StTim
Posts: 3421
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed May 22, 2019 6:29 pm

jagraham wrote:
zeke wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Polot gave the reference in post #789. I chose not to duplicate him. There are other reports that say the same thing, but since they say the same thing from the same source (GE), the other reports add very little. Please refer to post #789.


Sorry that does not say what you claimed.

Again to be explicit, where is the reference to your claim the GE9X is 5% better than the Trent XWB

I was in error when I said both engines first flew at the same time.


Stop it Zeke. My statement is that GE claims the GE9X will be 5% better than the best existing engine (which is the Trent XWB). I have always stated it as a GE claim, awaiting flight test results.

Like any marketing claim - the wording is ambiguous. I have never seen a statement where GE directly refers to the Trent XWB. I may be wrong but I haven't ever seen that. Every statement could have been read to mean that but could be read other ways. Classic marketing used by all companies. Hence all have the most efficient etc. Well they do on their own narrow terms which they never state. :)
 
tomcat
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed May 22, 2019 6:42 pm

jagraham wrote:
zeke wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Polot gave the reference in post #789. I chose not to duplicate him. There are other reports that say the same thing, but since they say the same thing from the same source (GE), the other reports add very little. Please refer to post #789.


Sorry that does not say what you claimed.

Again to be explicit, where is the reference to your claim the GE9X is 5% better than the Trent XWB

I was in error when I said both engines first flew at the same time.


Stop it Zeke. My statement is that GE claims the GE9X will be 5% better than the best existing engine (which is the Trent XWB). I have always stated it as a GE claim, awaiting flight test results.


Jagraham, is this the GE claim you're referring to:
"It’s designed to deliver a 10% improved aircraft fuel burn versus the GE90-115B-powered 777-300ER and a 5% improved specific fuel consumption versus any twin-aisle engine available"

It's just not clear to me when this claim was published. Is it before or after the XWB97 became "available"?

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... aft-engine
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed May 22, 2019 6:52 pm

The claim remains on the website in the present tense today, with XWB-97s in service for multiple airlines, so I think it's fair to say GE is claiming the GE9x will beat the XWB-97 by 5% or more.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed May 22, 2019 11:27 pm

jagraham wrote:
]Stop it Zeke. My statement is that GE claims the GE9X will be 5% better than the best existing engine (which is the Trent XWB). I have always stated it as a GE claim, awaiting flight test results.


No you said 5% better than the Trent XWB, GE did not say that.

Let me cast your mind back to what they said about the GEnx, “15% fuel burn improvement over the comparable wide-body engines”. They didn’t mean the Trent 1000, they were referring to their CF6.

I think they are referring to 5% TSFC over the GEnx. GE simply do not have the Trent XWB data, RR did not even have the Trent XWB 97 data at the time.

The other data point is knowing how much better the Trent XWB is over GE90-115, we see 25% lower fuel flow rates in service today. If the GE9X was as you claim 5% better than the Trent XWB, GE would have said the GE9X is 30% better than GE90-115. But they never said that.


Also frepe analysis of the 105klb engine had around a 5% higher TOC fuel burn compared to the Trent XWB-97. (17,392×0.503×2)

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=771715
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 12:19 am

zeke wrote:
No you said 5% better than the Trent XWB, GE did not say that.


GE says that.

zeke wrote:
I think they are referring to 5% TSFC over the GEnx. GE simply do not have the Trent XWB data, RR did not even have the Trent XWB 97 data at the time.


The claim, taken directly from GE's website today (and in present tense), is:

GE wrote:
It’s designed to deliver a 10% improved aircraft fuel burn versus the GE90-115B-powered 777-300ER and a 5% improved specific fuel consumption versus any twin-aisle engine available.


There is no doubt that the XWB-97 is available. So they are claiming a 5% TSFC advantage over the XWB-97, along with every other widebody engine now available. No doubt the 5% advantage is under the best possible set of assumptions, but it's a pretty unambiguous claim.

The other data point is knowing how much better the Trent XWB is over GE90-115, we see 25% lower fuel flow rates in service today. If the GE9X was as you claim 5% better than the Trent XWB, GE would have said the GE9X is 30% better than GE90-115. But they never said that.


The claim is about TSFC, not overall fuel flow of the engine. This is a bigger engine powering a bigger, heavier aircraft. The whole question behind this order is whether the better wing and greater payload range can make up for the disadvantage created by the additional airframe weight. You're not wrong to make a 346 vs. 77W analogy, and GE better hope it's right about fuel consumption if the 778 is to last longer in the market than the 346 did.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 12:40 am

seabosdca wrote:
There is no doubt that the XWB-97 is available. So they are claiming a 5% TSFC advantage over the XWB-97, along with every other widebody engine now available. No doubt the 5% advantage is under the best possible set of assumptions, but it's a pretty unambiguous claim.


Not at the time they first made the comment, the new XWB 97 had not even flown. BTW they still have similar claims about the GEnx being 15% better than other engines in the market on their website which is also baseless, it only referred to the CF6.

GE never has said the GE9X has a 5% better TSFC over the Trent XWB 97, like I said above that would mean it is 30% better than the GE90-115B which is pure fantasy today, 2025 would be the timeframe for that, engine technology has been improving as a fairly predictable rate (around 0.5% per year). And does not match their other claim of 10% better than the GE90-115.

PS I used frepes TOC TSFC and thrust required thhat I linked above to get the TOC FF to compare with the A350-1000 in service fuel flows. They show the GE9X has a 5% higher fuel flow.

PPS you will find articles which say the GE9X will be 15% better than the GE90-115, and the 77X 20% better than the 77W. That also does not point to 5% better TSFC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Pcoder
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:44 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 12:54 am

I'm thinking this discussion on fuel consumption is getting a bit out of hand. As some of these figures come from marketing, they can be comparing very odd combinations of engines to get the their figures. Marketing departments are probably not the best authority for these figures as they can lack some of the technical knowledge.

In the end of the day the engines are probably around the same efficiency, give or take a couple of percent.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1566
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 1:10 am

The XWB-97 is actually a step backwards from the XWB-84 in terms of design optimisation.

Reducing byass ratio and spinning the fan faster is the exact opposite thing you want to do to improve fuel efficiency.

Had the XWB-97 been a clean sheet design it would have had a bigger fan for that thrust level. The very small addition to the core of the 97 will only help offset the reduced bypass ratio and less than optimal fan speed.
 
jagraham
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 1:32 am

tomcat wrote:
jagraham wrote:
zeke wrote:

Sorry that does not say what you claimed.

Again to be explicit, where is the reference to your claim the GE9X is 5% better than the Trent XWB

I was in error when I said both engines first flew at the same time.


Stop it Zeke. My statement is that GE claims the GE9X will be 5% better than the best existing engine (which is the Trent XWB). I have always stated it as a GE claim, awaiting flight test results.


Jagraham, is this the GE claim you're referring to:
"It’s designed to deliver a 10% improved aircraft fuel burn versus the GE90-115B-powered 777-300ER and a 5% improved specific fuel consumption versus any twin-aisle engine available"

It's just not clear to me when this claim was published. Is it before or after the XWB97 became "available"?

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... aft-engine


i believe that the SFC claim was targeted at the XWB-84.
Regarding marketing, were GE to name the best engine, which at the time was the XWB-84, they would have to publicly admit that the XWB-84 was the best. So their corporate hubris would not allow them (GE) to specify what was clearly better; instead they said what you quoted. And that is what I am referring to.
There was another report (not a press release) where a GE executive said they would improve the GE9X to be better than any engine at EIS if competitive engines showed improvement. I haven't heard anything beyond that one report, and certainly nothing to say the GE9X was further improved to beat the XWB-97 by 5%. We shall see once Boeing starts flight tests . .
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1941
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 am

Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!
 
cpd
Posts: 5988
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 2:22 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Technically, they are all breaking the forum rules in that technical discussion is only supposed to be in the technical sub-forum.

But, I'm sure we are all thankful that it isn't another A-v-B back and forwards! Hence why nobody is complaining. :)
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 4:09 am

jagraham wrote:
Also, the fuel carried was quietly upped from just under 49000 gal to 52300 gal. This should make the current standard 777-8 Project Sunrise capable.

Was that to enhance performance, or counter higher than expected consumption, or mix of the two?
 
Mrakula
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:29 am

GE can claim anything they want, but truth is another point ;-)
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13109
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:49 am

Can't they simply reconfigure a 787 to do the job?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:50 am

keesje wrote:
Can't they simply reconfigure a 787 to do the job?

[email protected] would probably make it.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1750
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:58 am

JAAlbert wrote:
cpd wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Technically, they are all breaking the forum rules in that technical discussion is only supposed to be in the technical sub-forum.

But, I'm sure we are all thankful that it isn't another A-v-B back and forwards! Hence why nobody is complaining. :)


You of course are absolutely right -- how this topic didn't descend into an A vs. B flame fest is particularly shocking given that in fact project sunrise is indeed an A vs B contest! (Don't tell anyone).


The only planes that can even pretend to meet Joyce's pie in the sky requirements are the A350-1000 and the 777-8. Both planes are significantly different that whichever one is chosen based on Joyce having to compromise, the other one can't match it.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:03 am

RickNRoll wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
cpd wrote:

Technically, they are all breaking the forum rules in that technical discussion is only supposed to be in the technical sub-forum.

But, I'm sure we are all thankful that it isn't another A-v-B back and forwards! Hence why nobody is complaining. :)


You of course are absolutely right -- how this topic didn't descend into an A vs. B flame fest is particularly shocking given that in fact project sunrise is indeed an A vs B contest! (Don't tell anyone).


The only planes that can even pretend to meet Joyce's pie in the sky requirements are the A350-1000 and the 777-8. Both planes are significantly different that whichever one is chosen based on Joyce having to compromise, the other one can't match it.


Interested to know why you think it's pie in the sky ?
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:07 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Yeah, AJ is a Boeing guy pur-sang, so the B778 is already picked regardless of whether it has a 5% TFDSXSFC advantage or not.

The GE9X 5% SFC advantage, it's not specified at which phase of flight and what thrust settings.

If it would say Cruise TSFC it would be meaningful but it doesn't. It could be idle SFC for all we know.
Plus the A350XWB cruises faster, how about that?

Stop wasting your time on meaningless comparisons and start comparing meaningful parameters.
In this order, AJ's preference for Boeing weighs much much more than any fuel burn advantage that either model would have.
The width of the fuselage is also very relevant when talking about a premium heavy aircraft.
Which seats would fit better in which aircraft, etc...
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:33 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Yeah, AJ is a Boeing guy pur-sang, so the B778 is already picked regardless of whether it has a 5% TFDSXSFC advantage or not.

The GE9X 5% SFC advantage, it's not specified at which phase of flight and what thrust settings.

If it would say Cruise TSFC it would be meaningful but it doesn't. It could be idle SFC for all we know.
Plus the A350XWB cruises faster, how about that?

Stop wasting your time on meaningless comparisons and start comparing meaningful parameters.
In this order, AJ's preference for Boeing weighs much much more than any fuel burn advantage that either model would have.
The width of the fuselage is also very relevant when talking about a premium heavy aircraft.
Which seats would fit better in which aircraft, etc...


Ummmm, where is the evidence that Alan Joyce favours Boeing ? Or is this just some more of your make believe fantasy stuff ?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:04 am

RickNRoll wrote:
The only planes that can even pretend to meet Joyce's pie in the sky requirements are the A350-1000 and the 777-8. Both planes are significantly different that whichever one is chosen based on Joyce having to compromise, the other one can't match it.


The wildcard is RR Ultrafan which should start ground testing before the 778 and Sunrise first flight. Behind the scenes that engine MAY Or MAYNOT feature on re-engined A350/A380 around 2025. Airbus and RR signed an agreement in a April last year where Airbus will provide both nacelle and engine/aircraft integration architecture and technology enablers for Ultrafan.

Hearing this is something Airbus/RR then discussed with A380 operators in the lead up to the closure of the line A380 for new builds. They have been probing market feedback for a A380 Ultrafan conversion on a power by the hour basis. I could see that being attractive for Airbus as they would continue the after market support cash flow for minimum investment on their part.

The A380 today can operate SYD-DFW, Ultrafan should enable SYD-LHR with current QF A380 configuration. I would expect a 15% TSFC drop from the 2004 Trent 900 to a 2025 Ultrafan.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:22 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


^ This!

The cheerleading is annoying. It would be nice if we could all just have a normal discussion and learn from each other but it always degenerates into this mine-is-better-than-yours mess.

None of these aircraft and the engines powering (or that will power) them are bad. The technology in these marvelous machines are cutting edge and the best it's EVER been.

It is insulting and a disservice to the remarkable, highly-skilled Airbus/Boeing/RR/GE employees who have studied hard and work even harder everyday to make the seemingly impossible (getting hundreds of tons of 'stuff' efficiently and safely into the air every few seconds) possible, to be so hung up about - in the grand scheme of things - semi-/insignificant semantics.

Yeah, there will be 1% fuel efficiency here, 1% operational efficiency there, another 1% financial benefit over here compared with the competition. Does it really matter?

None of these aircraft really need saving from anyone here. And it's not as if any of the cheerleaders can even begin to have ANY impact of any of the plans and decisions and engineering progress being discussed here.

It is amusing (before it becomes annoying again) to watch members clutching at straws to achieve some weird dominance over other members. It is even more amusing (also, before it becomes annoying again) to watch as arguments, once so steadfastly upheld, change once a member's preferred manufacturer starts doing what the opposition once did...

QF - any airline - will choose what is best for their unique needs from the best that the OEMs have to offer regardless of what we prefer... so everyone just needs to grab a brown bag and do some breathing exercises, it will all be okay, I promise.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1750
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 11:37 am

NTLDaz wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:

You of course are absolutely right -- how this topic didn't descend into an A vs. B flame fest is particularly shocking given that in fact project sunrise is indeed an A vs B contest! (Don't tell anyone).


The only planes that can even pretend to meet Joyce's pie in the sky requirements are the A350-1000 and the 777-8. Both planes are significantly different that whichever one is chosen based on Joyce having to compromise, the other one can't match it.


Interested to know why you think it's pie in the sky ?


https://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-ceo-dia ... pectations

He has had to do it already. It depends on how grounded in reality he is now.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 12:39 pm

zeke wrote:

Hearing this is something Airbus/RR then discussed with A380 operators in the lead up to the closure of the line A380 for new builds. They have been probing market feedback for a A380 Ultrafan conversion on a power by the hour basis. I could see that being attractive for Airbus as they would continue the after market support cash flow for minimum investment on their part.

The A380 today can operate SYD-DFW, Ultrafan should enable SYD-LHR with current QF A380 configuration. I would expect a 15% TSFC drop from the 2004 Trent 900 to a 2025 Ultrafan.



Bravo! I nominate this for post of the year!

You've worked in fantastical reclamation of A380 for an airline that is disappointed in them, looking to fly the worlds longest route on a frame 1/2 of the size, 1/2 the capacity, with a high yield.
All while pendant-ally challenging GE's (admittedly nebulous) 5% improvement claim, but causally tossing out 15% TSFC drop for the future Ultrafan.

** I don't even disagree that hypothetical Ultrafan A380 could show 15% improvement, but how on earth can you pen this with a straight face in the "Project Sunrise context" ? How do you see RR taking on certification costs for a fading and mostly unwanted VLA? Does any of this really make sense to you?

Talk about throwing red meat out to the base!
You, my friend, have Chutzpah!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 1:09 pm

15% TFSC improvement over 20 years from the Trent 900 to the Ultrafan is in line with normal trends.

The Trent XWB-97 first flew only two years before the GE9X, 5% is too much in such a short period of time. To put that in context it took GE from 2002 to 2018 to beat the GE99-115 by their claimed 10%, that same rate would be 14.97% over 20 years.

RR is already testing Advance and Ultrafan components, some of it on Trent XWB frankengine. Under the agreement signed between RR and Airbus last year the installation and integration with the airfrane are for Airbus to fund.

I would think RR would be looking at a 80 klb range for the Ultrafan to cover the A330/A350/A380.

QF have suggested the Sunrise decision may influence the A380 replacement, e.g.

“He also allowed that the ultra-long range Project Sunrise jets “could be a good aircraft, if the product and the price is right”, to replace the airline’s flagship Airbus A380s.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jagraham
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 2:20 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
Can't they simply reconfigure a 787 to do the job?

[email protected] would probably make it.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Boeing is redoing the 788 to be built like the 789. Starting with the AA 787 order, with new 788s being delivered in 2020. https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... eet-411254

Boeing could get a 788LR for next to nothing by keeping the 789 wing, center box, and MLG intact, along with the 254t MTOW.

It would be too small for Project Sunrise, but flying 9000+ nm for 34000 gallons of fuel could do a lot for several airlines.

But Boeing has said nothing along these lines so far.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17905
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 2:50 pm

jagraham wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
Can't they simply reconfigure a 787 to do the job?

[email protected] would probably make it.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Boeing is redoing the 788 to be built like the 789. Starting with the AA 787 order, with new 788s being delivered in 2020. https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... eet-411254

Boeing could get a 788LR for next to nothing by keeping the 789 wing, center box, and MLG intact, along with the 254t MTOW.

It would be too small for Project Sunrise, but flying 9000+ nm for 34000 gallons of fuel could do a lot for several airlines.

But Boeing has said nothing along these lines so far.

I believe project sunrise is targeting more payload as you allude to. I agree with you in that other airlines would benefit. In particular, those airlines trying to capture premium traffic into less expensive slot airports. E.g., India to US West coast.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 2:51 pm

jagraham wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
Can't they simply reconfigure a 787 to do the job?

[email protected] would probably make it.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Boeing is redoing the 788 to be built like the 789. Starting with the AA 787 order, with new 788s being delivered in 2020. https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... eet-411254

Boeing could get a 788LR for next to nothing by keeping the 789 wing, center box, and MLG intact, along with the 254t MTOW.

It would be too small for Project Sunrise, but flying 9000+ nm for 34000 gallons of fuel could do a lot for several airlines.

But Boeing has said nothing along these lines so far.

I was under the impression that they were harmonising some parts but not increasing the weights.

I have run some numbers (as I do) and guess that the TOW would need to be about 256t with a 20ton load and 125t DOW (not sure if this is realistic).

Fred
Image
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 3:15 pm

Using the 787-9 center wing box and main gear on a 787-8 would significantly increase empty weight (think several tonnes). As with the ULR versions of the A350, a 787-8LR would be attractive for a very specific mission and uncompetitive with the regular 787-8 or -9 on shorter routes. On those routes, it would basically be like a “terrible teen” 788 trying to compete with a new-build one.

It may also require a new, taller vertical fin in order to preserve control authority in an engine-out situation at takeoff.

So I wouldn’t expect to see it unless there are, say, 50 orders. That’s a lot for a ULH specialty airplane.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4711
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:06 pm

zeke wrote:
The wildcard is RR Ultrafan which should start ground testing before the 778 and Sunrise first flight. Behind the scenes that engine MAY Or MAYNOT feature on re-engined A350/A380 around 2025. Airbus and RR signed an agreement in a April last year where Airbus will provide both nacelle and engine/aircraft integration architecture and technology enablers for Ultrafan.

Hearing this is something Airbus/RR then discussed with A380 operators in the lead up to the closure of the line A380 for new builds. They have been probing market feedback for a A380 Ultrafan conversion on a power by the hour basis. I could see that being attractive for Airbus as they would continue the after market support cash flow for minimum investment on their part.

The A380 today can operate SYD-DFW, Ultrafan should enable SYD-LHR with current QF A380 configuration. I would expect a 15% TSFC drop from the 2004 Trent 900 to a 2025 Ultrafan.


It is not really a wildcard at all in this contest. 2025 for the proposed entry into service of the Ultrafan is far later than the 2022 entry into service of the Project Sunrise aircraft. The entire fleet of Sunrise aircraft will likely be in service by this time. If airlines waited for technology that is still on the drawing board, they would never order any aircraft.

Do you have a link to a credible source that mentions the Rolls-Royce Ultrafan being a potential candidate for an Airbus A380 re-engine? All of your information above comes with absolutely no source, apart from a whole bunch of apparent hearsay.

The only thing ever mentioned is for Ultrafan is a potential re-engine for the Airbus A350 such as here in this Flight Global article.

If you're going to pass off information as fact (which the tone of your posts always seems to suggest) at least have the courtesy to attribute it to a source. Nothing wrong with, "I heard from friends at BA, QF and EK - separately - that Airbus have been probing market feedback for an Airbus A380 Ultrafan conversion" ... or, "I was talking to a friend who works in an area of the industry that would give him this knowledge, and he said that..." ... or, "here's a link to an article where it says" ... or, "here's the link to the page at Rolls-Royce that says it will have 15% TSFC drop"... at least then it lets people make their own decision as to whether you're talking out of your behind or not. Also, it would let us mere mortals read the articles you're referencing, to further our own knowledge. Your post seems like you're trolling, to be quite frank, which is really disappointing.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8890
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:12 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
In this order, AJ's preference for Boeing weighs much much more than any fuel burn advantage that either model would have.

One has to wonder why he stabbed Boeing in the back by reducing the 300 pax requirement which made it easier for the A350 to compete.
Must be a turncoat.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8890
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:19 pm

zeke wrote:
The A380 today can operate SYD-DFW, Ultrafan should enable SYD-LHR with current QF A380 configuration. I would expect a 15% TSFC drop from the 2004 Trent 900 to a 2025 Ultrafan.

With those numbers I would have to question the wisdom of Airbus in shutting down the line, why not decrease production to 1 frame or some such figure a year to stretch the time, Boeing showed how it could be done with the 767 / 747 line, so we know it is doable.
Why all the fooling around with the A380 Plus, etc etc when the Ultra Fan would obviously be the engine required to make the a/c a top seller.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:37 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
It is not really a wildcard at all in this contest. 2025 for the proposed entry into service of the Ultrafan is far later than the 2022 entry into service of the Project Sunrise aircraft. The entire fleet of Sunrise aircraft will likely be in service by this time. If airlines waited for technology that is still on the drawing board, they would never order any aircraft.

Do you have a link to a credible source that mentions the Rolls-Royce Ultrafan being a potential candidate for an Airbus A380 re-engine? All of your information above comes with absolutely no source, apart from a whole bunch of apparent hearsay.


There is nothing stopping them starting the route with a smaller aircraft and then upgrading capacity. They will likely drop the current PER-LHR flight with a higher capacity aircraft direct from the east coast.

There was an Airbus press release last year regarding the Airbus/RR collaboration on Ultrafan Airbus doing the airframe integration. The scope of the agreement from what I recall was not limited to just the A350 as you indicated.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:49 pm

par13del wrote:
With those numbers I would have to question the wisdom of Airbus in shutting down the line, why not decrease production to 1 frame or some such figure a year to stretch the time, Boeing showed how it could be done with the 767 / 747 line, so we know it is doable.
Why all the fooling around with the A380 Plus, etc etc when the Ultra Fan would obviously be the engine required to make the a/c a top seller.


I thought the A380 production rate was already as low as they could go with a hole of a few years of production before 2025. The long lead time items would need to stop production 12-24 months before the line does.

A re-engineered A380 with ultrafan would present a low capital and investment route for current operators.

An ultrafan conversion threat may never eventuate, but the possibly will put yield pressure on the 77X. Just like an ultrafan conversion on the A330/A330 will put yield pressure on the 787/77X.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 5:50 pm

cpd wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Technically, they are all breaking the forum rules in that technical discussion is only supposed to be in the technical sub-forum.

But, I'm sure we are all thankful that it isn't another A-v-B back and forwards! Hence why nobody is complaining. :)

Oh yes it is. But it's being fought as a proxy war between GE and RR. ;)
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:00 pm

zeke wrote:
par13del wrote:
With those numbers I would have to question the wisdom of Airbus in shutting down the line, why not decrease production to 1 frame or some such figure a year to stretch the time, Boeing showed how it could be done with the 767 / 747 line, so we know it is doable.
Why all the fooling around with the A380 Plus, etc etc when the Ultra Fan would obviously be the engine required to make the a/c a top seller.


I thought the A380 production rate was already as low as they could go with a hole of a few years of production before 2025. The long lead time items would need to stop production 12-24 months before the line does.

A re-engineered A380 with ultrafan would present a low capital and investment route for current operators.

An ultrafan conversion threat may never eventuate, but the possibly will put yield pressure on the 77X. Just like an ultrafan conversion on the A330/A330 will put yield pressure on the 787/77X.

An A380 re-engine is so improbable as to induce incredulous laughter even in the most diehard Airbus fanboy.
Image
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:02 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


Yeah, AJ is a Boeing guy pur-sang, so the B778 is already picked regardless of whether it has a 5% TFDSXSFC advantage or not.

The GE9X 5% SFC advantage, it's not specified at which phase of flight and what thrust settings.

If it would say Cruise TSFC it would be meaningful but it doesn't. It could be idle SFC for all we know.
Plus the A350XWB cruises faster, how about that?

Stop wasting your time on meaningless comparisons and start comparing meaningful parameters.
In this order, AJ's preference for Boeing weighs much much more than any fuel burn advantage that either model would have.
The width of the fuselage is also very relevant when talking about a premium heavy aircraft.
Which seats would fit better in which aircraft, etc...



What is 'pur-sang'?
Whatever
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:12 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
What is 'pur-sang'?

Pure blood. In this case, pure Boeing blood. It means that Joyce will choose Boeing because he is biased, and genetically incapable of doing otherwise. It's just another pre-rationalization if Boeing wins, aka lowering expectations for Airbus. (qv. Fanboy debating tactics)

Completely ignores the recent 100ish frame A320 orders, of course.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Alan Joyce doesn't prefer Boeing, he prefers a few more coins jangling around in his pocket. He'll happily order the A350 if after all the numbers are crunched he believes it's the best financial decision.

The A350 Ultrafan is something to think about, but IMO the 2025 EIS date is not remotely realistic. And every year you push it back reduces its relevance a bit. IMO the scenario in which the Ultrafan makes the most difference is one where Airbus proposes 1) current engine A350-1000ULR to serve as initial Project Sunrise aircraft; 2) Ultrafan A350-1000 in 2027-28 to take over Sunrise routes and displace the initial A350-1000 (deconverted from ULR) to long-haul growth routes; and 3) Ultrafan A350-2000 for delivery around 2030 as A380 replacements. There is a lot of capex and a lot of capacity involved in that plan, and I'm not sure Joyce would bite.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17905
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:22 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Please Qantas, pick the damn aircraft of choice so we can move beyond fuel burn and my-engine-is-better-than-your-engine comments!


^ This!

The cheerleading is annoying. It would be nice if we could all just have a normal discussion and learn from each other but it always degenerates into this mine-is-better-than-yours mess.

None of these aircraft and the engines powering (or that will power) them are bad. The technology in these marvelous machines are cutting edge and the best it's EVER been.

It is insulting and a disservice to the remarkable, highly-skilled Airbus/Boeing/RR/GE employees who have studied hard and work even harder everyday to make the seemingly impossible (getting hundreds of tons of 'stuff' efficiently and safely into the air every few seconds) possible, to be so hung up about - in the grand scheme of things - semi-/insignificant semantics.

Yeah, there will be 1% fuel efficiency here, 1% operational efficiency there, another 1% financial benefit over here compared with the competition. Does it really matter?

None of these aircraft really need saving from anyone here. And it's not as if any of the cheerleaders can even begin to have ANY impact of any of the plans and decisions and engineering progress being discussed here.

It is amusing (before it becomes annoying again) to watch members clutching at straws to achieve some weird dominance over other members. It is even more amusing (also, before it becomes annoying again) to watch as arguments, once so steadfastly upheld, change once a member's preferred manufacturer starts doing what the opposition once did...

QF - any airline - will choose what is best for their unique needs from the best that the OEMs have to offer regardless of what we prefer... so everyone just needs to grab a brown bag and do some breathing exercises, it will all be okay, I promise.

Moka,

Did you apply to be a moderator? I'm serious.

It is facinating to see the differences, but users become obsessed with little differences. For example, A350 weight, yet the A320NEO, A330NEO, and E2 all gained substantial weight to achieve the even more substantial fuel savings.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:35 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Do you have a link to a credible source that mentions the Rolls-Royce Ultrafan being a potential candidate for an Airbus A380 re-engine? All of your information above comes with absolutely no source, apart from a whole bunch of apparent hearsay.


Found the Airbus press release https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... labor.html

“UltraFan features a new engine core architecture and lean-burn combustion system which will contribute to improved fuel burn efficiency and lower emissions, along with a carbon titanium fan blade system and composite casing which reduce weight. The engine also introduces a geared design to deliver efficient power at high-bypass ratios.

For Airbus, the project will enable it to fully integrate the overall powerplant system – composed of engine, pylon and nacelle – onto future long-range aircraft products, as well as facilitating scalability for future short-range aircraft. It will also build on Airbus’ expertise in advanced manufacturing technologies, such as high-deposition-rate additive manufacture, welded assembly and high production rate thermoplastics.”

RR saying it sees broad application for ultrafan.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fa-456250/

“R-R, for its part, is Airbus's sole engine supplier for the A350 and A330neo, and will provide its Trent 900 engine for remaining A380 orders.

East says the UltraFan programme – which involves a new engine core and geared fan architecture – is scalable to provide 25,000-100,000lb-plus (111kN-446kN) of thrust, making it suitable to power single-aisle and long-haul aircraft.

The first opportunity to provide an UltraFan variant will probably be on a long-haul aircraft, with the A350 being a likely candidate for a potential re-engining effort, East says.”

“New engines planned by Rolls-Royce (R-R) reflect recent powerplant trends, including steadily increasing propulsive efficiency obtained with larger-diameter fans, higher bypass ratios and smaller engine cores. The engines could power updated contemporary widebody platforms, with R-R civil large engines president Eric Schulz confirming “very live” discussions with Airbus. “If it decides to re-engine the A330 or A380, we will be here to provide support,” he said during a pre-show briefing.”

“Expected to follow about five years later, the UltraFan is aimed at offering at least a 15:1 bypass ratio and an overall pressure ratio of more than 70:1. The company suggests that, relative to the Trent 700 powering the Airbus A330, the engines will provide “significant efficiency improvements” of more than 20 percent and 25 percent, respectively. R-R plans to run its first powered gearbox next year and a demonstrator of the engine could fly before 2020.”

From https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... d-ultrafan



Bricktop wrote:
An A380 re-engine is so improbable as to induce incredulous laughter even in the most diehard Airbus fanboy.


I guarantee you the first airframe to have an ultrafan installed will be the A380, it will be the flight test platform.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 6:58 pm

zeke wrote:
I guarantee you the first airframe to have an ultrafan installed will be the A380, it will be the flight test platform.

One on an A380 test platform I can absolutely see. Four on commercial A380? Not so much. That ship has sailed beyond the horizon, I am afraid.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:07 pm

Bricktop wrote:
One on an A380 test platform I can absolutely see. Four on commercial A380? Not so much. That ship has sailed beyond the horizon, I am afraid.


Interesting, so ER/Airbus develop the engine, pylon, nacelle, and integrate it into the airframe/avionics on the A380. Then do the certification flight testing for the engine.

What exactly is the risk for RR/Airbus at that point to offer the engine to airframes already in service ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8890
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:30 pm

We saw the A350 engines tested on other Airbus a/c same as what GE did with the 747 and GENX, but my understanding was that those were just for the engine, but not the combination of that frame and that engine, I have to assume that such certification would be additional.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2275
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:33 pm

zeke wrote:

What exactly is the risk for RR/Airbus at that point to offer the engine to airframes already in service ?



In fairness, I have been wondering lately what the Over/Under on a re-engining program would look like.

Particularly for someone like EK. With a theoretical eventual fleet size of say, 70 such examples, would the efficiency gains justify the cost to the point of doing this...

The 388s they have aren't exactly Cycle Intensive, so this could actually be worth their while over the long term. Especially if there isn't much of a used market for the 388s or their parts.

It's not precisely apples oranges, but factors like this are a huge part of the reason DC-8 60/70s lasted so long in the freight markets after they were re-engined.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 7:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
One on an A380 test platform I can absolutely see. Four on commercial A380? Not so much. That ship has sailed beyond the horizon, I am afraid.


Interesting, so ER/Airbus develop the engine, pylon, nacelle, and integrate it into the airframe/avionics on the A380. Then do the certification flight testing for the engine.

What exactly is the risk for RR/Airbus at that point to offer the engine to airframes already in service ?

And if that happens, you can say "I told you so!". I suspect Airbus and RR will not put money on the table to do it, and therefore I wouldn't bet on it. STC probably won't either, and he's the only customer that matters.
 
Heinkel
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 8:03 pm

Bricktop wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
What is 'pur-sang'?

Pure blood. In this case, pure Boeing blood. It means that Joyce will choose Boeing because he is biased, and genetically incapable of doing otherwise. It's just another pre-rationalization if Boeing wins, aka lowering expectations for Airbus. (qv. Fanboy debating tactics)


Nope.

"pur-sang" is French and means "thoroughbred".
Last edited by Heinkel on Thu May 23, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
aryonoco
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 8:03 pm

zeke I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, but bringing the A380neo into this conversation is just absurd.

That ship has long sailed. Time to let it go.

The only application of Ultrafan to this discussion is the potential for a A350-2000 with an Ultrafan engine towards the end of the next decade, and how that might fit in with QF's overall fleet strategy.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 8:20 pm

Bricktop wrote:
zeke wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
One on an A380 test platform I can absolutely see. Four on commercial A380? Not so much. That ship has sailed beyond the horizon, I am afraid.


Interesting, so ER/Airbus develop the engine, pylon, nacelle, and integrate it into the airframe/avionics on the A380. Then do the certification flight testing for the engine.

What exactly is the risk for RR/Airbus at that point to offer the engine to airframes already in service ?

And if that happens, you can say "I told you so!". I suspect Airbus and RR will not put money on the table to do it, and therefore I wouldn't bet on it. STC probably won't either, and he's the only customer that matters.

If it were to happen, it would be the first production re-engining programme for a commercial jet airliner since the DC-8 70 series, which was itself the first production re-engining programme for a commercial jet airliner. About the only other commercial re-engining programmes of note that I can think of are the Convair 580 and Basler BT-67; altogether different beasts. So it would definitely be an unusual development. Then again the A380 is an unusual aircraft.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 8:23 pm

zeke wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
One on an A380 test platform I can absolutely see. Four on commercial A380? Not so much. That ship has sailed beyond the horizon, I am afraid.


Interesting, so ER/Airbus develop the engine, pylon, nacelle, and integrate it into the airframe/avionics on the A380. Then do the certification flight testing for the engine.

What exactly is the risk for RR/Airbus at that point to offer the engine to airframes already in service ?

The integration is done in a rather unoptimised way in a test frame and so is not like it would be on a production frame and is done so to please certification authorities on a one off basis, same as flying an aircraft under an experimental type certificate. Not a similar install or certification procedure to a full flying aircraft.

The integration that is done is ‘to get it away’ rather than make it a standard type.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu May 23, 2019 8:32 pm

par13del wrote:
One has to wonder why he stabbed Boeing in the back by reducing the 300 pax requirement which made it easier for the A350 to compete.
Must be a turncoat.



But the frame in the competition is the A35K and it is the same size, if not larger than the 778, so how does your post have any relevance at all? Airbus offered the A359 but all we have heard lately is that it is too small and thus the A35K is the frame in contention. So he stabbed Boeing in the back by scaling back the passenger requirements to allow Airbus to not offer the A359? :confused:

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos