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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:00 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

Pilots are supposed to have full command of the aircraft. The tow crew does not need nor should they have full command of the aircraft. See the difference?

CFM565A1 wrote:
This trend of “let’s ban things” or “let’s secure things or x or y” is detracting from the real problems here which are more and more people are dealing with mental health issues and they need to be treated correctly. They need help and our planes don’t need a 4 digit password like some cheap apple product.

You know, we could decide both are good ideas and we should do both. Doing one does not preclude doing the other.

As above, I'm not sure if lots of mental health care would have prevented this situation, just like lots of mental health care in the end did not help the Germanwings pilot. The GW pilot was being told he had major mental health issues, yet he didn't report them as required and he continued to work even though he was being told he should not be working. Then we consider borderline cases: where do you draw the line and decide someone is not fit to fly? It's hard to get that call right. You're telling someone their career is in great jeopardy if not over. Of course they're not going to want to hear that, and are going to do all kinds of things to avoid dealing with the idea that their career might be over.

CFM565A1 wrote:
As for your last line, you’re entitled to bring in as much immaturity to this discussion, but I really don’t see the need for it.

Except for your waive-the-flag gesture and arrogant "I know everything because I work on planes" attitude, you may be right. People can and do learn things from people in different disciplines. You and others keep stomping on things as if you are allergic to ideas. This is a discussion forum. Let's discuss.
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estorilm
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:04 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
estorilm wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Can someone explain why they didn’t shoot this plane down immediately?

It’s a confirmed hijacked plane, flown erratically by a suicidal man over innocent people. What exactly were they waiting for?

I haven't heard much of any mention of the F-15C's guided to intercept this guy from NORAD, but they were there in almost no time - and told to start a covert trail 2-3 miles behind him while most of the ATC you've heard was happening.

The "pilot" that was talking to him is one of the F-15 pilots actually.

Also - after they confirmed the crash, they were told to go "weapons secured" - so presumably on departure they were already cleared weapons hot based on their training / ROI for an intercept target.

One was busy communicating with NORAD, ATC, relays, and Rich, sounds like the other guy was just waiting to pull the trigger.

The entire time they relayed altitude, heading, etc, while listening to ATC trying to keep him away from populated land and busy airspace.

There was NO reason to blow this guy out of the sky. :roll:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As if a plane, once shot down, won’t crash into the very populace you presume to be protecting. Orders to fire are clearly defined and accountable. I do tend agree that, by shooting him down, it might be a disincentive for copycats, knowing doing so is a death sentence. But, do we need this disincentive?

GF

Nah, I think the speed at which those F-15s were on his tail and cleared for engagement is basically a nearly-equal deterrent. Of course the media isn't focusing on ANY positive side of this at all. They SLAM past incidents when high publicity targets weren't intercepted immediately, then totally ignore it when these guys had a lock in something like 13 minutes from the time ATC picked up the phone. (Which is SPECTACULAR and I'm really proud of those guys too!)

QuarkFly wrote:
Hmmm, hope you cant "steal" a 777 or A380 just as easily as a Q400 !!

Hopefully just a bad show by the folks at AS and SeaTac...not an aviation-wide problem.

And what is it with pilot suicides?...Egyptair 767 over the Atlantic -- the Germanwings A320 in the Alps...just frickin jump off a bridge. Why take a plane, and worse, passengers with you !!


Pretty ignorant post.
There are thousands of ops and procedures carried out at hundreds of airports around the country, via tens of thousands of employees that we trust our lives to on a daily basis. Most have the ability to do something like this, or worse - with pax involved. It's just not something worth thinking about, it is what it is. Pay sucks but most of the people I know feel their jobs are rewarding at the end of the day. Lord knows there's plenty of other (easier / less stressful) jobs out there that pay the same or better.

AS and SeaTac did nothing wrong - they made numerous calls to the aircraft prior to TO. Also it wasn't located at a gate, it was at a maint ramp where I'd imagine ground controllers don't take much notice to movements and there's no gate or ground staff watching where the thing was going - indeed someone said the aircraft was done for the day anyways.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I rather doubt BBD flight test has done aerobatics in the Q and I know some of those guys—pros.

GF

Without being morbid, this popped into my head pretty quick.

Ironically, a friend of mine flies unlimited aerobatics (MX-S) AND flies the Q400 for a defense contractor (R&D / 'who knows' stuff inside) - interesting combo of experience in this situation. He saw the video and was a little surprised the wings didn't snap off on the bottom of that "loop".

I assume the Q400's FDR is advanced enough to record +/- G loading?


Also why do people keep saying he was a mechanic? I thought he was confirmed to be a customer service agent or whatever their official title is at Horizon?

Personally I think it's all really sad. I'm not going to squash the guy for "potentially risking hundreds of lives" or say that "we need to turn the entire staff-access / security protocol system upside down to prevent this" either. This whole thing is just a mess, but I see it as the golden BB that'll impact the industry every now and then. As long as it's run by humans, you can't cut this stuff out 100%. Even if you limit and/or monitor ramper / mech / staff access, the pilots can still do it. The only difference is that there tends to be a couple hundred people behind them when they do. I don't see unmanned commercial aviation in my future (or lifetime) so let's just focus on the human / mental factors at play here and try to help some of these people. He sounded like a good dude. :shakehead:



Are you sure the pilot talking to him was the F-15 pilot? I heard from the ground controller feed when asked by a Delta pilot when the airplane in front of him was going to move out of the way so he could return to the gate, the controller said something to the effect of “that airplane in front of you is currently talking to an airplane in the air, so probably not soon”

Yeah I'm almost positive. On the SeaTac freq. w/ Rich - someone said something to the effect of "Okay, congratulations, now let's talk about getting you on the ground" immediately after he performed the "loop" maneuver. There's an audio recording of just ROCK41, ROCK42, and BIGFOOT (NORAD) somewhere on YouTube. Shortly after that maneuver, the wingman was asked to relay to NORAD and ATC that he had cleared the loop at about 10' AGL (water). As a previous poster said, no one else was likely to see this in real-time on frequency.
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:44 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Ahhh so that explains what Rich meant when he kept saying “hey pilot guy”. In the recordings I listened to all you hear is the Seattle controller and no one else. If available, a link to full audio would be awesome!

Found it.

No found it....wow!!

https://youtu.be/sZC8de10mq0


That audio is really heart wrenching. In a fairytale ending, I was hoping he could have tried to land or ditch it in water if landing looked too difficult. It looks like he was beyond the point of return. Looks like he made up his mind when he got into the cockpit or when he started rolling down 16C. Either way, a sad situation.

Apologies if I sound inappropriate, but guys please get help even if you think you don't need it. There are websites and hotlines available. Talk to someone.
 
dc10co
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

Pilots are supposed to have full command of the aircraft. The tow crew does not need nor should they have full command of the aircraft. See the difference?

CFM565A1 wrote:
This trend of “let’s ban things” or “let’s secure things or x or y” is detracting from the real problems here which are more and more people are dealing with mental health issues and they need to be treated correctly. They need help and our planes don’t need a 4 digit password like some cheap apple product.

You know, we could decide both are good ideas and we should do both. Doing one does not preclude doing the other.

As above, I'm not sure if lots of mental health care would have prevented this situation, just like lots of mental health care in the end did not help the Germanwings pilot. The GW pilot was being told he had major mental health issues, yet he didn't report them as required and he continued to work even though he was being told he should not be working. Then we consider borderline cases: where do you draw the line and decide someone is not fit to fly? It's hard to get that call right. You're telling someone their career is in great jeopardy if not over. Of course they're not going to want to hear that, and are going to do all kinds of things to avoid dealing with the idea that their career might be over.

CFM565A1 wrote:
As for your last line, you’re entitled to bring in as much immaturity to this discussion, but I really don’t see the need for it.

Except for your waive-the-flag gesture and arrogant "I know everything because I work on planes" attitude, you may be right. People can and do learn things from people in different disciplines. You and others keep stomping on things as if you are allergic to ideas. This is a discussion forum. Let's discuss.

The self importance on A.net is truly astounding. This used to be a website where people’s experience in the field was respected, but these days working in the industry and knowing the in’s and outs is almost a dirty word. In a vacuum or in a world where people were snatching planes left and right your idea might be a viable or sensible solution. But in reality you have proposed an astronomically expensive solution to a problem that is virtually non existent.

The first major hurdle is that airplanes are simply not engineered to operate that way. There is no simple “let’s just slap a keypad in this thing” and be done with it. Your proposal would involve a fundamental redesign of how the airplane is wired and programmed. And this would have to be developed individually for each type of commercial airplane in service.

The second major hurdle is not only the cost of developing, testing, and installing said system on thousands of airplanes, but also the costs incurred while these airplanes are out of service having the systems installed. Then there is the cost of training not just pilots but all of the other necessary work groups who would utilize the new system on board, plus the cost of forming new departments to manage the codes issued to employees. And then there’s the added costs of maintaining the new systems and the costs incurred for maintenance or IT delays when the systems go down.

The list goes on and on as to why this is a costly, unnecessary solution to a problem that I can use one finger to count how many times it’s occurred in the US.

The only viable solution that has been brought up in this thread is the possiblity of keeping the cockpit locked when unoccupied on the ground and using key codes to enter, because that technology already exists in airplanes. But as has also been stated this would not have prevented this accident because as a part of the tow team the culprit would’ve had access to the cockpit code anyways.
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
jaxfss
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:01 pm

Today's issue of AVWEB.COM has a YOU TUBE video on how to start a Q400 for FLY BE airlines. Looks like a very simple procedure to me. They used ground power instead of the APU.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:03 pm

dc10co wrote:
Revelation wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

Pilots are supposed to have full command of the aircraft. The tow crew does not need nor should they have full command of the aircraft. See the difference?

CFM565A1 wrote:
This trend of “let’s ban things” or “let’s secure things or x or y” is detracting from the real problems here which are more and more people are dealing with mental health issues and they need to be treated correctly. They need help and our planes don’t need a 4 digit password like some cheap apple product.

You know, we could decide both are good ideas and we should do both. Doing one does not preclude doing the other.

As above, I'm not sure if lots of mental health care would have prevented this situation, just like lots of mental health care in the end did not help the Germanwings pilot. The GW pilot was being told he had major mental health issues, yet he didn't report them as required and he continued to work even though he was being told he should not be working. Then we consider borderline cases: where do you draw the line and decide someone is not fit to fly? It's hard to get that call right. You're telling someone their career is in great jeopardy if not over. Of course they're not going to want to hear that, and are going to do all kinds of things to avoid dealing with the idea that their career might be over.

CFM565A1 wrote:
As for your last line, you’re entitled to bring in as much immaturity to this discussion, but I really don’t see the need for it.

Except for your waive-the-flag gesture and arrogant "I know everything because I work on planes" attitude, you may be right. People can and do learn things from people in different disciplines. You and others keep stomping on things as if you are allergic to ideas. This is a discussion forum. Let's discuss.

The self importance on A.net is truly astounding. This used to be a website where people’s experience in the field was respected, but these days working in the industry and knowing the in’s and outs is almost a dirty word. In a vacuum or in a world where people were snatching planes left and right your idea might be a viable or sensible solution. But in reality you have proposed an astronomically expensive solution to a problem that is virtually non existent.

The first major hurdle is that airplanes are simply not engineered to operate that way. There is no simple “let’s just slap a keypad in this thing” and be done with it. Your proposal would involve a fundamental redesign of how the airplane is wired and programmed. And this would have to be developed individually for each type of commercial airplane in service.

The second major hurdle is not only the cost of developing, testing, and installing said system on thousands of airplanes, but also the costs incurred while these airplanes are out of service having the systems installed. Then there is the cost of training not just pilots but all of the other necessary work groups who would utilize the new system on board, plus the cost of forming new departments to manage the codes issued to employees. And then there’s the added costs of maintaining the new systems and the costs incurred for maintenance or IT delays when the systems go down.

The list goes on and on as to why this is a costly, unnecessary solution to a problem that I can use one finger to count how many times it’s occurred in the US.

The only viable solution that has been brought up in this thread is the possiblity of keeping the cockpit locked when unoccupied on the ground and using key codes to enter, because that technology already exists in airplanes. But as has also been stated this would not have prevented this accident because as a part of the tow team the culprit would’ve had access to the cockpit code anyways.

And, old iPhones are still easy to jail break, while new ones are now hard to jail break. Suggests to me that a better approach would be to implement such a feature on new designs and grandfather in old designs, just like A220 can auto-descend to safe altitude when cabin pressure is lost whereas older planes cannot.

BTW, why is discussing an idea a sign of disrespect?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:05 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All it will take is someone whose psychotic break leads them to fly the plane into a stadium or a building instead of taking a joy ride and crashing into a forest, and all this will change.

What if a pilot decides to do this?

As above, that's a different problem. The pilot is authorized to fly the plane, the tow crew is not.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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cloudboy
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:10 pm

No matter how much technology you put in there, someone who is determined and doesn't really care about the consequences is going to find a way in. I am amused by the idea of the threat of the fighter aircraft. Suicidal people aren't terribly threatened by threats to shoot them down.

It is a mental health issue. And it is not just diagnosing, it is about consequences. People don't get help with mental issues because the consequences of just seeking help is too high. Yes these things happen. They also happen with other systems, with other modes of transport, with other industries that are just as deadly. I think we need to focus less on fixing one particular type of vehicle than fixing the underlying problem. If the plane is too hard, they will find something else to play with.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm

cloudboy wrote:
It is a mental health issue. And it is not just diagnosing, it is about consequences. People don't get help with mental issues because the consequences of just seeking help is too high. Yes these things happen. They also happen with other systems, with other modes of transport, with other industries that are just as deadly. I think we need to focus less on fixing one particular type of vehicle than fixing the underlying problem. If the plane is too hard, they will find something else to play with.

Are you confident that the mental health issue can be fixed?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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PA110
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:26 pm

dc10co wrote:
The self importance on A.net is truly astounding. This used to be a website where people’s experience in the field was respected, but these days working in the industry and knowing the in’s and outs is almost a dirty word. In a vacuum or in a world where people were snatching planes left and right your idea might be a viable or sensible solution. But in reality you have proposed an astronomically expensive solution to a problem that is virtually non existent.


Somethings never change at A.net. Armchair wannabe CEOs and Flightsim pilots are always quick to point how how they would to do everything better than the actual professionals. Sadly they continue to drive the actual professionals away this site.
Last edited by PA110 on Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
747megatop
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
It is a mental health issue. And it is not just diagnosing, it is about consequences. People don't get help with mental issues because the consequences of just seeking help is too high. Yes these things happen. They also happen with other systems, with other modes of transport, with other industries that are just as deadly. I think we need to focus less on fixing one particular type of vehicle than fixing the underlying problem. If the plane is too hard, they will find something else to play with.

Are you confident that the mental health issue can be fixed?

Was it a mental health issue? Every time someone does something utterly dumbfoundedly crazy....it is deemed a "mental health issue". And even if was...to answer your question..no, it can't be fixed; there seem to be too many crazy people around doing dumbfoundedly crazy things.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:39 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It goes without saying, except for certain a-nutters that this was a serious security breach.

This doesn't look like a security breach to me. More like a safety breach.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:02 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
First off, you just joined today

So? There's nothing wrong with someone who joins this website to share his opinion.

BobbyPSP wrote:
and your first post has zero to do with aviation.

So? There's nothing wrong with discussing the mental health of the person who piloted this aircraft. It looks to have played a major part in this event.

An unnecessary reply of you which adds nothing to the discussion.

BobbyPSP wrote:
You’re making statements that are flawed.

This is a much better approach. We are all free to exchange points of view.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Maybe in the future they can implement technology that can prevent unauthorized use of the aircraft, like requiring a code or biometrics to access the controls of the aircraft. Maybe it’s time for FaceID!!!
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
trnswrld
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:39 pm

I read originally that he put the plane into a vertical pitch up and just went straight down...found a video that almost captures the crash , or atleast like 3 seconds before the crash and it looks like he just flew it straight and level into the ground.
I haven’t found it, but I wonder what his absolute last transmission was and how long before impact it was. On a few of the vids it appears one of the last is him saying one of his engines might be going out, but there are so many different bids it’s hard to tell.
I would have thought for sure he would have ended it doing another crazy maneuver.
 
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TWA302
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:48 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All it will take is someone whose psychotic break leads them to fly the plane into a stadium or a building instead of taking a joy ride and crashing into a forest, and all this will change.

What if a pilot decides to do this? How would you want to prevent that? With a security code?

If you really want to step up security in the United States, you'd better start prohibiting guns. That could save more than one hundred lives every day.

https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/gun-dea ... ease-2017/


Please keep this on-topic. We don't need to have any other "opinion" injected here. Thank you.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:29 pm

PA110 wrote:
Somethings never change at A.net. Armchair wannabe CEOs and Flightsim pilots are always quick to point how how they would to do everything better than the actual professionals. Sadly they continue to drive the actual professionals away this site.

Hopefully it'll drive away the ones who think the aviation world can't learn anything from any other area of specialization.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:36 pm

TWA302 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
If you really want to step up security in the United States, you'd better start prohibiting guns. That could save more than one hundred lives every day.

Please keep this on-topic. We don't need to have any other "opinion" injected here. Thank you.

You're probably right. But after reading many pages about what measures should be taken to prevent a similar (very rare) accident happening again in the future, I felt the need to put things in perspective.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:10 pm

My opinion: Rich had long planned this stunt, and waited for an opportunity, i.e., an unscheduled a/c on the cargo 1 ramp. I don't think his final flight was the first time he had done a cold start. Given his discipline in learning the Q on sims, I would be very surprised if he had not hung out with QX mechanics doing cold starts, repos. What he didn't know how to do is a powerback. I think AS and QX would be wise to set a policy about who can watch cold starts, or even more broadly, who can be in the cockpit.

My suggestion for improved security: monitored, live cockpit video of RONs and other idle a/c on ground. If department stores and office buildings can live monitor shelves of tchotchkes and empty nighttime hallways, operators can do it for planes on ground. Much better than PKI, 2FA, etc. And you get video of any perps. Instead of ATC asking for the callsign of the a/c on 16C, ATC gets a call from the operator's monitoring center (which could be airport or regional based) of "possible unauthorized cockpit entry, dispatch security to cargo 1 ramp, tail number xxxx."

The video system is disabled/enabled at 10K AGL. Can't have an Orwellian cockpit.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:18 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
monitored, live cockpit video of RONs and other idle a/c on ground. If department stores and office buildings can live monitor shelves of tchotchkes and empty nighttime hallways, operators can do it for planes on ground. Much better than PKI, 2FA, etc. And you get video of any perps.

The video system is disabled/enabled at FL10. Can't have an Orwellian cockpit.

Well if we introduce cameras into cockpits I see no reason to turn them off in flight. Would have helped analyse the Germanwings accident, and probably some others.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:19 pm

He sounded like a man totally bored and disappointed in his life. Some lowly paid guy that sees the romantic idea of flying way to far flung destinations (albeit not in a prop). He seemed to have no plan on landing. He got up there and suddenly realized that his downtrodden life was going to be far, far worse so he headed for the exits.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:22 pm

mxaxai wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
monitored, live cockpit video of RONs and other idle a/c on ground. If department stores and office buildings can live monitor shelves of tchotchkes and empty nighttime hallways, operators can do it for planes on ground. Much better than PKI, 2FA, etc. And you get video of any perps.

The video system is disabled/enabled at FL10. Can't have an Orwellian cockpit.

Well if we introduce cameras into cockpits I see no reason to turn them off in flight. Would have helped analyse the Germanwings accident, and probably some others.


When do you read newspapers and novels TPAC, then?
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:15 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
First off, you just joined today

So? There's nothing wrong with someone who joins this website to share his opinion.

BobbyPSP wrote:
and your first post has zero to do with aviation.

So? There's nothing wrong with discussing the mental health of the person who piloted this aircraft. It looks to have played a major part in this event.

An unnecessary reply of you which adds nothing to the discussion.

BobbyPSP wrote:
You’re making statements that are flawed.

This is a much better approach. We are all free to exchange points of view.


Wow. Thanks for your permission
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:46 pm

Mods. A topic title of "Updated: AS employee steals Q400 at SeaTac and crashes" would be far more accurate. No crash at SeaTac. This thread is going to be around a long time.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:55 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Mods. A topic title of "Updated: AS employee steals Q400 at SeaTac and crashes" would be far more accurate. No crash at SeaTac. This thread is going to be around a long time.

Actually a QX employee, right? And if you want mods to see your request, click on the triangle above the post and report the thread for action, because they don't read every thread.
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compensateme
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:50 am

Miamiairport wrote:
He sounded like a man totally bored and disappointed in his life. Some lowly paid guy that sees the romantic idea of flying way to far flung destinations (albeit not in a prop). He seemed to have no plan on landing. He got up there and suddenly realized that his downtrodden life was going to be far, far worse so he headed for the exits.


I doubt it was sudden. It’s extremely unlikely this was a spontaneous event — for one thing, it likely required some level of planning; for another, the will to live is incredibly strong and would’ve “kicked in” for anybody with time to think / who truly didn’t want to die. This guy definitely wanted to die - he brushed off several attempts to get him to attempt to land. Either this guy was suffering from depression or his life was falling apart (e.g. his wife was leaving him) but in a event, it wasn’t a sudden decision.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
HAWKXP
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:28 am

Do the F-15's have VHF capability? Pretty sure the q400 does not have UHF.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:44 am

747megatop wrote:
Revelation wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
It is a mental health issue. And it is not just diagnosing, it is about consequences. People don't get help with mental issues because the consequences of just seeking help is too high. Yes these things happen. They also happen with other systems, with other modes of transport, with other industries that are just as deadly. I think we need to focus less on fixing one particular type of vehicle than fixing the underlying problem. If the plane is too hard, they will find something else to play with.

Are you confident that the mental health issue can be fixed?

Was it a mental health issue? Every time someone does something utterly dumbfoundedly crazy....it is deemed a "mental health issue". And even if was...to answer your question..no, it can't be fixed; there seem to be too many crazy people around doing dumbfoundedly crazy things.


Rich said it himself when he "I'm just a broken guy with a few screws loose"........
Suicidal IS a mental health issue. 9/10 those "utterly dumbfounded crazy" events" ARE a mental health issue. There is a series problem with mental health. I work in the Industry.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:50 am

HAWKXP wrote:
Do the F-15's have VHF capability? Pretty sure the q400 does not have UHF.

I would imagine they do.
 
AirCalSNA
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:08 am

Re "mental health issue" ... This is really too vague a concept and is actually a logical fallacy ("ex post facto") as applied here. Going through a period of crisis and acting imprudently as a result may have nothing to do with mental health but instead may reflect character flaws or simple immaturity/bad judgment. Not saying that is what happened here ... I just disagree with the idea that everything bad that happens is necessarily due to a "mental health issue."
 
RobertS975
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:46 am

Since we are all supposing this or that, I suppose that the degree of post-crash fire would imply that there was still fuel on board at the time of impact. Safe assumption?
 
T prop
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:54 am

catiii wrote:
T prop wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:

What an incredible gift to terrorists! They don't even have to die to use the airplane as a weapon. Just hijack the signal, and you're in control.

That easy huh..lol. they should hijack some Reapers then.


They have. The Iranians grabbed a Sentinel.


Oh come on, enough of this. The Iranians didn't 'grab a Sentinel', what they did was hook a lot of people six years ago with thier propaganda. They have thier own Baghdad Bob's too...
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:03 am

Revelation wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

Pilots are supposed to have full command of the aircraft. The tow crew does not need nor should they have full command of the aircraft. See the difference?



CFM565A1 wrote:
This trend of “let’s ban things” or “let’s secure things or x or y” is detracting from the real problems here which are more and more people are dealing with mental health issues and they need to be treated correctly. They need help and our planes don’t need a 4 digit password like some cheap apple product.

You know, we could decide both are good ideas and we should do both. Doing one does not preclude doing the other.

As above, I'm not sure if lots of mental health care would have prevented this situation, just like lots of mental health care in the end did not help the Germanwings pilot. The GW pilot was being told he had major mental health issues, yet he didn't report them as required and he continued to work even though he was being told he should not be working. Then we consider borderline cases: where do you draw the line and decide someone is not fit to fly? It's hard to get that call right. You're telling someone their career is in great jeopardy if not over. Of course they're not going to want to hear that, and are going to do all kinds of things to avoid dealing with the idea that their career might be over.

CFM565A1 wrote:
As for your last line, you’re entitled to bring in as much immaturity to this discussion, but I really don’t see the need for it.

Except for your waive-the-flag gesture and arrogant "I know everything because I work on planes" attitude, you may be right. People can and do learn things from people in different disciplines. You and others keep stomping on things as if you are allergic to ideas. This is a discussion forum. Let's discuss.


Some companies require their ground crews to taxi planes to the hangar (including ours) no difference...

I'm stomping on your "must do" attitude because it's not well presented. You're basically demanding for a change that requires careful calculation, safety management, risk management, implementation, etc. before it can happen. What i'm saying is that one cannot just sit and say "this MUST be done" before though is put into it.
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T prop
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Re: AS Employee steals Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:17 am

Heinkel wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Are you sure that door is operable from the outside?


Every door must be operable from the outside. Otherwise a crew member must stay in the a/c all the time. Or there must be another access hatch. Which the thief can use, too.


I've worked on aircraft that have keys and can be locked up. Before leaving the aircraft, service doors and emergency exits are locked from inside the cabin then the main cabin doors are locked from the outside.
 
D L X
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:18 am

Some amazing footage here. Warning, it’s lretty intense. The camera person is definitely in fear.

https://digg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/d ... wsource=cl
 
ryanov
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:37 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
Far behind... really so then how about transit buses, metro trains, things associated with public transportation outside of aviation? Are they secure from their employees? Would your supposed security “bar raising” saves the German wings flight? Would it have stopped other examples? Nah that’s dreaming in technicolor.

Happens so often that one guy even had a movie made about him: http://www.offtherailsmovie.com

People get extra tweaked about airplanes. I guess because they are so large and fast.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:44 am

I would like to see un-edited clear camera footage of him positioning the plane going inside closing the door....and then footage of the taxying and take off. Airports are riddled with cameras!!. There is something about this story that makes NO sense.

Sorry, there are MANY things about this story that makes zero sense including no nervousness in taxying a plane at a major airport take off and flying. NO bloody way!!! So all you plane nerds on here with 100s, 1000s of hours of simulator experience. Do you honestly think you could get in a plane and casually roll it out to the runway and take off?. LMAO!!!!

Amazing how the news reporters knew about his medical history within an hour of 2 of the incident..its confidential, It's a MEDICAL record. SMH!

***** USS Richard B. Russel a US Navy submarine is/use to be? docked just miles from the crash site. Weird sharing the same exact name... WEIRD!

The family "representative" and that scene was very odd too! I could go on, but you are all discussing the wrong things. ;-)
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SQ789
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:47 am

WOW, is this similar to the 2003 727-223 Angola incident?
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ikolkyo
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:50 am

SQ789 wrote:
WOW, is this similar to the 2003 727-223 Angola incident?


Except the Q400 was communicating and on radar the entire time..
 
HAWKXP
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:56 am

32andBelow wrote:
HAWKXP wrote:
Do the F-15's have VHF capability? Pretty sure the q400 does not have UHF.

I would imagine they do.


I have tried to talk to an F-16 playing at low altitute (outside a MOA). The only way i could get him was a relay through center. This capability would answer the question if the "pilot" in the audio is the F-15 or not.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:57 am

LAXLHR wrote:
I would like to see un-edited clear camera footage of him positioning the plane going inside closing the door....and then footage of the taxying and take off. Airports are riddled with cameras!!. There is something about this story that makes NO sense.

Sorry, there are MANY things about this story that makes zero sense including no nervousness in taxying a plane at a major airport take off and flying. NO bloody way!!! So all you plane nerds on here with 100s, 1000s of hours of simulator experience. Do you honestly think you could get in a plane and casually roll it out to the runway and take off?. LMAO!!!!

Amazing how the news reporters knew about his medical history within an hour of 2 of the incident..its confidential, It's a MEDICAL record. SMH!

***** USS Richard B. Russel a US Navy submarine is/use to be? docked just miles from the crash site. Weird sharing the same exact name... WEIRD!

The family "representative" and that scene was very odd too! I could go on, but you are all discussing the wrong things. ;-)


It sounds like your tinfoil hat is securely affixed to your head...
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:59 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
Re "mental health issue" ... This is really too vague a concept and is actually a logical fallacy ("ex post facto") as applied here. Going through a period of crisis and acting imprudently as a result may have nothing to do with mental health but instead may reflect character flaws or simple immaturity/bad judgment. Not saying that is what happened here ... I just disagree with the idea that everything bad that happens is necessarily due to a "mental health issue."


I'm assuming you've listened to the atc recording. If you've ever been intimately close to someone who is bipolar, the way the guy is talking would probably strike you as manic.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:14 am

LAXLHR wrote:

***** USS Richard B. Russel a US Navy submarine is/use to be? docked just miles from the crash site. Weird sharing the same exact name... WEIRD!


She was scrapped in 2003. All decommissioned nuclear vessels due for scrapping go to Bremerton. Not that weird. Especially if his parents named him for the same guy the ship was named for.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:18 am

D L X wrote:
Some amazing footage here. Warning, it’s lretty intense. The camera person is definitely in fear.

https://digg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/d ... wsource=cl


Crazy stuff!
@DadCelo
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:23 am

HAWKXP wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
HAWKXP wrote:
Do the F-15's have VHF capability? Pretty sure the q400 does not have UHF.

I would imagine they do.


I have tried to talk to an F-16 playing at low altitute (outside a MOA). The only way i could get him was a relay through center. This capability would answer the question if the "pilot" in the audio is the F-15 or not.


F-16's have had both VHF and UHF since they came out of the factory. F-15s have all been modded to include both since I believe 2000 or earlier. They normally will use UHF interflght and to talk to ATC, but can switch to VHF if required or requested.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:31 am

HAWKXP wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
HAWKXP wrote:
Do the F-15's have VHF capability? Pretty sure the q400 does not have UHF.

I would imagine they do.


I have tried to talk to an F-16 playing at low altitute (outside a MOA). The only way i could get him was a relay through center. This capability would answer the question if the "pilot" in the audio is the F-15 or not.

It would make no sense for NORAD intercept aircraft to not be able to communicate with their target.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:52 am

dc10co wrote:
The only viable solution that has been brought up in this thread is the possiblity of keeping the cockpit locked when unoccupied on the ground and using key codes to enter, because that technology already exists in airplanes. But as has also been stated this would not have prevented this accident because as a part of the tow team the culprit would’ve had access to the cockpit code anyways.


Great, so let's throw up our hands and do nothing.

People fall into a trap of thinking because something is the way it is, that's the way it needs to be. Literally *anything* in the world can be changed short of the speed of light. We just need to decide it's important enough to do it.

And things will change because of this. You can be sure of that.
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Slug71
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:37 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
Re "mental health issue" ... This is really too vague a concept and is actually a logical fallacy ("ex post facto") as applied here. Going through a period of crisis and acting imprudently as a result may have nothing to do with mental health but instead may reflect character flaws or simple immaturity/bad judgment. Not saying that is what happened here ... I just disagree with the idea that everything bad that happens is necessarily due to a "mental health issue."


It is a mental health issue. If you had listened to the ATC recording, you can tell he's been suffering from depression. Seattle and Portland just so happen to have very high depression rates.

A "period of crisis" IS considered a mental health issue if the person is suicidal. Even if short term.
spacecadet wrote:
dc10co wrote:
The only viable solution that has been brought up in this thread is the possiblity of keeping the cockpit locked when unoccupied on the ground and using key codes to enter, because that technology already exists in airplanes. But as has also been stated this would not have prevented this accident because as a part of the tow team the culprit would’ve had access to the cockpit code anyways.


Great, so let's throw up our hands and do nothing.

People fall into a trap of thinking because something is the way it is, that's the way it needs to be. Literally *anything* in the world can be changed short of the speed of light. We just need to decide it's important enough to do it.

And things will change because of this. You can be sure of that.


If you implement a "solution" to a problem, but the solution doesn't address the root cause of the problem, then it's not really a solution.

No one is saying do nothing, but if it doesn't address the problem, then you are wasting resources and time that could be better used to actually resolve something. If it needs to be fine tuned later, then fine tune it later.
This is a pretty unique situation where the person's profession granted him opportunities (no doubt planned out ahead of time) that regular citizens wouldn't have access to.
Last edited by Slug71 on Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:51 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Isn't it standard military procedure that for certain inherently hazardous items it takes two persons to authorize activation. I imagine Boeing/Airbus/airlines are looking into this currently. Waking up a sleeping plane would be the obvious point. And the previous mentioned parties will know how this could be implemented. Right now it is suppose to be the tug and the cockpit people (?) who wake up a plane. Ground ops would give them each a one time code.


As has been noted by others already, designing these types of systems is not easy, and not always even possible. You have to take into account not just one particular case that happened in SEA, but a million other situations. How do code systems deal with power failures and resets enroute, for instance? Or how would door locks increase safety, would they prevent mechanics from entering, would they have an effect during accidents? There are a lot of questions, and I bet "the previous mentioned parties" are also well aware of the complexity and risk tradeoffs in these kinds of designs, since they have security and safety professionals.

Also, handling stairs alone has been mentioned as a barrier on this happening with larger planes. I don't see why that would be a problem, just reverse your way from your parking spot first.

At the end of the day, technical tools can be used and will be carefully considered for this and all other aviation accidents. However, there may not always be other answers than training or human or general vigilance related ones.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Updated: AS employee steals and crashes Q400 at SeaTac

Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:57 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Isn't it standard military procedure that for certain inherently hazardous items it takes two persons to authorize activation. I imagine Boeing/Airbus/airlines are looking into this currently. Waking up a sleeping plane would be the obvious point. And the previous mentioned parties will know how this could be implemented. Right now it is suppose to be the tug and the cockpit people (?) who wake up a plane. Ground ops would give them each a one time code.


As has been noted by others already, designing these types of systems is not easy, and not always even possible. You have to take into account not just one particular case that happened in SEA, but a million other situations. How do code systems deal with power failures and resets enroute, for instance? Or how would door locks increase safety, would they prevent mechanics from entering, would they have an effect during accidents? There are a lot of questions, and I bet "the previous mentioned parties" are also well aware of the complexity and risk tradeoffs in these kinds of designs, since they have security and safety professionals.

Also, handling stairs alone has been mentioned as a barrier on this happening with larger planes. I don't see why that would be a problem, just reverse your way from your parking spot first.

At the end of the day, technical tools can be used and will be carefully considered for this and all other aviation accidents. However, there may not always be other answers than training or human or general vigilance related ones.




The learjet that the guy (Pilot) in Utah just crashed into his own home is lockable, unlike a large commercial jet/transport. Yet he still ´stole´ it after a domestic and crashed it into his house. this part of the discussion is pointless and is going on and on in this thread. If someone wants to do this, they will find a way.

I am wondering if more details are coming out on ´Rich´, did he leave a suicide note, is there ramp CCTV footage etc?
some you lose, others you can´t win!

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