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MatthewDB
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:30 am

T prop wrote:
Future airplanes should have two pilots, one in the airplane and the other at a ground control station..Steal the airplane or deviate? and sorry, ground pilot has the airplane. Earthquake wrecks the ground station? Ok, sky pilot has it.


What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.
 
T prop
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:34 am

MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
Future airplanes should have two pilots, one in the airplane and the other at a ground control station..Steal the airplane or deviate? and sorry, ground pilot has the airplane. Earthquake wrecks the ground station? Ok, sky pilot has it.


What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6268
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:35 am

Emergency Descent Mode has been a bizjet feature for, at least, 15 years. The Collins Fusion suite added pilot initiation in addition to automatic function. The pilot lifts the guardrail, presses EDM and it’s headed downhill. Just add spoilers, but they maybe auto in the A220.

GF
 
MatthewDB
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:39 am

T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
Future airplanes should have two pilots, one in the airplane and the other at a ground control station..Steal the airplane or deviate? and sorry, ground pilot has the airplane. Earthquake wrecks the ground station? Ok, sky pilot has it.


What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


It's already happened to a RQ-170 over Iran.

I would expect the technology and security that the US military can apply to a small number of drones is vastly more complex than what would be viable for the 23,000 aircraft in service worldwide.

Edit to add: The other factor is that when scaling the technology to vastly more aircraft worldwide, you exponentially expand the number of people around the world that you have to trust with the knowledge of how to hack it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:42 am

usxguy wrote:
do we have any photos of the crash site? :/


https://www.google.com/search?q=horizon ... 67&bih=468
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:44 am

Whild he stole it at SeaTac, he crashed elsewhere.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:46 am

T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
Future airplanes should have two pilots, one in the airplane and the other at a ground control station..Steal the airplane or deviate? and sorry, ground pilot has the airplane. Earthquake wrecks the ground station? Ok, sky pilot has it.


What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


Already have. Iran hacked a drone and landed it in Iran.
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yvr2018
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:12 am

RyanVHS wrote:
Unless he was on the clock, how about limit people’s access to restricted areas when they’re off the clock? Have their passes only valid to those areas during their shifts.


I can't imagine the logistics behind that would be easy. The companies don't issue the airport badges and people pick up and drop shifts all the time in that line of work, end up staying late, or coming in early etc.

I am sure it could be done with enough money, but the logistics behind it would suck, not to mention what if someone leaves their keys or something at work and needs to come back after their shift to get it?
 
gensys
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:19 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
usxguy wrote:
do we have any photos of the crash site? :/


https://www.google.com/search?q=horizon ... 67&bih=468


Many interesting pictures in the above link. However, people should know the one captioned "Uncontrollable Dive" was uploaded in 2014 and is NOT related to this event.
 
T prop
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:25 am

MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:

What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


It's already happened to a RQ-170 over Iran.

I would expect the technology and security that the US military à apply to a small number of drones is vastly more complex than what would be viable for the 23,000 aircraft in service worldwide.

Edit to add: The other factor is that when scaling the technology to vastly more aircraft worldwide, you exponentially expand the number of people around the world that you have to trust with the knowledge of how to hack it.


Yes, we lost an RQ-170 .. Did the Iranians take control of it? They say they did....
Technology moves forward... Autonomous aircraft (with pilot monitor) coming soon to an airport near you.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:38 am

MatthewDB wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Sure...why not?

If a plane is not parked nose first at a gate, anybcommercial plane is stealable.

Pull the chocks, start the engines and go.


Much less likely - you can’t enter a larger plane, much less an A380, without stairs. A Q400 does not need external stairs to get in. With a larger plane, you either need an accomplice to drive the stairs away or you have to crash into them and hope they fall the right way/don’t damage the aircraft badly. Maybe a 737 COULD work, but anything with more ground clearance needs stairs to get in. Or a very tall ladder if you manage to get one there.


I know reverse thrust is not authorized as a powerback on any modern aircraft, but is it possible? Will full reverse thrust back an airplane? If it was possible, that could allow a single person to back away from a set of airstairs at the front door.

Another possibility would be a scissor lift catering truck, with a jury rigged remote lowering control to drop it down to the ground where one could pull forward and let it pass under the horizontal stabalizer.


Actually it is. The 737, 757, and 717 are not prohibited from doing powerbacks. It is prohibited on the 747, 767, 777, and 787. However it would likely work unless the airplane was very heavy.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:46 am

neom wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
neom wrote:

Do you think there is a way to safely design a system like that? For example, if the plane was able to read the heart rate of the pilots and could allow the company to enable a two key system that could land the plane at an airport? I was thinking more in the context of something like Helios Airways Flight 522.

Thanks for the reply.


Good question... I would say no since there’s all this hacking nonsense these days. Not sure I would want someone in a remote position to have access to the plane. Closest thing is the new autodescent feature on planes like the A220 which detects a bad cabin altitude and starts a descent on its own.


The A220 feature is really neat, I did a bit of poking into how that works and it's very clever. I already have a day job and enough to think about (we design internet attached mass transit management systems for cities) + I don't care to hijack this thread (no pun), but it's a super super interesting problem and something that will no doubt bother me in my free time. ;)

Thanks again for your thoughts and perspective. And for being so welcoming on this forum.



Anytime! Enjoy the forums :smile:
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dampfnudel
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:28 am

After listening to the full recording of him talking with ATC today, I have to admit I started to like the guy. RIP Rich/Beebo.
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neomax
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:50 am

MatthewDB wrote:
twinotter wrote:
Any "code"would end up being the same as 99% of secure doors at every airport: 1234.


Bruce G. Blair claims that the first US nuclear bombs with security codes were all set to 00000000. https://web.archive.org/web/20120511191 ... -links.cfm


Can't say I'm surprised. Wouldn't be shocked if they still are.
 
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neomax
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:54 am

alasizon wrote:
SIDA badges are not issued by the company so there is no way (and way too much hassle) to turn badges on and off. What happens if someone stays late, comes in early, etc.?


This issue really isn't when an employee is there vs. what they plan to do. An employee can easily show up at 2:30AM in the morning because they realized they left their phone, and by the same token, working during normal hours isn't a guarantee of a well-intentioned person. SIDA badges can and should be valid around the clock, what needs more scrutiny is who they can be given to in the first place.
 
 
Passedv1
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:27 am

MatthewDB wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Sure...why not?

If a plane is not parked nose first at a gate, anybcommercial plane is stealable.

Pull the chocks, start the engines and go.


Much less likely - you can’t enter a larger plane, much less an A380, without stairs. A Q400 does not need external stairs to get in. With a larger plane, you either need an accomplice to drive the stairs away or you have to crash into them and hope they fall the right way/don’t damage the aircraft badly. Maybe a 737 COULD work, but anything with more ground clearance needs stairs to get in. Or a very tall ladder if you manage to get one there.


I know reverse thrust is not authorized as a powerback on any modern aircraft, but is it possible? Will full reverse thrust back an airplane? If it was possible, that could allow a single person to back away from a set of airstairs at the front door.

Another possibility would be a scissor lift catering truck, with a jury rigged remote lowering control to drop it down to the ground where one could pull forward and let it pass under the horizontal stabalizer.


Power-backs are most certainly allowed by many modern aircraft. Yes...reverse will eventually get any airplane moving backwards.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am

For the people speculating about power-backs - it's already been confirmed that he used a tow truck to turn the plane around.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:51 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
How much harder would it have been to take an Airbus or Boeing? Would that have even been possible?

As had been discussed earlier, I'd bet anyone comfortable with the PMDG 737 could get a real one from cold and dark to airborne.
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BWIAirport
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:01 pm

rg828 wrote:
How about putting some type of movable barrier around critical areas of an airport that can be controlled by the folks at the tower. You know, like those metal cylinders that shoot out from the ground in some garages.
If you had some of those at a runway threshold or in other critical locations a tower/ground controller could effectively block any aircraft from moving around causing havoc.
That could have prevented the guy from leaving the cargo apron or even denied him entry to the active runway.
Sounds simpler than codes etc...
Just a thought

I can already envision a significant delay because one of them got stuck in the "up" position, intended to prevent a problem that happens once a decade.
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aviationaware
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:04 pm

cougar15 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Sure...why not?

If a plane is not parked nose first at a gate, anybcommercial plane is stealable.

Pull the chocks, start the engines and go.


Much less likely - you can’t enter a larger plane, much less an A380, without stairs. A Q400 does not need external stairs to get in. With a larger plane, you either need an accomplice to drive the stairs away or you have to crash into them and hope they fall the right way/don’t damage the aircraft badly. Maybe a 737 COULD work, but anything with more ground clearance needs stairs to get in. Or a very tall ladder if you manage to get one there.



Utter rubbish, easy to get into through the gearwell & avionics bay on any widebody. There is a video on youtube of an LH A346 Pilot at JFK holding at the RW stopbars, telling ATC he needs to exit the aircraft to close an open latch. He did just that, thru the NLG well, closed the latch, climbed back on and 5 minutes later they took off.
off topic, but all this talk that this is a regional problem ´only´ is just crap, could happen with any AC type.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fs9HcdhUFI


Are you sure that door is operable from the outside?
 
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ricport
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:49 pm

Very glad this troubled man did not take anyone else with him.

On a lighter note, I must confess that IMO, one less clunky turboprop in the world isn't a bad thing.
 
Owlmaniac
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:26 pm

neomax wrote:
SIDA badges can and should be valid around the clock, what needs more scrutiny is who they can be given to in the first place.


You can't screen for all eventualities, people can become mentally ill without warning. I don't think it's fair to either and it won't prevent this sort of occurrence from happening anyway. Some doctors already say (two have in public) that due to discrimination it's better not to disclose a mental health problem to employers and people will and do actively avoid seeing a doctor because of how these records may impact their life. It already does - serious mental health problems can affect retention of a drivers license and I know at least two countries that ask about it on their visa applications. What we need to do is make it easier (and more appealing) for people to get the help they need.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:45 pm

GoSteelers wrote:
If anyone wants to go rouge and turn onto the runway and take off they are going to do it and we in the tower can’t do anything about it other than tell the desk and the appropriate authorities. If the same American maintenance guy who for the last five years sounds the same and calls with the same request as he has every day, why wouldn’t we give him approval without thinking twice.

Wouldn't it be better if the aircraft software knew the operator was a mechanic only authorized for taxi and didn't allow him/her enough thrust to "go rogue"?

As above, I think we can do better than the current situation, but putting ATC in charge is problematic.

I think the airline can send the current security codes through secure networks directly to the aircraft so they can be updated regularly. The operators log in and the airplane grants appropriate privileges and no more

Yes, nothing is guaranteed to be hack proof, but what we have right now is nothing at all.

T prop wrote:
A retired airline pilot said there's a saying among them: For any airplane - If you can start it you can fly it.

Yep, currently all the authorization you need is to get yourself into the cockpit with enough knowledge to start the plane and it's off to the races.

MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


It's already happened to a RQ-170 over Iran.

Even if that happened as Iran (ahem) claimed, what do you think the response would be?

A) "Yep, they really got us that time, but they're just lucky a-rabs and they'll never do anything like that again, so let's forget about it"

-- or --

B) "Let's take a good look at how this could happen, and harden the systems"

I would expect the technology and security that the US military can apply to a small number of drones is vastly more complex than what would be viable for the 23,000 aircraft in service worldwide.

Edit to add: The other factor is that when scaling the technology to vastly more aircraft worldwide, you exponentially expand the number of people around the world that you have to trust with the knowledge of how to hack it.

It's 2018 not 2011 or 2001. Time marches on. It used to be easy to jail break an iPhone, then it got more difficult, and now it's next to impossible. The guy at the kiosk in the mall can't jail break your phone like he could a decade or so ago. Hacking will never be eliminated, but year by year the bar gets raised. It's kind of silly that aircraft don't have anything like basic authentication and authorization. It's kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two hacking events and decide that all attempts at security are futile.

All it will take is someone whose psychotic break leads them to fly the plane into a stadium or a building instead of taking a joy ride and crashing into a forest, and all this will change.

Either that, or a few insurance companies saying "we won't insure your aircraft until you implement basic authentication and authorization functions".
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two hacking events and decide that all attempts at security are futile.


Kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two aircraft stealing incidents and decide that we need to have some over the top security systems that could prove to be more trouble that good.
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32andBelow
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
If anyone wants to go rouge and turn onto the runway and take off they are going to do it and we in the tower can’t do anything about it other than tell the desk and the appropriate authorities. If the same American maintenance guy who for the last five years sounds the same and calls with the same request as he has every day, why wouldn’t we give him approval without thinking twice.

Wouldn't it be better if the aircraft software knew the operator was a mechanic only authorized for taxi and didn't allow him/her enough thrust to "go rogue"?

As above, I think we can do better than the current situation, but putting ATC in charge is problematic.

I think the airline can send the current security codes through secure networks directly to the aircraft so they can be updated regularly. The operators log in and the airplane grants appropriate privileges and no more

Yes, nothing is guaranteed to be hack proof, but what we have right now is nothing at all.

T prop wrote:
A retired airline pilot said there's a saying among them: For any airplane - If you can start it you can fly it.

Yep, currently all the authorization you need is to get yourself into the cockpit with enough knowledge to start the plane and it's off to the races.

MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


It's already happened to a RQ-170 over Iran.

Even if that happened as Iran (ahem) claimed, what do you think the response would be?

A) "Yep, they really got us that time, but they're just lucky a-rabs and they'll never do anything like that again, so let's forget about it"

-- or --

B) "Let's take a good look at how this could happen, and harden the systems"

I would expect the technology and security that the US military can apply to a small number of drones is vastly more complex than what would be viable for the 23,000 aircraft in service worldwide.

Edit to add: The other factor is that when scaling the technology to vastly more aircraft worldwide, you exponentially expand the number of people around the world that you have to trust with the knowledge of how to hack it.

It's 2018 not 2011 or 2001. Time marches on. It used to be easy to jail break an iPhone, then it got more difficult, and now it's next to impossible. The guy at the kiosk in the mall can't jail break your phone like he could a decade or so ago. Hacking will never be eliminated, but year by year the bar gets raised. It's kind of silly that aircraft don't have anything like basic authentication and authorization. It's kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two hacking events and decide that all attempts at security are futile.

All it will take is someone whose psychotic break leads them to fly the plane into a stadium or a building instead of taking a joy ride and crashing into a forest, and all this will change.

Either that, or a few insurance companies saying "we won't insure your aircraft until you implement basic authentication and authorization functions".

You don’t want the mechanic to have the ability to do a full power run up after like an engine change? Or to diagnose a power issue?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:36 pm

32andBelow wrote:
You don’t want the mechanic to have the ability to do a full power run up after like an engine change? Or to diagnose a power issue?

Both would be allowed for person who logs in with mechanic credentials and would be enabled while ground speed is zero.
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:39 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two hacking events and decide that all attempts at security are futile.

Kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two aircraft stealing incidents and decide that we need to have some over the top security systems that could prove to be more trouble that good.

What you call "over the top" I call "similar security to that which is found on an iphone or macbook".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two hacking events and decide that all attempts at security are futile.

Kind of silly that a.net members learn of one or two aircraft stealing incidents and decide that we need to have some over the top security systems that could prove to be more trouble that good.

What you call "over the top" I call "similar security to that which is found on an iphone or macbook".


What you call security is what I call over reacting after one incident but hey I just work with planes :white:
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catiii
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:58 pm

T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
T prop wrote:
Future airplanes should have two pilots, one in the airplane and the other at a ground control station..Steal the airplane or deviate? and sorry, ground pilot has the airplane. Earthquake wrecks the ground station? Ok, sky pilot has it.


What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


They have. The Iranians grabbed a Sentinel.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:04 pm

Mythic Pacific NW aviation figures: D B Cooper, The Bare Foot Bandit, and what will we call this? The three share a certain lack of malice, no collateral injuries or deaths. Criminal behavior, an odd resistance against the system (ineffective of course), but in all three an adventuresome story line which is lacking in most crimes.
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trnswrld
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 pm

What would things have been like in the cargo/maintenance area where this Q400 was parked at that time? Would it have had enough personnel walking around to where he had to really watch what he was doing or would it have been pretty dead and doing what he did was relatively easy without raising any eye brows?
So they say he towed the aircraft to get it into a position where he could taxi it. So either there wasn’t much going on at that time, or maybe his job position there and doing what he was doing would have appeared normal to most others. I also wonder if he was impaired by alcohol and drugs and stumbling around a bit. You would think he had to have his bearings somewhat straight to pull off what he did.

Although I think his mind was in another state, that has got to be a really strange feeling being up in a commercial airliner all by yourself that you just stoled and that you really don’t even know how to fly.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:40 pm

catiii wrote:
T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.

They have. The Iranians grabbed a Sentinel.

Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%8 ... 0_incident ) says back in 2011:

A Christian Science Monitor article relates an Iranian engineer's assertion that the drone was captured by jamming both satellite and land-originated control signals to the UAV, followed up by a GPS spoofing attack that fed the UAV false GPS data to make it land in Iran at what the drone thought was its home base in Afghanistan. Stephen Trimble from Flight Global assumes UAV guidance could be targeted by 1L222 Avtobaza radar jamming and deception system supplied to Iran by Russia.[17] In an interview for Nova, U.S. retired Lt. General David Deptula also said "There was a problem with the aircraft and it landed in an area it wasn't supposed to land".[18][19]

American aeronautical engineers dispute this, pointing out that as is the case with the MQ-1 Predator, the MQ-9 Reaper, and the Tomahawk, "GPS is not the primary navigation sensor for the RQ-170... The vehicle gets its flight path orders from an inertial navigation system".[20] Inertial navigation continues to be used on military aircraft despite the advent of GPS because GPS signal jamming and spoofing are relatively simple operations.[21]

So, while it's clear a RQ-170 was downed, it's not clear how it was done, and it should be clear that neither the US or Iranian side wants you to know how it was done.

It should also be clear that some of the things being discussed here wouldn't use the same technologies as were used before 2011 and the industry awareness around hacking is not the same as it might have been in 2011.
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
What you call security is what I call over reacting after one incident but hey I just work with planes :white:

How many incidents does it take for someone who "works with planes" to decide a reaction is needed, like considering how far behind the state of the arit aircraft are with regard to security?

From my point of view, it seems like one possible (or even probable) hack of one military drone seven years ago has made many people over react to the threat of hacking.

Given I "work with computer security" maybe I should waive a flag or tell everyone how I have a large penis...
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N212R
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Mythic Pacific NW aviation figures: D B Cooper, The Bare Foot Bandit, and what will we call this? The three share a certain lack of malice, no collateral injuries or deaths. Criminal behavior, an odd resistance against the system (ineffective of course), but in all three an adventuresome story line which is lacking in most crimes.


http://www.historylink.org/File/9043

Not an aviation story but an amazing story with a NW background.
 
catiii
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:10 pm

Revelation wrote:

It should also be clear that some of the things being discussed here wouldn't use the same technologies as were used before 2011 and the industry awareness around hacking is not the same as it might have been in 2011.


As evidenced by recent national events, the awareness around hacking and the response thereof is worse than it was in 2011.
 
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:16 pm

catiii wrote:
Revelation wrote:

It should also be clear that some of the things being discussed here wouldn't use the same technologies as were used before 2011 and the industry awareness around hacking is not the same as it might have been in 2011.


As evidenced by recent national events, the awareness around hacking and the response thereof is worse than it was in 2011.

Huh? I don't see the correlation between elections being influenced by (perhaps illegal) use of social media vs anything we're discussing here.
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estorilm
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:17 pm

aden23 wrote:
Can someone explain why they didn’t shoot this plane down immediately?

It’s a confirmed hijacked plane, flown erratically by a suicidal man over innocent people. What exactly were they waiting for?

I haven't heard much of any mention of the F-15C's guided to intercept this guy from NORAD, but they were there in almost no time - and told to start a covert trail 2-3 miles behind him while most of the ATC you've heard was happening.

The "pilot" that was talking to him is one of the F-15 pilots actually.

Also - after they confirmed the crash, they were told to go "weapons secured" - so presumably on departure they were already cleared weapons hot based on their training / ROI for an intercept target.

One was busy communicating with NORAD, ATC, relays, and Rich, sounds like the other guy was just waiting to pull the trigger.

The entire time they relayed altitude, heading, etc, while listening to ATC trying to keep him away from populated land and busy airspace.

There was NO reason to blow this guy out of the sky. :roll:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As if a plane, once shot down, won’t crash into the very populace you presume to be protecting. Orders to fire are clearly defined and accountable. I do tend agree that, by shooting him down, it might be a disincentive for copycats, knowing doing so is a death sentence. But, do we need this disincentive?

GF

Nah, I think the speed at which those F-15s were on his tail and cleared for engagement is basically a nearly-equal deterrent. Of course the media isn't focusing on ANY positive side of this at all. They SLAM past incidents when high publicity targets weren't intercepted immediately, then totally ignore it when these guys had a lock in something like 13 minutes from the time ATC picked up the phone. (Which is SPECTACULAR and I'm really proud of those guys too!)

QuarkFly wrote:
Hmmm, hope you cant "steal" a 777 or A380 just as easily as a Q400 !!

Hopefully just a bad show by the folks at AS and SeaTac...not an aviation-wide problem.

And what is it with pilot suicides?...Egyptair 767 over the Atlantic -- the Germanwings A320 in the Alps...just frickin jump off a bridge. Why take a plane, and worse, passengers with you !!


Pretty ignorant post.
There are thousands of ops and procedures carried out at hundreds of airports around the country, via tens of thousands of employees that we trust our lives to on a daily basis. Most have the ability to do something like this, or worse - with pax involved. It's just not something worth thinking about, it is what it is. Pay sucks but most of the people I know feel their jobs are rewarding at the end of the day. Lord knows there's plenty of other (easier / less stressful) jobs out there that pay the same or better.

AS and SeaTac did nothing wrong - they made numerous calls to the aircraft prior to TO. Also it wasn't located at a gate, it was at a maint ramp where I'd imagine ground controllers don't take much notice to movements and there's no gate or ground staff watching where the thing was going - indeed someone said the aircraft was done for the day anyways.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
usxguy wrote:
If its even remotely possible to say something positive about this, I bet BBD is anxious to get their hands on the data recorders so they can see exactly how much force the plane can handle - he did a lot of maneuvers you don't put those planes in.


I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


I rather doubt BBD flight test has done aerobatics in the Q and I know some of those guys—pros.

GF

Without being morbid, this popped into my head pretty quick.

Ironically, a friend of mine flies unlimited aerobatics (MX-S) AND flies the Q400 for a defense contractor (R&D / 'who knows' stuff inside) - interesting combo of experience in this situation. He saw the video and was a little surprised the wings didn't snap off on the bottom of that "loop".

I assume the Q400's FDR is advanced enough to record +/- G loading?


Also why do people keep saying he was a mechanic? I thought he was confirmed to be a customer service agent or whatever their official title is at Horizon?

Personally I think it's all really sad. I'm not going to squash the guy for "potentially risking hundreds of lives" or say that "we need to turn the entire staff-access / security protocol system upside down to prevent this" either. This whole thing is just a mess, but I see it as the golden BB that'll impact the industry every now and then. As long as it's run by humans, you can't cut this stuff out 100%. Even if you limit and/or monitor ramper / mech / staff access, the pilots can still do it. The only difference is that there tends to be a couple hundred people behind them when they do. I don't see unmanned commercial aviation in my future (or lifetime) so let's just focus on the human / mental factors at play here and try to help some of these people. He sounded like a good dude. :shakehead:
 
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:34 pm

I'd like to second the earlier request to change the thread title. "Alaska employee" world be arguable since Horizon flies in Alaska livery, but AS is a very specific organization, and this is a group that prides itself on getting the details correct, especially in events when the media often does not.

If the thread title is going to cite a 2 letter code, let it be QX.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:45 pm

A transport category plane is certified for +2.5G/-0.5, a loop or barrel roll is quite possible within +2.5G especially in a light and overpowered Q400. A barrel roll, even a sloppy one, shouldn’t involve negative G.

The “weapons secure” call is just confirmation all switchology is safed. On alert, real weapons are loaded, the cannon is armed; all the pilots need to do is place the armament switches to hot to use them. The crew chief will pull the safety pins as the alert is sounded.

GF
 
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:47 pm

estorilm wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Can someone explain why they didn’t shoot this plane down immediately?

It’s a confirmed hijacked plane, flown erratically by a suicidal man over innocent people. What exactly were they waiting for?

I haven't heard much of any mention of the F-15C's guided to intercept this guy from NORAD, but they were there in almost no time - and told to start a covert trail 2-3 miles behind him while most of the ATC you've heard was happening.

The "pilot" that was talking to him is one of the F-15 pilots actually.

Also - after they confirmed the crash, they were told to go "weapons secured" - so presumably on departure they were already cleared weapons hot based on their training / ROI for an intercept target.

One was busy communicating with NORAD, ATC, relays, and Rich, sounds like the other guy was just waiting to pull the trigger.

The entire time they relayed altitude, heading, etc, while listening to ATC trying to keep him away from populated land and busy airspace.

There was NO reason to blow this guy out of the sky. :roll:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As if a plane, once shot down, won’t crash into the very populace you presume to be protecting. Orders to fire are clearly defined and accountable. I do tend agree that, by shooting him down, it might be a disincentive for copycats, knowing doing so is a death sentence. But, do we need this disincentive?

GF

Nah, I think the speed at which those F-15s were on his tail and cleared for engagement is basically a nearly-equal deterrent. Of course the media isn't focusing on ANY positive side of this at all. They SLAM past incidents when high publicity targets weren't intercepted immediately, then totally ignore it when these guys had a lock in something like 13 minutes from the time ATC picked up the phone. (Which is SPECTACULAR and I'm really proud of those guys too!)

QuarkFly wrote:
Hmmm, hope you cant "steal" a 777 or A380 just as easily as a Q400 !!

Hopefully just a bad show by the folks at AS and SeaTac...not an aviation-wide problem.

And what is it with pilot suicides?...Egyptair 767 over the Atlantic -- the Germanwings A320 in the Alps...just frickin jump off a bridge. Why take a plane, and worse, passengers with you !!


Pretty ignorant post.
There are thousands of ops and procedures carried out at hundreds of airports around the country, via tens of thousands of employees that we trust our lives to on a daily basis. Most have the ability to do something like this, or worse - with pax involved. It's just not something worth thinking about, it is what it is. Pay sucks but most of the people I know feel their jobs are rewarding at the end of the day. Lord knows there's plenty of other (easier / less stressful) jobs out there that pay the same or better.

AS and SeaTac did nothing wrong - they made numerous calls to the aircraft prior to TO. Also it wasn't located at a gate, it was at a maint ramp where I'd imagine ground controllers don't take much notice to movements and there's no gate or ground staff watching where the thing was going - indeed someone said the aircraft was done for the day anyways.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


I rather doubt BBD flight test has done aerobatics in the Q and I know some of those guys—pros.

GF

Without being morbid, this popped into my head pretty quick.

Ironically, a friend of mine flies unlimited aerobatics (MX-S) AND flies the Q400 for a defense contractor (R&D / 'who knows' stuff inside) - interesting combo of experience in this situation. He saw the video and was a little surprised the wings didn't snap off on the bottom of that "loop".

I assume the Q400's FDR is advanced enough to record +/- G loading?


Also why do people keep saying he was a mechanic? I thought he was confirmed to be a customer service agent or whatever their official title is at Horizon?

Personally I think it's all really sad. I'm not going to squash the guy for "potentially risking hundreds of lives" or say that "we need to turn the entire staff-access / security protocol system upside down to prevent this" either. This whole thing is just a mess, but I see it as the golden BB that'll impact the industry every now and then. As long as it's run by humans, you can't cut this stuff out 100%. Even if you limit and/or monitor ramper / mech / staff access, the pilots can still do it. The only difference is that there tends to be a couple hundred people behind them when they do. I don't see unmanned commercial aviation in my future (or lifetime) so let's just focus on the human / mental factors at play here and try to help some of these people. He sounded like a good dude. :shakehead:



Are you sure the pilot talking to him was the F-15 pilot? I heard from the ground controller feed when asked by a Delta pilot when the airplane in front of him was going to move out of the way so he could return to the gate, the controller said something to the effect of “that airplane in front of you is currently talking to an airplane in the air, so probably not soon”
 
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:52 pm

estorilm wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Can someone explain why they didn’t shoot this plane down immediately?

It’s a confirmed hijacked plane, flown erratically by a suicidal man over innocent people. What exactly were they waiting for?

I haven't heard much of any mention of the F-15C's guided to intercept this guy from NORAD, but they were there in almost no time - and told to start a covert trail 2-3 miles behind him while most of the ATC you've heard was happening.

The "pilot" that was talking to him is one of the F-15 pilots actually.

Also - after they confirmed the crash, they were told to go "weapons secured" - so presumably on departure they were already cleared weapons hot based on their training / ROI for an intercept target.

One was busy communicating with NORAD, ATC, relays, and Rich, sounds like the other guy was just waiting to pull the trigger.

The entire time they relayed altitude, heading, etc, while listening to ATC trying to keep him away from populated land and busy airspace.

There was NO reason to blow this guy out of the sky. :roll:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As if a plane, once shot down, won’t crash into the very populace you presume to be protecting. Orders to fire are clearly defined and accountable. I do tend agree that, by shooting him down, it might be a disincentive for copycats, knowing doing so is a death sentence. But, do we need this disincentive?

GF

Nah, I think the speed at which those F-15s were on his tail and cleared for engagement is basically a nearly-equal deterrent. Of course the media isn't focusing on ANY positive side of this at all. They SLAM past incidents when high publicity targets weren't intercepted immediately, then totally ignore it when these guys had a lock in something like 13 minutes from the time ATC picked up the phone. (Which is SPECTACULAR and I'm really proud of those guys too!)

QuarkFly wrote:
Hmmm, hope you cant "steal" a 777 or A380 just as easily as a Q400 !!

Hopefully just a bad show by the folks at AS and SeaTac...not an aviation-wide problem.

And what is it with pilot suicides?...Egyptair 767 over the Atlantic -- the Germanwings A320 in the Alps...just frickin jump off a bridge. Why take a plane, and worse, passengers with you !!


Pretty ignorant post.
There are thousands of ops and procedures carried out at hundreds of airports around the country, via tens of thousands of employees that we trust our lives to on a daily basis. Most have the ability to do something like this, or worse - with pax involved. It's just not something worth thinking about, it is what it is. Pay sucks but most of the people I know feel their jobs are rewarding at the end of the day. Lord knows there's plenty of other (easier / less stressful) jobs out there that pay the same or better.

AS and SeaTac did nothing wrong - they made numerous calls to the aircraft prior to TO. Also it wasn't located at a gate, it was at a maint ramp where I'd imagine ground controllers don't take much notice to movements and there's no gate or ground staff watching where the thing was going - indeed someone said the aircraft was done for the day anyways.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

I think some of the BBD test pilots have already done some of these with the Q400 during flight testing.


I rather doubt BBD flight test has done aerobatics in the Q and I know some of those guys—pros.

GF

Without being morbid, this popped into my head pretty quick.

Ironically, a friend of mine flies unlimited aerobatics (MX-S) AND flies the Q400 for a defense contractor (R&D / 'who knows' stuff inside) - interesting combo of experience in this situation. He saw the video and was a little surprised the wings didn't snap off on the bottom of that "loop".

I assume the Q400's FDR is advanced enough to record +/- G loading?


Also why do people keep saying he was a mechanic? I thought he was confirmed to be a customer service agent or whatever their official title is at Horizon?

Personally I think it's all really sad. I'm not going to squash the guy for "potentially risking hundreds of lives" or say that "we need to turn the entire staff-access / security protocol system upside down to prevent this" either. This whole thing is just a mess, but I see it as the golden BB that'll impact the industry every now and then. As long as it's run by humans, you can't cut this stuff out 100%. Even if you limit and/or monitor ramper / mech / staff access, the pilots can still do it. The only difference is that there tends to be a couple hundred people behind them when they do. I don't see unmanned commercial aviation in my future (or lifetime) so let's just focus on the human / mental factors at play here and try to help some of these people. He sounded like a good dude. :shakehead:


"Ground Services Agent". The media initially was incorrectly told "mechanic" and had run with that.

Also I'm pretty sure yes, one of the f-15 pilots was talking to him. They remarked on his aerobatic stunt. ATC and pilots on the ground at seatac definitely could not have seen that.
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:59 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... rop-heist/

A good and accurate summary of the flight and roles of the two fighter jets, and as well early discussions of airport security.

It goes without saying, except for certain a-nutters that this was a serious security breach.
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Heinkel
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:11 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Are you sure that door is operable from the outside?


Every door must be operable from the outside. Otherwise a crew member must stay in the a/c all the time. Or there must be another access hatch. Which the thief can use, too.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:12 pm

Ahhh so that explains what Rich meant when he kept saying “hey pilot guy”. In the recordings I listened to all you hear is the Seattle controller and no one else. If available, a link to full audio would be awesome!

Found it.

No found it....wow!!

https://youtu.be/sZC8de10mq0
Last edited by trnswrld on Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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9MMPQ
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:15 pm

aviationaware wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Much less likely - you can’t enter a larger plane, much less an A380, without stairs. A Q400 does not need external stairs to get in. With a larger plane, you either need an accomplice to drive the stairs away or you have to crash into them and hope they fall the right way/don’t damage the aircraft badly. Maybe a 737 COULD work, but anything with more ground clearance needs stairs to get in. Or a very tall ladder if you manage to get one there.



Utter rubbish, easy to get into through the gearwell & avionics bay on any widebody. There is a video on youtube of an LH A346 Pilot at JFK holding at the RW stopbars, telling ATC he needs to exit the aircraft to close an open latch. He did just that, thru the NLG well, closed the latch, climbed back on and 5 minutes later they took off.
off topic, but all this talk that this is a regional problem ´only´ is just crap, could happen with any AC type.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fs9HcdhUFI


Are you sure that door is operable from the outside?


With all the overreactions i'm probably going to regret this one :mrgreen: but it certainly is on the Boeings and i wouldn't expect it any different on Airbus.

Saved me a delay on a few occasions, fun way to pop up on the maindeck.
Last edited by 9MMPQ on Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
What you call security is what I call over reacting after one incident but hey I just work with planes :white:

How many incidents does it take for someone who "works with planes" to decide a reaction is needed, like considering how far behind the state of the arit aircraft are with regard to security?

From my point of view, it seems like one possible (or even probable) hack of one military drone seven years ago has made many people over react to the threat of hacking.

Given I "work with computer security" maybe I should waive a flag or tell everyone how I have a large penis...


Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

This trend of “let’s ban things” or “let’s secure things or x or y” is detracting from the real problems here which are more and more people are dealing with mental health issues and they need to be treated correctly. They need help and our planes don’t need a 4 digit password like some cheap apple product.

As for your last line, you’re entitled to bring in as much immaturity to this discussion, but I really don’t see the need for it.
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:27 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/sea-tac-officials-airlines-to-meet-monday-to-discuss-security-protocols-after-turboprop-heist/

A good and accurate summary of the flight and roles of the two fighter jets, and as well early discussions of airport security.

It goes without saying, except for certain a-nutters that this was a serious security breach.

It was pretty good with regard to the security discussion. One set of quotes said:

Price said he believes airlines need to put more complexity into the process of starting up an aircraft, such as programming the systems to require a code or sequence to start.

and others saying the outcome may be that there's no benefit to doing that, and another saying to not over-react to one incident.

It also mentioned the mental health aspect. I'm sure improvements could be made, but I wonder how effective or reliable such improvements would be.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Redwood839
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/sea-tac-officials-airlines-to-meet-monday-to-discuss-security-protocols-after-turboprop-heist/

A good and accurate summary of the flight and roles of the two fighter jets, and as well early discussions of airport security.

It goes without saying, except for certain a-nutters that this was a serious security breach.

It was pretty good with regard to the security discussion. One set of quotes said:

Price said he believes airlines need to put more complexity into the process of starting up an aircraft, such as programming the systems to require a code or sequence to start.

and others saying the outcome may be that there's no benefit to doing that, and another saying to not over-react to one incident.

It also mentioned the mental health aspect. I'm sure improvements could be made, but I wonder how effective or reliable such improvements would be.


There is a sequence to starting these up. Quite complex one too unless you have a checklist or familiar with the aircraft. You can't just hop in and hit CTRL+E and get it running.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:56 pm

As I discussed earlier, what can be done to reduce the small chances of this occurring again. Putting in devices to require a code input to start a plane just adds another series of potentially complex issues. US ADA law limits investigation of job applicants as to mental health problems, even random drug testing presents issues.

I suggested earlier that fellow employees must 'see something - say something', if see an unusual behavior of a fellow worker, or if that plane should not have been moved then, then report to their supervisor, airport security or police. Supervisors must keep track of what their staff must be or allowed to do. One other idea is to require any airplane moving for mx work by a non-pilot in areas not adjacent to the hangers or parking areas must be accompanied by airport security escorts.

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