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Dimitris7701
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SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:53 pm

SKG in Northern Greece is a rapidly growing airport that serves the second largest city of Greece Salonica.

As a result, demand for new routes is getting bigger.

I believe SKG-LHR daily and SKG-JFK seasonally once or twice a week are realistic!

What is your opinion on these routes?

Do you have any route from/to SKG to propose?
 
LTenEleven
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:17 pm

A good use of LHR slots?

JFK - keep dreaming.
 
SCQ83
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:24 pm

MAD on Iberia Express would be a nice seasonal route.

Madrid is the largest market in Europe without non-stop links to Northern Greece, and this way IAG could connect some summer traffic between the US and Thessaloniki.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Why is there no SKG-BCN? Rather surprising that Vueling isn't doing that one.
 
SCQ83
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:04 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Why is there no SKG-BCN? Rather surprising that Vueling isn't doing that one.


There is one weekly flight in peak summer season (bookable in Vueling.com), until September 9. Ryanair also flies SKG-GRO twice weekly in summer season.
 
marcogr12
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:56 pm

Vueling's service of just 1w is a joke,not convenient times and certainly no frequency and that's why most people fly either via ATH or with FR..but GRO is not El Prat..As for services out of SKG not only is a MAD and LHR connection missing (though there are LGW,STN,LTN flights) but direct flights to other cities are either missing at all or are at a very low frequency,served by just one airline seasonally...EDI is seasonal 1w with jet2..WAW no service (but there is FR WMI),KRK,DUB,LIS,VLC,OPO,BRS,OSL,MLA,MXP,CTA,PMO,TLL,VNO either...CPH,ZRH,GVA,CDG/ORY,BRU are seasonal..FCO is served only by AZ and just in August..Rest of year CIA..Easy started LTN and VCE this year but we don't know if we'll see them again..OTP is flown only by RO and with ATRs..There are no Norwegian flights,Volotea flights..MAN has only U2 in winter (but departs at 600am from MAN)..BHX is covered seasonally with 1w Jet2 and 1w Thomas Cook..The list of not well-covered routes is endless..FR does fly to a lot of destinations year-round but it's not quite the same e.g. CRL instead of BRU, BVA instead of ORY..and its STN service arrives at midnight at STN..On the other hand they provide some nice secondarydirect routes to BLQ,NAP,NUE,HAM,BTS,EIN,FKB,DTM,GOT..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:57 pm

Just flew SKG-BCN on VY in excellence class, which is great as it is all you can drink and eat from the menu in the first row with an empty middle seat. It’s a seasonal once a week 3am departure. A319 was not even full at the peak of the season. Seemed like many Bulgarians/balkanese on board.

On the way to SKG I flew A3 business via FRA (excellent attentive service with nice Greek dinner service btw) with many British and US pax connecting presumably from other *A member airlines - a true sweeper service and a 100% full A321.

Airport Looks like an aircraft carrier stranded on the beaches of Greece, not welcoming at all. But on arrival business class pax had an apron bus to themselves and on departure at 3am all duty free shops were open. It’s run by FRAPORT.

Airport staff is less Mediterranean but more Eastern European.

What I am trying to say: it’s still quite provincial but has some seasonal potential. Sure FRAPORT has a focus on strengthening the FRA feeders before pursuing direct long haul.
Last edited by JayBCNLON on Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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OA260
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:17 pm

SKG got hit hard when the crisis hit. Its only recently gaining back services it lost. Back in the old OA days SKG was quite well served and often main cities of Europe such as FRA LHR were served non stop or as a tag with the ATH flights. The only thing is not many liked the SKG stop if they were flying LHR-ATH. Even though the passengers stayed onboard and it was only for 45 mins.

SKG will gain LGW or LHR again most likely with A3 at some stage.

SKG is also used by a lot of cross border passengers from FYR Macedonia and Bulgaria. Its often easier and cheaper for them to fly from there. I have been on flights in and out of SKG where 30% of the plane was cross border originating.

Good to see more positive growth at Greeces main airports :

The 14 Greek regional airports achieved a 7.2 percent increase in combined traffic to about 5.4 million passengers. The three busiest gateways in Fraport's Greek portfolio were Rhodes Airport (RHO) with some 1.1 million passengers (up 4.0 percent), Thessaloniki Airport (SKG) with 812,540 passengers (up 7.2 percent) and Corfu Airport (CFU) with 686,894 passengers (up 10.9 percent).


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 95441.html
 
alitis
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:32 pm

On a historical note, Olympic Airways, in the 70's,(or early 80's) had a very short lived one day a week in the summer (Thursdays I believe) JFK-SKG-ATH routing that operated only eastbound. I don't remember if it was a 707 or 747. Perhaps someone can confirm.
 
believeinflight
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:11 pm

How about SKG to Montana?
 
Freshside3
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:17 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
What I am trying to say: it’s still quite provincial but has some seasonal potential. Sure FRAPORT has a focus on strengthening the FRA feeders before pursuing direct long haul.

There is the question about the runway......was it lengthened enough to handle long-range planes?

But ATH has found that the routes they want/need are still elusive. If ATH can't get them, well, even a slimmer chance for SKG.
 
Freshside3
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:52 am

Dimitris7701 wrote:
SKG in Northern Greece is a rapidly growing airport that serves the second largest city of Greece Salonica.

As a result, demand for new routes is getting bigger.

I believe SKG-LHR daily and SKG-JFK seasonally once or twice a week are realistic!

What is your opinion on these routes?

Do you have any route from/to SKG to propose?

JFK isn't going to work. No Greek airline has long-range planes. Aegean is refusing to buy any. And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.

As for London, you already have Gatwick on BA. And low-cost carriers avoid LHR...they would put the flight out of STN, LTN, etc.

I don't currently see any BUD-SKG, though it has existed before on Malev. So, BUD would be a really good addition.
Also, Ellinair doing more secondary airports in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
ETM, since the new airport is opening up, and the number of Israeli visitors has increased by quite a lot, during the past year or two.
 
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Melbourne
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:09 am

JFK was served with 707s via Paris Orly initially in the 70s. currently it is not possible to operate Trans Atlantic operations from SKG due to runway length restrictions which are planned to be extended in the future.

SKG has seen growth enough in my opinion for now, A3 operates a good regional and medium haul market to Europe and Russia/CIS as well. Flights from Asia are covered with Turkish Airlines, Qatar airways and Fly Dubai. That's perfect for a secondary Greek airport who 1 year ago had no connections to Asia.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:15 am

believeinflight wrote:
How about SKG to Montana?

Slam dunk. Missoula has a thriving Greek and Macedonian expat community!
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
SCQ83
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:49 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
What I am trying to say: it’s still quite provincial but has some seasonal potential. Sure FRAPORT has a focus on strengthening the FRA feeders before pursuing direct long haul.


The airport has almost doubled the number of PAX they had a few years ago. I was in the city last year and I was shocked at how many tourists there were anywhere compared to my last time to the city a few years ago during the crisis, which seemed like The Walking Dead. Definitely all those Ryanair and Wizzair routes have helped massively to make SKG "less" provincial. The change was notable. But I agree the city and the airport have still a long way to go. In a way, I always thought SKG is the "Greek OPO". And OPO has grown from 3 to 12 million PAX in a few years.

Freshside3 wrote:
I don't currently see any BUD-SKG, though it has existed before on Malev. So, BUD would be a really good addition.
Also, Ellinair doing more secondary airports in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.


BUD is served by both Ryanair and Wizzair.
 
jodieellis
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:04 am

Next one is SKG-GLA or SKG-EDI probably, or one of these routes has already served by one of the airlines?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:10 am

Freshside3 wrote:
And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.

What then do you claim to know/understand that they don't?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Dimitris7701
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:57 am

Melbourne wrote:
JFK was served with 707s via Paris Orly initially in the 70s. currently it is not possible to operate Trans Atlantic operations from SKG due to runway length restrictions which are planned to be extended in the future.

SKG has seen growth enough in my opinion for now, A3 operates a good regional and medium haul market to Europe and Russia/CIS as well. Flights from Asia are covered with Turkish Airlines, Qatar airways and Fly Dubai. That's perfect for a secondary Greek airport who 1 year ago had no connections to Asia.


Qatar airways service is really successful, I wouldn't be surprised if they add more frequencies or even changing the aircraft!

Also, in the end of the year the extended runway will be ready! Also, back in 2015 they tried to bring back JFK via BUD all year round but -due to the small runway- it failed mainly because flights started from Kavala (a smaller city, not really close to SKG) and capital controls... However, in my opinion there is still demand for at least one seasonal service to JFK or EWR! Do you think that this can happen in the future if the runway is ready and there is an airline with long range aircrafts?
 
Blerg
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:00 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.

What then do you claim to know/understand that they don't?


Well he might be refering to their conservative approach to the Greek market. I can think of two things that could change:

1. introduction of year-round flights on US carriers.
2. someone launching ORD-ATH which is a massive market without non-stop flights.

EK flies year-round to EWR and initially loads were cataclysmic but they have improved since flights were launched.
 
Dimitris7701
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:04 am

SCQ83 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
What I am trying to say: it’s still quite provincial but has some seasonal potential. Sure FRAPORT has a focus on strengthening the FRA feeders before pursuing direct long haul.


The airport has almost doubled the number of PAX they had a few years ago. I was in the city last year and I was shocked at how many tourists there were anywhere compared to my last time to the city a few years ago during the crisis, which seemed like The Walking Dead. Definitely all those Ryanair and Wizzair routes have helped massively to make SKG "less" provincial. The change was notable. But I agree the city and the airport have still a long way to go. In a way, I always thought SKG is the "Greek OPO". And OPO has grown from 3 to 12 million PAX in a few years.

Your comparison of OPO with SKG is really good actually but I feel like SKG hasn't an as great position in the map..OPO may become a detour of LIS hub especially for South America, but SKG is really close to IST so it's not easy for them to "steal" passengers from TK feed ( from Balkan countries).
Last edited by Dimitris7701 on Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Dimitris7701
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:07 am

SCQ83 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
The airport has almost doubled the number of PAX they had a few years ago. I was in the city last year and I was shocked at how many tourists there were anywhere compared to my last time to the city a few years ago during the crisis, which seemed like The Walking Dead. Definitely all those Ryanair and Wizzair routes have helped massively to make SKG "less" provincial. The change was notable. But I agree the city and the airport have still a long way to go. In a way, I always thought SKG is the "Greek OPO". And OPO has grown from 3 to 12 million PAX in a few years.


Your comparison of OPO with SKG is really good actually but I feel like SKG hasn't an as great position in the map..OPO may become a detour of LIS hub especially for South America, but SKG is really close to IST so it's not easy for them to "steal" passengers from TK feed ( from Balkan countries).
 
Draken21fx
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:00 am

I would bet we had a topic on SKG a few months ago and again the same comparison appeared in there.

Anyway...the main difference is that the SKG terminal is in a shocking state, which is not the case for OPO. Also OPO terminal is overbuild so it can accommodate traffic which is not the case for SKG. Lastly dont think that Fraport will help SKG too much as they will just invest enough to go by and make a profit.

Traffic wise there is a huge difference. Around 40% of the traffic to SKG is domestic and the majority of it is coming from ATH. LIS-OPO is much lower due to the two cities been only 300km away.

If I am not mistaken Greece has sold the railways as well and the only major route they have is Athens to Thessaloniki. The consortium that bought them has stated that within 2019 the ~500km distance will take 3h 20mins on train.

Eventually once Greece invests a bit in the infrastructure of the route the train will kill the ATH-SKG traffic as it has done in other European countries. That is no danger that OPO faces.

At least the 10/28 extension project is progressing in SKG.

Lastly Thessaloniki is a beautiful city and it could be up there on the top destination for city breaks alongside Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona, Prague or any other medium sized city in Europe but unfortunately there is no vision and no planning so I wouldnt be too optimistic of the future of SKG. Just check the passenger numbers between KRK and SKG, two cities and airports directly comparable. KRK has around 1mil more international arrivals and realistically the SKG touristic product should be better compared to KRK.

Bottom line is there has to be a long term master plan as Krakow or Prague have done the past 10-15 years and unfortunately I do not see that happening for Thessaloniki or SKG in particular.
 
Freshside3
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:52 am

Fraport will be getting an infusion of cash soon, due to the sale of part of their stake at HAJ.
http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/ge ... er-airport
 
SCQ83
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:01 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
Lastly Thessaloniki is a beautiful city and it could be up there on the top destination for city breaks alongside Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona, Prague or any other medium sized city in Europe but unfortunately there is no vision and no planning so I wouldnt be too optimistic of the future of SKG. Just check the passenger numbers between KRK and SKG, two cities and airports directly comparable. KRK has around 1mil more international arrivals and realistically the SKG touristic product should be better compared to KRK.

Bottom line is there has to be a long term master plan as Krakow or Prague have done the past 10-15 years and unfortunately I do not see that happening for Thessaloniki or SKG in particular.


Those cities you mentioned are at another level. Krakow has not only an extremely well preserved Old Town (compare that to the polikatikias next to the White Tower in Thessaloniki) but is also the gateway to Auschwitz, and it also has the Salt Mines which I think is the most visited attraction in Poland.

I like the comparison with OPO but IMO Porto does not have much going on for it yet they have been able to market it as a city-break destination with one Music Hall here and one museum there and so on. I agree with your point, the main problem is Greece is the lack of vision. Other than the beaches/islands or picturesque places like Santorini (which basically have been like that for decades), it doesn't seem anyone is interested to add new amenities to the cultural/tourist offer anywhere outside Athens. The only new thing in SKG in the last decade is Nea Paralia which is not anything particularly exciting from a tourism point of view and it is awfully maintained.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:09 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.


Also known as "they don't want to lose money."
 
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Melbourne
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:20 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.


Also known as "they don't want to lose money."


Ignorant? Delta flies twice daily A330-300s during the peak season, American daily A330-200 and United daily 767-400ER. Basically never had that amount of service ever before between the two. Yes Delta had services to Atlanta as well in the past and that was seasonal but their JFK services were operated by 767-300s which have been upgraded to the 333s now. Year round Emirates has stepped in and utilising daily 77W, how can you compare that to the 763 of DL or 343 of OA in the past?
 
Draken21fx
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:36 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
Lastly Thessaloniki is a beautiful city and it could be up there on the top destination for city breaks alongside Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona, Prague or any other medium sized city in Europe but unfortunately there is no vision and no planning so I wouldnt be too optimistic of the future of SKG. Just check the passenger numbers between KRK and SKG, two cities and airports directly comparable. KRK has around 1mil more international arrivals and realistically the SKG touristic product should be better compared to KRK.

Bottom line is there has to be a long term master plan as Krakow or Prague have done the past 10-15 years and unfortunately I do not see that happening for Thessaloniki or SKG in particular.


Those cities you mentioned are at another level. Krakow has not only an extremely well preserved Old Town (compare that to the polikatikias next to the White Tower in Thessaloniki) but is also the gateway to Auschwitz, and it also has the Salt Mines which I think is the most visited attraction in Poland.

...


I do respectfully disagree with you :)

a. KTW is in the catchment area of Auschwitz so add another 4mil passenger from there.
b. Krakow is beautiful indeed as a city, as it was not bombed during WWII, BUT it lacks a lot as a summer destination. SKG on the contrary is catering for all season tourism as it is close to winter resorts/mountains plus in the summer time some of the best beaches of Greece are a short drive away.
c. As for antiquities maybe Thessaloniki is not doing a great job advertising them but it has an amazing Byzantine history with some really interesting buildings, it is not only the White Tower.

Bottom line in my book Thessaloniki with a bit of polishing has much more to offer throughout the year compared to Krakow and it still lacks the traffic levels of it.
 
marcogr12
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:09 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Just flew SKG-BCN on VY in excellence class, which is great as it is all you can drink and eat from the menu in the first row with an empty middle seat. It’s a seasonal once a week 3am departure. A319 was not even full at the peak of the season. Seemed like many Bulgarians/balkanese on board.

On the way to SKG I flew A3 business via FRA (excellent attentive service with nice Greek dinner service btw) with many British and US pax connecting presumably from other *A member airlines - a true sweeper service and a 100% full A321.

Airport Looks like an aircraft carrier stranded on the beaches of Greece, not welcoming at all. But on arrival business class pax had an apron bus to themselves and on departure at 3am all duty free shops were open. It’s run by FRAPORT.

Airport staff is less Mediterranean but more Eastern European.

What I am trying to say: it’s still quite provincial but has some seasonal potential. Sure FRAPORT has a focus on strengthening the FRA feeders before pursuing direct long haul.


Vueling's route planning is awful and terribly inconvenient for families with kids..Flying at 3am and arriving at 5am is not the best..nor a 1w flight with no option to return earlier..That's why Ryanair's SKG-GRO is fuller and more popular despite the trek from Girona to BCN..Not to mention that not a lot of people know Vueling, contrary to easyjet,ryanair and eurowings..If Vueling wants to do serious business,because there is demand for BCN and it has the advantage of offering great connections, it better change its flights times and increase frequency like it did in ATH and islands..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
marcogr12
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:11 pm

jodieellis wrote:
Next one is SKG-GLA or SKG-EDI probably, or one of these routes has already served by one of the airlines?


Jet2 flies from both seasonally 1w
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
And US carriers are generally ignorant and narrow-minded, when it comes to assessing the USA-Greece market.

What then do you claim to know/understand that they don't?

Well he might be refering to their conservative approach to the Greek market.

When's the last time we've we had three US airlines offering nonstops to three USA hubs from Greece? And that's on top of EK's TATL service as well.

What's "conservative" about that?

I mean, does this person actually believe that major Greek destinations like SKG/HER/JSI/JTR/etc, which don't even have year-round service to the Euro superhubs... are somehow prime markets for TATL service, if only those dastardly US3 weren't such ignorant meanies?

If the US carriers know anything about the Greek market, it's how much of a money-pit it can be outside of peak season. Makes the Italian market look tame.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Freshside3
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm

Greece does not have a transatlantic carrier, as mentioned before. But there is also the lack of charter services from the US to Greece, who are on a budget. Charters used to be a big thing in the 70s/80s/90s. Especially from New York. There was also nonstop scheduled service on both TWA and Olympic from BOS, at various intervals.

We now have considerably more people flying from the USA to Greece, than in, let's say 1983......but on less planes/seats than they had back then. Of course, everything is full on virtually every day in the summer. (No surprise).

Easter is also something that is ignored, too. It's a much bigger holiday in Greece, than in the USA, in fact, in most countries. In fact, the busiest non-Summer travel time. DL has barely gotten service started in time for Holy Week. While AA/UA don't get started until later on.

Not all people are on cheap tickets, either. There has been an increase in "premium vacation" travel....as in the guys that rent out villas in Santorini, and it goes with the territory, that they buy Business Class tickets. Which is different in the past. Also, more Americans golfing in Greece. And the season is longer than it used to be.

Five flights from the USA is definitely not enough for the market. And all of these flights are from, or close to, New York.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:16 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Five flights from the USA is definitely not enough for the market.

Based on what-- other that you continuously conflating POPULAR demand with PROFITABLE demand.



Freshside3 wrote:
And all of these flights are from, or close to, New York.

Gee, can't imagine why....

(Greek and Greek-American population in red)
Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Freshside3
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:49 am

New York may have the most Greeks, by a long shot. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only place that has local ethnic demand....Boston and Chicago could warrant getting flights for the summer.

Plus, they are having an all-time record high amount of tourists.
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2018/0 ... vals-2018/
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:09 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Boston and Chicago could warrant getting flights for the summer.

Perhaps, but take care to not make the classic AvGeek mistake of forgetting about Opportunity Cost.

A non-NYC route might be able to eek out a profit, but if that profit isn't bigger than what could be obtained by simply adding yet another JFK-ATH (or really, anywhere else to anywhere else) frequency, then why would an airline bother placing an widebody (e.g. limited asset) on the smaller profit-potential route?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SCQ83
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:05 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Not all people are on cheap tickets, either. There has been an increase in "premium vacation" travel....as in the guys that rent out villas in Santorini, and it goes with the territory, that they buy Business Class tickets. Which is different in the past. Also, more Americans golfing in Greece. And the season is longer than it used to be.


No doubt some areas in Greece have very high-end tourism, notably Santorini and Mykonos. But that is not the case with SKG. Ultimately that is the reason why BA flies to JMK and JTR from both LHR and LCY, while SKG sees only LGW.

And for instance JTR in summer has flights with Alitalia, Austrian, BA (LHR), Brussels, Finnair, Iberia and Lufthansa. Since a Santorini-US flight is very unlikely, those American tourists have a lot of connection possibilities also in those European hubs. No need to fly non-stop to ATH from the US.
 
Blerg
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:04 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What then do you claim to know/understand that they don't?

Well he might be refering to their conservative approach to the Greek market.

When's the last time we've we had three US airlines offering nonstops to three USA hubs from Greece? And that's on top of EK's TATL service as well.

What's "conservative" about that?

I mean, does this person actually believe that major Greek destinations like SKG/HER/JSI/JTR/etc, which don't even have year-round service to the Euro superhubs... are somehow prime markets for TATL service, if only those dastardly US3 weren't such ignorant meanies?

If the US carriers know anything about the Greek market, it's how much of a money-pit it can be outside of peak season. Makes the Italian market look tame.


About a decade ago Delta, US Airways, Olympic and Continental all flew between Athens and North America. So having several US airlines fly to Athens at the same time is not unheard of. AA from PHL and DL from JFK could make the route work in winter especially if they rely on connecting traffic. After all, Emirates manages to fill a B77W purely with local demand both in summer and winter. If the route wasn't performing well they would have cut it.

So yes, it is a rather conservative approach because they are only flying to Athens when it's 'easy' and when everyone can fill a plane. Developing a year-round market takes more effort.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Well he might be refering to their conservative approach to the Greek market.

When's the last time we've we had three US airlines offering nonstops to three USA hubs from Greece? And that's on top of EK's TATL service as well.

What's "conservative" about that?

I mean, does this person actually believe that major Greek destinations like SKG/HER/JSI/JTR/etc, which don't even have year-round service to the Euro superhubs... are somehow prime markets for TATL service, if only those dastardly US3 weren't such ignorant meanies?

If the US carriers know anything about the Greek market, it's how much of a money-pit it can be outside of peak season. Makes the Italian market look tame.


About a decade ago Delta, US Airways, Olympic and Continental all flew between Athens and North America. So having several US airlines fly to Athens at the same time is not unheard of. AA from PHL and DL from JFK could make the route work in winter especially if they rely on connecting traffic. After all, Emirates manages to fill a B77W purely with local demand both in summer and winter. If the route wasn't performing well they would have cut it.

So yes, it is a rather conservative approach because they are only flying to Athens when it's 'easy' and when everyone can fill a plane. Developing a year-round market takes more effort.

And at that time, there were charter services to Greece, on top of the DL/US/OA/CO flights that were already there.

Yes, indeed, year-round service is quite tricky. But even in the Summer peak season, there are some anomalies, concerning the various US connection markets(which is a subject by itself).
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:31 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Not all people are on cheap tickets, either. There has been an increase in "premium vacation" travel....as in the guys that rent out villas in Santorini, and it goes with the territory, that they buy Business Class tickets. Which is different in the past. Also, more Americans golfing in Greece. And the season is longer than it used to be.


No doubt some areas in Greece have very high-end tourism, notably Santorini and Mykonos. But that is not the case with SKG.

Correct on that aspect. But with one exception---Chalkidiki, which is close to SKG.
 
JayBCNLON
Posts: 318
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Chalkidiki is beautiful and full of foreign tourists and real estate ownership. Many Russian, Moldovan, Macedonian, Bulgarian license plates. Great potential for another great tourism destination.
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:37 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Chalkidiki is beautiful and full of foreign tourists and real estate ownership. Many Russian, Moldovan, Macedonian, Bulgarian license plates. Great potential for another great tourism destination.


Indeed and relatively undiscovered for ppl outside the Balkans and East Europe...

Another issue in SKG compared to KRK as an example is that it lacks business travel as there is not much European or international companies based in the city compared to medium sized cities in Europe.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:54 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Greece does not have a transatlantic carrier, as mentioned before. But there is also the lack of charter services from the US to Greece, who are on a budget. Charters used to be a big thing in the 70s/80s/90s. Especially from New York. There was also nonstop scheduled service on both TWA and Olympic from BOS, at various intervals.

We now have considerably more people flying from the USA to Greece, than in, let's say 1983......but on less planes/seats than they had back then. Of course, everything is full on virtually every day in the summer. (No surprise).

Easter is also something that is ignored, too. It's a much bigger holiday in Greece, than in the USA, in fact, in most countries. In fact, the busiest non-Summer travel time. DL has barely gotten service started in time for Holy Week. While AA/UA don't get started until later on.

Not all people are on cheap tickets, either. There has been an increase in "premium vacation" travel....as in the guys that rent out villas in Santorini, and it goes with the territory, that they buy Business Class tickets. Which is different in the past. Also, more Americans golfing in Greece. And the season is longer than it used to be.

Five flights from the USA is definitely not enough for the market. And all of these flights are from, or close to, New York.


The problem is that it isn't really profitable, especially outside the summer season. Emirates flies Athens to New York (Newark) year round, but as a Dubai-Athens tag-on 5th freedom. As for flying beyond New York or Newark, the problem becomes that it's longer than a 24-hour rotation.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
because they are only flying to Athens when it's 'easy' and when everyone can fill a plane. Developing a year-round market takes more effort.

Again, refer to Reply#34.

  • COULD they make it work during the low season? Possibly.
  • Why SHOULD they bother, if they can make more money with that ship placed elsewhere at that time?

....there apparently is no sufficient answer for that, because if there was-- they'd DO it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4243
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:38 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
because they are only flying to Athens when it's 'easy' and when everyone can fill a plane. Developing a year-round market takes more effort.

Again, refer to Reply#34.

  • COULD they make it work during the low season? Possibly.
  • Why SHOULD they bother, if they can make more money with that ship placed elsewhere at that time?

....there apparently is no sufficient answer for that, because if there was-- they'd DO it.


Well it's not uncommon for airlines to miss a business opportunity. Like I said, given the fact that Emirates successfully operates year-round flights to EWR only goes to show that there is sufficient demand. That said, EK had to suffer great loses the first winter season before flights started to pay off. During their first full month of flights (April 2017) they carried 10.469 passengers or, on average, 174 per flight.

Well, in my opinion DL should bother with ATH because if they had year-round flights then it would have made it more difficult for EK to establish itself on the market. Same story with ORD. ATH has been trying to get Chicago flights but no one was interested, probably for the same reason why there weren't flights to Athens in winter. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually approached EK or QR to fly the route. Unfortunately due to the Trump deal, MEB3 won't be expanding flights from Europe to the US which means that in the end, it will be European passengers who are going to be at a disadvantage so that US carriers can make their billions in profit.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:05 am

Blerg wrote:
Well it's not uncommon for airlines to miss a business opportunity.

In new ones yes, though much less common in markets for which they have decades worth of operational data.



Blerg wrote:
Like I said, given the fact that Emirates successfully operates year-round flights to EWR only goes to show that there is sufficient demand.

You still don't get it:
Because one airline finds a given route's revenues/margins/etc acceptable, does not in any way mean its financials would be satisfactory to another carrier RELATIVE TO what that carrier could/does/would derive by deploying the asset elsewhere.

...or even not deploying the asset at all; as is often the case here, when DL and others find it more financially savvy park some aircraft during low seasons, rather than deploy them to marginal destinations.

Not sure how to make it any more simplistic, but it's truly not a difficult concept.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4243
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:35 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Well it's not uncommon for airlines to miss a business opportunity.

In new ones yes, though much less common in markets for which they have decades worth of operational data.



Blerg wrote:
Like I said, given the fact that Emirates successfully operates year-round flights to EWR only goes to show that there is sufficient demand.

You still don't get it:
Because one airline finds a given route's revenues/margins/etc acceptable, does not in any way mean its financials would be satisfactory to another carrier RELATIVE TO what that carrier could/does/would derive by deploying the asset elsewhere.

...or even not deploying the asset at all; as is often the case here, when DL and others find it more financially savvy park some aircraft during low seasons, rather than deploy them to marginal destinations.

Not sure how to make it any more simplistic, but it's truly not a difficult concept.


I get what you mean, no need to be condescending- though that seems to be the norm with you.

By having year-round flights to Athens, Emirates is building a much stronger brand by offering far more stability and convenience to its customers. By being continously present on the market it is more likely that when summer comes passengers will be more inclined to book a flight with them. So DL might be winning in short-term but EK in long-term.

After all, Emirates is a professionally run airline and they have been known to stick to a market and to develop it. I am sure they are not going to burn money in Athens just for the sake of making their route map pretty.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:58 am

Blerg wrote:
I get what you mean, no need to be condescending- though that seems to be the norm with you.

What can I say? ...repetition of dearth in logic, brings out the worst. :razz:


Blerg wrote:
By having year-round flights to Athens, Emirates is building a much stronger brand by offering far more stability and convenience to its customers. By being continously present on the market it is more likely that when summer comes passengers will be more inclined to book a flight with them. So DL might be winning in short-term but EK in long-term.

Except that you have no idea what EK's financials on that route are/aren't; it might succeed long-term, or they might be losing their shirt and pull it in the near future.

No one other than the airline currently has the data to tell-- which is why drawing such conclusions at this given point is completely fallacious.



Blerg wrote:
After all, Emirates is a professionally run airline

Remind us which major TATL airline isn't "professionally run?"



Blerg wrote:
and they have been known to stick to a market and to develop it.

Always!

Signed,
Nagoya, Erbil, Doha, Alexandria, Tripoli, Kiev, etc etc
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4243
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:32 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I get what you mean, no need to be condescending- though that seems to be the norm with you.

What can I say? ...repetition of dearth in logic, brings out the worst. :razz:


From what I've seen'The worst' only seems to come out of you. You are always more than welcome to skip and ignore comments which require endless repetition of your personal paradigms.


Blerg wrote:
By having year-round flights to Athens, Emirates is building a much stronger brand by offering far more stability and convenience to its customers. By being continously present on the market it is more likely that when summer comes passengers will be more inclined to book a flight with them. So DL might be winning in short-term but EK in long-term.
Except that you have no idea what EK's financials on that route are/aren't; it might succeed long-term, or they might be losing their shirt and pull it in the near future.


No one other than the airline currently has the data to tell-- which is why drawing such conclusions at this given point is completely fallacious.[/quote]

Let me remind you that you don't have the information either yet that is not preventing you from developing dogmatic views on the topic.

Blerg wrote:
After all, Emirates is a professionally run airline
Remind us which major TATL airline isn't "professionally run?"


Alitalia? Air Serbia? Possibly Norwegian.

Blerg wrote:
and they have been known to stick to a market and to develop it.
Always!

Signed,
Nagoya, Erbil, Doha, Alexandria, Tripoli, Kiev, etc etc


Doha? Tripoli? ? Are you seriously listing those? Look at EK's network and then look at the short list you posted. Not to mention that they have been successfully serving some markets where others have struggled or abandoned them.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5809
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:35 am

Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Signed,
Nagoya, Erbil, Doha, Alexandria, Tripoli, Kiev, etc etc


Doha? Tripoli? ? Are you seriously listing those? Look at EK's network and then look at the short list you posted. Not to mention that they have been successfully serving some markets where others have struggled or abandoned them.


And Alexandria, Erbil and Kiev continue to be served by its sister company FlyDubai.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13334
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:54 am

Blerg wrote:
endless repetition of your personal paradigms.

...you mean, facts?


Blerg wrote:
Let me remind you that you don't have the information either yet that is not preventing you from developing dogmatic views on the topic.

See above.

Remember, I'm not the one asserting anything here other than the FACT (there's that word again) that airlines don't deploy assets where an opportunity cost (be it per-route or per-contract) dictates that that asset would earn more money elsewhere.

That's not something I made up: that's one of the most fundamental principles of fleet utilization.

You, on the other hand, have asserted:
(1) US airlines are somehow "ignorant" of a market that they have decades of operation data upon
(2) US airlines are losing a "market opportunity" (while never stating compared to what) by limiting specific destinations (ORD, BOS, ATL) and limited time frames.
(3) US airlines would be successful if only they attempted what you envision to be that opportunity.

You've given no empirical evidence to support that assertion, other than saying "look at that airline over there" while ignoring both (1) vast differences in everything from relative operational costs to market philosophy, as well as (2) the fact that all of these entities who pay entire route-planning departments good money to analyze such scenarios with data you do not and cannot possess.


Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
After all, Emirates is a professionally run airline

Remind us which major TATL airline isn't "professionally run?"

Alitalia? Air Serbia? Possibly Norwegian.

So in other words, you confuse "professional" with "effective?"



Blerg wrote:
Look at EK's network and then look at the short list you posted. Not to mention that they have been successfully serving some markets where others have struggled or abandoned them.

None of which changes the fact, that EK, like any other airline, tries and fails in markets; and has no special strategy for "developing" what doesn't work.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4243
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: SKG Proposed new routes

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:21 am

Blerg wrote:
Let me remind you that you don't have the information either yet that is not preventing you from developing dogmatic views on the topic.

See above.

Remember, I'm not the one asserting anything here other than the FACT (there's that word again) that airlines don't deploy assets where an opportunity cost (be it per-route or per-contract) dictates that that asset would earn more money elsewhere.

That's not something I made up: that's one of the most fundamental principles of fleet utilization.

You, on the other hand, have asserted:
(1) US airlines are somehow "ignorant" of a market that they have decades of operation data upon
(2) US airlines are losing a "market opportunity" (while never stating compared to what) by limiting specific destinations (ORD, BOS, ATL) and limited time frames.
(3) US airlines would be successful if only they attempted what you envision to be that opportunity.

You've given no empirical evidence to support that assertion, other than saying "look at that airline over there" while ignoring both (1) vast differences in everything from relative operational costs to market philosophy, as well as (2) the fact that all of these entities who pay entire route-planning departments good money to analyze such scenarios with data you do not and cannot possess.[/quote]

I never said they were ignorant, I said passive. Please pay more attention to what I wrote. What do you mean I haven't provided you with any empirical data? I provided you with Emirates' passenger numbers for their first full month of operations. Saying that I have provided you with no empirical data is wrong.
You are accusing me of basing my arguments purely on theory yet it seems to me you are doing the same. Until you come up with some concrete numbers (empirical data of your own) your approach to understanding and evaluating the business model of US airlines in Greece will be exactly the same as mine- in other words it's a theoretical approach. You are saying how they are using this capacity elsewhere, do you mind providing me with empirical data to back this argument? Can you tell me where this Greek capacity is directed to and how they are making more money there.

Also, can you please explain to me how EK's year-round presence on this market won't be an advantage compared to DL's or UA's seasonal service.


Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Remind us which major TATL airline isn't "professionally run?"
Alitalia? Air Serbia? Possibly Norwegian.
So in other words, you confuse "professional" with "effective?"


I am not confusing anything. They are neither professionally run nor are they effective. You can't have an effective system unless it's professionally run.



Blerg wrote:
Look at EK's network and then look at the short list you posted. Not to mention that they have been successfully serving some markets where others have struggled or abandoned them.

None of which changes the fact, that EK, like any other airline, tries and fails in markets; and has no special strategy for "developing" what doesn't work.


I never said they are insisting on developing something that obviously can't work- that's you twisting my words. All I said is that they are generally committed to the markets they serve and that they are doing their best to make sure they work out in the end. That's why they invest so much in marketing. They saw an opening in Greece and they are making the most of it since US airlines won't.

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