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Cedric13
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Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:01 am

I keep thinking about why only a small number of low cost carriers from Europe fly to Beirut, Lebanon (Transavia, Vueling, Pegasus) and Vueling’s flights to Beirut aren’t even that low cost, tickets can go for as high as 800$ round trip during peak season. Maybe the problem is the high taxes for aviation that won’t allow airlines to operate proper low cost flights into the country? Every year articles pop up about Ryanair, Easyjet looking to launch flights to Beirut but every year it’s the same result... Easyjet and Vueling (before Beirut) launched Amman but it didn’t work out while Vueling’s service to Beirut is doing very well aswell as Transavia as they are launching their second destination to the city, Amsterdam. Even Ryanair is launching like 14 destinations to Jordan. The demand for low cost flights to Beirut is there because many of those destinations served by those carriers are not served and the Lebanese are known to travel a lot... Regular priced flights are pretty much always full so I don’t see a problem filling a low cost flight to a new destination and it will tremendously help in increasing the number of tourists to the country...
So what do you think?
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:12 am

Jordan (and Israel) have Open Skies with the EU; that is why Ryanair (an Irish carrier) fly to those two countries from anywhere, from Latvia to Italy. They also get tax breaks; hence this boom in AMM, Aqaba, TLV and VDA.

Then Jordan is a big destination for European tourists. Having more and cheaper flights will only boost tourism. You have Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea (Aqaba), Jerash, Amman... and it is seen as a peaceful country.

For the bad or the good, Lebanon is not a destination geared towards European tourists and it will be difficult to market on a big scale (very expensive, perceived as dangerous, hotel infrastructure is not there...). Beirut can support a Transavia to Paris or Amsterdam, where there are big communities of Lebanese and your random French tourists willing to visit the so-called "Paris of the Middle East") but you will not get 180 people flying from Krakow or Bologna like Ryanair/Wizzair do in Jordan or Israel.
 
Cedric13
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:26 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Jordan (and Israel) have Open Skies with the EU; that is why Ryanair (an Irish carrier) fly to those two countries from anywhere, from Latvia to Italy. They also get tax breaks; hence this boom in AMM, Aqaba, TLV and VDA.

Then Jordan is a big destination for European tourists. Having more and cheaper flights will only boost tourism. You have Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea (Aqaba), Jerash, Amman... and it is seen as a peaceful country.

For the bad or the good, Lebanon is not a destination geared towards European tourists and it will be difficult to market on a big scale (very expensive, perceived as dangerous, hotel infrastructure is not there...). Beirut can support a Transavia to Paris or Amsterdam, where there are big communities of Lebanese and your random French tourists willing to visit the so-called "Paris of the Middle East") but you will not get 180 people flying from Krakow or Bologna like Ryanair/Wizzair do in Jordan or Israel.

Not completely true as Lebanon has seen a record number of tourists especially from Europe and the Usa this summer, beach resorts are all full, hotels have an occupancy rate that has never been seen for years... Flights are all full, trust me there is demand as not only the tourists will help fill the flights but the Lebanese are known travellers and they like to explore Europe hence why a small country like Lebanon has an airport that serves nearly 9 million passengers yearly and is operating at a maximum capacity with more than 50 airlines serving it. The airport is more busy than Amman for example and it’s going to be expanded to accomodate 15 million then 20 million passengers.
 
hisham
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 am

Record number of tourists from the USA??? I hate to burst your bubble but those are all Lebanese dual citizens, friend. SCQ83 is right. Those are not the tourists that the low cost airlines rely on. What SCQ83 is true.
Yes, the Lebanese travel more than the Jordanians because they have more money but trust me, Jordan gets more European and American tourists than Lebanon. That’s why they have low cost airlines.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:44 am

Cedric13 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Jordan (and Israel) have Open Skies with the EU; that is why Ryanair (an Irish carrier) fly to those two countries from anywhere, from Latvia to Italy. They also get tax breaks; hence this boom in AMM, Aqaba, TLV and VDA.

Then Jordan is a big destination for European tourists. Having more and cheaper flights will only boost tourism. You have Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea (Aqaba), Jerash, Amman... and it is seen as a peaceful country.

For the bad or the good, Lebanon is not a destination geared towards European tourists and it will be difficult to market on a big scale (very expensive, perceived as dangerous, hotel infrastructure is not there...). Beirut can support a Transavia to Paris or Amsterdam, where there are big communities of Lebanese and your random French tourists willing to visit the so-called "Paris of the Middle East") but you will not get 180 people flying from Krakow or Bologna like Ryanair/Wizzair do in Jordan or Israel.

Not completely true as Lebanon has seen a record number of tourists especially from Europe and the Usa this summer, beach resorts are all full, hotels have an occupancy rate that has never been seen for years... Flights are all full, trust me there is demand as not only the tourists will help fill the flights but the Lebanese are known travellers and they like to explore Europe hence why a small country like Lebanon has an airport that serves nearly 9 million passengers yearly and is operating at a maximum capacity with more than 50 airlines serving it. The airport is more busy than Amman for example and it’s going to be expanded to accomodate 15 million then 20 million passengers.


Beirut is actually pretty popular for French tourists and growing. Specially with the young crowd who can now go there on citybreaks with transavia offering round trips for less than 150$. Beirut's nightlife is vibrant, with tons of restaurants, bars (and alcohol) and compared to Paris it's definitly cheap. AF flies to BEY not only from CDG but also from NCE and MRS in the summer.
 
Cedric13
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:47 am

hisham wrote:
Record number of tourists from the USA??? I hate to burst your bubble but those are all Lebanese dual citizens, friend. SCQ83 is right. Those are not the tourists that the low cost airlines rely on. What SCQ83 is true.
Yes, the Lebanese travel more than the Jordanians because they have more money but trust me, Jordan gets more European and American tourists than Lebanon. That’s why they have low cost airlines.

Yeah I didn’t mean to say record number of tourists from the USA but a bigger number of tourist from everywhere this year and last year than most of the previous years. I must add that Jordan hasn’t had that good of an experience with low cost carriers until Ryanair entered the market with easyjet and vueling opening and closing routes in a matter of 2 or 3 years.
 
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J4YC3
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:42 pm

Cedric13 wrote:
Vueling’s flights to Beirut aren’t even that low cost, tickets can go for as high as 800$ round trip during peak season.


Vueling are experts at finding previously unserved profitable routes from BCN and then milking them for all they're worth by charging FSC prices for LCC service. If yields are that good then MEA should really consider serving the route too: Last year 30,000 passengers took a connecting flight to get from BCN to BEY (most likely on TK). For a close example Vueling competes with 3 or 4 Israeli carriers on BCN-TLV and everyone is apparently making money.

Cedric13 wrote:
Easyjet and Vueling (before Beirut) launched Amman but it didn’t work out while Vueling’s service to Beirut is doing very well aswell as Transavia as they are launching their second destination to the city, Amsterdam. Even Ryanair is launching like 14 destinations to Jordan.


IIRC, Jordan is only letting Ryanair operate in routes that Royal Jordanian aren't currently serving. Perhaps the reason Vueling had to give up was because they launched BCN-AMM.
 
santi319
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:15 pm

People really need to get a grip about BEY on anet, its becomming more and more popular. While people saying its like the Paris of the ME, Id say its more like a Miami in East Europe/Middle East. Beautiful people and a nice beach town. Even the gay life there is fun as hell.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:05 pm

santi319 wrote:
People really need to get a grip about BEY on anet, its becomming more and more popular. While people saying its like the Paris of the ME, Id say its more like a Miami in East Europe/Middle East. Beautiful people and a nice beach town. Even the gay life there is fun as hell.


Until the religious nutters behind Hezbollah decide they need to kidnap someone or blow up a political figure or two, then tourism will be back in the toilet and will be limited to fake lips, the usual money laundering crowd and of course those wonderful Lebanese dads taking their kids for holidays without their mums so they can avoid the various human rights treaties Lebanon hasn’t signed.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:10 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
Beirut is actually pretty popular for French tourists and growing. Specially with the young crowd who can now go there on citybreaks with transavia offering round trips for less than 150$. Beirut's nightlife is vibrant, with tons of restaurants, bars (and alcohol) and compared to Paris it's definitly cheap. AF flies to BEY not only from CDG but also from NCE and MRS in the summer.


That is why I mentioned "your random French tourists". Other than some Parisian bo-bos (maybe with Lebanese friends), few Europeans visit Lebanon - at least compared to nearby Israel and Jordan -. Lebanon is an extremely expensive and overpriced (specially considering the security situation and general standard of life) place that really makes no sense for most European tourists.

https://en.annahar.com/article/837025-l ... m-industry

Lebanon pricing itself out of tourism industry

Exorbitant prices and a higher cost of living compared to destinations like Istanbul, Turkey, or Larnaca, Cyprus have undoubtedly played a role in deterring potential visitors.


Btw I guess this has something to do with low-cost carriers not flying to BEY

A nationwide tax hike enacted last year to fund the salary increase for public sector workers, has hiked ticket prices. Travelers leaving Lebanon on economy seats now pay a $40 exit fee while business class travelers and first-class passengers incur a fee of $73 and $100, respectively, bringing Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport on par with some of its most expensive counterparts.


santi319 wrote:
People really need to get a grip about BEY on anet, its becomming more and more popular. While people saying its like the Paris of the ME, Id say its more like a Miami in East Europe/Middle East. Beautiful people and a nice beach town. Even the gay life there is fun as hell.


The article I quoted does a different picture. Tourism is Lebanon is well below before the Arab Spring. I imagine part of this has to with GCCers (which also spend more than an average Euro tourist) going on holiday to other places (Morocco, Turkey, Bosnia, EU...) instead of Lebanon.
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:33 pm

Cedric13 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Jordan (and Israel) have Open Skies with the EU; that is why Ryanair (an Irish carrier) fly to those two countries from anywhere, from Latvia to Italy. They also get tax breaks; hence this boom in AMM, Aqaba, TLV and VDA.

Then Jordan is a big destination for European tourists. Having more and cheaper flights will only boost tourism. You have Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea (Aqaba), Jerash, Amman... and it is seen as a peaceful country.

For the bad or the good, Lebanon is not a destination geared towards European tourists and it will be difficult to market on a big scale (very expensive, perceived as dangerous, hotel infrastructure is not there...). Beirut can support a Transavia to Paris or Amsterdam, where there are big communities of Lebanese and your random French tourists willing to visit the so-called "Paris of the Middle East") but you will not get 180 people flying from Krakow or Bologna like Ryanair/Wizzair do in Jordan or Israel.

Not completely true as Lebanon has seen a record number of tourists especially from Europe and the Usa this summer, beach resorts are all full, hotels have an occupancy rate that has never been seen for years... Flights are all full, trust me there is demand as not only the tourists will help fill the flights but the Lebanese are known travellers and they like to explore Europe hence why a small country like Lebanon has an airport that serves nearly 9 million passengers yearly and is operating at a maximum capacity with more than 50 airlines serving it. The airport is more busy than Amman for example and it’s going to be expanded to accomodate 15 million then 20 million passengers.


where are you getting those numbers from ? stop living in a bubble Lebanon is facing the hardest financial crisis there is basically zero tourism at the moment ... seriously just check the news .. local news
 
SonaSounds
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:52 pm

Lebanon had 1.7m tourists last year with only 210k coming from Europe with the USA being even a smaller portion. In contrast Israel had 3.6m tourists with 750k from the USA alone. Russian visitors took second place with 307k visitors, and tourism from France was third, with about 284k visitors. Germany and the United Kingdom rounded out the top five with 202k and 185k visitors, respectively. Most of Lebanon's tourist are coming from other Middle Eastern countries. The markets aren't even comparable. Let alone not even being the biggest tourism markets in the Middle East (Turkey 39.5m, Saudi Arabia 18m, UAE 14.2m, Egypt 9m, etc (2015))

http://www.libc.net/2017/07/11/number-o ... year-high/

https://www.israel21c.org/israel-sets-n ... s-in-2017/
 
WesternA318
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:56 pm

I've been booking loads of non-Lebanese travelers to Beirut (and then onto places like Jouneih and Tripoli). It's safer than sending them to Mexico, and they come back telling me I was right. But from here in the states I just put them on AF to CDG then MEA to BEY. Sometimes they'll do something like LAX-FRA-ATH-BEY on LH/A3, but rarely. I've sent almost 300 travelers this summer, and for the rest of the year I've got another 85 on the books for US-BEY travel.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:22 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Btw I guess this has something to do with low-cost carriers not flying to BEY

A nationwide tax hike enacted last year to fund the salary increase for public sector workers, has hiked ticket prices. Travelers leaving Lebanon on economy seats now pay a $40 exit fee while business class travelers and first-class passengers incur a fee of $73 and $100, respectively, bringing Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport on par with some of its most expensive counterparts.


I agree. LCCs can only work if they can be cheap. Due to these taxes they can't be cheap, therefor they're not interested. If the taxes would be lowered, the number of passengers would rise. However as long as other, similar destinations don't have tax they got the advantage of a lower price, which is very important for a LCC. They only fly where they can offer the lowest fares and due to the Lebanese taxes they can't offer low fares.
 
ScottB
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:30 pm

santi319 wrote:
Even the gay life there is fun as hell.


Um, sure, gay life is fun as hell when the organizer of the gay pride week is detained for "encouraging debauchery and offending public decency" and only released upon pledging to cancel the activities. Oh, I suppose you meant literally, fun as Hell.

Cedric13 wrote:
Maybe the problem is the high taxes for aviation that won’t allow airlines to operate proper low cost flights into the country? Every year articles pop up about Ryanair, Easyjet looking to launch flights to Beirut but every year it’s the same result... Easyjet and Vueling (before Beirut) launched Amman but it didn’t work out while Vueling’s service to Beirut is doing very well aswell as Transavia as they are launching their second destination to the city, Amsterdam. Even Ryanair is launching like 14 destinations to Jordan.


I'd expect part of Jordan's greater appeal to the Euro LCCs is that Jordan is relatively inexpensive compared to Lebanon/Beirut.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:58 pm

ScottB wrote:
I'd expect part of Jordan's greater appeal to the Euro LCCs is that Jordan is relatively inexpensive compared to Lebanon/Beirut.


The problem with Lebanon is that it does not offer anything particularly interesting or exotic to the European tourist. I have been to Beirut myself and while it has its nice areas, it just resembles a dysfunctional Mediterranean city... you have loads of those anywhere in Southern Europe. Being extremely expensive (shockingly expensive for the regional standards) makes it even less marketable. And the cherry on the cake is that it is in a country that any given day might literally explode. And then of course, it is all about tastes. I personally hate that "fake lips" attitude so prevalent in the touristic / high-end areas in Beirut. And as you mention, despite how the local population likes to paint it, it is far from Western standards in terms of laws or openness. No matter flight prices, IMO is a very unmarketable destination on a mass scale.

Jordan is not comparable because Petra alone is a magnet that many people would like to visit once in a lifetime, a wonder of the world. Add to that Wadi Rum and some other stuff and you have you an exotic one week trip. Having cheaper flights with Ryanair can only stimulate traffic facilitating travel to the country and make Petra and Jordan more accesible to more people.
 
alan3
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:13 pm

I am sure Air Canada Rouge would love to fly from YUL if they could get government approval.
 
ME720
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:20 pm

Only reason is because Lebanon has not signed
The opens skies agreement with the EU. Jordan Israel Morroco to name a few have..
Otherwise easyjet for instance would have started dailies from CDG
Flights from FCO Bergamo Athens GVA and maybe more .. RYANAir as well..
transavia (France and NL) operare or will operate
Aigle azur is operating
Vueling operates to BEY
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:02 pm

You can fly BCNBEY for $376rt all in on a full service carrier. I suspect most of Europe is in that price range. I wonder if it’s just too low yield for LCCs...
 
Cedric13
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:52 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
You can fly BCNBEY for $376rt all in on a full service carrier. I suspect most of Europe is in that price range. I wonder if it’s just too low yield for LCCs...

Yeah I think full service (some legacy European) carriers have marked their position in Beirut way more than they have in Amman but for LCCs it’s the other way around. While AF operates 2 daily 77W and 332 with seasonal flights to MRS and NCE, they only operate a daily a320 flight to Amman. Same show with Lufthansa and Alitalia with 2 dailies to Beirut and only one to Amman. BA flew their euro configured a320 to Amman for a couple of weeks at the start of the summer and there are some rumours that BA will introduce the Dreamliner on the Beirut route. Aeroflot, Air Serbia, Bulgaria Air, Czech Airlines (to name a few) have a route to Beirut but don’t serve Amman (other way around with Austrian). Another airline can be Aegean that operates 4 destinations to Beirut and 11 weekly to Athens. Meanwhile Amman and Aqaba are becoming bases for LCC giants like Ryanair and their 14 destinantions, Norwegian in both cities and the recent announcement of Easyjet in Aqaba. Beirut is struggling to get a few (That didn’t succeed in Jordan or didn’t try Jordan) like Transavia, Transavia France, Vueling, Pegasus (Both Amman and Beirut)
 
devron
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:34 am

Just look at rpices and that seems pretty lcc to me between 220 and 300 from different airports in Germany either over athens or istanbul with aegean, pegasus and turkish offering these fares.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:12 am

Cedric13 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
You can fly BCNBEY for $376rt all in on a full service carrier. I suspect most of Europe is in that price range. I wonder if it’s just too low yield for LCCs...

Yeah I think full service (some legacy European) carriers have marked their position in Beirut way more than they have in Amman but for LCCs it’s the other way around. While AF operates 2 daily 77W and 332 with seasonal flights to MRS and NCE, they only operate a daily a320 flight to Amman. Same show with Lufthansa and Alitalia with 2 dailies to Beirut and only one to Amman. BA flew their euro configured a320 to Amman for a couple of weeks at the start of the summer and there are some rumours that BA will introduce the Dreamliner on the Beirut route. Aeroflot, Air Serbia, Bulgaria Air, Czech Airlines (to name a few) have a route to Beirut but don’t serve Amman (other way around with Austrian). Another airline can be Aegean that operates 4 destinations to Beirut and 11 weekly to Athens. Meanwhile Amman and Aqaba are becoming bases for LCC giants like Ryanair and their 14 destinantions, Norwegian in both cities and the recent announcement of Easyjet in Aqaba. Beirut is struggling to get a few (That didn’t succeed in Jordan or didn’t try Jordan) like Transavia, Transavia France, Vueling, Pegasus (Both Amman and Beirut)


Full-service carriers attendance to either Beirut or Amman is governed by multiple local factors such as number of nationals abroad, number of population, wealth concentrations & cultural styles when it comes to travel, as other posters tend to agree.

Jordanian market is more price sensitive than Lebanese market is; a fact recently highlighted by the report that one of the passenger growth destinations out of QAIA during first half of this year is Paphos served by Ryanair:

http://jordantimes.com/news/local/first ... ds-kingdom

http://alrai.com/article/10447719/إقتصا ... لنصف-الاول

It is true there is no comparison between Beirut & Amman when it comes to full-service, however this thread originated by you Cedric13 is talking LCCs.
 
Andy33
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:30 pm

Yes, and let's put the LCC thing to bed. It doesn't really matter how many tourists visit Lebanon as against Jordan, or how wealthy they are, or where they originate from. The beginning and end of the lack of European LCCs at Beirut is traffic rights.
Jordan has signed up to allow any ECAA carrier to fly there from any ECAA country. Lebanon has not.
As a result, Ryanair can only fly there from Ireland (or Austria using their Laudamotion connection); Easyjet can only fly from the UK, Austria and Switzerland (because they have AOCs in these three countries); Eurowings from Germany; Transavia from Netherlands and France (2 AOCs), Vueling from Spain, and so on. If Lebanon wants these LCCs, they have to make it legal for them to fly there from all of their bases, not just the ones in the countries they have AOCs in.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:34 pm

Cedric13 wrote:
I keep thinking about why only a small number of low cost carriers from Europe fly to Beirut, Lebanon (Transavia, Vueling, Pegasus) and Vueling’s flights to Beirut aren’t even that low cost, tickets can go for as high as 800$ round trip during peak season.

Low Cost doesn't mean Low Fare. Don't confuse the 2.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:11 pm

Andy33 wrote:
As a result, Ryanair can only fly there from Ireland (or Austria using their Laudamotion connection); Easyjet can only fly from the UK, Austria and Switzerland (because they have AOCs in these three countries); Eurowings from Germany; Transavia from Netherlands and France (2 AOCs), Vueling from Spain, and so on. If Lebanon wants these LCCs, they have to make it legal for them to fly there from all of their bases, not just the ones in the countries they have AOCs in.


If there was a market, I could see easyJet flying from LGW, BSL, GVA and (maybe) VIE; and Eurowings from TXL and maybe DUS/CGN. If they don't fly maybe there is just not enough demand.
 
Cedric13
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:33 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
As a result, Ryanair can only fly there from Ireland (or Austria using their Laudamotion connection); Easyjet can only fly from the UK, Austria and Switzerland (because they have AOCs in these three countries); Eurowings from Germany; Transavia from Netherlands and France (2 AOCs), Vueling from Spain, and so on. If Lebanon wants these LCCs, they have to make it legal for them to fly there from all of their bases, not just the ones in the countries they have AOCs in.


If there was a market, I could see easyJet flying from LGW, BSL, GVA and (maybe) VIE; and Eurowings from TXL and maybe DUS/CGN. If they don't fly maybe there is just not enough demand.

I think Vienna could work as it’s not served by any airline.
 
Cedric13
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:36 pm

Clipper101 wrote:
Cedric13 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
You can fly BCNBEY for $376rt all in on a full service carrier. I suspect most of Europe is in that price range. I wonder if it’s just too low yield for LCCs...

Yeah I think full service (some legacy European) carriers have marked their position in Beirut way more than they have in Amman but for LCCs it’s the other way around. While AF operates 2 daily 77W and 332 with seasonal flights to MRS and NCE, they only operate a daily a320 flight to Amman. Same show with Lufthansa and Alitalia with 2 dailies to Beirut and only one to Amman. BA flew their euro configured a320 to Amman for a couple of weeks at the start of the summer and there are some rumours that BA will introduce the Dreamliner on the Beirut route. Aeroflot, Air Serbia, Bulgaria Air, Czech Airlines (to name a few) have a route to Beirut but don’t serve Amman (other way around with Austrian). Another airline can be Aegean that operates 4 destinations to Beirut and 11 weekly to Athens. Meanwhile Amman and Aqaba are becoming bases for LCC giants like Ryanair and their 14 destinantions, Norwegian in both cities and the recent announcement of Easyjet in Aqaba. Beirut is struggling to get a few (That didn’t succeed in Jordan or didn’t try Jordan) like Transavia, Transavia France, Vueling, Pegasus (Both Amman and Beirut)


Full-service carriers attendance to either Beirut or Amman is governed by multiple local factors such as number of nationals abroad, number of population, wealth concentrations & cultural styles when it comes to travel, as other posters tend to agree.

Jordanian market is more price sensitive than Lebanese market is; a fact recently highlighted by the report that one of the passenger growth destinations out of QAIA during first half of this year is Paphos served by Ryanair:

http://jordantimes.com/news/local/first ... ds-kingdom

http://alrai.com/article/10447719/إقتصا ... لنصف-الاول

It is true there is no comparison between Beirut & Amman when it comes to full-service, however this thread originated by you Cedric13 is talking LCCs.

Yes I know, that’s why I was saying that even 2 or 3 routes from LCCs could tremendously help and make it easier for travellers.
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:10 pm

Basic answer, yes, lack of rights. Without rights there's no flights. Case closed.

More widely, Beirut is a cool city - I strongly recommend visiting - but 2-3 days is enough. For most Europeans it's quite far to travel for a city break, which Europe has plenty of options for.

By comparison Israel has stronger cultural links to Europe, not just Jews visiting the homeland, but as the birthplace of Christianity which creates visitors. Outside of that I'm not too sure many people visit Israel from Europe.

I think Jordan with the Dead Sea and Petra offers a little more for visitors, plus with rights Ryanair can give it a try.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5926
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:
Basic answer, yes, lack of rights. Without rights there's no flights. Case closed.


It is not case closed, because as mentioned carriers like easyJet or Eurowings could start tomorrow flights from important markets like London, Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

Ryanair or Wizzair would be a different story (even if BUD-BEY on Wizzair would not be that unthinkable; they fly from BUD even to Kazakhstan).

Ryanair01 wrote:
By comparison Israel has stronger cultural links to Europe, not just Jews visiting the homeland, but as the birthplace of Christianity which creates visitors. Outside of that I'm not too sure many people visit Israel from Europe.


Israel today is a mainstream destination in Europe. They have marketed the "Two Cities - One Break" (Jerusalem & Tel Aviv) all over the continent very well. I know all kind of people that have recently travelled there that are not Jews or have any particular religious interest (other than visiting Jerusalem as an historical city in the same way a Saudi might visit Rome); from retired people to families. Not to mention that for instance for the European gay crowd, Tel Aviv is easily among the Top 5 destinations for a break / summer / pride trip.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:03 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
I've been booking loads of non-Lebanese travelers to Beirut (and then onto places like Jouneih and Tripoli). It's safer than sending them to Mexico, and they come back telling me I was right. But from here in the states I just put them on AF to CDG then MEA to BEY. Sometimes they'll do something like LAX-FRA-ATH-BEY on LH/A3, but rarely. I've sent almost 300 travelers this summer, and for the rest of the year I've got another 85 on the books for US-BEY travel.


You quickly lose credibility with a comment like "It's safer than sending them to Mexico" .
Fine, you book non-VFR tourists from the US to BEY; 385 booked this year to be precise, thank you for the anecdotal input (sincerely).

Don't compare it to Mexico which probably gets 385 tourist per second. If you or your clientele have some perception that Mexico is unsafe for tourists, okay - but it hosts what, 40 or 50 million tourist per year, completely in a different league than any ME country.
By any reasonable statistical metric, not only is Mexico far safer for tourists than Lebanon, its also safer for tourists than the US, from which you send.
 
santi319
Posts: 1278
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:09 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
I've been booking loads of non-Lebanese travelers to Beirut (and then onto places like Jouneih and Tripoli). It's safer than sending them to Mexico, and they come back telling me I was right. But from here in the states I just put them on AF to CDG then MEA to BEY. Sometimes they'll do something like LAX-FRA-ATH-BEY on LH/A3, but rarely. I've sent almost 300 travelers this summer, and for the rest of the year I've got another 85 on the books for US-BEY travel.


You quickly lose credibility with a comment like "It's safer than sending them to Mexico" .
Fine, you book non-VFR tourists from the US to BEY; 385 booked this year to be precise, thank you for the anecdotal input (sincerely).

Don't compare it to Mexico which probably gets 385 tourist per second. If you or your clientele have some perception that Mexico is unsafe for tourists, okay - but it hosts what, 40 or 50 million tourist per year, completely in a different league than any ME country.
By any reasonable statistical metric, not only is Mexico far safer for tourists than Lebanon, its also safer for tourists than the US, from which you send.


Exactly, I love how people think because of Cartel isolated violence in the country, Mexico is super unsafe, its simply not the case and the Tourists that get hurt by violence are counted with your fingers. Half of them were at the wrong place, wrong time.

People forget Mexico has 130+ million people and the country is half the size of Europe. So getting in the middle of a cartel shooting is probably as likely as dying in a mass shooting in one of the semi monthly ones in the USA. People really really need to turn off the BREAKING NEWS. And relax a bit...
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5926
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:19 pm

So according to Airliners' Foreign Travel Advice, Mexico is super safe and Lebanon is a gay mecca. What is next?
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:22 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
So according to Airliners' Foreign Travel Advice, Mexico is super safe and Lebanon is a gay mecca. What is next?


uhhh.... well, Mexico *is* super safe, and Lebanon is most definitely NOT a gay mecca..... seems like those two things can be discerned with mere common sense.
you tell us, what is next?
 
directorguy
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Lebanon is a great destination, but is primarily for visitors from other Arab countries. Ironically, most Arabs would perceive Jordan as a "dull" destination whereas they would go to Lebanon in an instant. The inverse is true for Westerners.
Lebanon is known for its beautiful scenery, great food, hospitality, nightlife, fashion, plastic surgery, but has no appeal for visitors from Europe. No all inclusive resorts, or guided tours. There are no specific iconic touristic attractions in Lebanon (most educated people know of Petra but not of the ruins at Baalabek). MEA has never offered a Beirut city tour or stopover package unlike RJ in Amman.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 610
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:15 pm

^^ Are you kidding? Lebanon is a failed state and a major hub of global organised crime.
 
santi319
Posts: 1278
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:57 pm

I love how Mexico not being unsafe, and BEY having a vibrant gay night life turned somewhat to be:


SCQ83 wrote:
So according to Airliners' Foreign Travel Advice, Mexico is super safe and Lebanon is a gay mecca. What is next?


Can’t make this up lol.
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:04 pm

Kilopond wrote:
^^ Are you kidding? Lebanon is a failed state and a major hub of global organised crime.

?? Says who?
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:15 pm

directorguy wrote:
Lebanon is a great destination, but is primarily for visitors from other Arab countries. Ironically, most Arabs would perceive Jordan as a "dull" destination whereas they would go to Lebanon in an instant. The inverse is true for Westerners.
Lebanon is known for its beautiful scenery, great food, hospitality, nightlife, fashion, plastic surgery, but has no appeal for visitors from Europe. No all inclusive resorts, or guided tours. There are no specific iconic touristic attractions in Lebanon (most educated people know of Petra but not of the ruins at Baalabek). MEA has never offered a Beirut city tour or stopover package unlike RJ in Amman.


Lebanon is expensive.. and the infrastructure can not support mass tourism. MEA focuses on the Lebanese market and Lebanese diaspora. Take a look at their face book and twitter . Very Lebanese oriented, they do not approach the international travel. BEY is a mess, I would not want to connect at BEY even for very low fares. Beirut is definitely a fascinating city, that has a lot to offer, and quite known to a specific type of traveler outside the Arab world. Unfortunately the Lebanese have focused on the gulf visitors for decades and that was a big mistake, as they did not bring any added value to Beirut except for cash. They made the Lebanese tourism industry lazy and hunting after a quick and easy buck. Services deteriorated as a result and prices went up. The situation has changed the last 5-7 years as the gulf Arabs stopped coming for political reasons and the Lebanese tourism industry had to reinvent itself.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5926
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:43 am

directorguy wrote:
Lebanon is a great destination, but is primarily for visitors from other Arab countries. Ironically, most Arabs would perceive Jordan as a "dull" destination whereas they would go to Lebanon in an instant. The inverse is true for Westerners.


I am not sure this is the case anymore. GCC Arabs have been moving away not only due to political reasons, but also probably due to economic reasons. And this largely due to cheap airfares. Now there are connections from Sharm El Sheikh or Antalya to Saudi, and Qatar started flights to Antalya or Bodrum. Not to mention Bosnia for those looking for a green landscape (e.g. FlyDubai is three daily in summer to SJJ). Those places offer way more bang for the buck, and middle class GCCers are becoming more savvy with their money due to the oil (VAT, new taxes, etc). Even Saudis or Emiratis do not like to be ripped off for no reason anymore.

And if those GCC are looking for "nightlife", Europe is closer than ever. Emiratis are already visa-free to Schengen. Coupled that to the infinite amount of European destinations with Emirates/Etihad/FlyDubai, it means that they can be in a few hours without any visa hassle in the European city of their choice.

directorguy wrote:
Lebanon is known for its beautiful scenery, great food, hospitality, nightlife, fashion, plastic surgery, but has no appeal for visitors from Europe. No all inclusive resorts, or guided tours. There are no specific iconic touristic attractions in Lebanon (most educated people know of Petra but not of the ruins at Baalabek). MEA has never offered a Beirut city tour or stopover package unlike RJ in Amman.


Most Arabs posting here are a bit condescending with Jordan. Jordan is not about all-inclusive resorts (maybe something in Aqaba or the Dead Sea; it is definitely not Hurghada or SSH :) ) or guided tours, or at least not in any other different way than an European destination. I have toured with friends Jordan on a rented car and there seemed to be people like that (renting a car without a group) everywhere. Jordan is a easy country for non-Arab tourists. There are no no-go zones (like maybe in Lebanon or Egypt) and Jordanians are very easy going and drama free even if you don't speak Arabic.

And Jordan has been very smart. Royal Jordanian has certainly helped developing the tourism industry in the country. And now they have made this deal with Ryanair to add new destinations (I don't think there is a single destination repeated with RJ) to reach new cities where it doesn't make economic sense for RJ to fly to.

Btw AMM closed 2017 with 7.9 million PAX (interestingly Amman has grown every single year for the least 10 years, even during the Arab Spring). BEY closed at 8.2 million. I wouldn't be surprised that already in 2018 AMM comes ahead of BEY. If not, definitely in 2019 it should be the case with the "Ryanair effect" (most routes start in October 2018, so only 2 months of operations this year).
 
Cedric13
Topic Author
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:51 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
directorguy wrote:
Lebanon is a great destination, but is primarily for visitors from other Arab countries. Ironically, most Arabs would perceive Jordan as a "dull" destination whereas they would go to Lebanon in an instant. The inverse is true for Westerners.


I am not sure this is the case anymore. GCC Arabs have been moving away not only due to political reasons, but also probably due to economic reasons. And this largely due to cheap airfares. Now there are connections from Sharm El Sheikh or Antalya to Saudi, and Qatar started flights to Antalya or Bodrum. Not to mention Bosnia for those looking for a green landscape (e.g. FlyDubai is three daily in summer to SJJ). Those places offer way more bang for the buck, and middle class GCCers are becoming more savvy with their money due to the oil (VAT, new taxes, etc). Even Saudis or Emiratis do not like to be ripped off for no reason anymore.

And if those GCC are looking for "nightlife", Europe is closer than ever. Emiratis are already visa-free to Schengen. Coupled that to the infinite amount of European destinations with Emirates/Etihad/FlyDubai, it means that they can be in a few hours without any visa hassle in the European city of their choice.

directorguy wrote:
Lebanon is known for its beautiful scenery, great food, hospitality, nightlife, fashion, plastic surgery, but has no appeal for visitors from Europe. No all inclusive resorts, or guided tours. There are no specific iconic touristic attractions in Lebanon (most educated people know of Petra but not of the ruins at Baalabek). MEA has never offered a Beirut city tour or stopover package unlike RJ in Amman.


Most Arabs posting here are a bit condescending with Jordan. Jordan is not about all-inclusive resorts (maybe something in Aqaba or the Dead Sea; it is definitely not Hurghada or SSH :) ) or guided tours, or at least not in any other different way than an European destination. I have toured with friends Jordan on a rented car and there seemed to be people like that (renting a car without a group) everywhere. Jordan is a easy country for non-Arab tourists. There are no no-go zones (like maybe in Lebanon or Egypt) and Jordanians are very easy going and drama free even if you don't speak Arabic.

And Jordan has been very smart. Royal Jordanian has certainly helped developing the tourism industry in the country. And now they have made this deal with Ryanair to add new destinations (I don't think there is a single destination repeated with RJ) to reach new cities where it doesn't make economic sense for RJ to fly to.

Btw AMM closed 2017 with 7.9 million PAX (interestingly Amman has grown every single year for the least 10 years, even during the Arab Spring). BEY closed at 8.2 million. I wouldn't be surprised that already in 2018 AMM comes ahead of BEY. If not, definitely in 2019 it should be the case with the "Ryanair effect" (most routes start in October 2018, so only 2 months of operations this year).

Beirut is operating at a maximum capacity as the terminal was designed to handle 6 million but the numbers are going up every year... Even more than half a million people passed through the airport already in august (The month is set to be the busiest in recent airport history) but yeah just see some pics and notice how packed it is...
https://www.facebook.com/29507132727673 ... 501031969/
https://www.facebook.com/29507132727673 ... 417875844/
Interesting enough, there are 58 airlines serving Beirut while Amman has 37 but like you said the addition of 14 destinations by Ryanair, Copenhagen by RJ and Norwegian aswell as Vienna by Laudamotion will surely bump the number of pax at the airport.
 
EL-AL
Posts: 1481
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:29 am

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:29 pm

Also need to mention that Lebanon is pretty small country with its borders are with Israel which is closed, and Syria - say no more; so tourists cannot combine visit to Lebanon and visit to other countries. This is not the case in Israel/Jordan: Many use the cheap tickets to VDA to land in EIlat, than crossing the border to visit Petra in Jordan, Heading north to the Jordanian side of the dead sea (hotels there are cheaper than in Israel), than cross back to Israel to visit Jerusalem and Tel Aviv than exit back via TLV. Others of course do the other way around, and I'm sure that many who will fly cheap to Jordan using Ryanair starting this October will also combine Israel on their visit.

In addition, the border crossing between Israel and Egypt in Taba is packed all the time and open during high season 24/7, as many visitors also visit Israel/Jordan while visiting Egypt, and the other way around. Therefore, visiting "Lebanon" is practically visiting only Beirut, with maybe one or two daytrips outside the city.
 
Cedric13
Topic Author
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:09 pm

EL-AL wrote:
Also need to mention that Lebanon is pretty small country with its borders are with Israel which is closed, and Syria - say no more; so tourists cannot combine visit to Lebanon and visit to other countries. This is not the case in Israel/Jordan: Many use the cheap tickets to VDA to land in EIlat, than crossing the border to visit Petra in Jordan, Heading north to the Jordanian side of the dead sea (hotels there are cheaper than in Israel), than cross back to Israel to visit Jerusalem and Tel Aviv than exit back via TLV. Others of course do the other way around, and I'm sure that many who will fly cheap to Jordan using Ryanair starting this October will also combine Israel on their visit.

In addition, the border crossing between Israel and Egypt in Taba is packed all the time and open during high season 24/7, as many visitors also visit Israel/Jordan while visiting Egypt, and the other way around. Therefore, visiting "Lebanon" is practically visiting only Beirut, with maybe one or two daytrips outside the city.

Actually Lebanon is nicer outside of Beirut...
Beirut is the city but Lebanon is know for the beaches that are outside of the capital and in the winter the ski slopes are 1h30 from the city and I know some tourists that spent a day in beirut and like 3 to 4 days outside of the city.
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:51 pm

Whatever, Cedric13. On a global scale, the beaches and skiing in Lebanon would rank really low.
The Lebanese think that just because the beaches and skiing in Lebanon are nicer than those in Syria and Iraq then they’re some kind of marvel. Any Southern European country has better beaches and skiing than Lebanon.

Lebanon has a unique cultural/religious history that cannot be found elsewhere and that’s about it. Unfortunately, that heritage is also the source of all it’s troubles.
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:42 pm

beirut is probably the most fascinating city in the Levant. BEY airport is unfortunately a dump, badly run, and badly organised. If they would privatise it it would be run much better, without even expanding the terminal. If the situation stays as it is today, there is no future of dramatic pax increase ..
MEA can not offer connecting flights on a serious scale with the facilities at BEY being as they are. BEY is in desperate need of a management team that knows how International airports are run.
They will also need to organise public transport from and to BEY. It is scandalous that the only way to and from BEY is the horrifically priced, filthy, and dishonest airport taxi cabs.
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:54 pm

They could built the best airport in the world but they won’t be able to attract connecting traffic. Lebanon would probably need 15 years of unbroken political stability to overcome its image problem as a dangerous place.

There are far too many places to connect for people to even take the slightest risk of being stuck in the middle of gun fight.
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:16 am

hisham wrote:
They could built the best airport in the world but they won’t be able to attract connecting traffic. Lebanon would probably need 15 years of unbroken political stability to overcome its image problem as a dangerous place.

There are far too many places to connect for people to even take the slightest risk of being stuck in the middle of gun fight.


Oh they will come.. the right product .. right prices
.it. will probably take 15 years to build a fantastic terminal . I don t know where you are living but I haven’t witnessed gun battles. Horrific traffic yes, but gun battles, no.
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:29 am

Lucky you. On Two out of my last three trips, a car blew up.
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:32 am

EL-AL wrote:
Also need to mention that Lebanon is pretty small country with its borders are with Israel which is closed, and Syria - say no more; so tourists cannot combine visit to Lebanon and visit to other countries. This is not the case in Israel/Jordan: Many use the cheap tickets to VDA to land in EIlat, than crossing the border to visit Petra in Jordan, Heading north to the Jordanian side of the dead sea (hotels there are cheaper than in Israel), than cross back to Israel to visit Jerusalem and Tel Aviv than exit back via TLV. Others of course do the other way around, and I'm sure that many who will fly cheap to Jordan using Ryanair starting this October will also combine Israel on their visit.

In addition, the border crossing between Israel and Egypt in Taba is packed all the time and open during high season 24/7, as many visitors also visit Israel/Jordan while visiting Egypt, and the other way around. Therefore, visiting "Lebanon" is practically visiting only Beirut, with maybe one or two daytrips outside the city.



in this particular case i think the situation in Syria actually helped BEY numbers go up . DAM has limited number of flights at the moment . whenever you go through BEY a huge percentage of pax are actually syrians. i am not complaining but i do believe the situation in Syria helped BEY numbers increase in despite of the economical situation of Lebanon that's really going down the hill .
 
ME720
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:08 am

hisham wrote:
Lucky you. On Two out of my last three trips, a car blew up.


I m sorry to hear.. Nothing has happened in a long while. BEY had not shut down since July 2005..
Anyway.. back to topic.
Lebanon has decided not to sign open sky agreement with the EU. A big mistake in my opinion. As they are limiting traffic by not aiming that agreement. MEA might suffer but will adapt to the new situation.. as for the Syrian traffic in and out of BEY, obviously has helped up the numbers of Pax. Any one has exact number of Syrian passengers?
 
hisham
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Re: Why aren’t the low cost giants operating flights to Beirut?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:33 am

Are you one of those that keep repeating "nothing has happened" for three hours as they rock their body back and forth?

If you think business people and mass-scale tourists will connect in BEY for the 'right product', you're really deluded. Unless the product includes a bulletproof vest of course.

BEY has not closed since July 2005? Hahaha. It closed in August 2006 and in May 2008. Must have been because the open sky agreement was closed those month.

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