Thorkel
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:38 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 5:26 am

Gemuser wrote:
Stitch wrote:
redroo wrote:
AJ is on record saying that PER isn’t going anywhere when the MEL and SYD go non stop.


Which seems to make sense as I have heard PER has one of, if not the, largest UK ex-pat community around and therefore O&D should be strong enough to sustain the route without the MEL tag-on.

IMHO depending on the UK expat community in PER to support the non stop is for a short time only, if it is current true. I don't know about PER specifically [or WA in general] but post world war II UK immigration to Australia, as a whole peaked in the 1970s. Family ties do not tend to stand the test of time in this country due to distance and cost, which may be changing but I've seen not evidance of it. Once the people who do the migrating pass on their children are not as close and their grand kids are not interested. [Speaking generally of course there are always exceptions]

Gemuser


PER vies with SYD as the city with having the largest UK born population outside of Europe. Around 10% of the population of PER were born in the UK. In addition, several of the largest companies on the ASX200 have their largest operations in PER and WA, but have headquarters or major operations in the UK (Rio TInto, BHP, and the Oil & Gas industry). Then you have the fact that WA has the second highest average salary of the states/territories (behind ACT), and the second highest state GSP per capital (behind NT) and I’m amazed why people think PER to LHR direct isn’t viable without MEL.

That being said, I do wonder if the sunrise aircraft will cause a change in how PER is used. If the sunrise aircraft can do SYD/MEL -> LHR with restrictions, then those restrictions would be a lot less of those same aircraft, or standard models of the sunrise aircraft (A359, A351, 777-9) when operated from Perth. There might be a model where SYD/MEL->LHR direct is for the premium passengers, and sunrise (or at least larger than 789) operate from PER, connecting with flights from SYD and MEL. Premium goes direct, budget connects in PER with a bigger aircraft.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 8411
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 6:05 am

zeke wrote:
redroo wrote:
AJ is on record saying that PER isn’t going anywhere when the MEL and SYD go non stop.


Once again AJ proves he is the smartest person in the room. It would have been a real technical marvel to see QF move PER from where it is now.

Stitch wrote:
Which seems to make sense as I have heard PER has one of, if not the, largest UK ex-pat community around and therefore O&D should be strong enough to sustain the route without the MEL tag-on.


LHR slots are very limited, The current QF9 slot will be used by either the SYD or MEL arrival. I assume SYD-LHR will start first, QF 9 will continue via PER, once they have enough frames go direct from MEL.

I would then assume the 789 frames get redeployed trans pacific.

Gemuser wrote:
IMHO depending on the UK expat community in PER to support the non stop is for a short time only, if it is current true.


I think PER will just end up connecting via SIN again.


Qantas still has 2 slot pairs currently leased to BA and all indications from QF have been that SYD/MEL-LHR will operate alongside their existing LHR routes
Forum Moderator
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6821
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 am

wangjm777 wrote:
Does the recent NZ order indicate that the “ER” version of 787-9/-10 is back in the competition for Project Sunrise?



The 787 was never in the competition for project sunrise.
 
gloom
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 6:29 am

wangjm777 wrote:
Does the recent NZ order indicate that the “ER” version of 787-9/-10 is back in the competition for Project Sunrise?


No.
It's not in the competition for exactly the same reason the 359 was not an option. It's too small for pax, bags and enough fuel. It's nowhere near.

Cheers,
Adam
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 7:03 am

wangjm777 wrote:
Does the recent NZ order indicate that the “ER” version of 787-9/-10 is back in the competition for Project Sunrise?


There was no 787 ER purchased by NZ.

qf789 wrote:
Qantas still has 2 slot pairs currently leased to BA and all indications from QF have been that SYD/MEL-LHR will operate alongside their existing LHR routes


I agree the flight via SIN will continue, however PER I think makes no sense. I don’t remember the old QF29/30 and QF1/2 (the old HKG/BKK LHR flights)

I went through this earlier in the thread, you need to look at the aircraft utilisation. I highly doubt they will want an aircraft sitting on the ground for 10-18 hrs in LHR.

QF simply cannot change the timings of slots as they please, neither in SYD or LHR.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 7738
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 am

Qantas' LHR slot times work relatively well. Please don't quote me on exact times, but this is the gist of it:

They have three early morning arrival slots in the 05:00-07:00 period, and one early afternoon (14:30 IIRC). The early morning arrivals would be used for SYD, MEL and PER as an afternoon arrival would mean a departure at some ungodly hour of the morning.

This means that SIN would have to use the afternoon slot, with a schedule something like SYD-SIN 22:30-05:15 SIN-LHR 08:00-14:30. This isn't ideal as it doesn't facilitate connections from BNE, but is realistically the best they could do without buying an additional slot during the exorbitantly expensive early morning period.

They have two departure slots in the early afternoon, which would be used for SYD and MEL with an arrival in Australia in the early evening. A 22:00 departure from LHR would give something like an 03:00 arrival during Northern Summer which would be impossible for Sydney and highly illogical for Melbourne.

The two evening departure slots would be used for SIN per the current schedules and PER with an evening arrival.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 12:04 pm

Don’t like that at all, that’s something like 30 hrs 3 aircraft are sitting on the ground. The PER timing being the worst offender.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 12:37 pm

zeke wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
Does the recent NZ order indicate that the “ER” version of 787-9/-10 is back in the competition for Project Sunrise?


There was no 787 ER purchased by NZ.

Or anybody else for that matter.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 12:53 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
I am sure the bags could arrive shortly after you clear customs. I am sure Qantas could have the domestic and Perth flight tightly synced. Maybe the bags could leave on the domestic flight to Perth 15 minutes early. Swapoing the bags at Perth might take 30 minutes so the bags might be less than 30 minutes behind.

It is an extremely simple solution.


If I have understood you correctly, you're saying I would check my bags in at SYD for the non-stop to LHR, and within 30 minutes of my arrival into LHR on the direct flight, my bags will arrive having been SYD > PER on domestic flight, then transferred to the PER > LHR flight.

And all that only added 30 minutes.

Are you mad?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 7738
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 1:44 pm

zeke wrote:
Don’t like that at all, that’s something like 30 hrs 3 aircraft are sitting on the ground. The PER timing being the worst offender.


I agree that Perth isn't ideal, but other than that the times aren't particularly bad.

The SYD and MEL frames would spend about 8 hours in LHR and 2-3 in Australia. That's not terrible utilisation, especially if line maintenance is completed at LHR. A long haul aircraft spending 8 or more hours on the ground due to optimal departure/arrival times is far from unheard of.

The hypothetical PM Singapore arrival would reduce the time spent on the ground at LHR from the current 15 hours to 6.5 hours, although I acknowledge that without other changes to the A380 network this just moves that dead time from LHR to SYD. Nonetheless if Qantas is satisfied with current A380 utilisation then I don't see why that is an issue.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 1:57 pm

Would it be viable in the future to unify the ULR fleet into one type that is versatile enough to fly PER-LHR, PER-SYD, PER-MEL, MEL-LHR, SYD-LHR as well as the last two with intermediary stops at SIN. If you also add in flights to NY you might be able to play around enough that you do not get huge down times of the aircraft.
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 1:59 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
Does the recent NZ order indicate that the “ER” version of 787-9/-10 is back in the competition for Project Sunrise?



The 787 was never in the competition for project sunrise.


But it is a factor. The aircraft chosen needs to serve other non SYD LHR routes. If a 78J can do some of those, that it mitigates the need for an A350. Qantas now can look at the 77X family, and get a SYD LHR bird (778) as well as an A380 replacement (779).

To me this boils down to how much Qantas wants a 779 to replace the 380. Not a lot of daylight between the other choices, pretty equal.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 4:50 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Qantas' LHR slot times work relatively well. Please don't quote me on exact times, but this is the gist of it:


Nice summary there, thanks for that!

Is that including the leased out slots, or?
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
pabloeing
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 5:03 pm

¿Maybe the Project Sunrise is a package?....B778 for direct flights to LHR and JFK and B779 for A380 replacement.......A350-1000 ULR and A350-1000 in Airbus.....
 
texl1649
Posts: 964
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 5:49 pm

779 to eventually replace the A380's is pretty much inevitable for QF (it's not like Airbus is just on the cusp of launching a plane larger than the A350-1000 despite rumors/internet sketches). Sunrise represents a bit of a chance to cut off any further 778 development/progress. The design's not firmed, and Boeing doesn't really have to do it. However, if they don't, it could quite quickly/surprisingly lead to the penultimate 777 stretch.
 
Mrakula
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 6:07 pm

I do not why all those post mentioned A380. There will be no need of VLA after you have smaller more efficient plane, which can connect more destinations directly. That is why A380 failed and 787 is succeed!
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 6:45 pm

Mrakula wrote:
I do not why all those post mentioned A380. There will be no need of VLA after you have smaller more efficient plane, which can connect more destinations directly. That is why A380 failed and 787 is succeed!

That's a valid point. One that could lead QF to choose the A350
 
texl1649
Posts: 964
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 7:18 pm

QF isn't ditching their A380's today, but the reality is that they will replace them with something some day; it will need to be something relatively close in size. I think the 779 is inevitable as Airbus is loathe to go to any new A350-3000 it seems, which also contemplates what is best for QF for Sunrise; the 778 or A350 could do it, but if a huge future 77x fleet is inevitable (be it the 779 or a future larger sibling), the A380 is relevant to the discussion.

Nothing is ever simple though. A380 service costs will only escalate if there's no future for Airbus here (WB fleet), and they have nowhere to ship them off to really. Contrarily, how does RR vs. GE fit into the equations? Airbus has a history, perhaps, of really being aggressive/manipulative with Qantas in particular. We will see; again I see this fleet decision as intermingled to a large degree with the A380 future there.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-777-order/
 
tigerotor77w
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:35 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 7:25 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Regardless of what the information say, Airbus will always be the most optimized manufacturer/aircraft in their eyes. I would advise you to ask other users.

Wow! If you feel so aggrieved post some information and not just slander. You just denigrate your own position when you post statements like that. Please show where you think I haven’t been fair in my analysis or stop trolling.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Hey Fred,

I don't think you were referring to my original post, but just to be clear, my post wasn't to slander. Your simulation is as close to operational data as we have access to here (given, of course, whatever assumptions used as initial conditions are representative of a given mission), so I was asking the question more generally: if this route isn't one where the B778 is better suited, what is a route where it would be?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2754
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 9:36 pm

tigerotor77w wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Regardless of what the information say, Airbus will always be the most optimized manufacturer/aircraft in their eyes. I would advise you to ask other users.

Wow! If you feel so aggrieved post some information and not just slander. You just denigrate your own position when you post statements like that. Please show where you think I haven’t been fair in my analysis or stop trolling.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey Fred,

I don't think you were referring to my original post, but just to be clear, my post wasn't to slander. Your simulation is as close to operational data as we have access to here (given, of course, whatever assumptions used as initial conditions are representative of a given mission), so I was asking the question more generally: if this route isn't one where the B778 is better suited, what is a route where it would be?[/quote]
As an educated guess I would say that the ‘long range’ moniker is simply a proxy for a function of weight at any given time. The advantage that an aircraft might have at any range it will also have at an increased weight as the initial cruise stages are simply cruises at higher weights, the last 2 hrs of any flight don’t care how many hours went by previously in that flight ( the reasoning that drove me to make my model work backwards).

If we were to assume two identical aircraft (similar technology levels) but with different sized wings, one big and heavy and one small and light then we would be able to determine at any given payload which was most efficient*. They would cruise at different speeds and different altitudes but we would expect the smaller winged version so be more efficient at lower weights and the larger winged to be more efficient at higher weights. This of course being down to the playoff between induced vs lift independent drag. Bigger wing has less induced drag but more lift independent drag.

If you break the 20hr mission down in to a series of 1hr cruises at decreasing weights then you’d see that that larger winged, heavier aircraft would have a better relative efficiency when heavier and vice versa. So if we take a step back from what makes an aircraft good at long range it is that it is good at flying heavy as a larger proportion of its flight is at a higher weight.

So... if you were to say where would the 778 be a good fit then looking at what we can take from it’s basic geometry then it’s likely highest relative efficiency vs the A351 would be in the area where the highest average weight of the aircraft is greatest. i.e. a Flight of maximum payload taking off at MTOW.

Sorry if that’s a bit rambling, it’s a bit difficult on my phone.

* efficient = maximum UL/D for this example

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 9:51 pm

vhtje wrote:
If I have understood you correctly, you're saying I would check my bags in at SYD for the non-stop to LHR, and within 30 minutes of my arrival into LHR on the direct flight, my bags will arrive having been SYD > PER on domestic flight, then transferred to the PER > LHR flight.

And all that only added 30 minutes.

Are you mad?

No, you would go to check in your bags and they would tell you to go home because they've just blocked 50 seats due to bad weather. You would then ask the person at the desk if they are mad and then you will say that you will never fly Qantas again.

Or you could wait 30 minutes extra at London for your bag. You probably wouldn't even notice after you go through customs.

Stopping via Perth is an extra 45 minutes total flight time. As I already said the bags would have to leave Sydney on a flight 15 minutes early. The majority of passengers on an international flight will check in their bags an hour before takeoff so the domestic flight could even leave 30 minutes early.

I have witnessed passenger bags miss a flight and the loaded container got put on the next flight. It is not a deal breaker or a securuty issue.

Bumping off 20% of the passengers reduces revenue by 20% yet the staff, fuel an gate costs remain unchanged. The flight would make a loss. You would be mad to do that instead of taking the bags out if you had a parallel flight.
 
StTim
Posts: 3355
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Mon May 27, 2019 10:05 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Stopping via Perth is an extra 45 minutes total flight time.


Are you looking at in the air time between MEL - LHR direct and MEL- PER - LHR? I think you are missing the on the ground time. Otherwise direct would not make sense.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 12:41 am

StTim wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Stopping via Perth is an extra 45 minutes total flight time.


Are you looking at in the air time between MEL - LHR direct and MEL- PER - LHR? I think you are missing the on the ground time. Otherwise direct would not make sense.

Loading LD3's is quick.

The turnaround time is limited by refueling, boarding and deboarding. I have seen containers placed on an aircraft less than a minute after it began to start moving.

The Perth to London flight could be taking off within 15 minutes of the Sydney-Perth flight landing. Qantas could easily have both aircraft at gates next to eachother. So the first containers to come off the domestic flight are the last ones to get loaded onto the London flight. The swpping of the LD3's might only take a few minutes but you would still allow 15 minutes for weather or delays.

The bags move faster than the passnegers at most airports so the delay would be minimal at the London end. Qantas could give free drinks at their lounge as they wait. That would be far cheaper than blocking 50 seats on a bad weather day. The bags would go with the non stop flight on a good weather day.

This is a big advantage of having a parallel route with the same carrier. BA would not be able to send their bags via Perth on a bad weather day. They would have to either block seats or have the bags arrive 3+ hours late.

The US3 in theory has the same advantage flying to Australia, they could do New York to Sydney and send the bags via Los Angeles in bad weather. They could have a much denser cabin than Qantas.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 1:10 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Loading LD3's is quick.

The turnaround time is limited by refueling, boarding and deboarding. I have seen containers placed on an aircraft less than a minute after it began to start moving.

The Perth to London flight could be taking off within 15 minutes of the Sydney-Perth flight landing. Qantas could easily have both aircraft at gates next to eachother. So the first containers to come off the domestic flight are the last ones to get loaded onto the London flight. The swpping of the LD3's might only take a few minutes but you would still allow 15 minutes for weather or delays.

The bags move faster than the passnegers at most airports so the delay would be minimal at the London end. Qantas could give free drinks at their lounge as they wait. That would be far cheaper than blocking 50 seats on a bad weather day. The bags would go with the non stop flight on a good weather day.

This is a big advantage of having a parallel route with the same carrier. BA would not be able to send their bags via Perth on a bad weather day. They would have to either block seats or have the bags arrive 3+ hours late.

The US3 in theory has the same advantage flying to Australia, they could do New York to Sydney and send the bags via Los Angeles in bad weather. They could have a much denser cabin than Qantas.


That will not happen, it violates the positive passenger bag-match ruke.

We allow 40 minutes for bags from
connecting flights, they are unloaded, re-screened, and loaded again. The only way passenger bags should travel syd per lhr is if the passenger is also travelling.

You have been told why above, saying over and over again will not make it come true. The reason it will not happen is Pan Am 103.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
tealnz
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 2:14 am

texl1649 wrote:
QF isn't ditching their A380's today, but the reality is that they will replace them with something some day; it will need to be something relatively close in size. I think the 779 is inevitable as Airbus is loathe to go to any new A350-3000 it seems, which also contemplates what is best for QF for Sunrise; the 778 or A350 could do it, but if a huge future 77x fleet is inevitable (be it the 779 or a future larger sibling), the A380 is relevant to the discussion.

Sure, they'll need to replace the A380s eventually. But the whole point of Sunrise is a shift from hubbing to ULH point to point, with greater frequency and flexibility. It's not as if QF have a single hub like LHR or DXB. They have two big cities and several smaller ones from which they operate international long haul. Their situation is more like that of US3 than ME3: the US carriers have never shown interest in the 77X and it's entirely possible that QF will decide to go for the lighter/cheaper/more efficient A35K as their solution to long haul as well as ULH. It is the size of a 77W after all.
 
Pcoder
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:44 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 2:56 am

The main objectives of project sunrise from a corporate prospective is the stop the leaking/ increase market share on European long haul to other airlines in offering a unique non stop flight.

As Sydney airport has traditionally been the hub for Qantas (sometimes called Sydney airways), very large airline have worked well for it due the the various restrictions at Sydney. But with the decrease in international market share for Sydney and the new Sydney West airport, the need for a large plane will not be as great.

I very much see Sydney West being Sydney's Gatwick, with major services still at Kingsford-Smith, but special late night services to destinations like LAX, operated from Sydney West. If Qantas does something like this when Sydney West opens, then the need for VLAs won't be there.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 6:14 am

Pcoder wrote:
The main objectives of project sunrise from a corporate prospective is the stop the leaking/ increase market share on European long haul to other airlines in offering a unique non stop flight

I agree, to a point. It's not to stop the leaking of market share but to stop the leakage of high yield passengers on the Kangaroo route. I suppect that market share may continue to decline but the increase in yield "SHOULD" more than compensate. In other words they are discouraging low yield passengers [discount fare] by higher fares but encouraging high yield passengers [preimum fare] by offering non stop flight that nobody [except MAYBE BA and/or VS] can possibly match. They are doing this because they cannot match the low fares of the Asian/Middle Eastern airlines due to their cost base BUT they can offer a preimum product.

Gemuser
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 7:08 am

zeke wrote:
That will not happen, it violates the positive passenger bag-match ruke.

The only way passenger bags should travel syd per lhr is if the passenger is also travelling.

You have been told why above, saying over and over again will not make it come true. The reason it will not happen is Pan Am 103.


This is and isn't true.

It is true that passengers and bags must match. Several times flights have been delayed as the person has not presented at the gate, and therefore we've had to wait while their bags were found and unloaded. So you're not wrong there.

At the same time, there is a separate procedure for bags travelling alone. I've had my bag go missing four times and each time it has been put on another flight, or indeed, another set of flights (judging from the new bag tag), to catch up with me. When it arrives where I am, it's then couriered out to me.

Therefore, it's also entirely possible for the bags to go without the passengers, and it happens every day. I think this is the point being made here.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 7:11 am

zeke wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Loading LD3's is quick.




That will not happen, it violates the positive passenger bag-match ruke.



There are airlines with policies that allow for bags to fly without passengers so long as the passengers don't know that their bags aren't on the plane with them. Its very common when weight restricted to bump bags but let the people fly. The bags then connect via a later flight or an other airline as rush bags.

Not saying that is what would ever be planned, but its certainly possible and done regularly.

Where the bag match rule comes into play is when a passenger voluntarily or medically offloads. If the passenger flies then the bags can be bumped and go later.
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 8:00 am

ClassicLover wrote:
At the same time, there is a separate procedure for bags travelling alone. I've had my bag go missing four times and each time it has been put on another flight, or indeed, another set of flights (judging from the new bag tag), to catch up with me. When it arrives where I am, it's then couriered out to me.

Therefore, it's also entirely possible for the bags to go without the passengers, and it happens every day. I think this is the point being made here.


I covered this on the previous page. What is being advocated is bags are planned, loaded and depart on a SYD-PER flight before the SYD-LHR flight has left. That will never happen as the passenger can no show Oor be offloaded for SYD-LHR flight.

zeke wrote:
TaniTaniwha wrote:
I understand this, however, I'm not sure how this works when a customer's bags miss the flight and then arrive on another, later flight.


That is ok, it is not pre-planned. The plan was for the bags to go with you the whole way. You should not be made aware of this until after you arrived at your destination where the bags were checked to.



YYZatcboy wrote:

There are airlines with policies that allow for bags to fly without passengers so long as the passengers don't know that their bags aren't on the plane with them. Its very common when weight restricted to bump bags but let the people fly. The bags then connect via a later flight or an other airline as rush bags.

Not saying that is what would ever be planned, but its certainly possible and done regularly.

Where the bag match rule comes into play is when a passenger voluntarily or medically offloads. If the passenger flies then the bags can be bumped and go later.


Not where I work, bags are planned to always travel with the passenger. We would flight plan an inflight refile, if we ended up not having enough fuel close to the end of the flight we would make a short technical stop for fuel and compete the journey. Like I said on the previous page, QF would plan SYd-LHR, on paper their destination would be CPH, once they were abeam CPH they would make a decision to continue to LHR or land and get fuel.

As the captain I would limit the ZFW so the flight will meet the flight planning requirements. Load control will offload staff, then cargo, and then passengers in that order to meet the limited ZFW.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 8:16 am

zeke wrote:
Not where I work, bags are planned to always travel with the passenger. We would flight plan an inflight refile, if we ended up not having enough fuel close to the end of the flight we would make a short technical stop for fuel and compete the journey.

Just because your work doesn't do it doesn't mean Qantas can't do it. Bumping bags happens regularly as YYZatcboy pointed out.

Your airline would probably also bump bags if they had a convenient parallel flight that ends at the same destination. If your airline had three options:
A) Bump 50 passengers so it can fly nonstop
B) Do an expensive refuel stop
C) Put the bags on the parallel one stop route and the bags arrive only 30 minutes late.

Your airline would pick option C. The reason it doesn't is because it it does not have a parallel one stop route. Qantas does.

The project sunrise passengers would be completely unaware their bags took a different flight. If they had to wait 30 minutes at London they probably would not notice. If the 777-8 is pushing the limit and the bags regularly got bumped off I'm sure Qantas would put procedures in place to make the bags arrive as fast as possible at London.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 8:32 am

RJMAZ wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not where I work, bags are planned to always travel with the passenger. We would flight plan an inflight refile, if we ended up not having enough fuel close to the end of the flight we would make a short technical stop for fuel and compete the journey.

Just because your work doesn't do it doesn't mean Qantas can't do it. Bumping bags happens regularly as YYZatcboy pointed out.

Your airline would probably also bump bags if they had a convenient parallel flight that ends at the same destination. If your airline had three options:
A) Bump 50 passengers so it can fly nonstop
B) Do an expensive refuel stop
C) Put the bags on the parallel one stop route and the bags arrive only 30 minutes late.

Your airline would pick option C. The reason it doesn't is because it it does not have a parallel one stop route. Qantas does.

The project sunrise passengers would be completely unaware their bags took a different flight. If they had to wait 30 minutes at London they probably would not notice. If the 777-8 is pushing the limit and the bags regularly got bumped off I'm sure Qantas would put procedures in place to make the bags arrive as fast as possible at London.



You great at making all sorts of lofty claims. Please produce the QANTAS policy which states they do not observe positive passenger bag-match, and they will send checked luggage ahead of passengers.


From https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L01809

The operator of a prescribed air service commits an offence if, before an aircraft (the departing aircraft) that is operating the prescribed air service departs, every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to:
(a) a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft; or
(b) a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed; or
(c) a passenger who does not re‑board, or remain on board, the departing aircraft following diversion of the flight of the aircraft from its scheduled destination to an alternative destination in a circumstance specified in regulation 4.21A; or
(d) a passenger who is not on board the departing aircraft in the circumstances specified in regulation 4.21B.
Last edited by zeke on Tue May 28, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 8:37 am

RJMAZ wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not where I work, bags are planned to always travel with the passenger. We would flight plan an inflight refile, if we ended up not having enough fuel close to the end of the flight we would make a short technical stop for fuel and compete the journey.

Just because your work doesn't do it doesn't mean Qantas can't do it. Bumping bags happens regularly as YYZatcboy pointed out.

Your airline would probably also bump bags if they had a convenient parallel flight that ends at the same destination. If your airline had three options:
A) Bump 50 passengers so it can fly nonstop
B) Do an expensive refuel stop
C) Put the bags on the parallel one stop route and the bags arrive only 30 minutes late.

Your airline would pick option C. The reason it doesn't is because it it does not have a parallel one stop route. Qantas does.

The project sunrise passengers would be completely unaware their bags took a different flight. If they had to wait 30 minutes at London they probably would not notice. If the 777-8 is pushing the limit and the bags regularly got bumped off I'm sure Qantas would put procedures in place to make the bags arrive as fast as possible at London.


It is only possible to bump bags, if the bag leaves after the passenger. Then it is possible. You are only able to send the bag if you can be sure, that the passenger actually departed the airport.

Otherwise, if the passenger does not show up at the gate, or has some emergency and cancels the flight last minute the bags have to be unloaded again. That would lead to the earlier flight having to turn around and drop of the luggage.

So the SYD-PER-LHR for the luggage would only work if the SYD-PER leaves after the SYD-LHR. This on the other hand would mean long waiting times for our bags in London and that would not be tolerated by passengers.

Additionally it would lead to a lot of claims if the flight is diverted and half the passengers have no lug-gage.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2754
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 8:48 am

RJMAZ wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not where I work, bags are planned to always travel with the passenger. We would flight plan an inflight refile, if we ended up not having enough fuel close to the end of the flight we would make a short technical stop for fuel and compete the journey.

Just because your work doesn't do it doesn't mean Qantas can't do it. Bumping bags happens regularly as YYZatcboy pointed out.

Your airline would probably also bump bags if they had a convenient parallel flight that ends at the same destination. If your airline had three options:
A) Bump 50 passengers so it can fly nonstop
B) Do an expensive refuel stop
C) Put the bags on the parallel one stop route and the bags arrive only 30 minutes late.

Your airline would pick option C. The reason it doesn't is because it it does not have a parallel one stop route. Qantas does.

The project sunrise passengers would be completely unaware their bags took a different flight. If they had to wait 30 minutes at London they probably would not notice. If the 777-8 is pushing the limit and the bags regularly got bumped off I'm sure Qantas would put procedures in place to make the bags arrive as fast as possible at London.


Wait! Are you suggesting that Qantas should:
Schedule a service that leaves just before the SYD-LHR flight going to perth just in case there is some bad weather, It should also time in the PER-LHR service such that just as the additionally scheduled flight from SYD arrives it can pop open the cargo door, spit out a couple of containers of bags and load that on to the PER-LHR flight that for some reason is either magically not being affected by the same phenomenon as the SYD-LHR flight or the aircraft being used has so much spare capacity it is able to take the slack of the other flight too meaning that for most of the year it is running a hugely sub optimal aircraft.

You also think that the bags traveling on a route that is ~1hr longer at cruising speed will be able to descend taxi offload, reload, taxi and then climb back up and only take 1 hr longer in total?

How do they let the passengers know to arrive early for their bags to be put on the earlier departing flight?

Fred
Image
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 9:08 am

flipdewaf wrote:
You also think that the bags traveling on a route that is ~1hr longer at cruising speed will be able to descend taxi offload, reload, taxi and then climb back up and only take 1 hr longer in total?


Obviously Qantas aircraft fly backwards in time, there is a 2-3 hour time zone change between SYD-PER :roll:
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 10:35 am

zeke wrote:
You great at making all sorts of lofty claims. Please produce the QANTAS policy which states they do not observe positive passenger bag-match, and they will send checked luggage ahead of passengers.


From https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L01809

The operator of a prescribed air service commits an offence if, before an aircraft (the departing aircraft) that is operating the prescribed air service departs, every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to:
(a) a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft; or
(b) a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed; or
(c) a passenger who does not re‑board, or remain on board, the departing aircraft following diversion of the flight of the aircraft from its scheduled destination to an alternative destination in a circumstance specified in regulation 4.21A; or
(d) a passenger who is not on board the departing aircraft in the circumstances specified in regulation 4.21B.

My father on a Qantas flight had his bags go on a different flight. The bag arrived at his hotel 8 hours later. I do not believe you.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 10:37 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Wait! Are you suggesting that Qantas should:
Schedule a service that leaves just before the SYD-LHR flight going to perth just in case there is some bad weather, It should also time in the PER-LHR service such that just as the additionally scheduled flight from SYD arrives it can pop open the cargo door, spit out a couple of containers of bags and load that on to the PER-LHR

That is 100% correct. Qantas already has multiple flights to Perth from both Melbourne and Sydney. So it will only be a slight alignment of the flight times.

Qantas will have multiple landing slots at LHR for the non stop and kangaroo route flights. The Perth flight would then arrive last. Pretty simple.

If this meant the Project Sunrise flights could produce significantly more profit year round then I would rewrite any policy required. This is a very unique situation without precedence.

Normally an airline would buy an aircraft with headroom that can do the route without blocked seats on a bad weather day. There is no aircraft with longer range than the 777-8. Having the ability to easily bump bags allows that headroom to be used to carry more passengers and generate more profit.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:04 am

RJMAZ wrote:
My father on a Qantas flight had his bags go on a different flight. The bag arrived at his hotel 8 hours later. I do not believe you.


I didn’t ask you to believe me, the legislation is clear, it is illegal for checked luggage to travel before the passenger does. I asked you to provide the QANTAS policy that does this, I know it does not exist as it would be illegal to do so.

Baggage can travel later as I explained above, but cannot be planned that way, the luggage tag will reflect the same flights as the passenger.

This does happen for example if you fly domestic into SYD and your luggage is checked international. Normally passengers have their luggage checked through and boarding pass issued for the international sector.

If the baggage is loaded in the hold on the second sector, and the passenger does not show it is offloaded.

every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft

If the passenger boards and the baggage is delayed in transfer, the luggage can go on a later flight, but must not be planned that way. The passenger will not be informed their luggage is delayed until they have reached the checked destination.

every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed

That is the legislative requirements, I provided the link.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
StTim
Posts: 3355
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:15 am

RJMAZ wrote:
zeke wrote:
You great at making all sorts of lofty claims. Please produce the QANTAS policy which states they do not observe positive passenger bag-match, and they will send checked luggage ahead of passengers.


From https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L01809

The operator of a prescribed air service commits an offence if, before an aircraft (the departing aircraft) that is operating the prescribed air service departs, every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to:
(a) a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft; or
(b) a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed; or
(c) a passenger who does not re‑board, or remain on board, the departing aircraft following diversion of the flight of the aircraft from its scheduled destination to an alternative destination in a circumstance specified in regulation 4.21A; or
(d) a passenger who is not on board the departing aircraft in the circumstances specified in regulation 4.21B.

My father on a Qantas flight had his bags go on a different flight. The bag arrived at his hotel 8 hours later. I do not believe you.


Your father had already travelled so this fits within Zekes argument. The bag did not travel ahead of the passenger!
 
smartplane
Posts: 977
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:18 am

zeke wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
My father on a Qantas flight had his bags go on a different flight. The bag arrived at his hotel 8 hours later. I do not believe you.


I didn’t ask you to believe me, the legislation is clear, it is illegal for checked luggage to travel before the passenger does. I asked you to provide the QANTAS policy that does this, I know it does not exist as it would be illegal to do so.

Baggage can travel later as I explained above, but cannot be planned that way, the luggage tag will reflect the same flights as the passenger.

This does happen for example if you fly domestic into SYD and your luggage is checked international. Normally passengers have their luggage checked through and boarding pass issued for the international sector.

If the baggage is loaded in the hold on the second sector, and the passenger does not show it is offloaded.

every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft

If the passenger boards and the baggage is delayed in transfer, the luggage can go on a later flight, but must not be planned that way. The passenger will not be informed their luggage is delayed until they have reached the checked destination.

every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed

That is the legislative requirements, I provided the link.

If done deliberately, en masse, and irrespective of whether passengers had / had not departed, QF also breaching (departure, stop over and arrival) airports, over flight, aircraft and liability insurance conditions.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:24 am

StTim wrote:
Your father had already travelled so this fits within Zekes argument. The bag did not travel ahead of the passenger!


The luggage tag at check in would have shown the same flights as the passenger, I.e. the plan was for the bags to always travel with the passenger.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:24 am

RJMAZ wrote:
zeke wrote:
You great at making all sorts of lofty claims. Please produce the QANTAS policy which states they do not observe positive passenger bag-match, and they will send checked luggage ahead of passengers.


From https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L01809

The operator of a prescribed air service commits an offence if, before an aircraft (the departing aircraft) that is operating the prescribed air service departs, every item of checked baggage that is carried on board the departing aircraft is not matched to:
(a) a passenger who is on board the departing aircraft; or
(b) a passenger who was properly checked in for a flight of an aircraft that has departed; or
(c) a passenger who does not re‑board, or remain on board, the departing aircraft following diversion of the flight of the aircraft from its scheduled destination to an alternative destination in a circumstance specified in regulation 4.21A; or
(d) a passenger who is not on board the departing aircraft in the circumstances specified in regulation 4.21B.

My father on a Qantas flight had his bags go on a different flight. The bag arrived at his hotel 8 hours later. I do not believe you.


The point is that it cannot be pre-planned to happen this way.

If bad whether on a certain day requires bags to be bumped from the flight and put on another flight without prior notice, fine. BUT it cannot be planned this way.

Once, on a trip to Shanghai, my bag arrived on a separate flight. I was only informed about it after arrival into Shanghai. I had a connecting flight after that so couldn't wait for it. It was planned for the airline to courier it to me at my final destination.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 1:00 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
The point is that it cannot be pre-planned to happen this way.

If bad whether on a certain day requires bags to be bumped from the flight and put on another flight without prior notice, fine. BUT it cannot be planned this way.

Every post I have stated the words "bad weather".

For every project sunrise flight the plan would be for the bags to always go with the passenger. When the weather is checked in the hours before the flight a decision will be made if the bags must be bumped. The bags might get bumped 5%, 20% or even 50% of the time. How often the bags get bumoed would depends on how the 777-8 performs and how many seats they try to fit.

It would be an acceptable practice to bump bags at airlines around the world. The dispute would be if the bags could leave 15 minutes before the non stop flight. The bags could definitely be bumped providing they left 2 minutes later. Even then that would mean the bags would arrive in London maybe 60-70 minutes after the passengers arrive.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 1:49 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
For every project sunrise flight the plan would be for the bags to always go with the passenger. When the weather is checked in the hours before the flight a decision will be made if the bags must be bumped. The bags might get bumped 5%, 20% or even 50% of the time. How often the bags get bumoed would depends on how the 777-8 performs and how many seats they try to fit.

It would be an acceptable practice to bump bags at airlines around the world. The dispute would be if the bags could leave 15 minutes before the non stop flight. The bags could definitely be bumped providing they left 2 minutes later. Even then that would mean the bags would arrive in London maybe 60-70 minutes after the passengers arrive.


Dude - seriously, drop it. It's been explained to you multiple times already why your idea isn't feasible - the chief one being that it wouldn't be legal for Qantas to plan their luggage handling in this manner:

RJMAZ wrote:
When the weather is checked in the hours before the flight a decision will be made if the bags must be bumped


Beyond that, I can think of a number of other reasons why it wouldn't work: delays on the bags' flights would mean that bags could end up arriving many hours after passengers, which would cause immense logistical headaches at LHR for QF, not to mention costs. What if SYD > PER went tech, or hit weather delays, should the PER > LHR be delayed until the bags arrived from SYD? That would annoy all the passengers from PER (and MEL) who are in PER ready to depart, not to mention cause problems with QF's slots in LHR. Or should SYD passengers, having arrived already in London, be forced to wait for the next PER > LHR service 24 hours later for their bags? You'd only need this scenario to happen twice in one month for it to be a complete PR disaster for QF.

Then.. think about passengers connecting to other services at LHR. What if passengers missed their onward connections because they couldn't retrieve their bags? How much would that cost Qantas?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13697
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 4:31 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Every post I have stated the words "bad weather".

For every project sunrise flight the plan would be for the bags to always go with the passenger. When the weather is checked in the hours before the flight a decision will be made if the bags must be bumped. .


On ULH flights the “bad weather” is just something that would not be considered much before departure, not on a 20 hour flight (the Wx at time of departure may/likely to be different to the time of arrival). The destination forecast may not even be valid for the time of arrival depending on when it was issued. With flight times up around 20 hours forecasts will be reissued many times, and literally have many many airports where fuel can be topped up. They will probably need to fly for 12+ hours (north of PEK) or so just to get back below MLW.

Image

from http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=33.9461112 ... 85&SU=mach

Qantas do not use alternates the same way some other airlines do, they will plan say LHR-PER with no destination alternate, just arrival with 70 minutes of fuel. What they do have is an all engines diversion point (DPA). Going SYD to LHR, the last DPA might be something like CPH-LHR (as you can see on the map below the route basically passes overhead CPH), that point would be between HAM and AMS. From that point on they still have a dozen airfields that they could drop into for fuel. LHR itself has CAT 3 capability, you can land there in thick fog.

Image

from http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=58.0279439 ... 85&SU=mach

You would not plan on leaving baggage behind, or on another flight. If there is very strong headwinds on a day, and alternative routes cannot be found (again unlikely on a 20 hr flight), seats would be blocked and some passengers sent via SIN, or protected on other carriers,
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 4:49 pm

If I am paying top dollar to fly non-stop from Australia to London, my bags had better be on the same plane or I would be very pissed. I am taking that flight to save time, and wouldn't want to hear "Sorry, your bags will be here in a few hours." That is simply a non-starter. And if QF is doing any planning on that theory then they are dopes, and I have no doubt that they are not dopes. It's a bogus premise.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4688
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 5:31 pm

Bricktop wrote:
If I am paying top dollar to fly non-stop from Australia to London, my bags had better be on the same plane or I would be very pissed. I am taking that flight to save time, and wouldn't want to hear "Sorry, your bags will be here in a few hours." That is simply a non-starter. And if QF is doing any planning on that theory then they are dopes, and I have no doubt that they are not dopes. It's a bogus premise.


I honestly wouldn't care - having the airline courier the bags to my home or hotel is preferable to me having to schlep 20 kilograms plus myself. But I would be in the minority... the fact is, the bags will travel on board with the passengers as it does on every other flight in the world. I can't see that changing.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17134
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 5:36 pm

Bricktop wrote:
If I am paying top dollar to fly non-stop from Australia to London, my bags had better be on the same plane or I would be very pissed. I am taking that flight to save time, and wouldn't want to hear "Sorry, your bags will be here in a few hours." That is simply a non-starter. And if QF is doing any planning on that theory then they are dopes, and I have no doubt that they are not dopes. It's a bogus premise.


Exactly! Why pay a premium to fly all that way non-stop if your bags might not be with you? There's only one 'dope' putting it forward, and he's swimming against the tide.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:19 pm

Bricktop wrote:
If I am paying top dollar to fly non-stop from Australia to London, my bags had better be on the same plane or I would be very pissed.

How pissed would you be if an airline said they had to block 50 seats and you were one of the unlucky psssengers who could not fly?

How pissed would you be if it had to make a fuel stop and you missed your connecting flight?

This happened fairly often on LAX-SIN with the 787-9. They had to cancel the route. The blocked seats were a disaster.

If there is a cyclone in Asia right in the way of the ideal flight path and the flight has to take a route that is 2-3% longer the aircraft may not enough fuel.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5216
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue May 28, 2019 11:47 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
If I am paying top dollar to fly non-stop from Australia to London, my bags had better be on the same plane or I would be very pissed.

How pissed would you be if an airline said they had to block 50 seats and you were one of the unlucky psssengers who could not fly?

How pissed would you be if it had to make a fuel stop and you missed your connecting flight?

This happened fairly often on LAX-SIN with the 787-9. They had to cancel the route. The blocked seats were a disaster.

If there is a cyclone in Asia right in the way of the ideal flight path and the flight has to take a route that is 2-3% longer the aircraft may not enough fuel.

Indeed, being able to carry the desired load of passengers and bags the vast majority of the time is a problem which will need to be addressed for Project Sunrise to work. But planning to regularly send passenger bags on a different connecting flight which relies on a connection working perfectly (no delays on the SYD-PER flight from ATC, weather, engineering, passenger issues, or a myriad other factors, and then requiring two aircraft being parked in the right place in PER which means no issues with aircraft on gates out of sequence) in order for the bags not to be delayed by 12-24 hours is not the answer to that problem. Specifying an aircraft that can carry the desired load of passengers and bags the vast majority of the time is the answer to that problem. This may be why the initial 300-passenger requirement seems to have subsequently been downplayed in public statements. Could we please now put the baggage transshipment red herring to rest?

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos