jetsetterusa
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AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:05 pm

I been seeing a lot of widebodys for AA flying into SFO like MIA-SFO 763 PHL-SFO 332, DFW-SFO 787... Thats all i can see for now but i was wondering why SFO? OW does not have many flights there so i cant see the feed on that end? It could be as simple as anything but seeing what you guys think?
Last edited by jetsetterusa on Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wn676
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:09 pm

jetsetterusa wrote:
I been seeing a lot of widebodys for AA flying into SFO for AA like MIA-SFO 763 PHL-SFO 332, DFW-SFO 787... Thats all i can see for now but i was wondering why SFO? OW does not have many flights there so i cant see the feed on that end? It could be as simple as anything but seeing what you guys think?


They’re also planning the 77W on MIA-SFO this December.
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Lemieux
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:17 pm

AA 1260 DFW-SFO today was a 772
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Bigant0408
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:24 pm

I know for PHL at least they are using the 332 to transfer more passengers to Europe thru PHL. 332 also been used for PHL-LAX. So I'd assume its the same reason for DFW and MIA service on widebodies
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babastud
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:54 pm

Yes this happens at AA, and DL also from time to time. The reasons are demand from SFO and LAX to Local markets, Europe and beyond and vice-versa, especially in the summer months. They like to route through east coast hubs. Plus there are usually premium seating or international config on the wide bodies which suit the premium demand coming to and from California. Gate space can also max out at SFO and LAX so wide bodies are actually more suitable for maximizing passenger demand at these constrained airports.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:56 pm

SFO is a wealthy city with potential for yields. AA flies the 321T to SFO as well, and while not a widebody, has lay flat in F and J.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
TWA1985
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:05 pm

I doubt ORD will see a widebody to SFO seeing as it’s a hub to hub route for UA. But a guy can dream. lol
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steex
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:54 pm

TWA1985 wrote:
I doubt ORD will see a widebody to SFO seeing as it’s a hub to hub route for UA. But a guy can dream. lol


No need to dream, the 788 will show up on SFO-ORD for a couple months in late fall.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:38 pm

Aside from the above, the carrier squeezes more use out of that aircraft by doing a hub-spoke turn out to the coast. Its a win win for all!
 
Fastphilly
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:49 pm

jetsetterusa wrote:
I been seeing a lot of widebodys for AA flying into SFO like MIA-SFO 763 PHL-SFO 332, DFW-SFO 787... Thats all i can see for now but i was wondering why SFO? OW does not have many flights there so i cant see the feed on that end? It could be as simple as anything but seeing what you guys think?


True SFO isn’t a OW hub for AA, but many OW foreign carriers do serve SFO, not to mention the Bay Area CSA is 4th or 5th largest in the country with a GDP that is eclipsed by only NY and LA areas. Lots of premium traffic.
 
Yonderlust
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:35 pm

Fastphilly wrote:
jetsetterusa wrote:
I been seeing a lot of widebodys for AA flying into SFO like MIA-SFO 763 PHL-SFO 332, DFW-SFO 787... Thats all i can see for now but i was wondering why SFO? OW does not have many flights there so i cant see the feed on that end? It could be as simple as anything but seeing what you guys think?


True SFO isn’t a OW hub for AA, but many OW foreign carriers do serve SFO, not to mention the Bay Area CSA is 4th or 5th largest in the country with a GDP that is eclipsed by only NY and LA areas. Lots of premium traffic.


I'm a neophyte...and way too many acronyms in the modern world. What is "OW"??
 
Fastphilly
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:38 pm

OW= One World Alliance
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:19 pm

Acrtually, AA flies wide-bodies to SFO because LAX does not have enough widebody gates. AA would rather send those aircraft to LAX but since they can't, SFO is the next best thing.
 
JDAirCEO
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:31 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Acrtually, AA flies wide-bodies to SFO because LAX does not have enough widebody gates. AA would rather send those aircraft to LAX but since they can't, SFO is the next best thing.


That's not totally accurate and is for sure not why widebodies are sent to SFO. Airline economics and logistics just dont work that way, although it would be a lot more fun if they did.

LAX is gate restrained and even further widebody gate restrained but they are nowhere near the widebody limit at the moment. As an example, in previous schedules DFW-LAX had a widebody every other flight but now its mostly A321s. There is a plenty room if demand increases again... or spirit loads a bunch of flights on that route and needs to be squashed.
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usflyer msp
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:56 am

JDAirCEO wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Acrtually, AA flies wide-bodies to SFO because LAX does not have enough widebody gates. AA would rather send those aircraft to LAX but since they can't, SFO is the next best thing.


As an example, in previous schedules DFW-LAX had a widebody every other flight but now its mostly A321s. There is a plenty room if demand increases again... or spirit loads a bunch of flights on that route and needs to be squashed.


That was back before AA split some of it's WB gates at LAX T4 into 2 narrowbody gates. They simply don't have the room for alot of domestic wide-bodies at LAX anymore. The DFWLAX 789 and the PHLLAX 332 both remote park at the hangar and bus passengers to the terminal due to a lack of gates and and AA does not want to add to that mess so off to SFO the wide-bodies go.
 
B752OS
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:44 am

I'd imagine AA connects at least a decent amount of South American and Caribbean traffic through MIA from SFO.
 
Fastphilly
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:59 am

B752OS wrote:
I'd imagine AA connects at least a decent amount of South American and Caribbean traffic through MIA from SFO.


Most definitely
 
AA747123
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:07 am

AA Flies wide body because of gate usage at SFO. SFO allocates gates every June based on the number of seats a particular carrier offers. Not so many years ago AA flew wide body SFO-JFK/DFW/MIA/ORD last year AA was all narrow body at SFO. AA had to give up more gates this year. AA will stick with wide body at SFO so they don't lose any more gates.
 
GordonCC
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:21 am

If AA has so much demand on SFO-MIA then why does UA sit back so much on this route?
 
jmc1975
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:23 am

Let's not forget that back in the mid/late 1980s during the peak of AA's greatness, SFO (although never a hub for AA) saw multiple DC10 and 767 flights per day to DFW, ORD, JFK and HNL. TWA also had a number of L1011s and 767s flying into SFO per day as well.
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:53 am

Demand and to increase utilization.
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dfwjim1
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:08 pm

Lemieux wrote:
AA 1260 DFW-SFO today was a 772


I was on this flight. Usually I fly MIA - SFO nonstop on AA but I flew FLL-DFW-SFO to experience the 788 but alas AA substituted a 777 for the 787 which was a bummer for me.
 
jayunited
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:18 pm

GordonCC wrote:
If AA has so much demand on SFO-MIA then why does UA sit back so much on this route?


Its not just SFO UA takes a back seat to AA at MIA from every single one of our hubs. Yesterday AA operated 5 nonstop flights including one wide body on MIA-SFO-MIA UA operated just one flight on a 738, UA is nonexistent on LAX-MIA-LAX, DEN-MIA-DEN, or IAD-MIA-IAD. From ORD UA waivers between 2-3 daily flights however the downside is many of those flights are on CRJ-700s, even out of EWR on EWR-MIA-EWR UA is operating some flights with E170s and again a maximum of 3 daily flights.

Kirby has shown in certain domestic markets he is willing to take on the competition and fight for a larger piece of marketshare however when it come to MIA and to some extent FLL nothing has changed since Kirby's arrival at UA. UA still refuses to challenge AA from any of our hubs on flights to MIA. Even if you take a look at SFO-FLL, UA again has one flight B6 operates three. The only airport in Florida that UA has grown ever so slightly since Kirby's arrival is MCO. For years UA has been in decline all across Florida I hope this will change in the future and we will fight AA, B6 and even DL for a larger piece of of the Floridian marketshare.
 
Josh32121
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:45 pm

I think some of y'all are overthinking it. SFO generates a ton of O&D demand on its own as do DFW, PHL, and MIA. It's perfectly logical that there'd be increased capacity during the peak summer travel season for already busy links between SFO and AA's large hubs. Sure, some passengers may connect onward to other regional destinations or other continents, but it shouldn't be a shock that they can fill a widebody cross-country to/from a west-coast business and population center. If anything, perhaps the limited overall capacity of the 321Ts operating JFK-SFO shifts some less premium traffic (willing to take a connection) to the PHL and DFW legs.
 
blink182
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:08 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
JDAirCEO wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Acrtually, AA flies wide-bodies to SFO because LAX does not have enough widebody gates. AA would rather send those aircraft to LAX but since they can't, SFO is the next best thing.


As an example, in previous schedules DFW-LAX had a widebody every other flight but now its mostly A321s. There is a plenty room if demand increases again... or spirit loads a bunch of flights on that route and needs to be squashed.


That was back before AA split some of it's WB gates at LAX T4 into 2 narrowbody gates. They simply don't have the room for alot of domestic wide-bodies at LAX anymore. The DFWLAX 789 and the PHLLAX 332 both remote park at the hangar and bus passengers to the terminal due to a lack of gates and and AA does not want to add to that mess so off to SFO the wide-bodies go.


You realize this argument is like Delta flying a wide body to DFW because AUS is short on gate space, and then doubling the distance between AUS and DFW, right? And then for those same pax to connect between LAX and SFO that take up seats that could be used for premium pax as driving is 6-8 hours each way? LAX ops have nothing to do with SFO unless you’re dealing with low yielding pax or mileage burners who are connecting in AA/OW through SFO on excess space, which is a nightmare given that one has to reclear security. If given a choice, nobody in their right mind would connect through SFO on a oneworld itinerary involving AA because the set up is inefficient. I can assure you that taking a bus from a hardstand at LAX is quicker and more pleasant than flying between SFO and LAX, where pax will still have to bus to the eagle’s nest remote terminal.

AA has almost always had a wide body presence at SFO, which makes sense given how much premium traffic and tourism is in the ares. This is nothing new for AA.
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usflyer msp
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:44 pm

blink182 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
JDAirCEO wrote:

As an example, in previous schedules DFW-LAX had a widebody every other flight but now its mostly A321s. There is a plenty room if demand increases again... or spirit loads a bunch of flights on that route and needs to be squashed.


That was back before AA split some of it's WB gates at LAX T4 into 2 narrowbody gates. They simply don't have the room for alot of domestic wide-bodies at LAX anymore. The DFWLAX 789 and the PHLLAX 332 both remote park at the hangar and bus passengers to the terminal due to a lack of gates and and AA does not want to add to that mess so off to SFO the wide-bodies go.


You realize this argument is like Delta flying a wide body to DFW because AUS is short on gate space, and then doubling the distance between AUS and DFW, right? And then for those same pax to connect between LAX and SFO that take up seats that could be used for premium pax as driving is 6-8 hours each way? LAX ops have nothing to do with SFO unless you’re dealing with low yielding pax or mileage burners who are connecting in AA/OW through SFO on excess space, which is a nightmare given that one has to reclear security. If given a choice, nobody in their right mind would connect through SFO on a oneworld itinerary involving AA because the set up is inefficient. I can assure you that taking a bus from a hardstand at LAX is quicker and more pleasant than flying between SFO and LAX, where pax will still have to bus to the eagle’s nest remote terminal.

AA has almost always had a wide body presence at SFO, which makes sense given how much premium traffic and tourism is in the ares. This is nothing new for AA.


That is not my argument. I am not talking about people connecting at SFO. I am just saying that if there was space available, AA would send those widebodies on domestic runs to LAX in between intercontinental flights. Since they cannot, SFO is the next best market for them.
 
TWA1985
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:57 pm

steex wrote:
TWA1985 wrote:
I doubt ORD will see a widebody to SFO seeing as it’s a hub to hub route for UA. But a guy can dream. lol


No need to dream, the 788 will show up on SFO-ORD for a couple months in late fall.


This has to be the first time AA has operated a widebody between ORD and SFO in quite some time. Can anyone confirm when the last widebody was operated on this route???
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DocLightning
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:32 pm

TWA1985 wrote:
I doubt ORD will see a widebody to SFO seeing as it’s a hub to hub route for UA. But a guy can dream. lol


Au Contraire. AA is planning it. UA does it. To answer your question, the more SFO-ORD flights there are, the more sense it makes to start consolidating some of them into twin-aisle aircraft, especially since those aircraft are in the AA fleet and need to be used. There are many efficiency advantages that WBs have over NBs (but the opposite is true, also) and so if you can justify using a WB, it may well make sense.
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washingtonflyer
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:00 pm

I'm thinking that part of the WB game is to maximize profit and revenue off of the paid fares up front. I used to have access to CASM for various aircraft - A321 being the likely candidate v. 763 and A330.. I'm sure the CASM for the wide body is a fair amount higher, but the revenue potential of 30 J class seats versus 16 in the A321 has to help reduces the difference.

Also, I wonder if AA is able to take advantage of wide body cargo business to/from SFO that can't be done with a narrowbody. I doubt it, but there might be some opportunistic chances.

Question: do airlines like AA have the ability to staff a widebody over a domestic route differently than for an international route? For example, there might be 12 FAs on a PHL-LHR flight. Can they/do they reduce that to, say, 8 on a domestic run?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:03 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Question: do airlines like AA have the ability to staff a widebody over a domestic route differently than for an international route? For example, there might be 12 FAs on a PHL-LHR flight. Can they/do they reduce that to, say, 8 on a domestic run?

Pretty sure it would be based on the seat count of the plane, so if only 8 are needed based on the seating capacity of the plane, then yes. Otherwise no. Unless for some reason there's a contract with the flight attendants stating otherwise.
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FSDan
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:31 pm

TWA1985 wrote:
This has to be the first time AA has operated a widebody between ORD and SFO in quite some time. Can anyone confirm when the last widebody was operated on this route???


Probably back in the late 2000s or very early 2010s... I remember AA used to fly a daily 763 on ORD-SFO, back when the rest of the flights were M80s and 757s (no 738s at ORD at that time).
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Fastphilly
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:17 pm

jayunited wrote:
GordonCC wrote:
If AA has so much demand on SFO-MIA then why does UA sit back so much on this route?


Its not just SFO UA takes a back seat to AA at MIA from every single one of our hubs. Yesterday AA operated 5 nonstop flights including one wide body on MIA-SFO-MIA UA operated just one flight on a 738, UA is nonexistent on LAX-MIA-LAX, DEN-MIA-DEN, or IAD-MIA-IAD. From ORD UA waivers between 2-3 daily flights however the downside is many of those flights are on CRJ-700s, even out of EWR on EWR-MIA-EWR UA is operating some flights with E170s and again a maximum of 3 daily flights.

Kirby has shown in certain domestic markets he is willing to take on the competition and fight for a larger piece of marketshare however when it come to MIA and to some extent FLL nothing has changed since Kirby's arrival at UA. UA still refuses to challenge AA from any of our hubs on flights to MIA. Even if you take a look at SFO-FLL, UA again has one flight B6 operates three. The only airport in Florida that UA has grown ever so slightly since Kirby's arrival is MCO. For years UA has been in decline all across Florida I hope this will change in the future and we will fight AA, B6 and even DL for a larger piece of of the Floridian marketshare.


UA doesn’t have onward connections to locations in the Caribbean from South Florida. I can assure you the larger percentage of passengers on those AA flights from MIA to SFO originated south of MIA. The demand from the Northern California region to MIA isn’t that large because of lack of business and cultural ties. Leisure and tropical vacationers from the West Coast overwhelmingly will choose Hawaii and Mexico and if they do trek out towards Miami they are getting on a cruise ship or connecting in MIA on a AA flight to the hundreds of Caribbean resorts. UA has to solely depend on MIA O&D for their flight.
 
N649DL
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:50 pm

Not surprising except the ORD and PHL WB action. MIA-SFO was a long time 763 route and JFK-SFO was 762 for years.
 
AA321T
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Re: AA and SFO widebodys!

Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:19 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
Question: do airlines like AA have the ability to staff a widebody over a domestic route differently than for an international route? For example, there might be 12 FAs on a PHL-LHR flight. Can they/do they reduce that to, say, 8 on a domestic run?

Yes, the 777-300 for instance has 13 FA's on international routes but only 10 on domestic. Same goes with 772, 787, 767, 757, and even some 737 and 319 routes.

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