eamondzhang
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Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:34 pm

Latest rumour says CZ 777-300ER will go 3-4-3 in Y with the reconfiguration plan. It also involves re-configuring other widebodies including PW-engined A330s and 787-8.

With the change, CZ's config will be:
777-300ER from F4 C34 W44 Y227 to C28 W28 Y305
A330-200 (pw birds) from F4 C24 W48 Y142 to C18 Y244
A330-300 (all PW birds) from C30 W48/42 Y197/187 to C30 Y253 (effectively removing W class)
788 will go from F4 C24 Y200 to C18 Y248

So effectively for CZ, F will only remain on A380 and old RR-powered A333, while W will continue on 77W and 789 only (no A380 does not have any W seats).

Michael
Last edited by eamondzhang on Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jodieellis
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Wow, are they about to increase capacity and cuts First Class?
 
waly777
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:54 pm

Finally... they see the light. The future configs better suits the market demand.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:56 pm

jodieellis wrote:
Wow, are they about to increase capacity and cuts First Class?

To push down the fare this is about the only way they can go, plus I think they're selling dirt cheap premium class tickets now so it would also be a bid to increase the price tag a bit.

waly777 wrote:
Finally... they see the light. The future configs better suits the market demand.

Indeed their old config (especially on A332 and 788) is deemed as ridiculous by everyone except CZ (well I think their JV with AFKL has a clause said they have to have F class hence the reason).

Michael
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:34 am

eamondzhang wrote:

So effectively for CZ, F will only remain on A380 and old RR-powered A333, while W will continue on 77W and 789 only (no A380 does not have any W seats).

Michael


The new Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners are configured C28Y269 have no premium economy class, perhaps the new A350 have a more premium configuration
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:48 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:

So effectively for CZ, F will only remain on A380 and old RR-powered A333, while W will continue on 77W and 789 only (no A380 does not have any W seats).

Michael


The new Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners are configured C28Y269 have no premium economy class, perhaps the new A350 have a more premium configuration

There's two configuration for 787-9; the portion of CZ-owned birds come with W class seats with a config of C28 W28 Y220.

With the current move I doubt their A350 config will be more premium, with 77Ws removing F class seat and reducing C class seat counts as well. I bet we'll see CZ moving more towards a Y heavy company as their newly delivered narrowbody planes (from late 2016 IIRC) now features 4 C class seats only instead of the more traditional 8 or 12 seats.

Michael
 
tphuang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:52 am

Makes sense, given how little they get on the j fares, might as well pack in as many people as they can.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:15 am

CZ's B77W seats in 3-3-3 Y are already narrow at just 17.2" wide, a seat width that can be retained at 3-4-3, taking out the room from the aisles. That said, why such a deep cut in F and J? Even CX is only changing its Y cabin, keeping 53 J seats on its 4-class B77Ws, although they have only 294 seats on the reconfigured 4-class frames.

Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. (How many B789s would CZ be getting? This is a route that can require as many as 6 planes at a time.)
 
juliuswong
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:04 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
CZ's B77W seats in 3-3-3 Y are already narrow at just 17.2" wide, a seat width that can be retained at 3-4-3, taking out the room from the aisles. That said, why such a deep cut in F and J? Even CX is only changing its Y cabin, keeping 53 J seats on its 4-class B77Ws, although they have only 294 seats on the reconfigured 4-class frames.

Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. (How many B789s would CZ be getting? This is a route that can require as many as 6 planes at a time.)

They are getting 20 B787-9 in total. 8 through lease. In Mandarin only: https://www.csair.com/cn/about/news/new ... fgc7.shtml
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
questions
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:24 am

CZ is reducing its premium capacity. Other Asian carriers seem to have larger premium cabins. Is this because CZ had been unable to grab more share of the premium market or is the premium market declining?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:13 am

I find their configurations a little weird, the 788 that comes to AKL is 4F 24J 200Y whole the A332 is 4F 24J 48W 142Y, I would have thought they would offer W more consistently throughout the long haul fleet with no F on some frames.

Which 789 will AKL get? Or are the ones with W long haul and the ones without short/medium haul?

And will those current 4 class A332’s that go 2 class still be long haul? It would seem so with 18J 244Y which is only 262?

aemoreira1981 wrote:
CZ's B77W seats in 3-3-3 Y are already narrow at just 17.2" wide, a seat width that can be retained at 3-4-3, taking out the room from the aisles. That said, why such a deep cut in F and J? Even CX is only changing its Y cabin, keeping 53 J seats on its 4-class B77Ws, although they have only 294 seats on the reconfigured 4-class frames.

Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. (How many B789s would CZ be getting? This is a route that can require as many as 6 planes at a time.)


JFK would have to have a very long ground time to require 6 frames, if 2 daily it should be 4 max and 3 I’d scheduled with the same type and well timed.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:17 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
I find their configurations a little weird, the 788 that comes to AKL is 4F 24J 200Y whole the A332 is 4F 24J 48W 142Y, I would have thought they would offer W more consistently throughout the long haul fleet with no F on some frames.

Which 789 will AKL get? Or are the ones with W long haul and the ones without short/medium haul?

And will those current 4 class A332’s that go 2 class still be long haul? It would seem so with 18J 244Y which is only 262?

aemoreira1981 wrote:
CZ's B77W seats in 3-3-3 Y are already narrow at just 17.2" wide, a seat width that can be retained at 3-4-3, taking out the room from the aisles. That said, why such a deep cut in F and J? Even CX is only changing its Y cabin, keeping 53 J seats on its 4-class B77Ws, although they have only 294 seats on the reconfigured 4-class frames.

Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. (How many B789s would CZ be getting? This is a route that can require as many as 6 planes at a time.)


JFK would have to have a very long ground time to require 6 frames, if 2 daily it should be 4 max and 3 I’d scheduled with the same type and well timed.

One has a 2 hour turnaround but the other 7.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:30 pm

questions wrote:
CZ is reducing its premium capacity. Other Asian carriers seem to have larger premium cabins. Is this because CZ had been unable to grab more share of the premium market or is the premium market declining?


It is a misstep by the management. It will hurt CZ in the long run.

Reducing premium seat will effectively kill of CZ's competitiveness. If the future market is soft, airline with most premium seats will have the pressure. So they will move first by trying to fill the cabin with cheaper seats. Airline with least premium seat will suffer as its customers will react to the cheap fares. And in the same time, the airline with the least premium seats can not fight a fare war. Let us say an airline with 30 Business seats on its A330 and CZ has 18. The former airline can sell 10 ticket at 500, 10 more at 750 and the rest can be flexible selling at either 750 or 1000. CZ would only have room to sell 3 at 500 and 10 at 750 while 5 at 1000. It makes very difficult for CZ to match the fare at 500.

In the same time, CZ would have more pressure to sell more seats at economy thus has to keep fares cheap.

Then without the premium economy it would be very difficult for CZ to up sale. Because with 18 Business class seats, the room for flexibility in revenue management is small.

Small premium cabin works in a clean cut high fare small demand environment. But CZ's hub in CAN and PEK is very competitive. And the premium demand is smaller than say, PVG or HKG. I fear the move indicates that CZ is taking a defeat in premium market, and such move will ultimately hurt them in the long run.
 
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:03 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
I find their configurations a little weird, the 788 that comes to AKL is 4F 24J 200Y whole the A332 is 4F 24J 48W 142Y, I would have thought they would offer W more consistently throughout the long haul fleet with no F on some frames.

Which 789 will AKL get? Or are the ones with W long haul and the ones without short/medium haul?

And will those current 4 class A332’s that go 2 class still be long haul? It would seem so with 18J 244Y which is only 262?

aemoreira1981 wrote:
CZ's B77W seats in 3-3-3 Y are already narrow at just 17.2" wide, a seat width that can be retained at 3-4-3, taking out the room from the aisles. That said, why such a deep cut in F and J? Even CX is only changing its Y cabin, keeping 53 J seats on its 4-class B77Ws, although they have only 294 seats on the reconfigured 4-class frames.

Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. (How many B789s would CZ be getting? This is a route that can require as many as 6 planes at a time.)


JFK would have to have a very long ground time to require 6 frames, if 2 daily it should be 4 max and 3 I’d scheduled with the same type and well timed.

One has a 2 hour turnaround but the other 7.


That would require 4 frames max even if they are different types.
 
workhorse
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:50 pm

I am tired to be disappointed. After that move, there will be no more difference between CZ and MU.

Unfortunately, this looks like a rule now: once an airline gets the 787, the 777s go 10-abreast. Gawd, how I hate both these planes.
 
itisi
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:03 pm

Lovely...... I'll avoid any airline doing this for as long as I can. A380's for me!
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:43 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Another question on this...the advertised range on the B77W is 7370 nmi with 396 passengers. This will be at 361 passengers. Will there be an equipment change resulting from this on a route like JFK-CAN, which is almost 7000 nmi? (This is CZ's longest route at 6960 nmi, operated double-daily with one arrival near midnight into JFK and one true red-eye, returning at midnight and late morning, respectively.) The B77W might be restricted in winter with the last row in Y blocked---the 276-seat B789 (7635 nmi range at 290 passengers) would not be. )

CX didn't have any issue when flying three-class 77Ws to the USA, or even BR for the matter and that's when BR doesn't have polar route advantage to go with. And EK with a similar seat count doesn't have much issues flying DXB-LAX. So I would say CZ's in good hands.

ZK-NBT wrote:
Which 789 will AKL get? Or are the ones with W long haul and the ones without short/medium haul?

And will those current 4 class A332’s that go 2 class still be long haul? It would seem so with 18J 244Y which is only 262?

AKL is getting the one without W class and yes all four-class A332s are going 18J 244Y.

chonetsao wrote:

For CZ it doesn't really matter since they're already selling AU$4500 AU-USA tickets in C or US$2000 USA-China tickets in C. It could actually be more high-yielding when swapping to more Y class traffic given the amount the premium seats take while also helping CZ pushing up the premium class tickets.

Michael
 
chonetsao
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:25 am

eamondzhang wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

chonetsao wrote:

For CZ it doesn't really matter since they're already selling AU$4500 AU-USA tickets in C or US$2000 USA-China tickets in C. It could actually be more high-yielding when swapping to more Y class traffic given the amount the premium seats take while also helping CZ pushing up the premium class tickets.

Michael


Hi Michael, that is exactly what I am trying to illustrate where CZ got it wrong: less premium seats in CZ does not push up the premium class ticket fares, because CZ would loose the ability to dominate the market by reducing its premium market share. CZ would like to see what you said that premium fares being pushed up. But the market would say other wise. Airline with most premium seats can dominate or lead the price mark in the market, with its flexibility in yield and revenue management. CZ would have to follow. but with 18 business class seats instead of 30 other airlines have, CZ will loose the ability to engage in a price war. It will work out if there are people willing to pay high price on CZ. But market has told us again and again that people go for cheaper fares, whether it is premium class or coach.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:59 pm

chonetsao wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:


For CZ it doesn't really matter since they're already selling AU$4500 AU-USA tickets in C or US$2000 USA-China tickets in C. It could actually be more high-yielding when swapping to more Y class traffic given the amount the premium seats take while also helping CZ pushing up the premium class tickets.

Michael


Hi Michael, that is exactly what I am trying to illustrate where CZ got it wrong: less premium seats in CZ does not push up the premium class ticket fares, because CZ would loose the ability to dominate the market by reducing its premium market share. CZ would like to see what you said that premium fares being pushed up. But the market would say other wise. Airline with most premium seats can dominate or lead the price mark in the market, with its flexibility in yield and revenue management. CZ would have to follow. but with 18 business class seats instead of 30 other airlines have, CZ will loose the ability to engage in a price war. It will work out if there are people willing to pay high price on CZ. But market has told us again and again that people go for cheaper fares, whether it is premium class or coach.


You don't have to dominate a market to make money, especially when your hub is CAN where there isn't as much international competition. CZ has the ability to tailor their product to suit the O/D and connecting traffic mix with limited interference from other carriers. Where they might not be able to win a price war in J, they certainly can compete in Y, which may suit their network better and give them the competitive niche they need.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:23 pm

You still have CA which has 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 on its 777s.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:32 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
You still have CA which has 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 on its 777s.


There are 392-seat and 311-seat B77Ws at CA. The former is 2 class and 3-4-3, while the latter is 3 class and 3-3-3.
 
workhorse
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:39 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
You still have CA which has 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 on its 777s.


That's true, but unfortunately, the worm is in the fruit already: the last 7 77Ws delivered to CA (2 class) are 10-abreast. The 20 older ones (3 class) are still OK, but for how long?

As I said, once an airline gets a 787, that's the beginning of the slippery slope.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:42 pm

workhorse wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
You still have CA which has 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 on its 777s.


That's true, but unfortunately, the worm is in the fruit already: the last 7 77Ws delivered to CA (2 class) are 10-abreast. The 20 older ones (3 class) are still OK, but for how long?

As I said, once an airline gets a 787, that's the beginning of the slippery slope.

CA's two-class 3-4-3 seats actually has a bit of political implications into it - when there's the need to evacuate people due to whatever reasons these birds are the first to be considered. Hence they need to fit as many as they can in case of such mass evacuations. They also took this opportunity to make it a cattle-car ops in some areas where the demand for cheap Y ticket is endless while the premium demand is more limited.

whywhyzee wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:


Hi Michael, that is exactly what I am trying to illustrate where CZ got it wrong: less premium seats in CZ does not push up the premium class ticket fares, because CZ would loose the ability to dominate the market by reducing its premium market share. CZ would like to see what you said that premium fares being pushed up. But the market would say other wise. Airline with most premium seats can dominate or lead the price mark in the market, with its flexibility in yield and revenue management. CZ would have to follow. but with 18 business class seats instead of 30 other airlines have, CZ will loose the ability to engage in a price war. It will work out if there are people willing to pay high price on CZ. But market has told us again and again that people go for cheaper fares, whether it is premium class or coach.


You don't have to dominate a market to make money, especially when your hub is CAN where there isn't as much international competition. CZ has the ability to tailor their product to suit the O/D and connecting traffic mix with limited interference from other carriers. Where they might not be able to win a price war in J, they certainly can compete in Y, which may suit their network better and give them the competitive niche they need.

Well to be honest no airline dominates premium market by dumping seats into it if you can't provide proper services. No one also wins customers by pushing fares down in premium market trying to grab a share as the market is more price insensitive. It also relates to where you're based as whywhyzee said. China Eastern and Air China don't find much issue filling their large premium cabin due to either their service (relatively in China Eastern's case) and location (for both of them). When you serve $5 wine or $10 Champagne in First Class you can never get much proper premium traffic, large or small, and the only persons that keep buying those are mostly those who are Gold/Platinum members of CZ's FFP.

Michael
 
workhorse
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:50 am

eamondzhang wrote:
CA's two-class 3-4-3 seats actually has a bit of political implications into it - when there's the need to evacuate people due to whatever reasons these birds are the first to be considered. Hence they need to fit as many as they can in case of such mass evacuations. They also took this opportunity to make it a cattle-car ops in some areas where the demand for cheap Y ticket is endless while the premium demand is more limited.


Ah, I think I see what you are talking about. Like evacuation from some far away country on a far away continent if there is a sudden unexpected political process involving massive use of AK-47?

So, you mean only these 7 will be 3-4-3? The 20 3-class ones will remain untouched?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:46 pm

What doesn't make sense is how CZ had 3-4-3 on the 772, but 3-3-3 on the 773. Why didn't they go 3-4-3 initially on the 773?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:52 pm

workhorse wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
CA's two-class 3-4-3 seats actually has a bit of political implications into it - when there's the need to evacuate people due to whatever reasons these birds are the first to be considered. Hence they need to fit as many as they can in case of such mass evacuations. They also took this opportunity to make it a cattle-car ops in some areas where the demand for cheap Y ticket is endless while the premium demand is more limited.


Ah, I think I see what you are talking about. Like evacuation from some far away country on a far away continent if there is a sudden unexpected political process involving massive use of AK-47?

So, you mean only these 7 will be 3-4-3? The 20 3-class ones will remain untouched?

Spot on for all points. At least that's the plan for the foreseeable future, no reconfig for CA as far as I'm aware of.

Ziyulu wrote:
What doesn't make sense is how CZ had 3-4-3 on the 772, but 3-3-3 on the 773. Why didn't they go 3-4-3 initially on the 773?

CZ also had 3-3-3 on their now-retired 777-200ERs so initially they wanna keep it constant on international end. Turns out revenue left on the table was more important.

Michael
 
workhorse
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Re: Rumour: CZ 77W to go 3-4-3 in Y

Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:08 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
no reconfig for CA as far as I'm aware of.


That's good news. However, they should avoid flying them on longhaul international (like YVR and SYD) and limit them to short domestic flights (they have enough of those). I have seen quite a bit of negative comments on CA from people flying these routes lately. And you know how it goes: when the seat is uncomfortable, the food suddenly becomes bad, the FA become grumpy etc. And westerners do not need much to start bashing anything Chinese.

Whether they want it or not, Chinese airlines are the "visit card" of new China. They have an obligation to be WAY ABOVE expectations. Every time a bunch of westerners with their heads full of stereotypes built by their country's propaganda machine get on a Chinese plane, their reaction should be: "Wow, what a great airline, I didn't expect that!".

See how Japan was synonym of cheap and bad quality in the 60's and how now everything Japanese is supposed to be top notch. This is how you turn the tide.

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