kimimm19
Topic Author
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:07 am

I find it interesting that after a search of this forum, there hasn't really been any talk of this.

Air Canada has:

Aircraft | In service | Orders

Boeing 787-8 | 8 | —
Boeing 787-9 | 27 | 2

and apparently 10 options for the 789.

With the way they have invested in the 787 and people say that the 78X is a atlantic CASM monster, then why would AC not get a few where the 77W sardine cans are a bit too much?
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:29 am

You still get used A333 as AC is trying to reduce CAPEX.

But in the long run I would say 78K is likely.

Michael
 
pabloeing
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:33 am

78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 980
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:50 am

pabloeing wrote:
78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years


Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:
 
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keesje
Posts: 12943
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:36 am

If Asia isn't growing / important that would bew a great option!
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
chonetsao
Posts: 252
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:48 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years


Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:


And that is the greatest news for us who dislike selfish people kept the window open when we wanted to rest or watch a film without reflections on the screen.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:43 am

AC's A330's aren't that new, but they are not that old either. They seem to like the plane and I thought they were going to order a few more, or get some secondhand. I can see AC ordering more 787s in general as a solution to the 767-300ER fleet at Rouge. Those are some very old 767s and at some point they will need to be replaced. The 787-8 or even the -9 will be it, opening up the possibility of a -10 order for mainline AC.
 
HJM
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:21 pm

Ben Smith said earlier this year that B787 options would not be exercised, no new long-range routes would be launched and that route consolidation or even capacity reduction would take place in the 4th quarter.
 
NZ321
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:26 pm

I have no idea about AC's profitability or debt equity ratios or any of that. I can only say that yes, I would have thought the 78J would have been logical but it may be just too much capacity for Air Canada at the moment, given previously reported comments. Seems they may need to trim the unprofitable components from the network and do some consolidation after a significant period of growth.
Plane mad!
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:23 pm

chonetsao wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years


Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:


And that is the greatest news for us who dislike selfish people kept the window open when we wanted to rest or watch a film without reflections on the screen.

One has to remember simple science here, when that far north, the sun is far south in the sky regardless of what time of year. Then you also have to remember that most of Greenland is to the north of the NATs so even with a window open there will be no direct sunlight. That means if you want to sleep bring something to cover your eyes with and if you want to watch TV turn the brightness up.
HJM wrote:
Ben Smith said earlier this year that B787 options would not be exercised, no new long-range routes would be launched and that route consolidation or even capacity reduction would take place in the 4th quarter.
The one thing to remember going forward with any thing Ben said is that he no longer will work there.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
Newbiepilot
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:33 pm

Air Canada has 19 777-300ERs that they use on many high capacity Transatlantic flights. With these planes being relatively new, I doubt Air Canada needs more high capacity planes. The 450 seat high density 777-300ERs used on routes like YUL-CDG are already a CASM monster.
 
Newbiepilot
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:36 pm

keesje wrote:
If Asia isn't growing / important that would bew a great option!


Why? Air Canada already has a combined fleet of about 60 787s/777s. They have no shortage of planes in their network for transpacific operations. They have plenty of 777s and 787s flying Transatlantic routes where their range is not needed at all.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:01 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
If Asia isn't growing / important that would bew a great option!


Why? Air Canada already has a combined fleet of about 60 787s/777s. They have no shortage of planes in their network for transpacific operations. They have plenty of 777s and 787s flying Transatlantic routes where their range is not needed at all.


Investing billions in a fleet of 300 seaters that cannot do Asia with normal cargo might be a smart business strategy longer term. Or it might not be a smart business strategy longer term. Flexibility / cargo revenue would be a consideration. Network people could tell us.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bmacleod
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 pm

Possible within 5 -10 years at best. As stated above the 77Ws are only 8-10 years old and won't be replaced anytime soon.

Then you have recent addition of more A333s could this mean AC may be looking at the NEO in a few years or perhaps even the A359? :stirthepot:
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:17 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years


Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:


I can tell you from experience that it’s not an issue at all.

“Imagine” seems to indicate you haven’t been on the 787 and you’re complaining about something you’ve only theorized about.
SuperTwin
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:36 pm

chonetsao wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
78X will be the king in the atlantic....only need a few years


Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:


And that is the greatest news for us who dislike selfish people kept the window open when we wanted to rest or watch a film without reflections on the screen.


Versus selfish people who decide at noon that it’s nappy time and they demand you close the shade so they can be accommodated. Geesh - why even have windows then?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:25 pm

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
If Asia isn't growing / important that would bew a great option!


Why? Air Canada already has a combined fleet of about 60 787s/777s. They have no shortage of planes in their network for transpacific operations. They have plenty of 777s and 787s flying Transatlantic routes where their range is not needed at all.


Investing billions in a fleet of 300 seaters that cannot do Asia with normal cargo might be a smart business strategy longer term. Or it might not be a smart business strategy longer term. Flexibility / cargo revenue would be a consideration. Network people could tell us.


Then they probably should have never ordered their fleet of A330s? Every plane doesn’t have to do every mission. 787-10 range exceeds A330 range.
 
HJM
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:01 pm

Yes, it's true that Ben is leaving AC but likely his legacy will continue for a while at least. I recall hearing the B787-10 question at a meeting once and the answer was unclear, perhaps a future consideration may be the right response. 4 A330's should come along, not sure if/when. Apparently the preferred aircraft choice for YUL to Europe routes. Ben said that the B789 was "designed for Air Canada longhaul" but no options would be exercised. I note some capacity reduction taking place in the winter schedule, specifically AC7/8 going from 450 seat B777 to 298 seat B789 and AC854/855 from 450 seat B777 to 400 seat B777.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:43 pm

Michael Rousseau said that no options were going to be exercised now, but he noted that this was only in the short term future. While most 789 routes could easily fill a 787-10 in the summer, year round there aren't as many, making it a less flexible platform. By my analysis, they should be pretty good at the >300 seat category for the winter season if they move DXB from a 3x weekly 77W to a 5x weekly 789, that would allow them to move YYZ-PVG to a 77W year round rather than a 77L during the winter. During the summer, AMS could really use a 77W, but ZRH needs the premium seats of the 777, theoretically could go 77L but that would be a pretty significant capacity drop, and that would mean BOM is stuck at 5x weekly. FRA could also use an upguage, so realistically, one additional 400 seat 77W would be a pretty effective addition. Beyond that, a few more 300 seaters, be it airbus or Boeing would probably be more flexible for them and allow them to increase frequency. The 787-10, while very efficient, is limited realistically to Europe. While Europe is huge for them, adding more of what they already have seems like a more logical and more affordable option given the wide variety of used widebodies entering the market.
 
EChid
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 am

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:21 am

The A330s are a perfectly good tool for AC's European and transcon operations. They're cheap to buy/lease, and widely available used. They're also all getting refurbished with AC's current reverse herringbone flagship J product (and, presumably, they're new economy and PE product) to be more consistent with the new deliveries. To customers they'll soon feel just as new as the Dreamliners.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:32 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Which is depressing news for window seat fiends like yours truly! Imagine flying over Greenland with the stupid dimming windows forced shut by the crew. :mad:

Have you even flown in a 787 yet? Doesn't seem like it, since you'd realize that you can still see perfectly well and in full detail, out of a fully-dimmed window during daylight opps.


chonetsao wrote:
And that is the greatest news for us who dislike selfish people kept the window open when we wanted to rest or watch a film without reflections on the screen.

...who of course are lacking in sufficient introspection to realize that THEY are actually the selfish ones-- for being too stupid to simply pack a pair of eyeshades, and thus not try to turn their personal issue into an problem for any/everyone else. :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kimimm19
Topic Author
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Air Canada and the 787-10?

Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:04 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Michael Rousseau said that no options were going to be exercised now, but he noted that this was only in the short term future. While most 789 routes could easily fill a 787-10 in the summer, year round there aren't as many, making it a less flexible platform. By my analysis, they should be pretty good at the >300 seat category for the winter season if they move DXB from a 3x weekly 77W to a 5x weekly 789, that would allow them to move YYZ-PVG to a 77W year round rather than a 77L during the winter. During the summer, AMS could really use a 77W, but ZRH needs the premium seats of the 777, theoretically could go 77L but that would be a pretty significant capacity drop, and that would mean BOM is stuck at 5x weekly. FRA could also use an upguage, so realistically, one additional 400 seat 77W would be a pretty effective addition. Beyond that, a few more 300 seaters, be it airbus or Boeing would probably be more flexible for them and allow them to increase frequency. The 787-10, while very efficient, is limited realistically to Europe. While Europe is huge for them, adding more of what they already have seems like a more logical and more affordable option given the wide variety of used widebodies entering the market.


Thank you for this analysis!!

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