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george77300
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:50 am

AIRT0M wrote:
george77300 wrote:
conaly wrote:

Not that difficult, when BA places a 2-4-2 business class instead of the 2-2-2 at LH.


This is not entirely fair. BA is a 2-3-2 on some aircraft and LH is also 2-3-2 on some. Just because they have 2-2-2 on the narrower A330/340 doesn't make them better. Also on a like for like comparison on the B744, LH has more business seats both on the upper deck and between doors 1 and 2 than BA does with their business seats.


Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?


The B747-400.
 
AIRT0M
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:57 pm

george77300 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:
george77300 wrote:

This is not entirely fair. BA is a 2-3-2 on some aircraft and LH is also 2-3-2 on some. Just because they have 2-2-2 on the narrower A330/340 doesn't make them better. Also on a like for like comparison on the B744, LH has more business seats both on the upper deck and between doors 1 and 2 than BA does with their business seats.


Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?


The B747-400.


How odd. The 747-8 (and the 380) are 2-2-2. Does the 747-400 have other seats? I've used LH in C many times, but for some reason I never realized there are some planes with the 2-3-2 layout.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:07 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
My favourite was 64K on BA 744. Upstairs, direct access, a lot of space, I even once refused First upgrade to keep it. They don't have anything similar on new planes. Good memories.

62A and 62K are arguably the best business class seats in the air today for their privacy and ease of access. Flew on those 2 last year BOS-LHR, one leg on each.
Having said that, the BA J seat is never going to win any comfort awards. It's narrow and somewhat uncomfortable compared to most modern J seats. There's a reason why they can squeeze that many J seats on their planes. And direct aisle access is not really a thing for me, personally. With that much leg room i can easily skip over someone sleeping on their fully reclined seat so I can see why some people may prefer a more traditional product like LH's.
 
BA0197
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:31 pm

LH658 wrote:
Out of IAH, that A380 almost leaves full all the time in business and even in first. There been time that Business was oversold vs economy.


This isn’t unusual on most of the European carriers out of IAH, and specifically BA. On their LHR flights at least once a month and during non-peak times it is normally for F/J (and to a large extend W) to be sold out a few days in advance and for Y to be practically empty.

I don’t think any airline configures it’s aircraft in a more premium heavy way than BA. You can tell this by just looking at what door the Y section starts.

In the case of IAH, the 777s they send over are equipped with premium cabins all the way back to door 3, and World Traveller only takes up the space between door 3 and 4.

The most extreme example of BA’s low density aircraft is the Super-High-J 744s which only see World Traveller start at door 4 and end at door 5 on the lower deck.
 
george77300
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:10 pm

AIRT0M wrote:
george77300 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:

Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?


The B747-400.


How odd. The 747-8 (and the 380) are 2-2-2. Does the 747-400 have other seats? I've used LH in C many times, but for some reason I never realized there are some planes with the 2-3-2 layout.


It is the same seat just a bit more dense and probably narrower aisles. The middle seats look really bad. Here is a picture:

Image
 
BA0197
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:42 pm

Just done a rough calculation on the amount of premium seats each airline offers, albeit with some caveats:

- Based purely on aircraft with longhaul seat configurations (i.e. for BA that includes First, Club World, and both World Traveller Cabins etc)
- I've counted F/J/W as Premium cabins (can redo calculations if some people want to only include F and J))
- I've a much better understanding of the intricacies of the BA fleet than LH, therefore for BA I've included all the sub-varients and for LH I've taken their numbers from their website. (This should introduce a small margin of error, I admit)
- This is purely by installed seat numbers, rather than seats sold per day (which would take much longer to calculate, and would nearly be impossible based on variations in scheduling, average route distances, load factors etc).

Results:
- BA beats LH by a mile in both gross premium seat numbers and by the percentage of premium seats within their aircraft.
- Within its longhaul fleet, 36.6% of BA's seats are Premium, while LH allocates 27.3% of its longhaul seats to premium cabins
- BA has a gross total of 13,977 longhaul premium seats installed on its active aircraft, where LH has 9,076.

The results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1sotkp8ir1chsa/BAvsLHPremium.xlsx?dl=0

Let me know if you see any gross inaccuracies (or if you can help me with more specific LH calculations, but on a rough first glance, I think Mr. Spohr is talking off the top of his head. There may be another airline that does more premium seats than BA (I just can't think of any).
 
d8s
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:22 pm

d8s wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
That said, someone with nothing better to do should do a comparison between the BA and LH fleets, defining "premium" as F+J, but also keeping W in mind should a relative tie-breaker be needed.

why don't you jump on this and report back to all of us?


LAX772LR wrote:
answer: because I don't actually care enough to do it.... sorta like you clearly not caring enough to learn how to effectively use the quote function. ;)


Exactly! Not really something I worry about...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:55 pm

BA0197 wrote:
Just done a rough calculation on the amount of premium seats each airline offers, albeit with some caveats:

- Based purely on aircraft with longhaul seat configurations (i.e. for BA that includes First, Club World, and both World Traveller Cabins etc)
- I've counted F/J/W as Premium cabins (can redo calculations if some people want to only include F and J))
- I've a much better understanding of the intricacies of the BA fleet than LH, therefore for BA I've included all the sub-varients and for LH I've taken their numbers from their website. (This should introduce a small margin of error, I admit)
- This is purely by installed seat numbers, rather than seats sold per day (which would take much longer to calculate, and would nearly be impossible based on variations in scheduling, average route distances, load factors etc).

Results:
- BA beats LH by a mile in both gross premium seat numbers and by the percentage of premium seats within their aircraft.
- Within its longhaul fleet, 36.6% of BA's seats are Premium, while LH allocates 27.3% of its longhaul seats to premium cabins
- BA has a gross total of 13,977 longhaul premium seats installed on its active aircraft, where LH has 9,076.

The results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1sotkp8ir1chsa/BAvsLHPremium.xlsx?dl=0

Let me know if you see any gross inaccuracies (or if you can help me with more specific LH calculations, but on a rough first glance, I think Mr. Spohr is talking off the top of his head. There may be another airline that does more premium seats than BA (I just can't think of any).

Thank you for taking the time to calculate the seats.

Huh... 36% of longhaul are premium... That is impressive. LH is a premium carrier, but about half more premium seats is a huge difference.

Thank you again.

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:49 pm

george77300 wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
As much as I agree with you: Please name one European airline with a better J that has at least 70% of DLHs route network

BA? At least you have privacy at some of the seats. And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...


Agreed. The BA window seats are very private. You have space for your feet and a reasonable number of the bulkhead window seats actually have direct aisle access. LH has no privacy, very small footrests etc..

I'd take a BA business over LH business anytime. To answer your first point they are even more premium heavy than LH. For example LH most premium 744 has 272 economy seats and BAs has 145 economy only.

Recently I have had a lot of issues with BA service. It feels like they are adopting the same strategy as McDonald's when it comes to hiring cabin crew. Additionally, the aisle seats offer little to no privacy, and if you are in a 777, 747, or on the lower deck of an A380, the center seats have no privacy from each other at all. I will agree that the cabin is far less cramped than it looks in photos though.
 
george77300
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:05 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
george77300 wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
BA? At least you have privacy at some of the seats. And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...


Agreed. The BA window seats are very private. You have space for your feet and a reasonable number of the bulkhead window seats actually have direct aisle access. LH has no privacy, very small footrests etc..

I'd take a BA business over LH business anytime. To answer your first point they are even more premium heavy than LH. For example LH most premium 744 has 272 economy seats and BAs has 145 economy only.

Recently I have had a lot of issues with BA service. It feels like they are adopting the same strategy as McDonald's when it comes to hiring cabin crew. Additionally, the aisle seats offer little to no privacy, and if you are in a 777, 747, or on the lower deck of an A380, the center seats have no privacy from each other at all. I will agree that the cabin is far less cramped than it looks in photos though.


I’ll agree those middle seats are really bad for solo travellers but usually a couple will take those or a family of 4 Will takes the four in the middle and stick the two kids in between the parents. So they aren’t undesirable for all meaning it’s easier to get what seat you want as a solo traveller.
 
sabby
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:06 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...

I will never understand, how Lufthansa of all airlines thought that that design was ok ! If they wanted 2-2-2, they could have had straight TAM/TK/EK like seats or B/E minipods for higher density.
Last edited by sabby on Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
vfw614
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:14 pm

BA0197 wrote:
Results:
- BA beats LH by a mile in both gross premium seat numbers and by the percentage of premium seats within their aircraft.
- Within its longhaul fleet, 36.6% of BA's seats are Premium, while LH allocates 27.3% of its longhaul seats to premium cabins
- BA has a gross total of 13,977 longhaul premium seats installed on its active aircraft, where LH has 9,076.

Let me know if you see any gross inaccuracies (or if you can help me with more specific LH calculations, but on a rough first glance, I think Mr. Spohr is talking off the top of his head. There may be another airline that does more premium seats than BA (I just can't think of any).


Thanks for the effort, but it is not really what the thread should be about.

Lufthansa claims to SELL more premium seats than anyone else, not that they have more premium seats than anyone else. The competition may have more premium seats on offer, but these could be unsold and/or filled with upgrades, which does not amount to selling that premium seat, but giving it away for free or for a nominal fee.
 
gregpodpl
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:17 pm

sabby wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...

I will never understand, how Lufthansa of all airlines though that design was ok ! If they wanted 2-2-2, they could have had straight TAM/TK/EK like seats or B/E minipods for higher density.

I agree. They did improve it on newer planes (like a350) - only middle seats got this problem - but it's still bad.
Imagine you are flying next to your boss in those seats...

Looks like new design - which they plan for 2020 - will solve all those issues. But it will take much longer to roll it over to all the planes - if they even do that at all.
Until then I'm going to avoid LH if possible.
 
BA0197
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:23 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Thanks for the effort, but it is not really what the thread should be about.

Lufthansa claims to SELL more premium seats than anyone else, not that they have more premium seats than anyone else. The competition may have more premium seats on offer, but these could be unsold and/or filled with upgrades, which does not amount to selling that premium seat, but giving it away for free or for a nominal fee.


Absolutely agreed, and hence the reason it was within the caveats I outlined. However, even so, if we take BA and LH load factors for 2017 (and assuming they are distributed in the same way, which again is rather more difficult to calculate (but not too unreasonable a suggestion, both being legacy hub carriers based in Europe)), BA beat LH, which if anything would give even more credibility to BA winning this "battle"

BA 2017 LF: 81.8%
LH 2017 LF: 80.2%

Both from each company's Annual Reports.
 
xxcr
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:55 pm

conaly wrote:
That's an quite interesting statement, especially when you remember, that LH doesn't even offer First class on most aircraft anymore. Sometimes they even block the whole first class, when they switch planes from a non-F-plane to one which has it. Happened to me a few months ago: DEL-MUC was supposed to be an A350 without F-class, one day before the flight it was switched to A340-600, which does have a first. In the end, the first class was empty. Sometimes, they do allow C-class-pax there, but only with C-service. Besides that, currently only the 747-8, the A340-600 and the A380 offer a first class at all.


It's weird to see the LH fleet that offer first. 748, A380 ,A346, A333, but not on the 744, A343, A350. Im surprised they were able to get away with getting a 5 star Skytax rating even with their poor J seats.
 
xxcr
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:56 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
This statement may be true but LH has the worst hard product within the LH Group ! I love flying on OS and LX , but would prefer SK and LO even UA over the hard and soft product of LH anytime. Being Star Gold and regularly flying transatlantic in C , I try to avoid LH C class , whenever I can.


I couldn't agree more! UA offers a better J seat than LH. IMO, UA's B/E diamond seat is better than LH current J seat.
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:25 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
sabby wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...

I will never understand, how Lufthansa of all airlines though that design was ok ! If they wanted 2-2-2, they could have had straight TAM/TK/EK like seats or B/E minipods for higher density.

I agree. They did improve it on newer planes (like a350) - only middle seats got this problem - but it's still bad.
Imagine you are flying next to your boss in those seats...

Looks like new design - which they plan for 2020 - will solve all those issues. But it will take much longer to roll it over to all the planes - if they even do that at all.
Until then I'm going to avoid LH if possible.

The 744 doesn't have this issue either. Only two out of the three middle seats in the two back rows face each other in the less dense configuration.
 
george77300
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:32 pm

xxcr wrote:
conaly wrote:
That's an quite interesting statement, especially when you remember, that LH doesn't even offer First class on most aircraft anymore. Sometimes they even block the whole first class, when they switch planes from a non-F-plane to one which has it. Happened to me a few months ago: DEL-MUC was supposed to be an A350 without F-class, one day before the flight it was switched to A340-600, which does have a first. In the end, the first class was empty. Sometimes, they do allow C-class-pax there, but only with C-service. Besides that, currently only the 747-8, the A340-600 and the A380 offer a first class at all.


It's weird to see the LH fleet that offer first. 748, A380 ,A346, A333, but not on the 744, A343, A350. Im surprised they were able to get away with getting a 5 star Skytax rating even with their poor J seats.


Skytrax is not a reliable source. LH pay and they get their stars. It is a privately run business and that is what happens. There are many many airlines that doesn't have 5 star with skytrax that would get it first if it wasn't money driven is some cases and that are far superior to LH.

Just to clarify not all airlines will pay or have to pay but some most certainly do.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:58 am

sabby wrote:
I will never understand, how Lufthansa of all airlines thought that that design was ok ! If they wanted 2-2-2, they could have had straight TAM/TK/EK like seats or B/E minipods for higher density.


What I heard:

A) LH wanted to have (or test) a product, where all J seats are the same (so now "thrones" or single/double seats as at their sub-companies OS or LX).

B) LH stated some years ago, that they are not happy that the business class hard product is coming closer and closer to first class. So it wouldn't surprise me that they chose by intention not a more superior J product in the past ;-)


My thoughts:

1) LH first class will be always far ahead of business class, due to the very thoughtful cabin fitting (seats, special walls and carpets,...) and the very superior service especially on ground. Just catering in first class is crap at LH. The OS business class food is much better than LH first catering :-)

2) The difference between F and J on BA is not very large. First class at BA does by far not compete with LH (especially on ground), but they have very competitive fares in F. My next flight from Europe to the West Coast is cheaper in BA F than the LH business base fare, so guess what I do!

3) Based on my experience, the premium cabins at both airlines and airline groups are always quite full. So I guess, that BA wins :-)

4) One advantage of LH is, that in economic strong Germany and Switzerland, they are still able to bond many business travellers to them via their frequent flyer program, even though they are often more expensive and don't have the best J product. As long as they keep Miles&More attractive, they will have good load factors and yields from their home market. So in future, if they make further "enhancements" in their frequent flyer program, the Trans-Atlantic market might even more shift to BA and AF and LH premium cabin sales might shrink or (to say it in a positive way) will get more exclusive ;-)
DC-6, DC9, Do228, Saab340, Twin-Otter, C212, Fokker50, AN24, MD90, MD83, EMB120, A380, A300, A343, A346, B721, B742, B744, B748...
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:03 am

george77300 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:
george77300 wrote:

This is not entirely fair. BA is a 2-3-2 on some aircraft and LH is also 2-3-2 on some. Just because they have 2-2-2 on the narrower A330/340 doesn't make them better. Also on a like for like comparison on the B744, LH has more business seats both on the upper deck and between doors 1 and 2 than BA does with their business seats.


Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?


The B747-400.

Yeah but only in four rows on some aircraft. Others are only 2-3-2 that in two rows. Meanwhile at BA the entire 777, A380 lower deck, and 747 fleet are 2-4-2 with the exception of the upper deck, and the 787/A380 upper deck fleet are 2-3-2. LH Business is by far less dense.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:48 am

mjoelnir wrote:
It is completely nonsense to declare their fate has nothing to do with each other. The point is, even at the low sales numbers of the A380, the 787-8i could not compete.

Get a grip.

First of all, I more than anyone enjoy the demise of the 748i, as I hate the obsolete. The pax 747 probably should've been put to pasture long ago. So if you're under the impression that this springs from some manner of fanboyism, then you're mistaken.

That said, to claim that the 748i was anything more than a piddling annoyance to A380 sales, is to give the 748i far too much credit. For one thing, every current A380 operator except NH had already placed their orders before the 748i was in service. All but one of the 748i's operators already had A380 commitments when they ordered it.

And quite frankly, if Boeing were to discontinue the 748i tomorrow, it wouldn't do a thing for or against the A380. So by all means, please explain how the fate of the 748i has anything remotely to do with the fate of the A380-- because from any logical standpoint, the two have had almost nil to do with each other.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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CARST
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:38 am

Whereever Spohrs numbers come from, in the end, we can safely say that both BA and LH have the shittiest business class of all major airlines out there. Both don't have direct aisle access and still put three or four seats in a block. Privacy is shit on both. On LH you have that foreign person beside you all the time without a real divider and on BA when the divider goes down you look right into the face of a person you don't know within your comfort zone of 1 meter / 3 feet.

Both airlines operate out of very rich and large O&D markets and have built a huge, worldwide network. They still manage to fill their shitty as hell business classes, despite offering so mediocre, cramped products. Great for their business, bad for the customers. Hell, even the US carriers offer way better products these days. Hard and soft product that is. And we haven't even spoken about the Asian or Sandpit airlines then...

As LH is the most greedy of all airlines, giving out nearly no upgrades and seat-availability for upgrades with miles is low AND most of my fellow countrymen are still stupid enough to give them their business, it is possible that they have the most premium seats sold. But with all statistics, the question is, how reliable is the information and under which parameters was this statement made. I guess, because there are larger airlines out there, Spohr could be talking about the whole LH Group and perhaps refers to percentage of premium seats sold to all seats available on the airline. But does Spohr really know the numbers of all his competitors? Lot's of questions, no answers. And we won't answer this here, too, because I'd say no one knows exactly...
 
slinky09
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:51 am

I tend to believe that BA and LH sell most of their seats to corporates who get good discounts for volume business - it's not necessarily the individual who chooses them but their corporate travel team who make the choice for them. I don't know anyone who would prefer to fly BA over competition from LHR in J apart from this corporate booking issue and the miles. So both BA and LH have large customer bases effectively locked in and they can do whatever they want in the cabins without fear.
 
devron
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:35 am

Image
Picture from the points guy

I got to fly this about 9 months ago, LH Business class seems like a dream and I booked it for my next trip (mainly because it my first 747-800) although I need to transfer in ORD with united (domestic first) and there is also no lounge access.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:52 am

LAX772LR wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
It is completely nonsense to declare their fate has nothing to do with each other. The point is, even at the low sales numbers of the A380, the 787-8i could not compete.

Get a grip.

First of all, I more than anyone enjoy the demise of the 748i, as I hate the obsolete. The pax 747 probably should've been put to pasture long ago. So if you're under the impression that this springs from some manner of fanboyism, then you're mistaken.

That said, to claim that the 748i was anything more than a piddling annoyance to A380 sales, is to give the 748i far too much credit. For one thing, every current A380 operator except NH had already placed their orders before the 748i was in service. All but one of the 748i's operators already had A380 commitments when they ordered it.

And quite frankly, if Boeing were to discontinue the 748i tomorrow, it wouldn't do a thing for or against the A380. So by all means, please explain how the fate of the 748i has anything remotely to do with the fate of the A380-- because from any logical standpoint, the two have had almost nil to do with each other.


Especially when you are in a tight corner, every frame counts. I would have mattered for the A380 to have got the sales the 747-8i took. When you sell 300 frames, 50 more do matter more, than when you sell a 1000 frames.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:56 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I would have mattered for the A380 to have got the sales the 747-8i took.

That's assuming that the A380 would've gotten all (or even most) of those orders in the 748i's absence... which isn't a given.

CA could've just as easily gone 77W, as could KE.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
trijetsonly
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Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:12 am

BA0197 wrote:
Just done a rough calculation on the amount of premium seats each airline offers, albeit with some caveats:

- Based purely on aircraft with longhaul seat configurations (i.e. for BA that includes First, Club World, and both World Traveller Cabins etc)
- I've counted F/J/W as Premium cabins (can redo calculations if some people want to only include F and J))
- I've a much better understanding of the intricacies of the BA fleet than LH, therefore for BA I've included all the sub-varients and for LH I've taken their numbers from their website. (This should introduce a small margin of error, I admit)
- This is purely by installed seat numbers, rather than seats sold per day (which would take much longer to calculate, and would nearly be impossible based on variations in scheduling, average route distances, load factors etc).

Results:
- BA beats LH by a mile in both gross premium seat numbers and by the percentage of premium seats within their aircraft.
- Within its longhaul fleet, 36.6% of BA's seats are Premium, while LH allocates 27.3% of its longhaul seats to premium cabins
- BA has a gross total of 13,977 longhaul premium seats installed on its active aircraft, where LH has 9,076.

The results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1sotkp8ir1chsa/BAvsLHPremium.xlsx?dl=0

Let me know if you see any gross inaccuracies (or if you can help me with more specific LH calculations, but on a rough first glance, I think Mr. Spohr is talking off the top of his head. There may be another airline that does more premium seats than BA (I just can't think of any).


Nice summary, well done!
But I wouldn't be surprised if the original statement by Spohr includes the whole LH Group, with Swiss, Austrian, Brussels and Eurowings as well.
That's what I've got from other recent interviews as he is the Group CEO, not the LH airline CEO.
Happy Landings
 
jules48
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:20 am

And they are heavily discounted through the right sources thats the only way they can fill them.
 
george77300
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:29 am

speedbird52 wrote:
george77300 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:

Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?


The B747-400.

Yeah but only in four rows on some aircraft. Others are only 2-3-2 that in two rows. Meanwhile at BA the entire 777, A380 lower deck, and 747 fleet are 2-4-2 with the exception of the upper deck, and the 787/A380 upper deck fleet are 2-3-2. LH Business is by far less dense.


You also have to understand that how many in a row does not determine density or even comfort. Although BA have as you say 1 or 2 extra seats per row, the seat width on both LH and BA are 20.0 inches. (Everyone says Emirates have good business on A380 but that only has 18.5 inches of width, their economy is 18 inches). Just because they are 1-2-1 configuration does not make it wider at all. Also density wise LH has a pitch of just 64 inches compared with BA at 72 inches. It really isn't just about the apparent how many in a row.
 
gregpodpl
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:49 am

Re: LH CEO Makes a Bold Claim but is it Actually True?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 am

eisenbach wrote:
The difference between F and J on BA is not very large. First class at BA does by far not compete with LH (especially on ground), but they have very competitive fares in F.

You are right. The seat they use in F is very similar/the same one AA uses in J on 77W. F on BA should be called J+.
 
duboka
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:26 am

BA0197 wrote:
Just done a rough calculation on the amount of premium seats each airline offers, albeit with some caveats:

- Based purely on aircraft with longhaul seat configurations (i.e. for BA that includes First, Club World, and both World Traveller Cabins etc)
- I've counted F/J/W as Premium cabins (can redo calculations if some people want to only include F and J))
- I've a much better understanding of the intricacies of the BA fleet than LH, therefore for BA I've included all the sub-varients and for LH I've taken their numbers from their website. (This should introduce a small margin of error, I admit)
- This is purely by installed seat numbers, rather than seats sold per day (which would take much longer to calculate, and would nearly be impossible based on variations in scheduling, average route distances, load factors etc).

Results:
- BA beats LH by a mile in both gross premium seat numbers and by the percentage of premium seats within their aircraft.
- Within its longhaul fleet, 36.6% of BA's seats are Premium, while LH allocates 27.3% of its longhaul seats to premium cabins
- BA has a gross total of 13,977 longhaul premium seats installed on its active aircraft, where LH has 9,076.

The results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1sotkp8ir1chsa/BAvsLHPremium.xlsx?dl=0

Let me know if you see any gross inaccuracies (or if you can help me with more specific LH calculations, but on a rough first glance, I think Mr. Spohr is talking off the top of his head. There may be another airline that does more premium seats than BA (I just can't think of any).


Thanks for your efforts! I think you are having a wrong seat configuration for the A330: they removed the first class last year from this aircraft...

But is for both airlines a big part of the fleet missing: the short haul fleet for the European network. These are European style Buissnes Class seats, but these have to be considered as "premium seats", too. So you can add for every A319/320/321, etc. a couple of seats (12-30/40 seats, if I'm not mistaken) , too. And I think he is talking here as LH Group CEO and not just as LH CEO...
 
devron
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:56 am

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:50 am

duboka wrote:
But is for both airlines a big part of the fleet missing: the short haul fleet for the European network. These are European style Buissnes Class seats, but these have to be considered as "premium seats", too. So you can add for every A319/320/321, etc. a couple of seats (12-30/40 seats, if I'm not mistaken) , too. And I think he is talking here as LH Group CEO and not just as LH CEO...


Good point! Some my my bi-weekly BRU-FRA flights are extremely full of "Business class" although without an international connection on a long haul aircraft I can't image why anyone wants to pay for this.
 
225623
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:00 am

devron wrote:
Some my my bi-weekly BRU-FRA flights are extremely full of "Business class" although without an international connection on a long haul aircraft I can't image why anyone wants to pay for this.


I don't think EU officials, bankers and lobbyists bother much. They don't pay from their own pocket.
 
AirplaneWizard
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:41 am

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:22 am

Lufthansa has the worst economy class seats installed on their A330s. Extremely narrow, thin, and uncomfortable. These A330s are flying medium to long haul routes such as Dubai and to North America. I go out of my way and take Swiss and Austrian whenever possible. Swiss especially, and to a certain extent, Austrian, are ahead of Lufthansa when it comes to economy class. One thing that Lufthansa, Swiss and all do excel at is providing lots of good quality alcoholic beverages even in economy class compared to other airlines. I counted 9-10 drinks while flying Frankfurt - Atlanta. You will be lucky to have 4 (cheap ones) on any US carrier on similar routes, and then they will ID you and everything....
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:46 pm

duboka wrote:
Thanks for your efforts! I think you are having a wrong seat configuration for the A330: they removed the first class last year from this aircraft...

But is for both airlines a big part of the fleet missing: the short haul fleet for the European network. These are European style Buissnes Class seats, but these have to be considered as "premium seats", too. So you can add for every A319/320/321, etc. a couple of seats (12-30/40 seats, if I'm not mistaken) , too. And I think he is talking here as LH Group CEO and not just as LH CEO...


Ah, I've taken that straight from the LH website; looks like they need to update it! Do you have updated configurations for the A330s?

In the best of world's I would've included LH European Business and BA Club Europe, but becasue these are convertible aircraft, it would be nearly impossible to determine or even come up with a good guess of seats that are sold on these short-haul services. Indeed, if you fly BA on any of their core intra-European or domestic routes, you'll often find CE to it's max possible configuration (LON-NCE/EDI/FRA/ZRH/GLA/AMS/GVA etc.). If you have a way in which you think we can accurately reflect this do let me know. I decided to do Longhaul only because his quote was in reference to LH needing the 747-8 (rather than the 777) because LH needed more room for its "premium heavy" configurations. What we've found out is that BA have a far larger % of premium seats on its longhaul aircraft than LH (which presumably means that BA aircraft need more "room" than LH aircraft for its configurations.

As to the LH group, that would not be a fair comparison as you'd be comparing multiple airlines against one. IAG vs LH Group on the other hand would be fair. However, he did say that Lufthansa sells the most premium seats. I think if we go on the quote he wasn't referencing LH Group, else he would have said.
 
LH779
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:31 am

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:16 pm

On https://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/ you have all the different seating configs. They don't state the exact configurations for every aircraft if there are different configs though.

42 / 28 / 185 is the config for the A330s

edit: For the spreadsheet:
- there are 19 A330s in LHs fleet
- I checked several A340-600 flights and at least the A346s in FRA seem to be in the 8 / 56 / 28 / 189 config, that would be 9 aircraft
- 5 of the A340-300 are in a very high density configuration (18 / 19 / 261) and operated by LH Cityline
Last edited by LH779 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
duboka
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:21 pm

BA0197 wrote:
duboka wrote:
Thanks for your efforts! I think you are having a wrong seat configuration for the A330: they removed the first class last year from this aircraft...

But is for both airlines a big part of the fleet missing: the short haul fleet for the European network. These are European style Buissnes Class seats, but these have to be considered as "premium seats", too. So you can add for every A319/320/321, etc. a couple of seats (12-30/40 seats, if I'm not mistaken) , too. And I think he is talking here as LH Group CEO and not just as LH CEO...


Ah, I've taken that straight from the LH website; looks like they need to update it! Do you have updated configurations for the A330s?

In the best of world's I would've included LH European Business and BA Club Europe, but becasue these are convertible aircraft, it would be nearly impossible to determine or even come up with a good guess of seats that are sold on these short-haul services. Indeed, if you fly BA on any of their core intra-European or domestic routes, you'll often find CE to it's max possible configuration (LON-NCE/EDI/FRA/ZRH/GLA/AMS/GVA etc.). If you have a way in which you think we can accurately reflect this do let me know. I decided to do Longhaul only because his quote was in reference to LH needing the 747-8 (rather than the 777) because LH needed more room for its "premium heavy" configurations. What we've found out is that BA have a far larger % of premium seats on its longhaul aircraft than LH (which presumably means that BA aircraft need more "room" than LH aircraft for its configurations.

As to the LH group, that would not be a fair comparison as you'd be comparing multiple airlines against one. IAG vs LH Group on the other hand would be fair. However, he did say that Lufthansa sells the most premium seats. I think if we go on the quote he wasn't referencing LH Group, else he would have said.


Yes, they have definitely to update it...
And here you can find as the third variation the configuration without the first class. They are currently reconfiguring all of their A330 with this configuration, if they are not finished with it yet...
https://magazin.lufthansa.com/xx/en/fle ... -a330-300/

Another good page is
https://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/
This page is very reliable, too. But sadly it's just in German...

I know from personal experience, that LH has at least 3 rows of Buissness Class seats on every flight. But I could be that I'm wrong in this aspect... So it could be calculated a at least count per short haul aircraft, so 12 Buissnes Class seats in each A320 class aircraft. Or try just different average row counts, which could be very nice to be shown in a graph... Another idea could be, that we just guess, which percentage of pax are using a connection flight, so multiple the seat count with this factor, and add it to the total number. There I guess that LH has a larger factor than BA, since London is such a huge market itself. But this system would totally neglect, the seat offered just from/to London, Frankfurt and Munich, where I think that the C pax load would be about the same...
And there is still the difference between having seats in the fleet, and how many seats are offered in total. By the seats in total, I very shure that Emirates is far ahead, but their aircrafts are doing just 2,3 flights a day...

Of course: here you have to compare IAG with the LHG and not BA vs. LHG. If you just look at BA it's just fair to compare it with LH.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:04 pm

george77300 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
george77300 wrote:

The B747-400.

Yeah but only in four rows on some aircraft. Others are only 2-3-2 that in two rows. Meanwhile at BA the entire 777, A380 lower deck, and 747 fleet are 2-4-2 with the exception of the upper deck, and the 787/A380 upper deck fleet are 2-3-2. LH Business is by far less dense.


You also have to understand that how many in a row does not determine density or even comfort. Although BA have as you say 1 or 2 extra seats per row, the seat width on both LH and BA are 20.0 inches. (Everyone says Emirates have good business on A380 but that only has 18.5 inches of width, their economy is 18 inches). Just because they are 1-2-1 configuration does not make it wider at all. Also density wise LH has a pitch of just 64 inches compared with BA at 72 inches. It really isn't just about the apparent how many in a row.

The LH bed is slightly longer, which is something I appreciate as a 6'3" guy lol. I also feel like Club World is a little claustrophobic compared to LH, but that also gives it more privacy
 
gregpodpl
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:49 am

Re: LH CEO claims LH sells the most premium seats — is it true?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:11 pm

devron wrote:
Some my my bi-weekly BRU-FRA flights are extremely full of "Business class" although without an international connection on a long haul aircraft I can't image why anyone wants to pay for this.

IMO there are multiple reasons:
- if something goes wrong - like cancellation - you're at the top of the list for re-booking to other flights
- no risk of being a victim of overbooking
- you can often check in/drop luggage later
- more carry-on luggage
- no one is seating next to you
- often - better booze
- flexible economy ticket costs almost the same

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