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chrisnh
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Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:35 pm

When I was a kid I thought of Philadelphia as so much bigger than Boston...more people in the city proper, and more in the metro areas. Today that is still so.

Since 2012 when JAL came in with non-stop 787s to Tokyo, Boston has been on a well-documented roll. Next year, KLM and Korean.

So why isn't PHL seeing a similar trajectory? Both Boston and Philadelphia are culturally and educationally rich, and there's no lack of business in either city.

Is it (A) because EWR is too close by; (B) because AA has a lockjaw fortress there, or some other reason?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:47 pm

Since when is Philly an educational and biotech hub?
And last time I checked, New Jersey seems to become a "failed state" thanks to endless corruption, skyrocketing taxes, a huge budget deficit, huge underfunded pensions, and a net outflow of residents to boot.
On top of that, Philly has the highest violent crime rate of the ten American cities with a population greater than 1 million residents,
Last edited by Dieuwer on Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:54 pm

We all know population is not the only factor.

Two incomparable cities. One is a fortress hub and other one is not at all dominated by a carrier. Of course Boston sees more airlines , PHL is AA dominated.


PHL will naturally see AA operate the European services as it's a fortress hub and dominated by one airline.

PHL has An amazing offering to Europe have you seen AAs summer 2018 offering. Any city would be happy to have that.

Also Boston's 1% ers have more money that helps offer Asian N/S demand and people willing to pay a premium
Last edited by slcdeltarumd11 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Deltabravo1123
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:56 pm

chrisnh wrote:
So why isn't PHL seeing a similar trajectory? Both Boston and Philadelphia are culturally and educationally rich, and there's no lack of business in either city.


Probably because people try to stay as far away as they can from the drivers here.

I would say because up until recently, Boston was really only a hub for jetBlue. And it was probably one of the largest cities in the US not listed as a legacy's hub. Because jetBlue is a mainly domestic airline, there was room for international airlines to move in. In Philadelphia, AA already flies to multiple destinations in Europe. That's why we don't see many European airlines here. Although Philadelphia has about 1.5 million more people, I must say that Boston is a much more desirable city to visit. And with all of the colleges and universities in Boston, a lot of international traffic will be headed there instead.
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:00 pm

PHL as everyone knows is sandwiched between JFK EWR and IAD so a lot I leakages for cheaper flights. Boston has no competition from any another city really. PHL one day will get more foreign airlines slowly but surely more than likely from OW
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:16 pm

The per capital income in Boston is 50-75% higher than that of Philadelphia. Wealth means good jobs and more international travel demand
 
bridge29
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Since when is Philly an educational and biotech hub?
And last time I checked, New Jersey seems to become a "failed state" thanks to endless corruption, skyrocketing taxes, a huge budget deficit, huge underfunded pensions, and a net outflow of residents to boot.
On top of that, Philly has the highest violent crime rate of the ten American cities with a population greater than 1 million residents,


This is quite obviously a trash post the likes of which drags down this forum's reputation, but let's correct a few things.

Philadelphia has one of the largest collections of Universities in the U.S., including one Ivy League School (Penn) and the well-regarded "Little Ivies" (Swarthmore, Haverford, Bryn Mawr).

New Jersey, while not my personal cup of tea, continues to grow in population thanks to immigration, but lest we not forget the vast majority of New Jersey's population lives closer to EWR so not even sure what the point is other than your lack of geographic knowledge.

Also, crime is irrelevant to airports or airlines.
 
ILG2BUR
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:37 pm

It is not true that NJ population is decreasing. You misunderstood that article. Yes, 2m may be leaving, but more are arriving. Simply check wikipedia for census results. 9m and climbing.

...not that that is really the point here, other than to bash a place you might not like.


Dieuwer wrote:
bridge29 wrote:
New Jersey, while not my personal cup of tea, continues to grow in population thanks to immigration, but lest we not forget the vast majority of New Jersey's population lives closer to EWR so not even sure what the point is other than your lack of geographic knowledge.

Also, crime is irrelevant to airports or airlines.


FACT: New Jersey is LOSING population. Between 2005 and 2014, the state lost 2 million residents. And it still continues...

https://www.northjersey.com/story/money ... /96108416/
http://newjersey.news12.com/story/38781 ... good-thing
 
bridge29
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:41 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
bridge29 wrote:
New Jersey, while not my personal cup of tea, continues to grow in population thanks to immigration, but lest we not forget the vast majority of New Jersey's population lives closer to EWR so not even sure what the point is other than your lack of geographic knowledge.

Also, crime is irrelevant to airports or airlines.


FACT: New Jersey is LOSING population. Between 2005 and 2014, the state lost 2 million residents. And it still continues...

https://www.northjersey.com/story/money ... /96108416/
http://newjersey.news12.com/story/38781 ... good-thing

Oh, and Philly is #48 in the list of 50 worst cities to live in: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... 782578001/
I don't see Boston mentioned ;)


Literally not a fact and all you had to do was type "New Jersey Population" into google. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... population

Don't really care what a USA Today ranking has to say about Philly.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:02 am

I think the OP asks an interesting question. What makes one airport more successful than another, in this case PHL vs BOS.

I think people overplay the population growing vs shrinking. If growth wa so important, PHX would be putting both PHL and BOS to shame and growing like mad. General population acts somewhatly successfully as a surrogate for business travel, which is what airlines really want to grow with. To make that work, you really need the businesses, and the type of businesses that travel in particular. Population that travels on its own, is based on leisure and personal and in both cases the traveler usually likes to find a good deal unless they are filthy wealthy. Filling the back of the plane is much less interesting to airlines than filling the front with paying passengers.

In my opinion, both cities have solid large populations and business bases. BOS has a heated low cost battle and PHL has an incumbent legacy megahub. I suspect the fare wars of Boston are causing the rapid growth that isn’t occurring at PHL because AA is strong enough there to control the market. BOS is recapturing International travel leakage from NYC, especially the lower fare variety. PHL suffers international low fare leakage to NYC, and some degree Washington.
 
SaudiClipper80
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:23 am

As was mentioned above, Philadelphia has an educational complex worth envy. In addition to the schools already mentioned, Philadelphia has both Drexel and Temple Universities. The biggest problem is Newark Airport to the north and BWI to the south. This makes Philadelphia dependent upon its own population and the Main Line suburbs. The inner city has many serious problems, especially when away from the downtown hub. So O/D traffic is less and American, which is definitely not my favorite airline, has a very strong hub, limiting transfers.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:30 am

PHL has a ton international service. More than it should because its a major AA hub.

Of course Boston has more carriers because they have no dominent carrier.

Close this topic its comparing apples to oranges and just making people in a pissing matching for no reason of which is "better" :) . Literally nothing in common except both being in the Northeast.

If you add up how much international service AA offers out of PHL i bet you its more than BOS. It just doesn't have the variety of carriers(which we covered why)
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:35 am

The OP has raised an excellent question and no true answers. There are great educational institutional institutions in both BOS and PHL. If PHL were that good, barring QR and BA there are no OW partners benefiting from AA feed. In retrospect, BOS has a good OW carrier network and if you add up JL, CX, IB, LAN that’s a solid presence. It does beg the obvious question that BOS has a solid carriee performance and can work with marginal AA feeds!
 
lat41
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:36 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Since when is Philly an educational and biotech hub?
And last time I checked, New Jersey seems to become a "failed state" thanks to endless corruption, skyrocketing taxes, a huge budget deficit, huge underfunded pensions, and a net outflow of residents to boot.
On top of that, Philly has the highest violent crime rate of the ten American cities with a population greater than 1 million residents,

Took only a few posts for someone to bang their political drum. BOS way back in the 70s has BA PA TW SR AZ EI LH (PHL was a one stop through plane to FRA). It was in a strategic location on the great circle track and back then it was BOS JFK ORD and LAX SFO and SEA along with ANC for the Pacific stuff PHL, sandwiched in between BOS and NY was not really in that East Coast mix nor was the WAS area. The trend continues.
 
iyerhari
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:39 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
PHL has a ton international service. More than it should because its a major AA hub.

Close this topic its comparing apples to oranges and just making people in a pissing matching for no reason of which is "better" :) . Literally nothing in common except both being in the Northeast.

If you add up how much international service AA offers out of PHL i bet you its more than BOS. It just doesn't have the variety of carriers(which we covered why)

PHL is way behind BOS in total pax, international pax and not to quote the number of destinations served from BOS vs PHL.
 
stlgph
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:58 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
The per capital income in Boston is 50-75% higher than that of Philadelphia. Wealth means good jobs and more international travel demand


Too bad you left out the cost of living.
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APettyJ
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:18 am

After reading about BOS latest score on KE service, and noting that PHL has a larger Korean as well as Chinese population than BOS, has a large pharma and education complex, I wonder when PHL will score an Asian route of its own. It was even mentioned in the BOS KE thread that there are Penn students whose families don't care about price when sending their kids to BOS to connect home. I wonder why AA doesn't do more to have those students come through their primary EC hub.

Myself, I've been looking to fly to Davao from PHL. One itinerary that keeps coming up has me flying through BOS and HKG via CX. Awaiting the startup of DOH-DVO service that has been announced by QR, which would allow me to fly one airline PHL-DVO.
 
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c933103
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Re: Boston v. Philadelphia

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:38 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
So why isn't PHL seeing a similar trajectory? Both Boston and Philadelphia are culturally and educationally rich, and there's no lack of business in either city.


Probably because people try to stay as far away as they can from the drivers here.

I would say because up until recently, Boston was really only a hub for jetBlue. And it was probably one of the largest cities in the US not listed as a legacy's hub. Because jetBlue is a mainly domestic airline, there was room for international airlines to move in. In Philadelphia, AA already flies to multiple destinations in Europe. That's why we don't see many European airlines here. Although Philadelphia has about 1.5 million more people, I must say that Boston is a much more desirable city to visit. And with all of the colleges and universities in Boston, a lot of international traffic will be headed there instead.

but if I counted correctly, destination flown by AA and other carriers from PHL to other airports are still about one forth less than number BOS airport destinations
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