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seabosdca
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:49 pm

zeke wrote:
And Alan Joyce has also said it is independent of other fleet plans.


Sometimes CEOs have to say silly things for strategic reasons. :liar: That is just such a silly thing. Of course an order of 10 ULH widebody aircraft will have an impact on the overall fleet plan of an airline that operates 55 widebody aircraft, only 20 of which are currently ~ULH capable.
 
smartplane
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:55 pm

If the 777X family is a serious contender, QF won't be making a decision until test flying, and data becomes readily available, unless Boeing / GE are willing to guarantee performance and delivery, with expensive penalties for misses.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:05 pm

Glad to see that the thread is catching up to facts. As I said, either the B778 or A350CEO will be obsolete by the time they enter the operational phase for this project. Might as well rename it project sunset.
In the meanwhile, QF is procrastinating and by the time they finally wake up, ULH aircraft capable of the journey with a full payload and low fuel burn will be available for BA, VS and virtually all of Europe to start flooding the Australian market with non-stop capacity.
 
wingman
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:11 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Glad to see that the thread is catching up to facts. As I said, either the B778 or A350CEO will be obsolete by the time they enter the operational phase for this project. Might as well rename it project sunset.


Project Sunset, now that's funny right there. As for the 777 and QF, I'd offer up Project Event Horizon.

Oh Qwantas, sigh.
 
moa999
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:56 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As I said, either the B778 or A350CEO will be obsolete by the time they enter the operational phase for this project... with a full payload and low fuel burn will be available for BA, VS and virtually all of Europe to start flooding the.


Always something better just round the corner.
Any ULR of a 359neo or 778neo is always going to be a derivative so not the first sold.

Even though a bunch of Euro airlines might be able to fly direct, it's another matter making money. There's a reason the ME3 are so successful on the route.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:19 am

seabosdca wrote:
zeke wrote:
And Alan Joyce has also said it is independent of other fleet plans.


Sometimes CEOs have to say silly things for strategic reasons. :liar: That is just such a silly thing. Of course an order of 10 ULH widebody aircraft will have an impact on the overall fleet plan of an airline that operates 55 widebody aircraft, only 20 of which are currently ~ULH capable.


And sometimes posters on here say silly things.

QF like most airlines have different aircraft for different market segments. An order for the 777-8 or A350 will not prevent QF from ordering more 787s, A330s, or choosing A350s or 777-9s.

QF will have the capacity overlap between the 787/A330 and the sunrise aircraft. The sunrise aircraft I will no see replacing those 787/A350 aircraft.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:06 am

zeke wrote:
QF like most airlines have different aircraft for different market segments. An order for the 777-8 or A350 will not prevent QF from ordering more 787s, A330s, or choosing A350s or 777-9s.

QF will have the capacity overlap between the 787/A330 and the sunrise aircraft. The sunrise aircraft I will no see replacing those 787/A350 aircraft.


Prevent QF from ordering large widebodies from whichever OEM doesn't win Sunrise? Certainly not.

Make the economics of such an order more difficult? Certainly.

If the Sunrise order ends up as 35K ULRs, I'm sure you'll be happy to tell us about how QF can save money through another order for "normal" A350s for other routes.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:35 am

More rubbish, just pure baseless speculation on your part.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:01 am

Revelation wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
Which then brings you perilously close to the rumoured Ultrafan A350 in ~2025..

Given the terrible run of form of PW, GE and RR, I'm not sure I'd count on a significantly new engine getting it all right the first time.


So far the combi A350 and RR isn’t bad.... #fingerscrossed
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:20 am

I wouldn't surprised if Boeing makes their Project Sunrise 777-8 version the base version of the -8. And if they don't win this competition they might even delay the -8 even further.

With the ME3 orders being in jeopardy it wouldn't make sense to do both a XLR and a XL-LR version.

This could be the reason why Boeing has been quiet about the final 777-8 configuration. They must hope that Qantas will not only pick them of course, but that they won't delay the decission even further.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:04 am

Qantas financials due August 22, what bets that this will see announcement of the Project Sunrise 'winner'?
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:59 am

Momo1435 wrote:
I wouldn't surprised if Boeing makes their Project Sunrise 777-8 version the base version of the -8. And if they don't win this competition they might even delay the -8 even further.

The project sunrise aircraft will not need any modifications such as extra fuel tanks. The 777X standard fuel capacity is absolutely huge.

Boeing has said for quite some time the 777-8 will be a shrink of the 777-9 with the same MTOW, wing and engines. I'm not sure what mods Boeing could do to increase the range of the 777-8. There are no engines or aero tweaks as the 777X will be state of the art when it comes out.

Are you thinking the 777-8 could get a small MTOW bump? In theory the 777-8 could get a small MTOW bump as the lighter fuselage would put less loads on the wing and wingbox compared to the 777-9. The shorter 777-8 also has less fuselage drag so it would climb quicker than the 777-9 at the same takeoff weight. No extra thrust would then be required to satisfy the minimum single engine criteria. Likewise the 777-8 would be landing at a much lower weight so landing gear strength should also be fine. This is clear headroom in every area that is needed. The pavement loading issue is not as big of a problem as some members make out. Obviously the 777-8 taking off at say 360T would be operating from the highest quality airport runways.

I have always believed from.an engineering viewpoint that when there are two fuselage lengths in a family that have extremely high commonality that the shorter aircraft should be able to have a higher MTOW. The shorter aircraft should also have a much greater max payload weight as both aircraft should have the same max landing weight. The difference in empty weight allows for extra payload. This would extract the maximum performance in both aircraft.

This is also why I believe the 787-9 might get the 6T MTOW bump but the 787-10 does not.
 
moa999
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:04 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Qantas financials due August 22, what bets that this will see announcement of the Project Sunrise 'winner'?
I'd say unlikely.. Qantas like to get maximum press, so would think it would be separated.
Top-up 787 order a possibility
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:11 am

RJMAZ wrote:

I have always believed from.an engineering viewpoint that when there are two fuselage lengths in a family that have extremely high commonality that the shorter aircraft should be able to have a higher MTOW. The shorter aircraft should also have a much greater max payload weight as both aircraft should have the same max landing weight. The difference in empty weight allows for extra payload. This would extract the maximum performance in both aircraft.

This is also why I believe the 787-9 might get the 6T MTOW bump but the 787-10 does not.


But often they don't have the same wing and I would expect the 77X to be no different in this regard. The external geometry will likely be the same but there will be gauge differences giving different strengths hence why there are different MZFW for the longer/shorter variants. The 77F has, as far as I know, the same external geometries as the 77L but uses the 77W wing to give the higher payload capability. There would be no point in handicapping the 778 with a higher wing weight than is required.

Fred
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:21 am

flipdewaf wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:

I have always believed from.an engineering viewpoint that when there are two fuselage lengths in a family that have extremely high commonality that the shorter aircraft should be able to have a higher MTOW. The shorter aircraft should also have a much greater max payload weight as both aircraft should have the same max landing weight. The difference in empty weight allows for extra payload. This would extract the maximum performance in both aircraft.

This is also why I believe the 787-9 might get the 6T MTOW bump but the 787-10 does not.


But often they don't have the same wing and I would expect the 77X to be no different in this regard. The external geometry will likely be the same but there will be gauge differences giving different strengths hence why there are different MZFW for the longer/shorter variants. The 77F has, as far as I know, the same external geometries as the 77L but uses the 77W wing to give the higher payload capability. There would be no point in handicapping the 778 with a higher wing weight than is required.

Fred


?? The MTOW of the 77L was only 4t less, before the update. 4t out of 351t does not a new wing make. Clarification please!
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:23 am

777-8 is delayed a bit but I dont have a link.. was announced today at work..
 
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Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:25 am

jagraham wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:

I have always believed from.an engineering viewpoint that when there are two fuselage lengths in a family that have extremely high commonality that the shorter aircraft should be able to have a higher MTOW. The shorter aircraft should also have a much greater max payload weight as both aircraft should have the same max landing weight. The difference in empty weight allows for extra payload. This would extract the maximum performance in both aircraft.

This is also why I believe the 787-9 might get the 6T MTOW bump but the 787-10 does not.


But often they don't have the same wing and I would expect the 77X to be no different in this regard. The external geometry will likely be the same but there will be gauge differences giving different strengths hence why there are different MZFW for the longer/shorter variants. The 77F has, as far as I know, the same external geometries as the 77L but uses the 77W wing to give the higher payload capability. There would be no point in handicapping the 778 with a higher wing weight than is required.

Fred


?? The MTOW of the 77L was only 4t less, before the update. 4t out of 351t does not a new wing make. Clarification please!

What was the difference in MZFW and what drives wing weight?

Fred


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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:32 pm

jagraham wrote:
?? The MTOW of the 77L was only 4t less, before the update. 4t out of 351t does not a new wing make. Clarification please!

Fuel weight in the wing would most likely put less load on the wing than fuselage weight. The weight of the fuel is actually reducing the wing flex.

So it makes sense that the 77L could have a lighter internal structure of the wing than 77F.

For ease of production it would be easier to just keep the same wing and on the shorter fuselage increase the MTOW to use up some of that headroom.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:37 pm

Slightly off topic but, is the 789 uses PER - LHR a standard 789, or has it been modified in some way to increase range? Thanks in advance.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:57 pm

mcg wrote:
Slightly off topic but, is the 789 uses PER - LHR a standard 789, or has it been modified in some way to increase range? Thanks in advance.


Standard 787-9. It trades payload weight for fuel weight.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:01 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
jagraham wrote:
?? The MTOW of the 77L was only 4t less, before the update. 4t out of 351t does not a new wing make. Clarification please!

Fuel weight in the wing would most likely put less load on the wing than fuselage weight. The weight of the fuel is actually reducing the wing flex.

So it makes sense that the 77L could have a lighter internal structure of the wing than 77F.

For ease of production it would be easier to just keep the same wing and on the shorter fuselage increase the MTOW to use up some of that headroom.


That's what I thought Boeing did. They knew the 77L was a niche airplane when they did it, so why spend the extra money? Especially when the percentage change was smaller (a lot of the weight went towards fuel in all the Longer Range family).
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:33 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
I wouldn't surprised if Boeing makes their Project Sunrise 777-8 version the base version of the -8. And if they don't win this competition they might even delay the -8 even further.

The project sunrise aircraft will not need any modifications such as extra fuel tanks. The 777X standard fuel capacity is absolutely huge.

Boeing has said for quite some time the 777-8 will be a shrink of the 777-9 with the same MTOW, wing and engines. I'm not sure what mods Boeing could do to increase the range of the 777-8. There are no engines or aero tweaks as the 777X will be state of the art when it comes out.

Are you thinking the 777-8 could get a small MTOW bump? In theory the 777-8 could get a small MTOW bump as the lighter fuselage would put less loads on the wing and wingbox compared to the 777-9. The shorter 777-8 also has less fuselage drag so it would climb quicker than the 777-9 at the same takeoff weight. No extra thrust would then be required to satisfy the minimum single engine criteria. Likewise the 777-8 would be landing at a much lower weight so landing gear strength should also be fine. This is clear headroom in every area that is needed. The pavement loading issue is not as big of a problem as some members make out. Obviously the 777-8 taking off at say 360T would be operating from the highest quality airport runways.

I'm not an engineer, I don't have any knowledge on (or even care) what Boeing should do exactly. But from a logical point of view I don't think that Boeing will offer a version of the 777-8 which doesn't meet the requirements that Qantas has set. So Boeing will have to do something. I see it as changing the ME3-fied 777X into a Qantasfied 777X when it comes to the 777-8.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:06 pm

Stitch wrote:
mcg wrote:
Slightly off topic but, is the 789 uses PER - LHR a standard 789, or has it been modified in some way to increase range? Thanks in advance.


Standard 787-9. It trades payload weight for fuel weight.



Thanks for the info.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:11 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
jagraham wrote:
?? The MTOW of the 77L was only 4t less, before the update. 4t out of 351t does not a new wing make. Clarification please!

Fuel weight in the wing would most likely put less load on the wing than fuselage weight. The weight of the fuel is actually reducing the wing flex.

So it makes sense that the 77L could have a lighter internal structure of the wing than 77F.

For ease of production it would be easier to just keep the same wing and on the shorter fuselage increase the MTOW to use up some of that headroom.


I guess that's often the Dilemma, cheaper to design/make or cheaper to operate through reduced weight. Pay now or pay later...

Fred
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:23 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I guess that's often the Dilemma, cheaper to design/make or cheaper to operate through reduced weight. Pay now or pay later..

Any aircraft taking off below MTOW is technically carrying dead weight compared to an aircraft fully optimised for that flight.

Now if that extra weight is actually used to handle more loads allow for a higher MTOW then the airline is getting extra capability. As the length difference between the 777-8/9 is much less than the 777-200/300 I expext the 777-8 to be a simple shrink.

It would not taking much for Boeing to do a finite element analysis to determine how much headroom the 777-8 would have with the stronger 777-9 wing. They could be conservative and use half of this headroom and then work out what the MTOW could then be increased to.

I am 100% certain that with the same payload weight in both the 777-8 and 777-9 the wing load and wingbox load would be significantly lower on the 777-8. It should easily be able to get a 360T MTOW.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:01 am

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
777-8 is delayed a bit but I dont have a link.. was announced today at work..
That's news. Any more details?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:20 am

RJMAZ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I guess that's often the Dilemma, cheaper to design/make or cheaper to operate through reduced weight. Pay now or pay later..

Any aircraft taking off below MTOW is technically carrying dead weight compared to an aircraft fully optimised for that flight.

Agreed, but that weight is not necessarily in the wings.
RJMAZ wrote:

Now if that extra weight is actually used to handle more loads allow for a higher MTOW then the airline is getting extra capability.

But the limit load for a transport category aircraft is generally defined by the MZFW and not MTOW.
RJMAZ wrote:
As the length difference between the 777-8/9 is much less than the 777-200/300 I expext the 777-8 to be a simple shrink.

I thought the difference between the 8/9 was the same as the 200/300? maybe I'm not concentrating. If the 777-8 OWE is expected to be ~20t lower than the 778-9 then we would have the PAX variant of the 778 with a payload of 90+tons. The only way I can see that happening is if the plan is to have 778s in service as people movers with a dedicated pax->freight conversion coming later.
RJMAZ wrote:

It would not taking much for Boeing to do a finite element analysis to determine how much headroom the 777-8 would have with the stronger 777-9 wing. They could be conservative and use half of this headroom and then work out what the MTOW could then be increased to.

The assumption of course is that the wing strength is what is limiting MTOW and I don't see why it would be.
RJMAZ wrote:

I am 100% certain that with the same payload weight in both the 777-8 and 777-9 the wing load and wingbox load would be significantly lower on the 777-8. It should easily be able to get a 360T MTOW.
Sure it would be lower but there are a multitude of other things to think about outside the wingbox too.

Fred
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:22 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I thought the difference between the 8/9 was the same as the 200/300? maybe I'm not concentrating.

777-8 to 777-9 is a 6.9m length difference.
777-200 to 777-300 is a 10.1m length difference.

As a result the CASM will be closer between the 777-8 and 777-9. I don't think the 777-8 will be as much of a niche aircraft like the 777-200LR.

flipdewaf wrote:
The assumption of course is that the wing strength is what is limiting MTOW and I don't see why it would be.

Engine thrust to maintain climb rate at single engine out would be the other big limit. The 777-8 however would have a better lift to drag ratio than the 777-9. At the same 351T MTOW the 777-8 might climb 3-4% quicker than the 777-9 at the same thrust level. The 777-8 at 360T would climb slower than at 351T but it might still climb quicker than the 777-9 at 351T.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:17 pm

Not really 'news', more an update of things still being the same:

https://centreforaviation.com/news/qant ... 020-927580

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, speaking at the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation & Corporate Travel Summit, stated (07-Aug-2019) the carrier "will make a call" on the Project Sunrise initiative by the end of 2019
.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:25 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
I don't think the 777-8 will be as much of a niche aircraft like the 777-200LR.

Here's hoping... though as of now, the even the pax 77L had actually managed to attract far more interests (in terms of number of carriers who went on to order), than the 778. :(

The rival A359ULR is essentially a defunct product at this point, vis-a-vis a 280T standard A359, so wouldn't be surprised if SQ remains the only airline to ever operate it.


In sum, it just seems like airliners of this nature are doomed to be "niche" despite all of the OEMs' precautions; in these, the days when everyday 200seaters can realistically operate 16-18hr routes profitably.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:22 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
In sum, it just seems like airliners of this nature are doomed to be "niche" despite all of the OEMs' precautions; in these, the days when everyday 200seaters can realistically operate 16-18hr routes profitably.


Great points LAX-

Some want a ULH that can circumvent the earth, no worries that even with the trade winds all city pairs are no further apart than half way around the world.

No OEM is going to spend billions on a plane that serves no useful purpose, because no airline would buy such a plane
 
Bricktop
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:28 pm

You mean circumnavigate?
 
tealnz
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:39 pm

The AirCurrent is reporting that Boeing is mothballing development of the 778: https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/boeing-mothballing-development-of-ultra-long-range-777-8-777x/ This might help explain yesterday's Aviation Analyst story https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/08/13/exclusive-airbus-preparing-to-launch-a350-1000ulr/ that Airbus is close to formal launch of an ULR version of the A35K, with several airline customers "in final talks".

Hard to see Boeing would do this if they were still in contention for the Project Sunrise order. How do we read this: a win for the A35K on technical/commercial grounds? AJ lost patience with delays in 779 development/testing? Boeing needing to cut back on investment pending MAX return to service and 797 launch?
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:51 pm

tealnz wrote:
Boeing needing to cut back on investment pending MAX return to service and 797 launch?


The MAX fiasco is certainly hitting Boeing hard. Aside from dropping/mothballing the 778, in another thread it's claimed all engineers that were working on NMA have now been moved to MAX which will impact that significantly.
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Stitch
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:47 am

tealnz wrote:
ng would do this if they were still in contention for the Project Sunrise order. How do we read this: a win for the A35K on technical/commercial grounds? AJ lost patience with delays in 779 development/testing? Boeing needing to cut back on investment pending MAX return to service and 797 launch?


Probably a couple of factors:

1) Etihad intending to cancel their 777-8s.
2) Emirates either cancelling their 777-8s or converting them to 777-9s and/or 787s. They may or may not take A350-1000ULRs in place of the 777-8s.
3) Qantas choosing the A350-1000ULR for Project Sunrise.
4) Qatar either also signaling their intent to cancel/convert their 777-8 orders as the only customer, or being convinced to do so by Boeing, who do not want to invest in the program anymore for only 10 deliveries (QR's current order book of the model).
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:38 am

scbriml wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Boeing needing to cut back on investment pending MAX return to service and 797 launch?


The MAX fiasco is certainly hitting Boeing hard. Aside from dropping/mothballing the 778, in another thread it's claimed all engineers that were working on NMA have now been moved to MAX which will impact that significantly.

Let's not get ahead of events.

What was written was:

T4thH wrote:
It is not only this, what is stopped or is on hold. Boeing seems to have stopped already everything, with exception of to get the B777-X into the air. All engineers seems now to work on the B737 Max to fix all the issues. In one German news (an interview) it was recently announced, also the NMA program is on hold and all engineers are working now on the B737 Max program. And only few of the Boeing staff still believes the NMA program will be restarted, when the MAX issues have been solved.

Ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429183&p=21586931&hilit=nma#p21586931

So we have a member reporting what they understood from a TV news show, with no link to verify.

The 777x thing is also not confirmed, but at least we have a link, and it is from a well known aviation media member with a known track record.
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:36 am

Reuters is also reporting this now.

https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SL2N25B00H
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:11 am

Stitch wrote:
4) Qatar either also signaling their intent to cancel/convert their 777-8 orders as the only customer, or being convinced to do so by Boeing, who do not want to invest in the program anymore for only 10 deliveries (QR's current order book of the model).


I don't think Qatar particularly cares what airframes it takes, as long as it has plenty on order at all times from both Boeing and Airbus. I'm sure they'd be just fine with converting the 778 order to either 789 or 779.

Aircraft orders, at this point, are a substantial chunk of why the West has stayed neutral in the ongoing spat between the al-Thani family and the House of Saud, rather than just siding with the princes with the most oil. Qatar Airways is a strategic geopolitical project much more than a business.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:12 am

I wonder if it's possible Boeing submitted a 779 variant instead, I feel like that would be known if that had happened though.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:35 am

seabosdca wrote:
Stitch wrote:
4) Qatar either also signaling their intent to cancel/convert their 777-8 orders as the only customer, or being convinced to do so by Boeing, who do not want to invest in the program anymore for only 10 deliveries (QR's current order book of the model).


I don't think Qatar particularly cares what airframes it takes, as long as it has plenty on order at all times from both Boeing and Airbus. I'm sure they'd be just fine with converting the 778 order to either 789 or 779.

Aircraft orders, at this point, are a substantial chunk of why the West has stayed neutral in the ongoing spat between the al-Thani family and the House of Saud, rather than just siding with the princes with the most oil. Qatar Airways is a strategic geopolitical project much more than a business.


Well there is also a huge U.S base in Qatar that may have something to do with it.
 
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:37 am

ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if it's possible Boeing submitted a 779 variant instead, I feel like that would be known if that had happened though.

On what we know about the 779, it is hard to see what Boeing could do to give it the legs to do MEL-JFK or SYD-LHR.
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flee
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:07 am

tullamarine wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if it's possible Boeing submitted a 779 variant instead, I feel like that would be known if that had happened though.

On what we know about the 779, it is hard to see what Boeing could do to give it the legs to do MEL-JFK or SYD-LHR.

If they did, it would probably be a very premium configuration with loads of space like exercise area and maybe even a bar/dining area. Pax will return to their flat bed seats when they don't need to eat, move around or go to the washroom.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:18 am

So I guess the Freighter will likely be based on the -9X instead of the -8X?
Or the -8X becomes solely a Freighter once 777F orders dwindle to the point a production shift becomes viable?
 
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enzo011
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am

I found this an interesting part of the article,

Boeing’s proposal included a “compelling option” to help deal with the 777-8 delay because it was keen to the stay in the race, according to a source with knowledge of the matter who was not authorized to speak publicly.


So any ideas what this option would be?
 
StTim
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:02 am

Now that language sounds like it comes from a Boeing source. For a Qantas source to use compelling would imply they are sold on it and for an insider that would be a huge leak to give.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:11 am

enzo011 wrote:

So any ideas what this option would be?


Better deals on future Dreamliners (since QF are probably going to order a bunch to replace some of their A330 fleet), or perhaps deals on being an early MoM/797 customer (Qantas could use it on Transcon/Trans-Tasman and also on flights to lower-yield Asian cities and/or flights from smaller Australian cities). Both would be pretty compelling for QF.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:20 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
enzo011 wrote:

So any ideas what this option would be?


Better deals on future Dreamliners (since QF are probably going to order a bunch to replace some of their A330 fleet), or perhaps deals on being an early MoM/797 customer (Qantas could use it on Transcon/Trans-Tasman and also on flights to lower-yield Asian cities and/or flights from smaller Australian cities). Both would be pretty compelling for QF.


That would be some weird thinking from Boeing. You want to launch in 2022, well we can provide the aircraft you need in 2024 (maybe) but in the meantime have some short range smaller aircraft that has nothing to do with the order you are asking about. Let's hope that another airline doesn't use the competitor to launch the routes you wanted to to get a first mover advantage.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:34 am

enzo011 wrote:
That would be some weird thinking from Boeing. You want to launch in 2022, well we can provide the aircraft you need in 2024 (maybe) but in the meantime have some short range smaller aircraft that has nothing to do with the order you are asking about. Let's hope that another airline doesn't use the competitor to launch the routes you wanted to to get a first mover advantage.


The only cities in Europe with sufficient yield and demand to support direct flights to and from Sydney/Melbourne are London, Paris and Frankfurt. I doubt that LH, AF or BA will buy a small subfleet of somewhat specialized aircraft just for those particular routes (where else could they go with such planes? Tahiti and Auckland lack the yields). BA would probably codeshare with Qantas. I doubt Virgin Atlantic have the resources to challenge Qantas on such routes either (and could they achieve enough yields?). Not to mention, all the European airlines have more profitable alternative opportunities that don't require specialized aircraft.

Admittedly this presumes it wouldn't be costless for a European airline to convert and A350-1000 into a ULR and then reconfigure the cabin into an appropriately high-yielding one for the route. This presumption seems fair to me though. Reconfiguring cabins is expensive, and airlines don't really like super-specialized subfleets.

It makes more sense, at least from what I've seen, for the European airlines to just codeshare on QF's metal. Or if they want to fly direct to Australia, Perth is at least theoretically feasible with current technology and standard LOPAs (at least for LH and maybe AF, but VX and BA would find things more difficult).
 
dare100em
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:34 am

scbriml wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Boeing needing to cut back on investment pending MAX return to service and 797 launch?


The MAX fiasco is certainly hitting Boeing hard. Aside from dropping/mothballing the 778, in another thread it's claimed all engineers that were working on NMA have now been moved to MAX which will impact that significantly.


That doesen't make ANY sense until they change the mecanics/structure of the MAX considerably. That would mean a new derivate or soemthing like that.

What will - let's say - an CFM-simulation engineer (how designes the air flow around a wing by simulation software like e.g. ANSYS CFX and works in team with the guy(s) designing the wing) do at the MAX :?: Make a new wing? :airplane:

Probably the software-guys where all going to the MAX, but even that seems to fare-fetched.

When I get it right, the 797 team is still working [on the 797] while the programm head was switched to the MAX. Actually that would make much more sense.
Last edited by dare100em on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: Qantas saying it is almost ready to select Project Sunrise aircraft

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:35 am

enzo011 wrote:
That would be some weird thinking from Boeing. You want to launch in 2022, well we can provide the aircraft you need in 2024 (maybe) but in the meantime have some short range smaller aircraft that has nothing to do with the order you are asking about. Let's hope that another airline doesn't use the competitor to launch the routes you wanted to to get a first mover advantage.


So offer cheap-as-chips or leased 789s or 77Ls with guaranteed buy-back price so QF can trade them in for 778s when they're available? I don't see what else Boeing can do to try and keep in with QF.
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