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CitizenJustin
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:25 pm

How much harder would it have been to take an Airbus or Boeing? Would that have even been possible?
 
splitterz
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:26 pm

He specifically called out poor wages and Alaska management in the video.

Maybe we should look at the work hours, conditions, and wages in commercial aviation.

RIP Rich.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:28 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
With reference to CFM565A1’s post #323- Well of course, it was inevitable that this would be ridiculously blamed on flight simulation software (as an obvious red herring), and not a focus on (real world) potential security breaches at KSEA and Horizon Air, the potential lack of appropriate levels of vetting (including past mental health issues) of airline employees working in the (their) highly secured areas, and the apparent lack of available-for-flight securing measures of any commercial aircraft at KSEA during off-peak, etc. hours, etc. And also investigate, when KSEA ATC apparently knew real time (refer to the news conference this afternoon) that this hijacker taxied to the runway and took off without authorization, why KSEA airport police weren’t notified by ATC and apparently not dispatched to that taxiway and runway to obstruct this takeoff. ATC apparently knew real time (refer to the news conference this afternoon) that this was an unauthorized flight (no pushback and start up approval, no taxi approval, no takeoff approval). Isn’t it better to stop an unauthorized flight on the ground instead of in the air?
So in all fairness, if flight simulation software is going to be the convenient red herring for this incident, then they’ll have to eliminate the $ Tens of Billions per year sales of military/war games and military flight simulation software that may lead to violent tendencies, eliminate the Hollywood movie industry movies with $ Hundreds of Billions revenue per year, which are full of tactical methods, constant and unending graphic violence and killing, etc. In fact, they’ll need to get rid of all video games that could be construed as leading to violence. And maybe they need to get rid of the video games our (most) young children are watching nonstop these days (a $ Hundreds of Billions market) which may be distorting their minds (while also leading to gross obesity). Just saying. Focus on the real world issues and not the convenient red herrings.


Very well put!
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:31 pm

About the shooting down a rogue plane, is it really ever an option? There are still arguments about UA93, whether it was actually shoot down or not, and I don't think it has ever happened officially (because, well, admiting it would probably be a shitstorm). But if we think logically about this situation, would it have worked? Doubt it. Populated areas were right there, if the pilot was keen on taking people with him, what could have the fighter planes done? Shooting the plane down still creates many deaths because the plane still has to crash somewhere and they probably couldn't be fast enough if the pilot wanted to hit a populated area anyway.

To me situations like this illustrate how these mechanisms are somewhat like the Mutual Assured Destruction strategy that was going down in the Cold War. Yes, we have ways to do things but actually *using* them is pretty unthinkable. If you don't shoot down a rogue plane that's circling populated areas, in what situations are you actually going to shoot down one?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the shoot down, just the logic behind it. If the scrambled flighter jets, they were expecting the worst. And the situation was pretty bad. If you don't use it then, I don't think you're ever going to use it.

Anyway, hope Rich is at peace now. RIP.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:38 pm

To the post above about blaming ATC for apparently not dispatching authorities to stop the aircraft on the ground before it even took off..... I get what you’re saying, but we have no idea what was going on. There is a very good chance they DID dispatch authorities as soon as they noticed something wrong. Based on the the YouTube VASAviation video with ATC audio and diagram of the aircraft taxiing, the location where the plane wasn’t parked may have been right there at the end of the runway and essentially he could have been near the runway by the time anything stood out to ATC. All I’m saying is I’m pretty sure the second things didn’t seem right to the controller at least a supervisor was notified at a minimum. I don’t work in a tower, but I would imagine there are procedures for things like this.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:42 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
And also investigate, when KSEA ATC apparently knew real time (refer to the news conference this afternoon) that this hijacker taxied to the runway and took off without authorization, why KSEA airport police weren’t notified by ATC and apparently not dispatched to that taxiway and runway to obstruct this takeoff. ATC apparently knew real time (refer to the news conference this afternoon) that this was an unauthorized flight (no pushback and start up approval, no taxi approval, no takeoff approval). Isn’t it better to stop an unauthorized flight on the ground instead of in the air?


Do you know that they didn't? It's probably less than 2000 ft from where this plane was taken from to the start of 16L, by the time they realized what was happening and that they had an AC movement they couldn't account for, there probably wasn't anywhere near enough time to put some sort of runway road block in place as you suggest.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:46 pm

What exactly is the startup procedure for a cold Q400 Dash 8?

Certainly it’s more complex that, say an Airbus (batteries on, APU start, and engines can be started from there) — excluding many other steps of course.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. Unfortunately, we're grounded :(
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:48 pm

aden23 wrote:
He was a suicide pilot, they should have taken him out immediately. It is ridiculous that they let him go on. To me this sounds like a major screw up not just on the part of Alaskan, Horizon, SeaTac, but the Air Force as well.


So... what? You know better than all of the individuals involved from all of those institutions?

Well, might as well disband the air force, appoint you CEO of Alaska and Horizon while you sit in the tower. It's cool, you got this.
The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut.
 
scrumbum
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:51 pm

Finn350 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
usxguy wrote:
If its even remotely possible to say something positive about this, I bet BBD is anxious to get their hands on the data recorders so they can see exactly how much force the plane can handle - he did a lot of maneuvers you don't put those planes in.


I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


But surely it must have been the first barrel roll on a Q400 (and I suppose on any modern commercial airliner)?



The 707 might no longer be considered modern, but not the first time at all.
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:57 pm

rjsampson wrote:
What exactly is the startup procedure for a cold Q400 Dash 8?

Certainly it’s more complex that, say an Airbus (batteries on, APU start, and engines can be started from there) — excluding many other steps of course.


Depends, if you want the thing right from cold on normal ops there are a bunch of systems tests.

I fly the older models 100/300 which are a bit more complicated.

On the Q it’s very basic to just start

Battery master and DC power on (or battery power)
Then it’s a matter of selecting the engine you want started and push the starter. Once oil pressure reads you put the condition leaver to start/feather and its fadec takes care of the rest.
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:57 pm

Finn350 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
usxguy wrote:
If its even remotely possible to say something positive about this, I bet BBD is anxious to get their hands on the data recorders so they can see exactly how much force the plane can handle - he did a lot of maneuvers you don't put those planes in.


I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


But surely it must have been the first barrel roll on a Q400 (and I suppose on any modern commercial airliner)?


It has been done on an ATR and the guy wasn't suicidal. He owned the airline.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
citationjet
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:59 pm

cpd wrote:
By the way, is there a reason your posts are always done with strange line breaks splitting up sentences? It makes a tiny post take up a lot of room and also displays strangely - what I've quoted even has a scroll bar.


Max Q wrote:


I take special care to arrange my sentences in that manner
It’s all quite deliberate and primarily for your benefit



And you are most welcome. By the way.


I knew some of Max Q's posts looked familiar......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGsKzZtRwxw
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:00 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
So the learning from this crash will be adding keys to the ignition for all aircraft.


More like a code. Or each pilot gets a dongle authorizing for certain types. But then maintenance needs dongles (e.g., engine runs).

Traditionally no key as what do you do if lost?

Legally, the logbook is the key.
Airfields are supposed to be secure...

Lightsaber


What about having planes parked in a position where they absolutely would need a pushback? At JFK, this might require some changes, especially with planes parked at the two VIP ramps (by Cargo Areas A and D), and wide-bodies at the AA maintenance hangar, or the airport authorities could put clamps on the nose wheels of parked planes that can't be parked without needing a pushback which would be installed and removed by Port Authority personnel, typically carried by "follow me" cars.


More political patronage lifetime jobs for TSA! ( Ducks... Covers...)
 
MartijnNL
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:03 pm

Runway28L wrote:
Really baffled at how this has hardly been reported yet on Twitter and not at all on news networks.

Maybe the media want to get the facts straight before reporting about what happened? Nowadays many people want instant satisfaction of their news hunger. There's nothing wrong with reading all about it in tomorrow's newspaper.
 
Bradin
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:05 pm

I want to go on record that whoever was on duty for ATC was a class act. Professional, calm, always keeping the conversation encouraging, seeking the best positive resolution for everyone.

I tip my hat to everyone yesterday for a job well done.
 
zrb2
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:14 pm

This is one of those cases when i feel bad for the dude. Seemed like a decent guy with a wife and normal life. Obviously he was troubled inside. Wish they could've talked him into attempting a landing and see him pull it off. Can't really tell if he definitely wanted to die, or if he decided to do this reckless act and see where it took him? (with suicide being one of the outcomes that he was OK with). Clearly he was not intending to hurt other people or destroy property other than the plane.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:24 pm

freakyrat wrote:
usxguy wrote:
If its even remotely possible to say something positive about this, I bet BBD is anxious to get their hands on the data recorders so they can see exactly how much force the plane can handle - he did a lot of maneuvers you don't put those planes in.


I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


I rather doubt BBD flight test has done aerobatics in the Q and I know some of those guys—pros.

GF
 
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lebda
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:32 pm

Jouhou wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
I don't believe in people snapping


Whether you believe it or not, it's a scientific fact. It's called a "psychotic break", and you can look that term up. (I had a family member who went through that.) This is why it's usually pointless to ask "why" in cases like this (as well as in other sudden violent events); the real question, and the only thing that actually matters in terms of safety going forward, is "how". Solve the "how" and you solve the problem. Focusing on the "why" is just a distraction.

Even if there was a buildup of problems, two people can go through the same issues and one will handle them fine while the other experiences a psychotic break. There's no real way to predict which of those two people will be ok while the other does something like this. So all you can do is make it so that nobody has the means to do it. Life for anyone is just a series of problems that need to be solved, and humans all handle those problems differently.

I'm not a mechanic so I don't know what security protocols are already in place. But I would think there has to be a way to keep a mechanic from stealing a plane. I mean, I dunno, make it so that two people are always watching the planes in the hangar, or make it so you need a security code to start a plane's engines, or whatever... there are any number of ideas. It's not impossible for a company to keep better control than this on its employees and assets.


The audio does tell me this is definitely a psychotic episode. I also get the feeling he may have been severely bipolar. That manic tone of voice and way of thinking is familiar to me, it happened to my ex (he attempted to kill me and himself).

I'm glad he hurt no one else, that's a dangerous state of mind. And hey, if you're going to lose your mind, I suppose he pulled it off in spectacular fashion. That was a crazy manoeuvre he pulled off.

Also, RE: video games, "Do a barrel roll" was from starfox. GTA has you do it as a part of the flight tutorial, but starfox made it a meme beforehand. The guys obsession with it tells me he had starfox in mind.


Can confirm, I've had hypomanic episodes, he talks and acts the same way in the ATC recording. Engaging in super risky, erratic behavior that you wouldn't otherwise do is another giveaway. He was on a self-destructive bent. Terrible.

RIP Mr. Russell.
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:44 pm

To illustrate what I'm talking about, he is already a hero to a lot of people. Look at the video in this tweet from "Eddie G":

https://twitter.com/EddieGBabylon/statu ... 4381210625

Now, is that a good thing or bad thing? I don't know. But I really do understand the sympathy for this guy. I feel it myself.
 
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SEAxSANxBOS
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:06 pm

Okay, reading a bunch of these post and trying to explain to other people outside of these forums on how this might happen.

Note, SPECULATION. I do not know all the facts so I am hypothesizing and extrapolating based on experience and knowledge of SEA, it's AOA, possible move crew operations and how this might work in this case.

This individual appears and I stress that, appears to have worked on a move crew like team, that would be responsible for towing and moving aircraft from different positions at SEA. To do so would mean you would be trained on how to talk to ATC and comfortable being around both static and active aircraft while operating in the AOA. IF this individual did any of this as part of their job description and performed duties such as brake riding. Where they would be in the cockpit while an aircraft is being moved from one location to another, it would again. Give the individual opportunity and be comfortable while being there. Giving any bit of basic research, clear intent and motivation, and a look at the checklist which is going to be easily accessible. One could research, learn this process, and then using the knowledge and experience of moving on the AOA. Proceed to have a go at this fatal flight...

Again to be clear, this is just speculation. I do not know this person, nor have I heard all the facts or ATC communications. However knowing what I know. I can conceive how this event happened in the manner that it did.
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hilram
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:16 pm

Finn350 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
usxguy wrote:
If its even remotely possible to say something positive about this, I bet BBD is anxious to get their hands on the data recorders so they can see exactly how much force the plane can handle - he did a lot of maneuvers you don't put those planes in.


I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


But surely it must have been the first barrel roll on a Q400 (and I suppose on any modern commercial airliner)?

I do not know if you consider the Boeing 707 to be a "modern" commercial airliner - it certainly belongs in the Jet Age - but Boeing test pilot Tex Johnson took a Barrel Roll in it over the Lake Washington in 1955. ;-)
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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smithbs
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:31 pm

Good to see the 142 FW - I visited their base at PDX a couple times for ANG duties and been around the alert hangar and F-15s therein.

My opinion: If the lone "pilot" is clearly psychologically compromised and is showing no good-faith interest in even attempting to land safely, then the airplane is going to crash somewhere. The question then is if he's going to cause more death and destruction when he does crash. And so I'd say that the moment he goes over water or empty land...order the fighters to take the shot.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:40 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I love the empathy for this guy's mental illness. And in fact I have no doubt that he was depressed/suicidal, so my heart goes out to him and his family. I just wonder if you guys would be so sympathetic if his name was Mohammed? Would it still be mental illness?


I agree, its nice to see. Especially after all of the hysterics initially on this thread (some people live strange lives) but then again 90% of the population actually believe they live in a reality that they are seeing and thats it, soooooo.

If his name was Mohammad the tone would be incredibly negative, racist beyond words (because this site is full of some of the most sneaky racists) and it would just be plain sad.

I feel sorry for this guy and his family/friends. I look forward to the official spin on this story, and alternative news clippings. The truth will settle somewhere in the middle.

Interesting events playing out on PLANEt Earth. Reality is coming into view.


I’m incredibly moved by the supportive comments as well. However, you should go to YouTube and see the conspiracy videos popping up spouting the same nonsense as usual. This can’t just be a case where a guy with mental issues stole a plane, there’s an agenda, the plane was remote controlled, Qanon, etc. etc.

As someone who engineers aircraft, I'm a bit mortified he was able to start the plane. This is a rare case of mental illness. I think if Mohammed had the same conversation and ATC was calling him "Mo", we would have a similar discussion.

This was a scary case. F-15s were scrambled and apparently went supersonic to catch up to the perp. (Make no mistake, a major crime was committed that makes grand theft auto look tame.) If certain phrases had been said... The F-15s would have been given different orders and *then* we would be having a different discussion.

I'm of mixed opinion. I had a relative commit suicide. I blame her husband as the doctors put in writing "The cancer has put her in so much pain, patients are very likely to commit suicide until she heals more." He refused (didn't trust doctors, idiot...) and the doctors prediction was accurate.

So I don't know why this person was driven to suicide. But I know a man who commited suicide in a rented exotic and ended up killing someone. I don't morn him, I morn who he killed (he is a murderer in my book). This person was so dangerous in a multi-engine aircraft that we were lucky he went over the water per ATC request. Yes. Luck. I've personally witnessed experienced pilots doing stunts that were *incredibly* dangerous. Then again, I was withholding my authorization to test... something... where the idiot had drifted into controlled airspace assigned for such testing...

I feel for people in depression. I really do. But not when they take their life:
1. With stolen machinery (plane, car, or some other scenario).
2. They endanger other people.

Unfortunately, my opinion, as a very experienced test engineer who knows what dangers an aircraft really represents, both items were strikes.

Lightsaber
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musman9853
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:44 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
Can only imagine what was going through the heads of those F-15 pilots when they got the order to scramble knowing this was a real world situation.


In the last 17 years there's been like 1600 norad intercepts. That's like 2 a week. Not uncommon I wouldn't think
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prebennorholm
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


But surely it must have been the first barrel roll on a Q400 (and I suppose on any modern commercial airliner)?


It has been done on an ATR and the guy wasn't suicidal. He owned the airline.

It was 9 May 2008, CEO, co-owner and captain of Cimber Air (Danish regional airline) Mr Jørgen Nielsen prepared for a demontration with ATR-42 at an airshow at Sønderborg Airport, a very small site only served by Cimber Air at that time. When finished, then before preparing for landing he made a barrel roll. Unlucky for him it was videoed from the ground and put on youtube.

Can't find a video any longer, but here is a photo taken from the ground http://www.oy-reg.dk/billeder/l9093.jpg

The authorities told the press that it was an illegal maneuver since the ATR was not certified in the aerobatic category. Therefore they would have a talk with Mr Nielsen.

Nielsen told the press that he was sorry that he had done something illegal, but it was no big deal and should be treated as if he had been speeding ten mph too fast on the motorway.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Acey559
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:56 pm

rjsampson wrote:
What exactly is the startup procedure for a cold Q400 Dash 8?

Certainly it’s more complex that, say an Airbus (batteries on, APU start, and engines can be started from there) — excluding many other steps of course.


I used to fly the Q400 at QX and while I’m reaching to remember, I can point you in the right direction.

First up are the batteries. There are four battery switches in the Q400 and they must be switched in a certain order or you risk frying the electrical system.

Once that’s accomplished, you can start the APU, which requires pressing the APU Master switch (or a similar name, I can’t exactly recall), wait for the BITE test and then press the start switch. Once on line, press the Generator switch.

After fully establishing electrical power the normal procedure would be to initialize the IRS unit (for the Heads-Up Guidance System) as well as the FMS units. Not essential so I doubt he performed those tasks, but you never know.

That’s really all there is to it. Sure, there a numerous other tests but the plane will fly fine without accomplishing them. In fact, the daily checks usually weren’t done until the plane was in a maintenance base in case a test failed. Most airlines do their tests on the first flight of the day, but QX doesn’t (unless the plane originated at a maintenance base).

As for start, it’s simple in the Q400. Recirc Fan to off, engine start select switch to 2, press Start and wait for the first indication of prop rotation Nh on the EICAS. Prop to feather and repeat for number 1.

Props to 1020, hydraulic pumps on, flaps to 15 (usually) and gust lock off and you’re basically ready to go. The whole thing can be done in less than 10 minutes if you’re reasonably proficient.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:15 pm

Gawd, BBD did simplify things in the Global. BATT-ON, momentarily select APU to START, then release to RUN; select both engine switches to RUN. Do those in order and you have running airplane without other actions. The FADECs will only start the engines in sequence; air is all automatic. Now, setting up the FMS, etc is more. It’d take about 8 minutes, if you didn’t care about the cabin boot up. Yes, hydraulic pumps ON, flaps 6 and NWS armed would get you airborne.

AFBs had regular drills to prevent aircraft hujackings including sending out the fire apparatus and SP to block the aircraft. Any movement without a flight plan strip in the tower sent out a response.

GF
 
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csturdiv
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:19 pm

musman9853 wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
Can only imagine what was going through the heads of those F-15 pilots when they got the order to scramble knowing this was a real world situation.


In the last 17 years there's been like 1600 norad intercepts. That's like 2 a week. Not uncommon I wouldn't think


And out of all of those intercepts, how many were stolen commercial aircraft? Not hijacked in the air, but stolen from the ground at a busy commercial airport. This was not common.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
dr1980
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:24 pm

One thing i picked up on listening to the ATC recording was that he was flying with the condition levers in flight idle (the pilot who was on the frequency to help asked him then told him that was too low for prop rpm and to make an adjustment) so I wonder from that how closely he was following a checklist/manual beyond just getting the engines started.
Last edited by dr1980 on Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:24 pm

It really doesn’t matter to the F-15 pilots; every intercept is a high-stress, well orchestrated plan that might, and has, resulted in tragedy. Remember Payne Stewart’s plane, Helios, 9/11.

GF
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:36 pm

dr1980 wrote:
One thing i picked up on listening to the ATC recording was that he was flying with the condition levers in flight idle (the pilot who was on the frequency to help asked him then told him that was too low for prop rpm and to make an adjustment) so I wonder from that how closely he was following a checklist/manual beyond just getting the engines started.


Only the power levers (throttles can be put to flight idle). If he had put the condition levers too low (start feather, he wouldn’t have made it even that far). I would say they were in the min position which is what we fly around with typically at cruise.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
ozark1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:53 pm

I haven't read any responses but just felt i wanted to say a couple of things. First, my heart breaks for this man who was obviously hurting mentally and admitted it , along with his apologies. We need to spend a lot more money on mental illness assistance in this country.
Second, I am truly, truly amazed at the professionalism of the SEA controllers and how they handled the entire situation.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:00 am

splitterz wrote:
He specifically called out poor wages and Alaska management in the video.

Maybe we should look at the work hours, conditions, and wages in commercial aviation.

RIP Rich.


Yet we won't get a utopia where you work Monday through Friday 9 to 5 and make 100k a year fueling planes and pushing them back to depart. That is not the industry and some guy who snapped and killed himself is not going to change that.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
OKCDCA
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:02 am

csturdiv wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
Can only imagine what was going through the heads of those F-15 pilots when they got the order to scramble knowing this was a real world situation.


In the last 17 years there's been like 1600 norad intercepts. That's like 2 a week. Not uncommon I wouldn't think


And out of all of those intercepts, how many were stolen commercial aircraft? Not hijacked in the air, but stolen from the ground at a busy commercial airport. This was not common.

I agree this was not common and I should’ve worded my initial post a little differently. Out of all the intercepts that have happened, it’s my understanding the vast majority are people not answering the radio or other “minor” issues and I’m guessing the fighter pilots get accustomed to those situations, probably even annoyed by them to an extent. This time they had to have known there was a real possibility of being ordered to shoot down a civilian airliner... Surely they had to have been thinking a little differently this time.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:12 am

Having been both a first responder and an USAF attack pilot in the past, I pretty sure they have that outcome in mind every time they’re scrambled. You’re not ordered to launch with, “it’s nothing this time, but we have send you”. Firefighters, police and fighter pilots have killed on “easy” call outs.

GF
 
T prop
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:13 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
What exactly is the startup procedure for a cold Q400 Dash 8?

Certainly it’s more complex that, say an Airbus (batteries on, APU start, and engines can be started from there) — excluding many other steps of course.


Depends, if you want the thing right from cold on normal ops there are a bunch of systems tests.

I fly the older models 100/300 which are a bit more complicated.

On the Q it’s very basic to just start

Battery master and DC power on (or battery power)
Then it’s a matter of selecting the engine you want started and push the starter. Once oil pressure reads you put the condition leaver to start/feather and its fadec takes care of the rest.


You're a sim pilot?
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:30 am

I'm really pleased to see the professionalism and deep thought it appears many have taken in regards to this situation.

This gent said a lot of things, and we all know they are true. This industry have treated employees so badly for so long. It used to be a goo career, and many still make it their career, because the love of aviation is a powerful thing, but your destined for a single wide, if you can even get approved for that anymore.
Airlines need to see, their precious paying cargo, and their precious leased planes are only operating because of these people, and pay them better. Cut executive salaries and you'd have plenty to pay real wages, and the executives will still live high on the hog.

I hope real talk and real action comes from this man, who IMO didn't appear ready to die when it came down to it, but he weighed his limited options, presumed he was in for a life of worse hell and made the ultimate call. May he RIP, and my we learn from it
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:33 am

NIKV69 wrote:
splitterz wrote:
He specifically called out poor wages and Alaska management in the video.

Maybe we should look at the work hours, conditions, and wages in commercial aviation.

RIP Rich.


Yet we won't get a utopia where you work Monday through Friday 9 to 5 and make 100k a year fueling planes and pushing them back to depart. That is not the industry and some guy who snapped and killed himself is not going to change that.


According to an online profile of him, he and his wife owned a bakery for three years. He was going to school (at some point) to get a degree and was hoping to move up, possibly at Horizon. They had traveled internationally. I just don’t see this as a guy without opportunities nor a guy who never had two nickels to rub together. However, a business can kill you financially, a degree can kill you financially, international travel can kill you financially and a lower paying job can kill you financially. All of them together could definitely be hard.

I have looked at airline employment in the past, and it certainly wasn’t for the money.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Airbus747
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:38 am

Richard "Beebo" Russell is now being called a "hero" and "sky king" in some parts of the internet, especially for having performed the aerobatic stunts.

A few articles try to understand what kind of a person he was: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 09306.html

His online profiles appear to depict a normal guy who loved traveling and sharing his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ765Fnec8Q (video he made about himself and his work)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beebo-russell-544730158 (his Linkedin profile)
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5038
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:43 am

Airbus747 wrote:
Richard "Beebo" Russell is now being called a "hero" and "sky king" in some parts of the internet, especially for having performed the aerobatic stunts.

A few articles try to understand what kind of a person he was: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 09306.html

His online profiles appear to depict a normal guy who loved traveling and sharing his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ765Fnec8Q (video he made about himself and his work)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beebo-russell-544730158 (his Linkedin profile)

This guy is going to be a hero for a long time. What he did was absolutely incredible.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:45 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
I'm really pleased to see the professionalism and deep thought it appears many have taken in regards to this situation.

This gent said a lot of things, and we all know they are true. This industry have treated employees so badly for so long. It used to be a goo career, and many still make it their career, because the love of aviation is a powerful thing, but your destined for a single wide, if you can even get approved for that anymore.
Airlines need to see, their precious paying cargo, and their precious leased planes are only operating because of these people, and pay them better. Cut executive salaries and you'd have plenty to pay real wages, and the executives will still live high on the hog.

I hope real talk and real action comes from this man, who IMO didn't appear ready to die when it came down to it, but he weighed his limited options, presumed he was in for a life of worse hell and made the ultimate call. May he RIP, and my we learn from it


This is utter nonsense. Confiscate executive salaries and you couldn’t pay what the industry traditionally paid. Where else can pilots make $300,000? It’s one of the most highly unionized industries in the US, pay is still middle to upper middle class. Yes, deregulation has made the consumer’s desire for cheap fares the king, but careers in aviation are still well worthwhile and the future doesn’t mean a sing,e wide on food stamps.

GF
 
MartyMcFlyYYC
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:45 am

aden23 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Can someone explain why they didn’t shoot this plane down immediately?

It’s a confirmed hijacked plane, flown erratically by a suicidal man over innocent people. What exactly were they waiting for?

Engaging in a target of interest is a HUGE decision, so it's not exactly that simple. They would need to determine that the pilot has the intent to harm others or cause damage to a sensitive site, so there needs to be justification. It also creates a lot of legal issues, particularly if it causes death, injury, or property damage. These determinations are made in real time involving various agencies of interest.

If he were flying directly towards a heavily populated area or a piece of critical infrastructure, the equation to engage the target would have changed significantly. In this instance, it should be fairly clear that shooting down this aircraft was not in the public interest or for the benefit of national security. It sounds to me like it was handled correctly.


I’m not sure I buy this. At all.

A lunatic flying barrel rolls over populated areas, and it’s in the public’s “best interest” to let him continue his antics? What’d they think, that this criminal was going to all of a sudden comply and make a nice landing? Give me a break.

He was flying close and low enough to people on the ground that they could identify it as an Alaskan Airlines plane. In other words, no more than a couple seconds at any given point from killing innoencents on the ground.

He was a suicide pilot, they should have taken him out immediately. It is ridiculous that they let him go on. To me this sounds like a major screw up not just on the part of Alaskan, Horizon, SeaTac, but the Air Force as well.

I wonder if you all would have been lamenting his mental health if he had killed a bunch of people during his suicide mission?


So you're advocating them potentially shooting down an aircraft over populated areas where people could be seriously injured or killed on the ground? Give your head a shake.
 
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Classa64
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:48 am

Bradin wrote:
I want to go on record that whoever was on duty for ATC was a class act. Professional, calm, always keeping the conversation encouraging, seeking the best positive resolution for everyone.

I tip my hat to everyone yesterday for a job well done.


I second this.... I also hope he and the others involved get the help they need to deal with what they went through. I can't imagine going home after talking to the guy for so long and feel Ok knowing what the end result was. He should be commended for his handing of all this, he tried, some people just want to call it a night though and there is not much you can do.

C.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
32andBelow
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:50 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
I'm really pleased to see the professionalism and deep thought it appears many have taken in regards to this situation.

This gent said a lot of things, and we all know they are true. This industry have treated employees so badly for so long. It used to be a goo career, and many still make it their career, because the love of aviation is a powerful thing, but your destined for a single wide, if you can even get approved for that anymore.
Airlines need to see, their precious paying cargo, and their precious leased planes are only operating because of these people, and pay them better. Cut executive salaries and you'd have plenty to pay real wages, and the executives will still live high on the hog.

I hope real talk and real action comes from this man, who IMO didn't appear ready to die when it came down to it, but he weighed his limited options, presumed he was in for a life of worse hell and made the ultimate call. May he RIP, and my we learn from it


This is utter nonsense. Confiscate executive salaries and you couldn’t pay what the industry traditionally paid. Where else can pilots make $300,000? It’s one of the most highly unionized industries in the US, pay is still middle to upper middle class. Yes, deregulation has made the consumer’s desire for cheap fares the king, but careers in aviation are still well worthwhile and the future doesn’t mean a sing,e wide on food stamps.

GF

The only people pod well at an airline are pilots mechanics and upper level managers. Everyone else is underpaid
 
catiii
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:54 am

NIKV69 wrote:
splitterz wrote:
He specifically called out poor wages and Alaska management in the video.

Maybe we should look at the work hours, conditions, and wages in commercial aviation.

RIP Rich.


Yet we won't get a utopia where you work Monday through Friday 9 to 5 and make 100k a year fueling planes and pushing them back to depart. That is not the industry and some guy who snapped and killed himself is not going to change that.


To say nothing of the fact that there are 430K airline employees in the United States who aren’t hijacking airplanes to make a point on wages. To think that his sick actions should lead to a review of wages is absolutely asinine.

“Hey, he hijacked an airplane and created a national emergency. Maybe he has a point on wages though.”
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:56 am

T prop wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
What exactly is the startup procedure for a cold Q400 Dash 8?

Certainly it’s more complex that, say an Airbus (batteries on, APU start, and engines can be started from there) — excluding many other steps of course.


Depends, if you want the thing right from cold on normal ops there are a bunch of systems tests.

I fly the older models 100/300 which are a bit more complicated.

On the Q it’s very basic to just start

Battery master and DC power on (or battery power)
Then it’s a matter of selecting the engine you want started and push the starter. Once oil pressure reads you put the condition leaver to start/feather and its fadec takes care of the rest.


You're a sim pilot?


Nope I hold a type rating for the Dash 8 and fly for a regional carrier.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
catiii
Posts: 3644
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:56 am

Airbus747 wrote:
Richard "Beebo" Russell is now being called a "hero" and "sky king" in some parts of the internet, especially for having performed the aerobatic stunts.

A few articles try to understand what kind of a person he was: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 09306.html

His online profiles appear to depict a normal guy who loved traveling and sharing his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ765Fnec8Q (video he made about himself and his work)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beebo-russell-544730158 (his Linkedin profile)


What exactly was heroic?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5038
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:01 am

catiii wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
Richard "Beebo" Russell is now being called a "hero" and "sky king" in some parts of the internet, especially for having performed the aerobatic stunts.

A few articles try to understand what kind of a person he was: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 09306.html

His online profiles appear to depict a normal guy who loved traveling and sharing his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ765Fnec8Q (video he made about himself and his work)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beebo-russell-544730158 (his Linkedin profile)


What exactly was heroic?

Stealing an airplane and fulfilling a childhood dream of millions of people to scarred to do anything significant. We love stories were people steal things and are successful. They make movies about stuff like that all the time.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:02 am

Maybe he should have been towing a banner behind that Q400 demanding $15.00 an hour minimum wage. It would have been a peaceful but extremely dangerous protest. I’m only joking with all this wage discussion.

Has any info been released on his current state? I know his blog that was a couple years old showed him married, but is that still the case? Maybe marriage issues or divorce were just another piece to the puzzle who knows.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2091
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:24 am

trnswrld wrote:
To the post above about blaming ATC for apparently not dispatching authorities to stop the aircraft on the ground before it even took off..... I get what you’re saying, but we have no idea what was going on. There is a very good chance they DID dispatch authorities as soon as they noticed something wrong. Based on the the YouTube VASAviation video with ATC audio and diagram of the aircraft taxiing, the location where the plane wasn’t parked may have been right there at the end of the runway and essentially he could have been near the runway by the time anything stood out to ATC. All I’m saying is I’m pretty sure the second things didn’t seem right to the controller at least a supervisor was notified at a minimum. I don’t work in a tower, but I would imagine there are procedures for things like this.


The hangar ramps were right by the end of the runway but how he got to the Center Runway and mixed in with planes on the left runway seems a mystery to me.

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