack of depth in terms of what a tourist can do is another, and more seriously, its population's lack of English skills is a problem for Taiwan to attract high yield tourists from Europe or US. So it gets a lot of tourists from China, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong, but that's it. No other tourist demands, then no flights to other places.

Another unique situation for HKG and SIN is that they have huge expat populations working in high-income industries (such as financials, pharma and energy), and when those expats travel back home for holiday typically once or twice a year (to UK, Europe, Australia and US, etc.), that traffic is both high-volume and high-yield, providing again another cushion for airlines at HKG and SIN to serve more long range destinations at higher frequency.

And then number 3 is unique to Taiwan. Due to its well known political situation, Chinese would not connect thru TPE. But they are the ones driving the explosive growth of connection traffic, especially at ICN and HKG, and to some extent, NRT and BKK. You take them out of the stat, the growth at those airports are much less impressive. Before the political situation is resolved, Taiwan's hope/dream to be the hub of traffic in Asia will remain a dream, simply because you cannot exclude 70% of the population of your catchment area when you want to be the hub.


Here are nominal GDP numbers (from Wikipedia, source linked to international monetary fund 2017)

Hong Kong $46109
Japan $38440
South Korea $29891
Taiwan $24577
China $8643
Thailand $6591

Looking at those I don't believe the difference is substantial enough to make a real big impact. South Korea having twice the population of course makes a much bigger difference in OD traffic. Also according to Wikipedia (Too lazy to dig deeper) Taiwan has a median wealth per adult higher than South Korea ($87,257 vs $67,934).

I understand in the past BR and CI where both considered low yield / cheap etc but are there some statistics available to show that its really the case anymore? I mostly fly business class but I've had much better luck getting cheap tickets on CX and JL than with BR and CI.

The China situation is of course is a major problem for CI/BR.
 
tris06
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Being a CI member I do fly often through TPE. My wife is a PRC citizen and is able to transfer through TPE but only when starting from HKG. The last Reply talks about the poor Lounges. But I feel that is coming from a BR experience. CI lounge T1 is actually the best lounge in TPE and Would definately beat any lounge in CAN/PVG/ICN (thinking korean Air flagship lounge). Compared to HKG CX lounges I would say it is not as good as those lounges.

The issues listed above about High yielding passengers... TPE will struggle to become a financial hub not only Because of lack of english and etc. But also Taipei is not seen as stable and HK due to its issues with China.

2nd point about large volumes well that Would be mostly Because of the lack of chinese transiting. Also Tourists don't know Taiwan well because it is a black spot on the map. China wishes the world knows nothing about Taiwan.

Looking at the overal picture I really don't think TPE airport is doing badly. Numbers are increasing and gradually brand awarness of Taiwan airlines is growing. Just read the Australian business traveller website and you will see many comments attached to articles about how they found a gem in a sense of a good value product. Maybe in the longer term when awareness grows then yields will improve.

The asian market is very interesting. By the way CX does have problems with high yield as HK is not the dominant finiancial hub it use to be. PRC also does not care as much about upsetting the stable business setting.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:56 pm

tris06 wrote:
TPE will struggle to become a financial hub not only Because of lack of english and etc. But also Taipei is not seen as stable and ... due to its issues with China.

Eh, on both of those points, Korea and SEL are exactly the same - 1) a lack of English, and 2) instability (caused by i) North Korea's eternal presence and ii) chaebol corruption). In any event, you don't need to be the top-tier in financial hubbing to be an aviation hub - AMS and ATL are case-in-point.

tris06 wrote:
2nd point about large volumes well that Would be mostly Because of the lack of chinese transiting.

This. ICN and HKG have been able to get critical mass and supplement their O&D, largely by feeding the PRC - TPE can't do this for political reasons, and won't be able to for the foreseeable future. Of course, there are other, smaller corridors to focus on, like US - ASEAN and Australasia - Europe.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:14 pm

IMO, plain and simply, this comes down to the inability of Taiwan to attract PRC transits, which is Asia's big prize.

I don't buy the argument that Taiwan's so-called 'weak' economy is hindering a TPE aviation hub from developing:

raylee67 wrote:
Taiwan's economy is not competitive ...

Taiwan's economy (15th) is well ahead of Korea's (26th) in competitiveness in the World Economic Forum's GCR.

raylee67 wrote:
K-POP thing brings Korea to the world.

Taiwan has a pop-culture scene too, from Jay Chou to bubble teas - IMHO, aviation is not driven by pop-culture.

raylee67 wrote:
Taiwanese is less wealthy to afford long range travel to exotic places. ICN and HKG can support regular services to places like Zagreb or Venice ...

... and yet ICN cannot support flights to major commercial destinations that TPE can, such as IAH, MEL and SUB.

Cheers,

C.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:20 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
This. ICN and HKG have been able to get critical mass and supplement their O&D, largely by feeding the PRC - TPE can't do this for political reasons, and won't be able to for the foreseeable future. Of course, there are other, smaller corridors to focus on, like US - ASEAN and Australasia - Europe.


Yep. Especially evident is how fast ICN dropped, in terms of percentage of transit pax, in 2017 after the "spat" with PRC over THAAD. ICN compensate that with increasing O&D to S. Korea, though.

And even HKG is no longer THE transit airport for PRC pax. The increased in non-stop from PRC carriers will continue to lower yield on those transit pax, as CX is learning right now.

For TPE - you can take away AusNZ to Europe for the most part also, at least for now. It's only about 4-5 years ago that CI and BR are finally able to fly non-stop to Europe, given their lack of PRC overflight rights for years. It's a place that Ci/BR can certainly hope to grow, though, although the competition will be fierce (ME3 or CX/SQ/TG aside, you got the PRC carriers wanting a piece of that pie also. CZ is steadily developing "Canton Route", while you got carriers like MF and 3U that can certainly grow that way if they wished to.

planemanofnz wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Taiwanese is less wealthy to afford long range travel to exotic places. ICN and HKG can support regular services to places like Zagreb or Venice ...

... and yet ICN cannot support flights to major commercial destinations that TPE can, such as IAH, MEL and SUB..


To be fair, SUB has a long history of Chinese community, specifically, Chinese from Min Chinese speaking region. For IAH - KE can argue that they fly to DFW also. Either way, KE/OZ flight to N. America is mostly aiming to capture Korean-American VFR traffic anyway, not a lot different than CI/BR. (So essentially it's a tie).

Taiwan economy is definitely going nowhere, though, and no matter how you want to spin it, it's just the truth. On the flip side, South Korea is not as "high yield" as people make it out to be, either (It's somewhere in the middle), nor is Seoul all that big of a financial center. For instance, there's a reason why UA only fly to ICN from SFO, and AA only from DFW. South Korean do travel a LOT, though, I'll give them that.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:37 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
For TPE - you can take away AusNZ to Europe for the most part also, at least for now. It's only about 4-5 years ago that CI and BR are finally able to fly non-stop to Europe, given their lack of PRC overflight rights for years. It's a place that Ci/BR can certainly hope to grow, though, although the competition will be fierce (ME3 or CX/SQ/TG aside, you got the PRC carriers wanting a piece of that pie also. CZ is steadily developing "Canton Route", while you got carriers like MF and 3U that can certainly grow that way if they wished to.

Despite not flying some TPE - Europe routes non-stop, and despite some terrible layover times, BR and CI have been able to attract some Australasian transits through competitive pricing - not great, but at least it's something. As the amount of non-stop flights increases, so too may their yield within this corridor.

Cheers,

C.
 
tris06
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:49 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
tris06 wrote:
TPE will struggle to become a financial hub not only Because of lack of english and etc. But also Taipei is not seen as stable and ... due to its issues with China.

Eh, on both of those points, Korea and SEL are exactly the same - 1) a lack of English, and 2) instability (caused by i) North Korea's eternal presence and ii) chaebol corruption). In any event, you don't need to be ...[./quote]


I was refering to high yield. ICN is not high yield and is not priced much above TPE airlines when your looking to transit or direct flights. CI flights terminating in TPE are not that much cheaper than say a direct flight to ICN with KE. CX and Singapore airlines has been able to extract far better yield due to them being a financial hub. Sorry ATL is not a high yielding destination if you compare this to JFK or LHR completely different league. ATL is mid-low yield mass transiting airport.

2nd point was about large numbers of passengers. ICN for many years used China for a large amount of transiting that is suffering recently. HKG is also feeling the heat now mainland airlines are trying to serve more point to point flights.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:15 pm

raylee67 wrote:
There are successful companies such as Taiwan Semiconductor and Foxconn

The latter might not be so much to boast of though; sure it brings in the revenue, but it has an absolutely horrid reputation, all over the world.

The global revelation about the suicide-nets and terrible work conditions will likely resonate for years/decades to come:
Instead of resolving the fact that their workers are so abused and entrapped that they'd rather kill themselves than continue working there.... the company instead chose to put nets on the side of the building, to blunt the suicidal falls. Insane.

Image
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tphuang
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:21 pm

i prefer HKG due to the CX lounges. One other thing often missed is how close the airport is to the city. TPE/ICN/NRT are all really far away from the city. HKG is a 24 min train ride into central iirc. That's pretty close. A lot of people transiting are not coming to Asia that frequently and do want to have a layover experience. And HKG has more O&D especially of business variety than TPE/ICN.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:24 am

tris06 wrote:
I was refering to high yield ... ICN is not high yield

... isn't the point of this thread though that TPE is not growing its hub as fast as ICN is? Assuming TPE and ICN have similar yield, the point about TPE's (lack of) hub dominance therefore doesn't come down to yield - plainly and simply, it comes down to the lack of PRC transits.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:31 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
For IAH - KE can argue that they fly to DFW also ...

That's like saying even though KE doesn't fly to MEL, because they fly to SYD, they can argue they fly to MEL?

Cheers,

C.
 
ryder1650
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:18 am

Seems like an odd thing to gripe over. The airport is way overcapacity and the new terminal won't be ready until 2023. Planes routinely are stuck in holds while waiting to land. Why complain about not growing connecting traffic when the airport can barely handle O&D traffic?
 
CX Flyboy
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:33 am

very big airspace delays through Taipei airspace recently. Traffic has grown to a level that with a bit of bad weather around, things grind to a halt. As I type this (sunday noon-ish) all traffic in neighbouring Hong Kong bound for destinations through TPE airspace (I.e Japan, Korea, N. America etc) have been told to expect 5 hours delay because of flow control issues in TPE. This is becomming more and more common and needs to be sorted out before any new terminals or runways etc can be put to any good use.
 
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c933103
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:02 am

planemanofnz wrote:
tris06 wrote:
I was refering to high yield ... ICN is not high yield

... isn't the point of this thread though that TPE is not growing its hub as fast as ICN is? Assuming TPE and ICN have similar yield, the point about TPE's (lack of) hub dominance therefore doesn't come down to yield - plainly and simply, it comes down to the lack of PRC transits.

Cheers,

C.

The thread is more about the percentage of connecting traffic than absolute volume.
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c933103
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

CX Flyboy wrote:
very big airspace delays through Taipei airspace recently. Traffic has grown to a level that with a bit of bad weather around, things grind to a halt. As I type this (sunday noon-ish) all traffic in neighbouring Hong Kong bound for destinations through TPE airspace (I.e Japan, Korea, N. America etc) have been told to expect 5 hours delay because of flow control issues in TPE. This is becomming more and more common and needs to be sorted out before any new terminals or runways etc can be put to any good use.

Of course there would be delays, there is a typhoon just north of Taiwan as we are now talking about it Image
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:44 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
For IAH - KE can argue that they fly to DFW also ...

That's like saying even though KE doesn't fly to MEL, because they fly to SYD, they can argue they fly to MEL?

Cheers,

C.


To start - KE used to fly to IAH. They ended the route b/c the O&D is not quite there, while connection-wise they have to compete with CA and *gasp* BR (Both being *A help with the customer base). IIRC BR is carrying a large amount of ASEAN (Mainly Vietnam and Philippines) VFR traffic to//from IAH right now. IAH business base is still largely oil/gas, something that S. Korea is not exactly big with.

c933103 wrote:
The thread is more about the percentage of connecting traffic than absolute volume.


Quite frankly the whole article is misleading anyway.

For instance, they talked about growth rate of connecting traffic at TPE, but turn around and only used connection percentage of other airports in the region, rather than having an apple-to-apple comparison. TPE total amount of connecting traffic may only grew from 9%-ish to 10%-ish, but then, you turn around and look at HKG, in which connecting traffic had been consistently around 30% for many years. ICN, where the connecting percentage dropped from 25% to 17% (OAG), etc. In terms of absolute number, connecting traffic at TPE is increasing anyway, since the total pax number also increased YoY at TPE (Just throwing numbers out there, let say, it was 9% connection at 35M total pax in 2014 = ~3.15M connecting pax; now it's 10% at 45M total pax in 2017 = ~4.5M connecting pax).

In another word, it's much ado about nothing. The author dream of turning TPE into DXB-like airport, even though DXB right now is actually trying to increased O&D and reduced the amount of connecting pax percentage.
 
CX Flyboy
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Re: Taoyuan airport/TPE not a competitive transit hub?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:55 am

c933103 wrote:
CX Flyboy wrote:
very big airspace delays through Taipei airspace recently. Traffic has grown to a level that with a bit of bad weather around, things grind to a halt. As I type this (sunday noon-ish) all traffic in neighbouring Hong Kong bound for destinations through TPE airspace (I.e Japan, Korea, N. America etc) have been told to expect 5 hours delay because of flow control issues in TPE. This is becomming more and more common and needs to be sorted out before any new terminals or runways etc can be put to any good use.

Of course there would be delays, there is a typhoon just north of Taiwan as we are now talking about it Image


Typhoons are common in Taiwanese airspace in summer. Of all my years flying in and out of this airspace there have never been delays of the magnitude that I have experienced this year, not only because of the typhoon this week but in recent couple of months also. Summer weather in these parts is not something new.

Taiwanese airspace and the surrounding airspace has absorbed a huge increase in overflight traffic in recent years and there have been a number of new airways popping up which quickly become saturated during certain times of the day. Throw in a bit of weather with planes deviating and they have to start restricting available flight levels or restricting the flow to only one aircraft every XX minutes. All this creates havoc on a system already under pressure. This is not unique to Taiwan but an issue for the whole of Asia where the infrastructure and red-tape isn't allowing the service quality to be retained while traffic increases.

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