IWMBH
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:21 pm

Victorville is filled with planes more modern than the current Iranian fleet(s), why didn't they pick up some of them? Where they that convinced the treaty was going to hold?
 
mcg
Posts: 965
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:24 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of buying old planes from dodgy countries/brokers, maybe they just can kick out those evil Ayatollahs, become a democracy and problem solved.

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't get why Airbus allow itself to be dependant on US technology for their aircraft. They must have known that this day would come ?


Easy, the US is the most technologically advanced country in the history of humanity.


Iran is a democracy.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:45 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
neomax wrote:
Seeing how the US and the rest of the world are increasingly at odds over the Iran question, I think Iran will probably be able to get some more Airbus a/c if nothing else to demonstrate EU commitment to the nuclear deal as they spent so much time negotiating it and still want Iran to abide by it. EU's negotiating power comes from their willingness to stick to the agreed terms of the deal and thus it is in their interest to deliver these planes if they want to maintain trust. A major part of that deal concerned the Airbus order. If the EU wants to maintain its appearance as a reliable partner, they're gonna have to deliver these planes even if they don't want to if they want Iran to hold up its side of the deal. It is pretty well established that the US and Boeing dropped out of this race a long time ago. Now it's pretty much between the EU, Iran, and Airbus to figure out how to circumvent US sanctions, which is probably easier than people think.


Sure, no problem. Then again, Airbus could be embargoed from receiving US engines and components. They wouldn’t deliver another plane once the supply train was stopped. It’ll be quite some time before they develop P&W and GE engine replacements; Honeywell avionics and APUs; a boatload of smaller parts.

GF


And than the EU could put an embargo on the USA and Boeing would not deliver a single 737 for example. Every CFM be it an 56 or LEAP is build with European parts.

The 787 would also be in trouble, there are either RR engines or the GEnx and that one includes parts from MTU.

I could go on, even some USA military engines use parts from MTU. The engines on the KC-46, PW4062 has MTU parts.

I am astonished how people think that aircraft parts being a one way street. Yes the USA could close down Airbus, but the EU could than close down Boeing. Mutual agreed upon destruction. It needs a certain kind of ignorance thinking that economic war is a good thing.


I worked for an aircraft manufacturer; I was and am constantly made aware of the international aspect of aviation. I don’t even think this sanction regime is the ideal solution, but it’s US law and supported across the US political spectrum. Obama could have made it US law by Senate ratification, but couldn’t make it happen levaving open Trump’s move.

If Airbus elected to disregard its legal team, the politicians and its bankers, all of whom support Airbus in their observance of US sanctions; they’d be breaking the law. Trying to enlist EU support for counter-sanctions on ?Boeing would not happen and possibly illegal.

GF
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8374
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Sure, no problem. Then again, Airbus could be embargoed from receiving US engines and components. They wouldn’t deliver another plane once the supply train was stopped. It’ll be quite some time before they develop P&W and GE engine replacements; Honeywell avionics and APUs; a boatload of smaller parts.

GF


And than the EU could put an embargo on the USA and Boeing would not deliver a single 737 for example. Every CFM be it an 56 or LEAP is build with European parts.

The 787 would also be in trouble, there are either RR engines or the GEnx and that one includes parts from MTU.

I could go on, even some USA military engines use parts from MTU. The engines on the KC-46, PW4062 has MTU parts.

I am astonished how people think that aircraft parts being a one way street. Yes the USA could close down Airbus, but the EU could than close down Boeing. Mutual agreed upon destruction. It needs a certain kind of ignorance thinking that economic war is a good thing.


I worked for an aircraft manufacturer; I was and am constantly made aware of the international aspect of aviation. I don’t even think this sanction regime is the ideal solution, but it’s US law and supported across the US political spectrum. Obama could have made it US law by Senate ratification, but couldn’t make it happen levaving open Trump’s move.

If Airbus elected to disregard its legal team, the politicians and its bankers, all of whom support Airbus in their observance of US sanctions; they’d be breaking the law. Trying to enlist EU support for counter-sanctions on ?Boeing would not happen and possibly illegal.

GF


As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6597
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:13 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.


Technically the U.S. doesn't sanction E.U. companies; the U.S. simply prohibits U.S. companies from doing business with foreign companies and nationals which do business with Iran, and it cuts off access to the U.S. financial system for the same. And Airbus does have operations in the U.S., so contravening U.S. sanctions on Iran would impact those businesses and subsidiaries.
 
UA444
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:29 pm

mcg wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of buying old planes from dodgy countries/brokers, maybe they just can kick out those evil Ayatollahs, become a democracy and problem solved.

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't get why Airbus allow itself to be dependant on US technology for their aircraft. They must have known that this day would come ?


Easy, the US is the most technologically advanced country in the history of humanity.


Iran is a democracy.

In name only.
 
DDR
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:56 pm

I understand the reasoning for prohibiting military aircraft sales to Iran, but I do not understand the issue with civilian aircraft. Why should we prevent the Iranian people from having safe, modern aircraft? No one wants to see innocent Iranians dying in crashes because they aren't allowed to have modern aircraft. I just don't understand. It does not seem fair.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2337
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:53 am

mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:09 am

I wouldn’t count on that!

GF
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:27 am

DDR wrote:
I understand the reasoning for prohibiting military aircraft sales to Iran, but I do not understand the issue with civilian aircraft. Why should we prevent the Iranian people from having safe, modern aircraft? No one wants to see innocent Iranians dying in crashes because they aren't allowed to have modern aircraft. I just don't understand. It does not seem fair.



Most likely the same reason why other high tech technology ( such as oil related technology ) is held back. High technology can often be changed from civilian use to millitary use, for instance to nuclear program.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:35 am

IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2337
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:47 am

Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.


You’re not paying attention. The US did not enter and sign a deal. The President does not have the power to do so without Senate approval, which the President never even attempted to get.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8503
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:13 am

IPFreely wrote:
You’re not paying attention. The US did not enter and sign a deal. The President does not have the power to do so without Senate approval, which the President never even attempted to get.


dysfunctional.
That is a domestic US problem. Why should the rest of the world have to work around that?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:32 am

IPFreely wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.


You’re not paying attention. The US did not enter and sign a deal. The President does not have the power to do so without Senate approval, which the President never even attempted to get.


That is convenient for you Americans. But as I pointet out before and that WIederling also corrctly points out, - that the US is run like a banana republic and can't keep order in it's house is a domestic issue and not something that the rest of the world can be bothered with. And I think you got my point the first time ...
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:34 am

Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.

Just the opposite! If the US was a banana republic, then President Obama’s assent alone would have been enough to bind us to the JCPOA. Sadly, we’re a democratic republic, and to for it to become law, it had to be ratified by the US Senate. The President didn’t do that, and why is clear. Not only did Senate Republicans oppose the deal, but Senate Democrats did too. Maybe if he’d done it properly he would have actually earned his Nobel Prize. Our President is not a dictator, and cannot be despite all the derangement from his political opponents ignorant talking points. Won’t stop the ranting on internet message boards, but that’s just background noise.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:41 am

Mortyman wrote:
That is convenient for you Americans. But as I pointet out before and that WIederling also corrctly points out, - that the US is run like a banana republic and can't keep order in it's house is a domestic issue and not something that the rest of the world can be bothered with. And I think you got my point the first time ...

Yes, our following the constitution is inconvenient for America bashers. But what’s a boy to do?
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:00 am

Bricktop wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
That is convenient for you Americans. But as I pointet out before and that WIederling also corrctly points out, - that the US is run like a banana republic and can't keep order in it's house is a domestic issue and not something that the rest of the world can be bothered with. And I think you got my point the first time ...

Yes, our following the constitution is inconvenient for America bashers. But what’s a boy to do?


You are gonna honor what was agreed upon in good faith with the rest of the parties.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:00 am

Bricktop wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
That is convenient for you Americans. But as I pointet out before and that WIederling also corrctly points out, - that the US is run like a banana republic and can't keep order in it's house is a domestic issue and not something that the rest of the world can be bothered with. And I think you got my point the first time ...

Yes, our following the constitution is inconvenient for America bashers. But what’s a boy to do?


You are gonna honor what was agreed upon in good faith with the rest of the parties.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:10 am

Used Airbusses from everywhere? Re Keejse above.


As I skim read this thread this is what I was thinking amongst all the political and nationalistic comments.
Why can't they simply buy off the second hand market?
You surely can't sanction an Airline or leasing company who bought product in good faith ,from then selling that product on when it is no longer of use to them.
Unless this is wrong then there are plenty of aircaft they can buy second hand.There must be loads of old 330's and 340's about that would cover their requirements.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8374
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:11 am

Bricktop wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.

Just the opposite! If the US was a banana republic, then President Obama’s assent alone would have been enough to bind us to the JCPOA. Sadly, we’re a democratic republic, and to for it to become law, it had to be ratified by the US Senate. The President didn’t do that, and why is clear. Not only did Senate Republicans oppose the deal, but Senate Democrats did too. Maybe if he’d done it properly he would have actually earned his Nobel Prize. Our President is not a dictator, and cannot be despite all the derangement from his political opponents ignorant talking points. Won’t stop the ranting on internet message boards, but that’s just background noise.


Internal strife in the USA politics are completely uninteresting. For all practical purpose you are a banana republic.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:36 am

Gosh, why does each and every one of these threads get spoilt by politics, only to end up in Non-Av. Keep your views to yourselves or spread them in Non-Av. I am aviation enthusiast with utmost respect for Iran Air making the best of what they had for years in keeping their fleets flying, plenty a carriers MX out there could probably learn or thing or two from their engineering department! All this is bad for the population, who deserve safe and reliable air travel. As Keesje pointed out, I too expect a bunch of 340s finding their way to Iran, it will be interesting to watch what ´creative sourcing´ approaches will be used this time !
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
marcelh
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:40 am

UA444 wrote:
In name only.


Nothing changed then when the sjah was still in charge (with help of the US)....
 
cpd
Posts: 5959
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:15 am

cougar15 wrote:
Gosh, why does each and every one of these threads get spoilt by politics, only to end up in Non-Av. Keep your views to yourselves or spread them in Non-Av. I am aviation enthusiast with utmost respect for Iran Air making the best of what they had for years in keeping their fleets flying, plenty a carriers MX out there could probably learn or thing or two from their engineering department! All this is bad for the population, who deserve safe and reliable air travel. As Keesje pointed out, I too expect a bunch of 340s finding their way to Iran, it will be interesting to watch what ´creative sourcing´ approaches will be used this time !



Hear hear! :checkmark:

A340s and A330s are good dependable aircraft and Iran Air does have Airbus planes already, so those would have to be a good choice second hand just for the sake of having commonality.

Apologies for going off topic and talking about actual aircraft in the Civil Aviation forum area.
 
JayBCNLON
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:20 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of buying old planes from dodgy countries/brokers, maybe they just can kick out those evil Ayatollahs, become a democracy and problem solved.

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't get why Airbus allow itself to be dependant on US technology for their aircraft. They must have known that this day would come ?


Easy, the US is the most technologically advanced country in the history of humanity.


Not only technologically. It is the most advanced country in the history of humanity. Period ;)
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3445
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:46 am

DDR wrote:
I understand the reasoning for prohibiting military aircraft sales to Iran, but I do not understand the issue with civilian aircraft. Why should we prevent the Iranian people from having safe, modern aircraft? No one wants to see innocent Iranians dying in crashes because they aren't allowed to have modern aircraft. I just don't understand. It does not seem fair.


I believe the reason is that there are numerous documented cases of Iran using it's civil fleet to move their military personnel around for offensive deployments. Please don't shoot the messenger.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8374
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:47 am

IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


You commentary is both of topic and plainly wrong.

The EU has declared those sanctions as illegal and nobody is talking or has ever talked about a treaty in regards to the agreement with Iran. Foreign policy is even in the USA a prerogative of the executive. One president of the USA is ignoring or renegading on an agreement of the president before him did. You can not trust the USA any longer to comply with made agreements. You have a bully running around who also seems not to respect treaties very much and nobody in your Senate is calling him to order.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5687
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:59 am

cougar15 wrote:
Gosh, why does each and every one of these threads get spoilt by politics, only to end up in Non-Av. Keep your views to yourselves or spread them in Non-Av. I am aviation enthusiast with utmost respect for Iran Air making the best of what they had for years in keeping their fleets flying, plenty a carriers MX out there could probably learn or thing or two from their engineering department! All this is bad for the population, who deserve safe and reliable air travel. As Keesje pointed out, I too expect a bunch of 340s finding their way to Iran, it will be interesting to watch what ´creative sourcing´ approaches will be used this time !



Unfortunetly Iran civil aviation and US sanctions / foreign policy goes hand in hand. To pretend that one can seperate the two is a hopeless endevour. We can move the thread to non aviation, but it will still be about aviation and politics and vice versa.
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am

Mortyman wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Gosh, why does each and every one of these threads get spoilt by politics, only to end up in Non-Av. Keep your views to yourselves or spread them in Non-Av. I am aviation enthusiast with utmost respect for Iran Air making the best of what they had for years in keeping their fleets flying, plenty a carriers MX out there could probably learn or thing or two from their engineering department! All this is bad for the population, who deserve safe and reliable air travel. As Keesje pointed out, I too expect a bunch of 340s finding their way to Iran, it will be interesting to watch what ´creative sourcing´ approaches will be used this time !



Unfortunetly Iran civil aviation and US sanctions / foreign policy goes hand in hand. To pretend that one can seperate the two is a hopeless endevour. We can move the thread to non aviation, but it will still be about aviation and politics and vice versa.

The thread title is pretty clear.

"So what’s Iran going to do now ?"

This should actually be just a discussion on how the Iranian airlines will react to the new situation. Such a discussion should be possible without turning it too much into politics. Even a discussion on how Airbus could try to ignore the sanctions could be done without too much politics.

And even when it turns political, it could still be a much better discussion if it's doesn't turn into a "USA's bad vs. Iran's bad" argument.
 
Planeyguy
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:12 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:45 am

Why do people care what the US does anyway? Its not like the US is forcing the EU not to trade with Iran.They can trade with Iran all they want just that they cant trade with thd US at the same time.US will buy Boeing airplanes and the EU will buy Airbus airplanes simple as that and all will be happy
 
User avatar
ricport
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:14 pm

UA444 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Pretty sure they'll do what they've done before...source aircraft or parts via dodgy characters / companies in intermediate countries who couldn't care if the US bans them from business deals with the US...
This could all escalate...I mean I bet the ME3 would be in a position of offload a few surplus aircraft to Iran but are they scared of the US reaction ?

The ME2 (EK and EY) would burn their aircraft before selling them to Iran. It's just politics. Qatar has a better relationship but would not want to get into this catfight as they also have strong US ties.

Any IR aircraft bought would presumably be done by brokers who do not violate the ten year rule for aircraft minimum age. Shame really as the losers continue to be ordinary Iranians who just want safe, cheap air travel but get dragged into the politics of it all.

They’re more than welcome to overthrow their dictatorship government if they want new planes. They have experience doing it.



EXACTLY. Getting rid of the serpent's head of global terror would allow the Iranian people to get whatever planes they wish.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1683
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Bricktop wrote:
An increasing number of nations will also note
that the US is subsidizing them to a massive extent, and has decided not to play the chump any longer.
Better brush up on your Russian, mein Freund. ;)


That would be the US with the largest national debt on Earth, the one that owes everyone else on the planet...?

The US's view of itself is delusional.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1683
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Airbus elected to disregard its legal team, the politicians and its bankers, all of whom support Airbus in their observance of US sanctions; they’d be breaking the law.


That's a US law applying in the US only.

Trying to enlist EU support for counter-sanctions on ?Boeing would not happen and possibly illegal.


For a US law applying in the US only.

Now how about all the rest of the world's laws which are being broken by the US in things like unilaterally deciding not to honour international treaties. There are many...

US law is not THE law!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1683
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:25 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.


You’re not paying attention. The US did not enter and sign a deal. The President does not have the power to do so without Senate approval, which the President never even attempted to get.


Again, to the rest of the world: who cares?!? The head of government entered an international agreement. How your domestic administration works has nothing to do with us!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:34 pm

My prediction: Depending on how Iran is supported by China and eventually Russia:
It could be a Scenario that some of the planes scheduled for e.g. China may end up in Iran- and then preferred Boeing planes rather then Airbus planes, so that China functions as an Agent for Iran. Will Trump then stop all deliveries from Boeing to China?

Just a speculation of corse.

Flyglobal
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:54 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of buying old planes from dodgy countries/brokers, maybe they just can kick out those evil Ayatollahs, become a democracy and problem solved.

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't get why Airbus allow itself to be dependant on US technology for their aircraft. They must have known that this day would come ?


Easy, the US is the most technologically advanced country in the history of humanity.


Not only technologically. It is the most advanced country in the history of humanity. Period ;)


They might be the most advanced country that is located between Canada and Mexico but nothing more.
Happy Landings
 
ScottB
Posts: 6597
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:03 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The EU has declared those sanctions as illegal and nobody is talking or has ever talked about a treaty in regards to the agreement with Iran. Foreign policy is even in the USA a prerogative of the executive. One president of the USA is ignoring or renegading on an agreement of the president before him did. You can not trust the USA any longer to comply with made agreements.


The E.U. can declare sanctions illegal all it wants but that's not binding on U.S. companies. I suppose they could penalize E.U. companies for dealing with U.S. companies that adhere to the sanctions and that would get interesting.

The President of the U.S. has the power to make treaties with the advice and consent of the U.S. Senate, but an "international agreement" isn't a treaty. That agreement was binding on the former president but not on the United States because it isn't a treaty, even if the Europeans handed him a Nobel Peace Prize for not much more than getting elected. If you want the U.S. to comply with an agreement, that agreement needs to be a treaty.

mjoelnir wrote:
For all practical purpose you are a banana republic.


As pointed out earlier, a banana republic is typically run despotically, at the whim of a dictator. Requiring the chief executive to obtain the consent of a legislature of democratically elected representatives of the people in order to make laws and binding agreements is pretty much the polar opposite of a banana republic. It's not as if this should be news to anyone dealing with the United States: the process has been this way for 230 years.

parapente wrote:
Why can't they simply buy off the second hand market?
You surely can't sanction an Airline or leasing company who bought product in good faith ,from then selling that product on when it is no longer of use to them.


The way it works is: Let's say Parapente Pre-Owned Aircraft (PPOA, not a U.S. company) decides to sell some used A330s and A340s to Iran Air & Mahan Air. U.S. companies (importantly banks) will be prohibited from doing business with PPOA or any of its principals, which has the inconvenient effect of removing access to the U.S. financial system, which makes it difficult to do business in dollars. That's not an insurmountable problem for everyone, but for most large multinationals, losing access to trade with the U.S. and its financial system is a non-starter.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1965
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:02 pm

These discussions keep pivoting back to politics and not focusing on safety in civil aviation for Iranian civilians. Which is why the western world has any interest in easing such sanctions beyond any denuclearization agreements.

It always starts with someone popping in with "'Murca is the best! " Then other people dispute that claim. Then there's discussion of Islamists etc in Iran. Ffs, americans, bring the topic to non aviation and actually look up the history of events leading up to the Iranian revolution. We made a lot of mistakes in interfering with other countries' affairs during the cold war era, but we really cocked up our good relationship with Iran. Did people forget why they have F-14s and 747SPs?
 
seat24charlie
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:34 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:28 pm

UA444 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Pretty sure they'll do what they've done before...source aircraft or parts via dodgy characters / companies in intermediate countries who couldn't care if the US bans them from business deals with the US...
This could all escalate...I mean I bet the ME3 would be in a position of offload a few surplus aircraft to Iran but are they scared of the US reaction ?

The ME2 (EK and EY) would burn their aircraft before selling them to Iran. It's just politics. Qatar has a better relationship but would not want to get into this catfight as they also have strong US ties.

Any IR aircraft bought would presumably be done by brokers who do not violate the ten year rule for aircraft minimum age. Shame really as the losers continue to be ordinary Iranians who just want safe, cheap air travel but get dragged into the politics of it all.

They’re more than welcome to overthrow their dictatorship government if they want new planes. They have experience doing it.


They did that back in '79. The dictator was a US puppet. Try again.
 
seat24charlie
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:34 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:29 pm

ricport wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
The ME2 (EK and EY) would burn their aircraft before selling them to Iran. It's just politics. Qatar has a better relationship but would not want to get into this catfight as they also have strong US ties.

Any IR aircraft bought would presumably be done by brokers who do not violate the ten year rule for aircraft minimum age. Shame really as the losers continue to be ordinary Iranians who just want safe, cheap air travel but get dragged into the politics of it all.

They’re more than welcome to overthrow their dictatorship government if they want new planes. They have experience doing it.



EXACTLY. Getting rid of the serpent's head of global terror would allow the Iranian people to get whatever planes they wish.


I didn't realize we'd brought KSA into it
 
bob75013
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:38 pm

Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As far as I know this USA sanctions are illegal according to the EU, the USA renegaded on a agreement. USA law is USA law not international law. If the USA can sanction EU companies how can it be illegal for the EU to sanction USA companies.

I do not know how it will play out, but talking about legal or illegal is beside the point. The USA is just the biggest bully on the school yard.


Your political commentary is both off-topic and misguided.

"According to the EU?" - false
"The USA reneged (or renegaded) on an agreement?" - false. For the US to enter a treaty two things have to happen 1. it is signed by the President, and 2. the President submits it to the Senate and it is approved. In this case the President only completed step 1. Why he did not botherwith step 2 only he can explain, but he clearly knew he did not complete what was required.


Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.


The president of the U.S. is not a king or emperor.. The U.S. revolted against a king's rule in 1776.

In the U.S. it's not a 'deal" until the U.S.Senate approves it. That never happened. Why? Because Obama knew that the Senate (including members of his own party)
would never ratify it.

In this case the emperor had no clothes. He just hoped that no one would notice..
 
WIederling
Posts: 8503
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:53 pm

ricport wrote:
EXACTLY. Getting rid of the serpent's head of global terror would allow the Iranian people to get whatever planes they wish.


If wishes where ...

The Iranian people really have no leverage to remove the US System from the globe.
That would require global teamwork. But afaics pressure to go there is rising.
Murphy is an optimist
 
mham001
Posts: 5520
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:29 pm

Mortyman wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Does not change the fact that the US entered a deal and signed it. That the US is run like a banana repuplic is besides the point. If the US wants to be taken seriously, it is expected to honor the deal that has been entered.


You’re not paying attention. The US did not enter and sign a deal. The President does not have the power to do so without Senate approval, which the President never even attempted to get.


That is convenient for you Americans. But as I pointet out before and that WIederling also corrctly points out, - that the US is run like a banana republic and can't keep order in it's house is a domestic issue and not something that the rest of the world can be bothered with. And I think you got my point the first time ...


SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Again, to the rest of the world: who cares?!? The head of government entered an international agreement. How your domestic administration works has nothing to do with us!


Anybody with a clue knew this "agreement" was tenuous, at best and could be revoked at any time, for many reasons. European companies should have known better before literally rushing to Tehran the day after sanctions were lifted. If those companies are getting burnt now, you should be venting at their leadership for not understanding important distinctions and procedures, such as who has authority to make a US president's agreement turn into an actual binding treaty. The knowledge of the laws of individual countries are very much a necessity in international business. Failure to understand those laws is negligent.. Boeing knew all this, that is why their deal never was anything more than a signature and notice very few American companies even attempted to do business with Tehran.

Iran should have snatched up all the used planes they could instead of focusing on hundreds of shiny new planes taking years to deliver. Maybe they didn't have the cash?
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:22 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
An increasing number of nations will also note
that the US is subsidizing them to a massive extent, and has decided not to play the chump any longer.
Better brush up on your Russian, mein Freund. ;)


That would be the US with the largest national debt on Earth, the one that owes everyone else on the planet...?

The US's view of itself is delusional.

Perhaps, but the US matters. China matters. Russia matters. End of list.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:30 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
An increasing number of nations will also note
that the US is subsidizing them to a massive extent, and has decided not to play the chump any longer.
Better brush up on your Russian, mein Freund. ;)


That would be the US with the largest national debt on Earth, the one that owes everyone else on the planet...?

The US's view of itself is delusional.

Debt as percent of GDP is far more relevant a metric. But we are now WAY off topic. I won’t perpetuate it further.
 
Cdydatzigs
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:19 pm

londonistan wrote:
I know..! They can lease aircraft from Turkish and repaint a joint livery on the side saying "Death to America" in Farsi & Turkish and a great big two-fingers-up on the tail.


I think a flying shoe widget on the tail would be more appropriate.
 
User avatar
NearMiss
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but what gives the US the authority to put an almost worldwide embargo on a country? Same thing happens with Cuba. It's not like the Cold War is still going on, is it?
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
Galwayman
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Iran should open their domestic routes to Qatar and just keep ignoring American hysteria like most of the world does
 
IWMBH
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:57 pm

Is the Il-96 not an option for Iran Air?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:01 pm

Max Q wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I wouldn’t count on that!

GF



I don’t just count on it, I know it


And, how is it you know the future? Time traveling, perhaps?

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: So what’s Iran going to do now ?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:12 pm

NearMiss wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but what gives the US the authority to put an almost worldwide embargo on a country? Same thing happens with Cuba. It's not like the Cold War is still going on, is it?


We actually do NOT have any such power. The USG has just said US businesses cannot conduct business with foreign companies doing business with Iran. The US sanctions protocol is ENTIRELY an internal US law, passed and supported by both political parties, which is exactly why the agreement was not presented to the Senate.

Get over yourselves, please. This is a US matter, not subject to the EU, WTO, UN, or anybody else. Sorry, but develop your own stuff to sell to Iran, if their business is more valuable than doing business in the US. It’s a free world. Just an FYI: this settled law, Trump has no part in it other than to decide to rescind Obama’s penciled in name. When Obama made the deal, everyone was told that this was a possible outcome.


GF

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos