Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
EXMEMWIDGET
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:25 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:44 pm

[quote="Scorpio"]Wait, so it's actually LEGAL in the US to punish employees for being unable to come to work for a few days due to illness? That's outrageous!

Yes, FedEx did it for years. They finally stopped a little while back. For example, if FedEx gave their frontline employees a dollar an hour raise, you would only get the full dollar raise if you had not called in sick during the past year. If you called in sick just one day, you probably would only get 85 cents of the raise. You could go from being a topped out for years employee to not being topped out due to using one sick day in a year that the company gave a raise. In effect, you were being financially punished for using a company provided benefit.

Another policy that is still in effect at FedEx is the holiday rule. If you call in sick the day before or the day after a company recognized holiday, you will not be paid for that holiday. If you are late even by one minute the day before or the day after the holiday, you will not be paid for the holiday.
Ex DL and NW, current FX.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:01 pm

I am a white collar worker in the US working for a very large company and within the last 5 years they have completely terminated sick days for us. They did add one day of vacation a year (now called PTO - paid time off) to make up for it.

If you are out for more than a week continuously Sick Leave kicks in and you need medical notes (typically to say you are healthy enough to return to work). After a couple of weeks disability insurance would be needed (a voluntary benefit that the employee pays for) if you have hope of getting any money.

They also terminated our pensions, but added 4% to our 401k to make up for it.

My personal philosophy is too show up for work if I can crawl in and warn others I am sick. If the company was interested in not getting other employees sick they would give me more than "1 sick day a year". Luckily as an office worker I would only need to be able to sit in a chair and stay awake to survive a day at work - way easier than most professions mentioned here.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
crj900lr wrote:
If that happens I would believe that anyone who now is on that status will be given a final warning and be expected to improve their attendance. I seriously doubt anyone is gonna be shown the door without a final warning.


This. Even without a union contract, labor judges are very strict on ensuring employers have coached and counseled employees on performance or attendance issues, and if it's not documented, it didn't happen.

Rest assured that anyone facing discharge for poor attendance will have a documentation trail of their discussions a mile long, plus a firm record of a final warning being given and advised that further instances of poor attendance would result in discharge, and terminations are usually run through a series of labor leaders and attorneys before being signed off on.

No such thing as a labor judge in the court system.


Unemployment hearing judges, among others, are commonly referred to as labor judges.


U.S. Labor Judge Nixes McDonald’s Deal to Avoid Joint Employer Tag

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/n ... 495443.htm
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Wings396
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:07 pm

This is nothing new for most of the other work groups at LUS, as it been policy for many years already. As long as you aren't an abuser, it's manageable.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:13 pm

So. All the low seniority employees have to do is keep a clean record and they can call in at the last minute on Thanksgiving and Christmas. And one other holiday of their choice. They will love that.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:17 pm

Unemployment isn’t a court judge and unemployment doesn’t have the authority to reinstate a job if terminated.

Those are Adminstrative Law, not the regular court system.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:18 pm

Where I work we have accrued sick time that rolls over, with vacation/personal/floating holidays as well. The EVP was in the other day and was discussing time-off policies that a new hire had inquired about. His main point to the new hires was to try as hard as possible to not use sick days so that they could start building up time. What they had been seeing was that many people would use the roughly 2.5 days per pay period to go home early on a Friday payday. Then, when they got sick, they had none left. A lot of people were also treating Sick time as Vacation time, then would get sick and be out.

I don’t think the goal (at my company) is to treat sick people poorly, but if you are new and missing work, or if you’ve been around a while and have zero accrued Sick days, then perhaps it’s not going to work out.

If a company can’t reward good attendance with a bigger raise, and if they can’t weed out people who abuse the system, then what’s left? There has to be an incentive to showing up for work punctually and reliably. For the vast majority, it’ll all work out. For a small minority, it may not.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
PPVLC
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 12:07 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:20 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Maybe this will weed out some of the geriatric mommas who abuse the system.



That's not a nice thing to say, I know lots of very old FAs with exceptional attendance and lots of young ones who don't give a damn for their job or their passengers. You should be ashamed of your ageist comment.
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:22 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Wait, so it's actually LEGAL in the US to punish employees for being unable to come to work for a few days due to illness? That's outrageous!

Would the airline seriously rather the employee with, say the flu, still come in and infect half the plane??


You can only call in sick for so many days before discipline could start. If you're truly sick for more than a few days then you can take advantage of many options...many of which were negotiated through your labor group/union. There's.short-term disability, Family Medical Leave, long term disability. If you don't understand how the system works and the resources available then yes, you could get fired, but only through your own ignorance or not asking for help.
 
KD5MDK
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:05 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:09 am

I'm going to make two comments:

1) My very large employer is going away from the points system described, probably because we want to reduce turnover and make sure to keep valuable employees who encounter challenging circumstances. So for everyone claiming that this is nothing because their employer doesn't give them any sick time or fires people the first time they're late, that doesn't say anything too great about anyone wanting to work there.

2) Retroactively applying a policy that is more strict than one you were complying with before is absolutely cruel. If you planned your schedule so that you showed up for work early 99% of the time, and were never late more than 10 minutes regardless of circumstances, but find you're now being recorded for every outlier time you exceeded 5 minutes, that's absolutely unfair.
 
910A
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:51 am

XLA2008 wrote:
Pretty standard rules for most airlines, those are rules I’ve been used to obiding by throughout my entire flying career, don’t see how it’s disastrous haha, just sounds like lazy crew that don’t like the fact they won’t be able to get away with taking advantage! Get over it is what I say.

As per sick days most airline I’ve worked for will allow you to self certify for a few days, however if you have a cold or are sick then having a doctors note to show genuine need for sick time then all airlines I’ve worked for are a little more relaxed. Calling in sick for all airlines I’ve ever worked for is frowned upon and after a certain amount of sick days they usually place you on review and monitor you! Problem is people take advantage and call off sick when their is nothing wrong with them, so honestly I side with the airline. What most people fail to realize is that by a crew member calling sick especially at the last minute can cause chaos, it’s not like an office job, you either delay the flight waiting for a standby or if flying a tight schedule may have to cancel the flight through lack of crew, costing the company a ton of money and delays, all because a crew member wanted to go to a friends BBQ! Office job you can call off and it really affects little apart from your actual work.


I was in HKT a few years back, waiting for my flight to start my trip back to the states. A Nova Air 330 was at the gate, and I was talking with one of the F/A, she mentioned that they would be one F/A short for service but they would have the full team. Then I saw a F/A with a broken ankle wheeled onto the plane in a wheelchair.
 
User avatar
XLA2008
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:55 am

KD5MDK wrote:
I'm going to make two comments:

1) My very large employer is going away from the points system described, probably because we want to reduce turnover and make sure to keep valuable employees who encounter challenging circumstances. So for everyone claiming that this is nothing because their employer doesn't give them any sick time or fires people the first time they're late, that doesn't say anything too great about anyone wanting to work there.

2) Retroactively applying a policy that is more strict than one you were complying with before is absolutely cruel. If you planned your schedule so that you showed up for work early 99% of the time, and were never late more than 10 minutes regardless of circumstances, but find you're now being recorded for every outlier time you exceeded 5 minutes, that's absolutely unfair.


Actually the majority of airlines record lateness, in the airline industry being late is about probably one of the worst thing you could do! There are procedures in place if you are going to be late and that’s to call ahead so they can find a replacement incase you aren’t on time, this costs the airline considerable amounts of money. My airline allows 3 minutes, then you are recorded as late. If you are on time 99.9% of the time the odd few late reports providing you followed the protocol are generally ok. If you can’t mainting on time performance then you deserve to be scrutinized for it, your lateness affects the other crew, and the 100’s of passengers onboard as well as costs the airline money in delays or call outs. You can’t just be late for a flight, it doesn’t work like that.

An airline is only going to change protocol if it has a need, clearly AA is having issues with crew being late or calling off, unfortunately for those good employees the system is abused by others and AA obviously doesnt’t have a good enough system in place to hold those accountable and sees the need to enforce stricter policies, if you don’t like it, plenty of other airlines out there to work for, however you’ll find the same rules apply to almost all of them. You say your employer removed a points system, well clearly for AA not having a points system isn’t working.
Last edited by XLA2008 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
User avatar
XLA2008
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:58 am

910A wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
Pretty standard rules for most airlines, those are rules I’ve been used to obiding by throughout my entire flying career, don’t see how it’s disastrous haha, just sounds like lazy crew that don’t like the fact they won’t be able to get away with taking advantage! Get over it is what I say.

As per sick days most airline I’ve worked for will allow you to self certify for a few days, however if you have a cold or are sick then having a doctors note to show genuine need for sick time then all airlines I’ve worked for are a little more relaxed. Calling in sick for all airlines I’ve ever worked for is frowned upon and after a certain amount of sick days they usually place you on review and monitor you! Problem is people take advantage and call off sick when their is nothing wrong with them, so honestly I side with the airline. What most people fail to realize is that by a crew member calling sick especially at the last minute can cause chaos, it’s not like an office job, you either delay the flight waiting for a standby or if flying a tight schedule may have to cancel the flight through lack of crew, costing the company a ton of money and delays, all because a crew member wanted to go to a friends BBQ! Office job you can call off and it really affects little apart from your actual work.


I was in HKT a few years back, waiting for my flight to start my trip back to the states. A Nova Air 330 was at the gate, and I was talking with one of the F/A, she mentioned that they would be one F/A short for service but they would have the full team. Then I saw a F/A with a broken ankle wheeled onto the plane in a wheelchair.


A lot of airlines operating a long haul flight will have additional crew onboard so that if someone is absent from the flight they still have minimum crew compliment to operate the flight it’s much harder to get a stand by when down route. Short haul generally doesn’t work the same, airlines tend to put minimum crew compliment onboard due to the costs, which then will cause issues if a crew member calls sick or is late, if you have a genuine reason to be late or off sick and you have a good record with the company then you have nothing to worry about, these systems are in place for those that abuse them, if you are a good employee and maintain good performance then the airline isn’t going to scrutinize you.
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
User avatar
Chasensfo
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:29 am

As long as points are waived during the "blackout" period on sick calls when a doctors note is produced, I have no problem with that. Forcing your employees to come to work sick during the busy travel period in a recirculated cabin in asinine, so long as there is proof of the illness/ailment.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:04 am

Ummm kinda confused here...stuff like is suppose be collectively bargained for with AA's flight attendant union what im I missing here?
 
OKCDCA
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:50 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:05 am

What’s funny about this is, amongst organized labor groups, the one, most commonly complained about thing is attendance! And not their employers policies, but their peers inability to come to work. The ones who come to work end up getting penalized for the ones who do not!

The people who come to work and do their jobs will never have to worry about themselves, even when they might fall outside of the policy because they have built and established a record which proves otherwise.

When management cracks down on attendance, you will hear complaints in the crew rooms as nobody will want to appear to be on “managements side.” But at the end of the day, the 95% of people who come to work when they’re supposed to and do their jobs, will be happy to see the other 5% finally get what’s due to them.

And here is another funny fact... When management initiates an attendance crack down, more time off is generated for employees because more people are marked up and available to come to work and cover shifts. Extra board employees are more available because less line employees are laying off, and less extra board employees being used means line employees can get that extra time off they might need because more extra employees are available. Labor is their own worst enemy when it comes to attendance because of how many are trying to game the system.

At the end of the day, management just needs to crack down on the abusers of the system. I’ve been in these battles on the management side. It’s not fun. You have to go through hell to reach the desired results, but once it’s achieved, everybody wins. It’s not rocket science folks, just come to work and don’t abuse the system you’ve been allotted.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:52 pm

There are a lot of people that game the system, and often there's not much the airline can do. For example , there's one person in particular I know for a fact call out absent for family leave, but only on weekends. Nearly every weekend. This is a very junior person, has a bit more than a year's seniority. It's so obvious even a few of the person's co-workers have openly commented to them about it, and they respond by complaining about having problems with child care. .......but that only happens weekends? Whatever. There's another one (very senior) who dislikes working a particular work area (say it's ticket counter or gates). So when they get assigned that area, they just don't show up, again citing family leave. As soon as the schedule changes back to another work area, this person is back at work. But both of these cases have legitimate FML, so not much the company can do. Meanwhile, the rest of us work short or harder because of them.
..everything works out in the end.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm

So punish everyone for a few bad apples.

And making this retroactive for the LUS FAs is wrong.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:06 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
29-years of service AA Purser here- believe it or not, it isn’t the senior F/As who are abusing the system, it’s the junior F/As with 3 years seniority or less. I fly international and when I see junior F/As on my crew list, I know that I have a 50/50 chance that they’ll actually show up for the trip. I always have to call crew schedule/management during boarding which is a very busy time for me, to get a standby to take the no-show junior F/A’s place. Another thing that I’ve been dealing with is that the junior F/As sign in for their trip ON TIME, but they don’t actually get onboard the aircraft until we’ve started Group 2 boarding, so we don’t know where they are. At least when I see I have the old battle axes in the crew, I can count on them to be on time. I should be taking care of my first/business class passengers during boarding and shouldn’t be on my phone instead calling the company to find out about the whereabouts of missing crew. And at 29 years, I’m considered “middle seniority,” which is ridiculous, but that’s another issue.


Must be nice having over FAA minimum crew so you can be boarding before they've replaced the no-show! My carrier has operated with only the minimum crew for at least 20 years now. I miss those days of having an extra or two!

And I agree....the senior FA's are the most reliable of the bunch. There's a different work ethic among younger people these days...hate to throw everyone into the same pot but the attrition rate and terminations are much higher for junior FA's. Maybe it's the low starting pay but we probably lose 20% by their fifth year. Once you've hit 10 years you're a lifer.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 610
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
longhauler wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:

29-years of service AA Purser here- believe it or not, it isn’t the senior F/As who are abusing the system, it’s the junior F/As with 3 years seniority or less.And at 29 years, I’m considered “middle seniority,” which is ridiculous, but that’s another issue.

I have noticed the same thing. There is a sense of entitlement among the younger generation that is hard to overlook sometimes. So I would guess you are 100% correct that this policy is aimed at younger and not older Flight Attendants.

Recently when briefing the Flight Attendants before boarding I noticed one young woman texting and reading her phone. When, during the safety review, I commented "you may want to be a part of this conversation", she huffed, sighed heavily, rolled her eyes and said, "your just lucky I'm here at all". I said to the Service Director (our Purser), "did you hear that, we're lucky she's here at all"

Good luck dealing with that! I'll take a crew of seasoned, experienced Flight Attendants any day.

And yeah ... where I fly, 29 years gets you middle of the pack! :D

80 percent of the new kids are entitled. When you get a worker, you keep that person. What the heck happened to teaching a work ethic?

You need a crew to fly.

Lightsaber


What I cannot understand - is why would any seasoned aviator want to fly with that person (the 'entitled, texting brat')? What are likely to be her attitudes toward safety, responsibility, and duty?

I am sorry, but allowing that person, who is clearly admitting that they needed to have a 'sick day', or a 'day off' - "You're lucky that I am here at all" - call to your crew resources department and get them to discuss the larger issue, and either get you a new crew member at the next stop, or, sooner, if possible.

While it may be easy to pin an abuse on the 'entitled' attitude - consider that, after 29 years of service - benefits are significantly different (pay, route selection, learned coping mechanisms, a nostalgia regarding 'the good old days/values').

So, two other things though - come to mind; why should the consumer suffer?

1). Despite being an avid AA fan, the company raked in;
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2018/American-Airlines-Group-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-and-Full-Year-2017-Profit/default.aspx... a full year 2017 pre-tax profit of $3.1 billion, or $3.8 billion excluding net special items1, and a full year net profit of $1.9 billion, or $2.4 billion excluding net special items/quote]

The cause of said profits, well take it away Mr. Doug Parker;
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2018/American-Airlines-Group-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-and-Full-Year-2017-Profit/default.aspx“2017 was a remarkable year for American Airlines. We made enormous progress as a company as we continued to make significant investments in our team members, product and operation, and those investments are beginning to pay off,” said Chairman and CEO Doug Parker. “Our operation continues to deliver record-setting performance for the company, and the credit goes to our team members who are simply the best in the business. “We enter 2018 with strong momentum. Demand for American’s reliable, friendly service remains strong, our network is expanding, and the products we are bringing to market are resonating with customers.”


2). Said airline has 27000 other alternatives;

Cause;
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/06/14/american-airlines-flight-attendants-unwelcome-news.html
In a internal memo obtained by the Chicago Business Journal, Surdek told flight attendants that reserve numbers are going up at American Airlines (NASDAQ: AAL) in the months to come.


Effect, on said crew member's life;
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/06/14/american-airlines-flight-attendants-unwelcome-news.html
Typically, flight attendants are able to plan their schedules for the month in advance, so they know exactly when they will be in the air and for how long. Not so when on reserve. Surdek also was honest with her team of flight attendants, conceding that “nobody likes being on reserve.”


Mind you, the article mentions how a leading competitor deals with the real issue at hand;

Problem created:
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/06/14/american-airlines-flight-attendants-unwelcome-news.htmlWrote Surdek: “In May — which isn’t historically a peak month — we utilized over 80 percent of all reserves on an average day. However, on peak days in May we used nearly 100 percent of our reserves, which means we almost ran out of crews on those days." And as Surdek goes on to note in her memo — running out of crews could create serious operational risks. Those risks might include delayed or canceled flights.


How the competitor deals with it:
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/06/14/american-airlines-flight-attendants-unwelcome-news.htmlAA’s plan to up its reserve ranks comes in the wake of details about Delta Air Line’s (NYSE: DAL) plan to entice more flight attendants to work more hours during the peak summer travel season. The carrier is offering every flight attendant who works 100 hours or more for each of June, July and August a $1,000 “thank you” bonus.


Then, why - would I, a passenger - who paid to sit in seat that is no more wide, no more comfortable - and increasingly less 'premium' than any other - pay more for it, and then have to 'deal' with a flight attendant, for whatever reason has an appalling attitude towards her job. Her primary task is to ensure my safety, and she is directly failing to do so, by texting during the safety briefing.

Regardless of her reasons/reasoning, the company has the ability to make appropriate changes to staffing both short and long term. This issue is of their own design. They certainly reap the profits of said creation. So, why should I, as the consumer - suffer, at least, worse service - and terrible safety awareness. Company policy? Pay the flight attendants better, treat them more humanely, admit that (as a condition of their human nature, and the immense pressures of the job, and an inhuman schedule) everyone can have a bad day. Considering that they are making billions of dollars of profit, and directly claim that this is due to the efforts of said employees - consider paying it back to them, in kind(ness).

From the perspective of the consumer - and be it, one with anything lesser than a sophomoric knowledge of the industry - this looks like another terrible spat, being played out in public, on the public, while a company serves me with lesser services, harsher staff - and increased profits.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:21 pm

slvrblt wrote:
There are a lot of people that game the system, and often there's not much the airline can do. For example , there's one person in particular I know for a fact call out absent for family leave, but only on weekends. Nearly every weekend. This is a very junior person, has a bit more than a year's seniority. It's so obvious even a few of the person's co-workers have openly commented to them about it, and they respond by complaining about having problems with child care. .......but that only happens weekends? Whatever. There's another one (very senior) who dislikes working a particular work area (say it's ticket counter or gates). So when they get assigned that area, they just don't show up, again citing family leave. As soon as the schedule changes back to another work area, this person is back at work. But both of these cases have legitimate FML, so not much the company can do. Meanwhile, the rest of us work short or harder because of them.



Another pretty common thing is getting sick at the begging of a trip especially after crossing the Atlantic or Pacific but strangely they never get sick at the end of a trip just before heading back home????
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:39 pm

I think this is more about the 5,000 +FAs who have gotten sick because of chemical allergies from their uniforms. I think AA is tired of dealing with these FAs and tired of them raising a stink. So, since they will probably be sicker than average, this is a great way to get rid of them. Uniform make you sick? Too bad. Your fired.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Unemployment isn’t a court judge and unemployment doesn’t have the authority to reinstate a job if terminated.

Those are Adminstrative Law, not the regular court system.


Unemployment/administrative law judges can't reinstate a job, but can rule on whether or not there was sufficient cause for termination, which not only affects unemployment status, but can also not only have a profound impact on the individual's ability to take legal action against the company, but also impact the grievance process itself for those covered under CBAs.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
So punish everyone for a few bad apples.


No, only the "bad apples" get punished; those who have decent attendance reliability won't be affected by this change in the slightest.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:59 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
So punish everyone for a few bad apples.


No, only the "bad apples" get punished; those who have decent attendance reliability won't be affected by this change in the slightest.


Glad to see your compassion, get one major illness and AA terminates you.

You must be Frank Lorenzo disciple.

And you are ok with them going back and making this policy retroactive from a year ago?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:00 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
What’s funny about this is, amongst organized labor groups, the one, most commonly complained about thing is attendance! And not their employers policies, but their peers inability to come to work.


This. I can't begin to tell you how often employees complain about how other employees "are never here" or "always seem to be out at critical times" and so on. And because they all tend to share information freely with one another, they tend to know when someone is milking the system vs. having a legitimate, ongoing health problem.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:02 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
So punish everyone for a few bad apples.


No, only the "bad apples" get punished; those who have decent attendance reliability won't be affected by this change in the slightest.


Glad to see your compassion, get one major illness and AA terminates you.

You must be Frank Lorenzo disciple.

And you are ok with them going back and making this policy retroactive from a year ago?


One major illness and I'd be coaching them to get FMLA, followed by a medical leave of absence if it's necessary once FMLA is exhausted, in hopes the employee can fully recover and return to work.

But if they have ongoing issues that affect their ability to do the work, then yes, sometimes separation happens, despite all efforts to keep that from occurring.

And if you'd bothered to read what I wrote earlier on, you'd know that I think they're best served in resolving the uniform issue plaguing 4000 or more flight attendants before implementing the new policy.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:06 pm

And when you run out of 12 weeks of FMLA if you have cancer or heart attack?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:13 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
And when you run out of 12 weeks of FMLA if you have cancer or heart attack?


Take a medical leave of absence, which protects your employment, or talk with the company about possible workplace accommodations under the ADA, depending on the workgroup or job function. For example, it's not uncommon to see an employee who can no longer lift 50lbs and therefore can't work at the airport be offered a position in reservations, where there's no physical activity required.

There are options to protect someone's employment when these things occur. They may not be exactly what the employee wants, but there are options.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:23 pm

Twenty-five years ago, my wife worked for a Fortune 500 company. If you called in sick the day after a holiday (Christmas, New Year's, Memorial Day, Columbus Day, etc.), you had to have a doctor's note.

My son's high school only allows 6 excused absences per semester. Beyond 6, a parent must provide a doctor's note.

Tardiness. I'm a little flexible with that. If you leave for the airport, allowing an extra 45 minutes, and there is a severe accident that blocks the highway causing a back-up miles long, the company should show some mercy.

If you remember back in 1987, Chicago has torrential rains that turned ORD into an island. I-190 was flooded, with about 6 feet of water. And the flood was west on the Mannheim interchange, so that wasn't an option. You had flights cancelled, because of a lack of crews. And if there were crews who could get to ORD, the planes were empty because passengers (other than connecting passengers) couldn't get into the airport.

But, in the grand scheme, the flight attendants are over-reacting. If there are any cooler heads in the leadership, they ought to sit down with management, agree that there are F/As taking advantage of the current situation, and try to work out something that resolves 90% of what management wants while being just a bit less Draconian.

However, having a father who worked in labor relations for a Fortune 50 company, often there are no cooler heads in labor union leadership.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:28 pm

longhauler wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Maybe this will weed out some of the geriatric mommas who abuse the system.


29-years of service AA Purser here- believe it or not, it isn’t the senior F/As who are abusing the system, it’s the junior F/As with 3 years seniority or less.And at 29 years, I’m considered “middle seniority,” which is ridiculous, but that’s another issue.

I have noticed the same thing. There is a sense of entitlement among the younger generation that is hard to overlook sometimes. So I would guess you are 100% correct that this policy is aimed at younger and not older Flight Attendants.

Recently when briefing the Flight Attendants before boarding I noticed one young woman texting and reading her phone. When, during the safety review, I commented "you may want to be a part of this conversation", she huffed, sighed heavily, rolled her eyes and said, "your just lucky I'm here at all". I said to the Service Director (our Purser), "did you hear that, we're lucky she's here at all"

Good luck dealing with that! I'll take a crew of seasoned, experienced Flight Attendants any day.

And yeah ... where I fly, 29 years gets you middle of the pack! :D


You get what you pay for. Being an FA isn't the attractive lifelong career it once was. Decent pay and pensions are gone; working conditions have deteriorated; some airlines even make FAs pay for their own training because the skills are transferable ( a none-too-subtle way for airlines to say they don't expect - or need - FAs to stick around). Factor in general increases to the cost in living in the main hubs and...well, the old dictum applies: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:38 pm

While I have no problem with the policy personally as it is industry-standard in the US, PHX is a pretty large crew base and Arizona law does not allow employees to be punished or reprimanded for using their 40 hours of paid sick leave. The PSL law also does not require a set prior notice; only requires employees to notify their employer as soon as practical (or possible; forget the actual wording). The law DOES NOT discriminate based on what day it is so the "critical" travel days will also be an issue. If AA has found a way around this law that was passed by the voters of AZ, I would be interested in knowing how as the law does not allow exceptions as far as I know.
Fly CHD!
 
jimatkins
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:57 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:14 pm

I just retired as a teacher. Being absent didn't risk loss of revenue the way a crew absence does, but it was a pain in the butt. Our contract required pre-approval of personal days, and a doctor's note for more than (I think) four sick days in a row. We did have alert days when all possible subs were booked. If you had something you could reschedule, they strongly urged it. That's not too different from what AA is urging.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:23 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
I think this is more about the 5,000 +FAs who have gotten sick because of chemical allergies from their uniforms. I think AA is tired of dealing with these FAs and tired of them raising a stink. So, since they will probably be sicker than average, this is a great way to get rid of them. Uniform make you sick? Too bad. Your fired.


No, you're wrong. A lot of other groups besides flight attendants have been affected by the nasty uniforms. If you are allergic, there are alternatives that have been offered that meet company requirements in the interim, until a new uniform is available. There's also an alternative company you can order from in the meantime, although those uniforms appear slightly different. Even so, those can be worn if you are allergic, and no one is getting fired because of that. Talk about fake news. Your statement above is completely untrue.
..everything works out in the end.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
longhauler wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:

29-years of service AA Purser here- believe it or not, it isn’t the senior F/As who are abusing the system, it’s the junior F/As with 3 years seniority or less.And at 29 years, I’m considered “middle seniority,” which is ridiculous, but that’s another issue.

I have noticed the same thing. There is a sense of entitlement among the younger generation that is hard to overlook sometimes. So I would guess you are 100% correct that this policy is aimed at younger and not older Flight Attendants.

Recently when briefing the Flight Attendants before boarding I noticed one young woman texting and reading her phone. When, during the safety review, I commented "you may want to be a part of this conversation", she huffed, sighed heavily, rolled her eyes and said, "your just lucky I'm here at all". I said to the Service Director (our Purser), "did you hear that, we're lucky she's here at all"

Good luck dealing with that! I'll take a crew of seasoned, experienced Flight Attendants any day.

And yeah ... where I fly, 29 years gets you middle of the pack! :D


You get what you pay for. Being an FA isn't the attractive lifelong career it once was. Decent pay and pensions are gone; working conditions have deteriorated; some airlines even make FAs pay for their own training because the skills are transferable ( a none-too-subtle way for airlines to say they don't expect - or need - FAs to stick around). Factor in general increases to the cost in living in the main hubs and...well, the old dictum applies: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.



If that was true than why do they never leave and go do something else? It is pretty obvious the job pays too well for them to leave.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3871
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:48 pm

ckfred wrote:
Twenty-five years ago, my wife worked for a Fortune 500 company. If you called in sick the day after a holiday (Christmas, New Year's, Memorial Day, Columbus Day, etc.), you had to have a doctor's note.

My son's high school only allows 6 excused absences per semester. Beyond 6, a parent must provide a doctor's note.

Tardiness. I'm a little flexible with that. If you leave for the airport, allowing an extra 45 minutes, and there is a severe accident that blocks the highway causing a back-up miles long, the company should show some mercy.


So in Canada doctors are actually pushing back against the requirement for doctors notes if employees are not exceeding their allotted sick days, in Ontario the rule is 10 days of which 2 of them have to be paid. A company that I previously worked for actually awarded 50% of the unused sick days as vacation time on the off peak time of year.

The reason is that most illnesses such as cold and flu which is what most people whom call in sick have (or their kids do) do not require a doctors visit. They require rest and you get better within 2-3 days, also any competent manager can suss out whom is potentially abusing sick time. Simply being, does someone often take Monday or Friday off or is frequently sick before or after long weekends.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:17 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I have noticed the same thing. There is a sense of entitlement among the younger generation that is hard to overlook sometimes. So I would guess you are 100% correct that this policy is aimed at younger and not older Flight Attendants.

Recently when briefing the Flight Attendants before boarding I noticed one young woman texting and reading her phone. When, during the safety review, I commented "you may want to be a part of this conversation", she huffed, sighed heavily, rolled her eyes and said, "your just lucky I'm here at all". I said to the Service Director (our Purser), "did you hear that, we're lucky she's here at all"

Good luck dealing with that! I'll take a crew of seasoned, experienced Flight Attendants any day.

And yeah ... where I fly, 29 years gets you middle of the pack! :D


You get what you pay for. Being an FA isn't the attractive lifelong career it once was. Decent pay and pensions are gone; working conditions have deteriorated; some airlines even make FAs pay for their own training because the skills are transferable ( a none-too-subtle way for airlines to say they don't expect - or need - FAs to stick around). Factor in general increases to the cost in living in the main hubs and...well, the old dictum applies: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.



If that was true than why do they never leave and go do something else? It is pretty obvious the job pays too well for them to leave.


Never leave? There is plenty of turnover. And I don't think $1,600 a month in NYC or SFO is too good to leave, which is the average starting pay for a reserve FA. They actually have to live in ILLEGAL and dangerous crash pads to make ends meet. Sometimes I wonder what would happen to the airlines crews if the cities cracked down on those overcrowded and illegal crash pads. Maybe they'd have to pay enough for their employees to afford a safe apartment? Imagine that.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1455
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:44 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

You get what you pay for. Being an FA isn't the attractive lifelong career it once was. Decent pay and pensions are gone; working conditions have deteriorated; some airlines even make FAs pay for their own training because the skills are transferable ( a none-too-subtle way for airlines to say they don't expect - or need - FAs to stick around). Factor in general increases to the cost in living in the main hubs and...well, the old dictum applies: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.



If that was true than why do they never leave and go do something else? It is pretty obvious the job pays too well for them to leave.


Never leave? There is plenty of turnover. And I don't think $1,600 a month in NYC or SFO is too good to leave, which is the average starting pay for a reserve FA. They actually have to live in ILLEGAL and dangerous crash pads to make ends meet. Sometimes I wonder what would happen to the airlines crews if the cities cracked down on those overcrowded and illegal crash pads. Maybe they'd have to pay enough for their employees to afford a safe apartment? Imagine that.


I think there is a lot of turnover amongst new FAs, those that have stayed awhile tend to stay for-ev-er.
 
KUZAWU08
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:14 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:20 pm

Assessing disciplinary points for something is a punishment, doesn’t matter how many it takes until action. If you’re sick, you’re sick... you can’t control it and should not be punished for it. I fully understand limiting sick days and factoring that into performance reviews... however, it’s not something you have a say over. Additionally, these points have the potential to be assessed improperly- replacing something like a callout for bereavement or personal emergency.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:25 pm

slvrblt wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
I think this is more about the 5,000 +FAs who have gotten sick because of chemical allergies from their uniforms. I think AA is tired of dealing with these FAs and tired of them raising a stink. So, since they will probably be sicker than average, this is a great way to get rid of them. Uniform make you sick? Too bad. Your fired.


No, you're wrong. A lot of other groups besides flight attendants have been affected by the nasty uniforms. If you are allergic, there are alternatives that have been offered that meet company requirements in the interim, until a new uniform is available. There's also an alternative company you can order from in the meantime, although those uniforms appear slightly different. Even so, those can be worn if you are allergic, and no one is getting fired because of that. Talk about fake news. Your statement above is completely untrue.


In fairness, I know many AA flight attendants, some who aren't affected by the uniforms, and some who are either somewhat or profoundly impacted, and while the substitute uniforms can help some of the employees, there are others who have developed such sensitivities to them that even being in close proximity is problematic. So if you're wearing the substitute but the rest of the crew you're flying with isn't, you're still just as affected.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:39 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
slvrblt wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
I think this is more about the 5,000 +FAs who have gotten sick because of chemical allergies from their uniforms. I think AA is tired of dealing with these FAs and tired of them raising a stink. So, since they will probably be sicker than average, this is a great way to get rid of them. Uniform make you sick? Too bad. Your fired.


No, you're wrong. A lot of other groups besides flight attendants have been affected by the nasty uniforms. If you are allergic, there are alternatives that have been offered that meet company requirements in the interim, until a new uniform is available. There's also an alternative company you can order from in the meantime, although those uniforms appear slightly different. Even so, those can be worn if you are allergic, and no one is getting fired because of that. Talk about fake news. Your statement above is completely untrue.


In fairness, I know many AA flight attendants, some who aren't affected by the uniforms, and some who are either somewhat or profoundly impacted, and while the substitute uniforms can help some of the employees, there are others who have developed such sensitivities to them that even being in close proximity is problematic. So if you're wearing the substitute but the rest of the crew you're flying with isn't, you're still just as affected.


Yes, I guess it could be possible.......I haven't seen it in practice though, to be honest. There's lots of ground people with the same allergic issue. We still work side by side, them with myself and others in the original uniform, day after day, while they wear the replacement uniform or other alternative. They're allergic, I'm/we're not. But they don't seem to be affected by my uniform's closeness. As long as they're not wearing the uniform, they're not bothered. Not saying it couldn't happen, but.......seems odd. Why would it happen with FA's and not agents?
..everything works out in the end.
 
d8s
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
So punish everyone for a few bad apples.


No, only the "bad apples" get punished; those who have decent attendance reliability won't be affected by this change in the slightest.


Glad to see your compassion, get one major illness and AA terminates you.

You must be Frank Lorenzo disciple.

And you are ok with them going back and making this policy retroactive from a year ago?


A major illness is different, FMLA is a federal law that protects the worker for long term illness. The reason for these changes is the short time "time off" that has become an issue. Those employees who follow the rules will not have an issue.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:54 pm

As someone else noted. The points for taking sick days on certain dates is designed to punish repeat offenders. My workplace is unionized and we are allowed 15 sick days per year and only need a note if it goes past 5 days in a row. We have had people who tend to miss almost every Friday for example and they can't be punished by they are "spoken to",
Assuming it is 1 point per violation, you'd probably deserve a reprimand if you got to 8 points. Especially if it resets in a 12 month period.

that being said. I know if this was presented at my workplace. The HR department and management would be spoken about with a variety of colorful names.
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:01 pm

And to clarify, except for the “critical” coverage, when enforced, this is the current LUS program.
Last edited by flyboy7974 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Gumffo1
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:45 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:01 pm

As much as I hate this trend, I have to say it's hardly shocking.

In the 2+ years I have been working as cabin crew at a mainline U.S. carrier, we have always had a similar policy which has in fact recently got stricter. Under ours, we are allowed 3 sick days off per year with a doctor's note for each (assuming no other infractions) or 2 late shows or 1 tardy resulting in a delayed flight and a no-show is instant termination. What's more, although we are unionized (not that it seems to make much difference), there is no review process should the company deem that an occurrence has happened. We knew we were probably one of the more extreme carriers in this sense (and had hoped the program would eventually be scrapped in all honesty) but it seems other airlines are now following suit.
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:06 pm

And to clarify, except for the “critical” coverage, when enforced, this is the current LUS program justnow turned into points.
 
redroo
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:28 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:18 pm

To offer a different perspective

It’s been a while but this issue would cause qantas problems. There were known hot spots in the crewing calendar that required substantially extra crew to be on reserve to cover “sickness” - namely Christmas, Australia Day, and in Sydney Mardi Gras.

The increased level of “sickness” on these days cost the company money because of the extra crewing.

What did they do about it? The system would highlight any unusual patterns of sickness and there would be “please explain” meetings. It would pick up things like commuters calling in sick for short trips; sickness before or after leave; sickness around the “preferred dates”.

No one Down Under is going to slam you for “chucking a sickie” but they will get annoyed if you’re seen to be “taking the piss” - and doing a “roster adjustment” to suit your lifestyle falls into that category.
 
beerbus
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:23 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
And when you run out of 12 weeks of FMLA if you have cancer or heart attack?


At Delta, they generally take care of people in the situation you reference- for example:

A Delta Air Lines Flight Attendant friend of mine was out on Medical leave for over three years. Had shoulder surgery which affected her ability to push service carts up and down the aisle.

DL told her to "get well, and come back when you feel ready to work again". A note from the MD was required though.

She was under no pressure to return. And it didn't take $1,000 in annual union dues for her to gain this leave from Delta.

She did attend annual training to stay current- but otherwise never worked during that period. She recently gave up hope for improvement and retired.

Because she had no earnings during her leave, she did lose out on aprox $40,000 in profit sharing during that period- profit sharing she never received in 20 yrs at NW while being represented by a couple of different unions.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:16 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
While I have no problem with the policy personally as it is industry-standard in the US, PHX is a pretty large crew base and Arizona law does not allow employees to be punished or reprimanded for using their 40 hours of paid sick leave. The PSL law also does not require a set prior notice; only requires employees to notify their employer as soon as practical (or possible; forget the actual wording). The law DOES NOT discriminate based on what day it is so the "critical" travel days will also be an issue. If AA has found a way around this law that was passed by the voters of AZ, I would be interested in knowing how as the law does not allow exceptions as far as I know.


There is an exemption in the law for employees covered under a CBA.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: New Rule for AA FA's deemed "cruel" and "disastrous"

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:12 pm

Maverick623 wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
While I have no problem with the policy personally as it is industry-standard in the US, PHX is a pretty large crew base and Arizona law does not allow employees to be punished or reprimanded for using their 40 hours of paid sick leave. The PSL law also does not require a set prior notice; only requires employees to notify their employer as soon as practical (or possible; forget the actual wording). The law DOES NOT discriminate based on what day it is so the "critical" travel days will also be an issue. If AA has found a way around this law that was passed by the voters of AZ, I would be interested in knowing how as the law does not allow exceptions as far as I know.


There is an exemption in the law for employees covered under a CBA.


News to me. While I do not doubt it, that underscores the flaws within the law. Some employees get the gold standard and others have to follow corporate rules? What is good for one should be good for all if it is a statewide referendum. This is getting dangerously close to politics so I will stop. Thanks for the clarification.
Fly CHD!

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos