AMS18C36C wrote:

Garuda used to operate CGK-AMS-LGW before operating CGK-LHR. Any chance of them adding the LGW-tag from AMS again?

I don't think so. In this article (in Dutch) it says Amsterdam will be their sole gateway to Europe. KLM will be their feeder for flights to the rest of Europe including London (Heathrow).

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... tot-europa

This is logical given that KLM and Garuda are both SkyTeam partners. Also there are big historical ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia, up to 1949 it used to be a Dutch colony. There are still a lot of Indonesians in the Netherlands and the other way around. This is not the case for the UK, which hardly has any historical ties with Indonesia.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

AMS18C36C wrote:

Garuda used to operate CGK-AMS-LGW before operating CGK-LHR. Any chance of them adding the LGW-tag from AMS again?

I don't think so. In this article (in Dutch) it says Amsterdam will be their sole gateway to Europe. KLM will be their feeder for flights to the rest of Europe including London (Heathrow).

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... tot-europa

This is logical given that KLM and Garuda are both SkyTeam partners. Also there are big historical ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia, up to 1949 it used to be a Dutch colony. There are still a lot of Indonesians in the Netherlands and the other way around. This is not the case for the UK, which hardly has any historical ties with Indonesia.

It’s a shame GA went big too soon, with some smaller 789s in a 2 class config, they could have built up a bigger long haul hub - if CGK improves its transit experience also. I’m surprised CDG,AMS,LHR couldn’t have worked. Especially if feed traffic from AU was captured also. The stop in SIN never helped.

smi0006 wrote:

I’m surprised CDG,AMS,LHR couldn’t have worked. Especially if feed traffic from AU was captured also.

Amsterdam does work as that's the one destination they'll maintain. Or put otherwise, they're shifting their flight from Heathrow to Amsterdam. This is logical because they do have a partner in Amsterdam (KLM) and they don't have a partner at Heathrow.

It's not only GA that does not fly to London by October but fellow Asian airline such as MF, 3U, D7, HX, and most other airline don't even fly to London too. So I bet GA is now following these that do not fly to London now. Hopefully GA and these airlines return or fly to London soon

jodieellis wrote:

It's not only GA that does not fly to London by October but fellow Asian airline such as MF, 3U, D7, HX, and most other airline don't even fly to London too. So I bet GA is now following these that do not fly to London now. Hopefully GA and these airlines return or fly to London soon

Hey, London is not the centre of the Universe! It may be a very important hub connecting much of the world, but not all countries or capitals need service to London. The centre of the world for Indonesia is surely Jakarta, and Garuda's network must reflect that. If Garuda maintains a link to Europe at AMS, that's enough, no need for loss-making routes to other European destinations, just let KLM provide the local connections in Europe. Ditto the other airlines you mention by airline code - most of which I do not recognise!

sassiciai wrote:

jodieellis wrote:

It's not only GA that does not fly to London by October but fellow Asian airline such as MF, 3U, D7, HX, and most other airline don't even fly to London too. So I bet GA is now following these that do not fly to London now. Hopefully GA and these airlines return or fly to London soon

Ditto the other airlines you mention by airline code - most of which I do not recognise!

HX = Hong Kong Airlines
3U = Sichuan Airlines
D7 = AirAsia X
MF = Xiamen Airlines

jodieellis wrote:

It's not only GA that does not fly to London by October but fellow Asian airline such as MF, 3U, D7, HX, and most other airline don't even fly to London too. So I bet GA is now following these that do not fly to London now. Hopefully GA and these airlines return or fly to London soon

But those airlines that you have quoted are not national flag carriers such as Garuda Indonesia so slightly more insignificant

D7 Air Asia X have already tried and failed London (STN and LGW) and that has already been discussed in previous threads on a.net.

HX Hong Kong Airlines have previously flown an all business class A330 from HKG to LGW that only lasted for approximately 6 months in 2012, that also failed.

With the recent expansion of China-UK links I am very confident that MF Xiamen Airlines and 3U Sichuan Airlines will both be flying into LHR within the next 12 months.

Garuda Indonesia initially commenced operations to LGW in June 1981 and continued to do so until 2003. Emirates had already stolen the market between the United Kingdom and Indonesia by the time Garuda resumed London operations four years ago and for the small market that remained it wasn't really feasible for them to carry on with a link to LHR and it's more plausible for them to consolidate at AMS for obvious reasons that have already been discussed.

Others have mentioned that GA should have remained at LGW rather than transferring to LHR but in all honesty and I hate to say it but I think that the same consequences would be the same.

It's a shame though that Garuda are leaving the United Kingdom and in particular LHR as I can honestly say that some of my best flying experiences have been with them.

It will be interesting to see if British Airways did eventually resume flights Jakarta, not saying that they will but non the less be interesting if they did announce it as there expansion going East has been very lacklustre over the years.

jodieellis wrote:

sassiciai wrote:

jodieellis wrote:

It's not only GA that does not fly to London by October but fellow Asian airline such as MF, 3U, D7, HX, and most other airline don't even fly to London too. So I bet GA is now following these that do not fly to London now. Hopefully GA and these airlines return or fly to London soon

Ditto the other airlines you mention by airline code - most of which I do not recognise!

HX = Hong Kong Airlines
3U = Sichuan Airlines
D7 = AirAsia X
MF = Xiamen Airlines

D7 will back to the London market when they have suitable aircraft. HX will also like to fly to London but the problem currently faced by its (former? not really sure as seems like there's a trustee deal or whatever that currently cut off their connections) parent group HNA seems to be preventing them from making further expansions according to plan. And there are many other HNA groups airlines flying to/will fly to LON anyway.

Edit: Well, if the economics doesn't work out, then it would still be a logical thing for airlines to do to save money as airlines are companies and their duties are to make money not connecting dots on the map.

It's now reported that GA might not be terminating LHR as a destination at all, instead moving the route to a one stop via AMS. However this same article indicates (albeit in italics at its head) that this could actually be using a codeshare partner, probably KL:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... ndon-route

It could be that the tweet GA sent that this article references was written incorrectly. Thus there's much confusion over what's really happening here, so if anyone can shed any light on this, it'd be good to hear inside info.

TheLion wrote:

It's now reported that GA might not be terminating LHR as a destination at all, instead moving the route to a one stop via AMS. However this same article indicates (albeit in italics at its head) that this could actually be using a codeshare partner, probably KL:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... ndon-route

It could be that the tweet GA sent that this article references was written incorrectly. Thus there's much confusion over what's really happening here, so if anyone can shed any light on this, it'd be good to hear inside info.

GA already codeshares on KLM to/from London and Manchester:

- KL 1009 AMS-LHR - GA 9490 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1017 AMS-LHR - GA 9081 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1019 AMS-LHR - GA 9238 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1021 AMS-LHR - GA 9236 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1027 AMS-LHR - GA 9078 Garuda Indonesia

- KL 1073 AMS-MAN - GA 9018 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1079 AMS-MAN - GA 9760 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1081 AMS-MAN - GA 9474 Garuda Indonesia
- KL 1083 AMS-MAN - GA 9476 Garuda Indonesia

TheLion wrote:

It's now reported that GA might not be terminating LHR as a destination at all, instead moving the route to a one stop via AMS. However this same article indicates (albeit in italics at its head) that this could actually be using a codeshare partner, probably KL:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... ndon-route

It could be that the tweet GA sent that this article references was written incorrectly. Thus there's much confusion over what's really happening here, so if anyone can shed any light on this, it'd be good to hear inside info.

A dummy booking for January shows the option as using a KLM flight from Heathrow to Amsterdam and then picking up Garuda from there.

The last CGK-LHR flight is on 27 October.

Garuda has now opened reservations for non-stop CGK-LHR-CGK flights re-commencing 27th November 2018.

GA086 CGK1205 – 2000LHR 773 246
GA087 LHR2155 – 1910+1CGK 773 246

Source: Airline Route

B742 wrote:

Garuda has now opened reservations for non-stop CGK-LHR-CGK flights re-commencing 27th November 2018.

GA086 CGK1205 – 2000LHR 773 246
GA087 LHR2155 – 1910+1CGK 773 246

Source: Airline Route

Flights are on sale until 30 March 2019, however on Amadeus the flights will continue into S19. Seems odd to bring it back. Let's see if they still have it in a weeks time

Probably do not want to loose their Heathrow slots, three times a week nonstop is better then the sometimes one stops over Singapore.

Don't underestimate the political aspects of operating or stopping LHR-CGK, I'm pretty certain that the decisions are not just down to the airline's management but have all sorts of other influencers.

This is just a joke. How passengers can rely on such service and short notice re service termination s a mystery to me. Frankly, I am gobsmacked that Garuda has earned a 5 star rating. Just more of the same nonsense those of us living in this region and travelling regularly deal with every day. I wouldn't fly them to LHR if you paid me. Once burned twice shy.

The runway situation at CGK has been resolved?

For me, Denpasar would be a better route to launch. There would still be a market for connecting passengers to Melbourne, and would attract to the growing leisure market in Bali

This is stupid. Why don't they just do it as a seasonal service. Gobsmacked is an understatement, as stated above, how they earned their 5 star rating, I don't know. Philippine Airlines may not be the best but at least they managed to sustain LHR since 2014, maybe they deserve Garuda's 5th star even if I wouldn't fly PAL myself.

Remember they just got a new CEO.

Likely new boss man has his own ideas of grandeur.

Oh for Pete’s sake, many countrys are less developed than the UK and the west, and as a result, their flag carriers are actual flag carriers and used to raise the profile of the nation. The notion of flying to simply serve the balance sheet is equally wrong headed. Hence some routes are and always will be flown as loss makers. The trick is not to have too many....
Connecting Indonesia to London does appear to be loss making, the B77W is way too big for what is at best a B788 route IMHO. I would remind many of the the CEO brigade that back in the day, Pan Am and BOAC did exactly this sort of thing.

Exactly and well put Skip and as always written perfectly with your usual dose of common sense

mercure1 wrote:

Remember they just got a new CEO.

Likely new boss man has his own ideas of grandeur.

Is James Hogan the new CEO of Garuda?

Breathe wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Remember they just got a new CEO.

Likely new boss man has his own ideas of grandeur.

Is James Hogan the new CEO of Garuda?

Obviously not the case but if you are interested in who the President, Director and CEO of Garuda Indonesia is it's a gentleman under the name of ''I Gusti Nghura Askhara Danadi Putra''.

No matter what Garuda did, they will never succeed due to stupid idiot indonesian government. Look how they build the new airport in Indonesia, very stupid layout, design, system, etc. Jakarta itself is a cancer city, nobody is going to Jakarta for holiday. Nothing to see.... all you will get is a hot air and traffic jam. Of course, CGK-LHR will never work.
Maybe doing DPS - LHR has a much better survival, tourist only go to Bali and Lombok. Should have just concentrate making a huge bali airport and put GA in Bali as their secondary hub. CGK - LHR was a joke and I was right. GA also was a joke when they made a First Class. Should have just follow like EVA AIR,... Business - Y+ and Y. Now GA elimating their F seat from 6 Aircraft, down to just 2 aircraft. SIn - AMS by SQ, SQ even didnt have F seat to AMS. Like I have said, nothing is correct. The only Garuda can be proud of is their cabin crew service....and for that single part only I agree. The rest they just not good.

But Jakarta to London is about connecting two major capital cities and opening up Indonesia to the wider world not necessarily about bringing tourists to the country it's more about trade although obviously there are tourists using the connection but this route is all about prestige and having a presence in London and is aimed at opening up new markets l, if those wishing to travel on to the likes of Denpasar there are loads of flight options available from Jakarta.

If Garuda had totally abandoned London it would mean that they would be the only airline in south east Asia that didn't fly directly to London, again flying this route is about trade and connections but above all prestige something that many long haul airlines do or have done.

I welcome this news that Garuda Indonesia are intending on resuming Jakarta to London as two of my best ever flights were taken with the airline.

skipness1E wrote:

Oh for Pete’s sake, many countrys are less developed than the UK and the west, and as a result, their flag carriers are actual flag carriers and used to raise the profile of the nation. The notion of flying to simply serve the balance sheet is equally wrong headed. Hence some routes are and always will be flown as loss makers. The trick is not to have too many....
Connecting Indonesia to London does appear to be loss making, the B77W is way too big for what is at best a B788 route IMHO. I would remind many of the the CEO brigade that back in the day, Pan Am and BOAC did exactly this sort of thing.

Very well said. Much of the above is GREATLY misunderstood or not known by the majority on here.

And Lgw would have served their needs perfectly well until you build in the snobbery factor of wanting to fly from Lhr because it sounds more grand.

Looks like the routing will now be Jakarta - Singapore - London Heathrow - Denpasar according to local press. Route commencing 15 November and operated with A330-300. Not on airline website yet...this airline doesn't seem able to make up its mind what its doing:
https://en.tempo.co/read/news/2018/11/1 ... -to-Reopen
https://bisnis.tempo.co/read/1144987/15 ... rta-london
http://www.beritasatu.com/bisnis/521641 ... nbali.html
Hopefully there website will update soon to let us know what they are doing

So going by what's been quoted would that mean that the return flight from Danpaser to LHR be via Jakarta and Singapore?

Garuda would be better off offering two flights a week to Jakarta direct and two flights a week to Jakarta via Denpasar giving the airline four direct flights a week from LHR to Indonesia.

The Singapore stop is it really necessary, hasn't Jakarta Airport dealt with it's runway issues yet?

SeanM1997 wrote:

Looks like the routing will now be Jakarta - Singapore - London Heathrow - Denpasar according to local press. Route commencing 15 November and operated with A330-300. Not on airline website yet...this airline doesn't seem able to make up its mind what its doing:
https://en.tempo.co/read/news/2018/11/1 ... -to-Reopen
https://bisnis.tempo.co/read/1144987/15 ... rta-london
http://www.beritasatu.com/bisnis/521641 ... nbali.html
Hopefully there website will update soon to let us know what they are doing

SIN-LHR on the A330-300? That’s pushing things...

3x weekly flight and a 2000 arrival time in LHR likely killed their chances of garnering any high-yielding traffic

Ridiculous timings with a 20.00 arrival into LHR let alone the airlines thinking in flying a A333 non stop to Singapore and onwards to Jakarta or Danpaser even.

Garuda were at LGW for nearly 25 years and when they returned to the London market a few years ago they should have remained at LGW rather than moving to LHR where there position has been rather sporadic to say the least.

Cunard wrote:

But Jakarta to London is about connecting two major capital cities and opening up Indonesia to the wider world not necessarily about bringing tourists to the country it's more about trade although obviously there are tourists using the connection but this route is all about prestige and having a presence in London and is aimed at opening up new markets l, if those wishing to travel on to the likes of Denpasar there are loads of flight options available from Jakarta.

If Garuda had totally abandoned London it would mean that they would be the only airline in south east Asia that didn't fly directly to London, again flying this route is about trade and connections but above all prestige something that many long haul airlines do or have done.

I welcome this news that Garuda Indonesia are intending on resuming Jakarta to London as two of my best ever flights were taken with the airline.

Um, plenty of airlines in SE Asia don't fly to London. Including the biggest one in Indonesia (Lion Air)

If trade and connections London- Jakarta is so important, why doesn't BA fly the route to open up a new market & get the prestige?

Plenty of airlines in SE asia are not state owned flag carriers with a different set of responsibilities than a simple P&L.

BA are an IAG subsidiary with no interest in the prestige of the British state, in that regard, you are comparing apples with oranges.

Oh and Indonesia’s carriers remain EU access restricted and subject to spot checks due to safety concerns- rightly so

skipness1E wrote:

Plenty of airlines in SE asia are not state owned flag carriers with a different set of responsibilities than a simple P&L.

BA are an IAG subsidiary with no interest in the prestige of the British state, in that regard, you are comparing apples with oranges.

True - but Conrad didn't limit it to state owned flag carriers in SE Asia. Even then, of the 11 SE Asian countries, 3 have flag carrier airlines that do not fly to London (Laos/ Cambodia/ Burma), and 1 doesn't have an airline (Timor Leste)

The economics of the flight are poor, and GA are losing money. Obviously political pressure prestige to keep it going... Which in my view is sad

SIN-LHR will be very marginal with the A330-300, slight waft of a headwind en route and you'd going to be dumping pax / cargo or making a fuel stop. LHR-DPS on the return is many hundreds of miles beyond the range of the A330-300 so, unless they have some kind of magic fuel formula, it's going to be taking a major payload hit.

Perhaps there has been some confusion, the A330-200 should be capable of operating these sectors comfortably.

I could fix this problems.

1. 10-abreast on their B777-300ER. This would add 30 extra economy class seat into their B777-300ER.
2. No more First Class for Corrupt Politicians.
3. Small number of Business Class seat. Majority of Indonesians can't even afford premium economy.
4. Lower the damn ticket Price! Their price is one of the highest. Knowing that majority of Local Indonesians always buy the cheapest tickets. And Australians and Kiwis have cheaper and better services with Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar.
5. Cutback on services to balance the budget for lower yield profit.
6. At least a daily flight to LHR, not 3x a week.
7. Better connections for current Australians Flights.
8. Fly to Auckland, Brisbane and Adelaide if possible to tap into those Kangaroo routes. Ain't that many Indonesians in London unlike Amsterdam.

OR:
1. Use A330-200 instead. Since Garuda have light configs for their A330-200.
2. Discounted business class and lower economy class.
3. The yield would be hella low.

OR:
1. Wait for the 251t A330-900neo for better fuel efficiency.
2. Discounted business class and lower economy class.

eta unknown wrote:

Actually I was born/raised in the US and I never once heard the word "shutter" used in the "close" sense. I have been seeing it more of late, but I thought it was some British English concoction. Either way, I hate the word.

The Merriam-Webster definition of the word "shutter" as a verb:

1 : to close by or as if by shutters
corporations shuttering their production plants
Date of first known use: 1826, in the meaning defined at sense 1

Perhaps your acquaintance with the English language needs some broadening?

The answer is not more capacity, lower fares or low yielding connecting pax - it just equates to trashed yields. This was the mistake made by many legacy carriers in response to the rise of LCCs.

Garuda need to differentiate their product and grow margin. Don't join a race to the bottom and compete on price - leave the no-thrills mass-market to Lion Air, Air Asia, Citilink etc...

PlymSpotter wrote:

The answer is not more capacity, lower fares or low yielding connecting pax - it just equates to trashed yields. This was the mistake made by many legacy carriers in response to the rise of LCCs.

Garuda need to differentiate their product and grow margin. Don't join a race to the bottom and compete on price - leave the no-thrills mass-market to Lion Air, Air Asia, Citilink etc...

Lol, they can't compete for LHR. ME3 have better services, lower prices, better connections, and better Geographical locations for LHR. Jakarta doesn't have that apart from connecting flights from Eastern Australia and New Zealand which mean they would be competing with ME3, SQ, MH, TG, VN, CX, QF, BA, VA and VS on kangaroo routes.

The populations in Indonesia also doesn't support high yield for them. There's a valid reason why LCC like Lion air have the biggest market shares in Indonesia.

You're demonstrating my point (lol?)

They should not compete with the likes of the ME3, or any other carrier. Garuda apparently (if the announcement is to be believed) has something they do not - non-stop flights to Indonesia, and one stop service to multiple regional cities in Indonesia which otherwise would be two or more stops. This can and would command a premium, if you don't flood the market with too much capacity and therefore have to deeply discount seats. It is also a compelling reason to operate into Jakarta and not Bali - don't chase the low yielding pax.

There is enough traffic between Indonesia and the UK to fill a daily direct flight at a reasonable overall yield. We're not talking high yield, just not low yield.

Re. the overnight stop in Jakarta - it's actually a great place to spend a night as you can get a 5* hotel for about £30 and a Mercedes limousine to/from the airport costs about £10. But I understand most people wouldn't want to do that, they just want to get where they're going. Anyway, the Australia-UK market is saturated and the fares are low. Jakarta and Indonesia are great destinations, but they are far from the UK and not really well-known enough (apart from Bali) to justify the flight. Maybe the economics will change in the future if the airline acquires a smaller, lighter aircraft that can do the route.

Anyway, it looks like they've changed their minds... the route is restarting from the 27th of this month:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -nov-2018/

peterinlisbon wrote:

Anyway, it looks like they've changed their minds... the route is restarting from the 27th of this month:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -nov-2018/

This link and also Garuda webpage both show Boeing 777, not A330, will be the aircraft on this rotation.

Plenty of seats on the 773, 26 Business and 367 Economy (393 in total), this is not for high fare-paying passengers.

In comparison, BA operates the 4-cabin 773 into SIN with only 297 seats.

Change of config, LHR was getting the two remaining B77Ws with F !

PlymSpotter wrote:

You're demonstrating my point (lol?)

They should not compete with the likes of the ME3, or any other carrier. Garuda apparently (if the announcement is to be believed) has something they do not - non-stop flights to Indonesia, and one stop service to multiple regional cities in Indonesia which otherwise would be two or more stops. This can and would command a premium, if you don't flood the market with too much capacity and therefore have to deeply discount seats. It is also a compelling reason to operate into Jakarta and not Bali - don't chase the low yielding pax.

There is enough traffic between Indonesia and the UK to fill a daily direct flight at a reasonable overall yield. We're not talking high yield, just not low yield.

Trouble is Indonesia is huge - from one end to the other is the same as Dublin to Moscow. And it is more decentralised than other SE Asian countries, so traffic is not all to/ from one or two large cities, and JKT has not developed as a hub, but to serve the huge point to point domestic market (80% of GA passengers are domestic) Oddly enough, Bali & Makassar are more hub orientated (people transfer there for flights to the more sparsely populated East) Most EU carriers have failed to fill a flight to JKT with reasonable yield - only KLM (with large VFR traffic) manages it I think.