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Revelation
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Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:05 pm

Some pretty blunt comments from CEO Spohr:

“Our dialog with the manufacturers, especially Pratt & Whitney, on the big issues surrounding the A320neo engine suggests there’ll be no relief soon,” Spohr told staff in comments confirmed by Lufthansa. “For another few months we’ll be on our own. At the earliest, the fixes will come in November.”

The article suggests that parts for repairing the in-service fleet are not being given priority over parts for new builds.

While the reduced complement of jets is operational right now, the CEO told staff that its engineers have scoured the globe for reserve engines to keep operations running, but that there are none available. “We just used our last spare engine this morning,” he said on Aug. 14. “That’s the first time I can remember that we operate without a single engine in reserve.”

That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.


That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.

I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100, they moved EIS back and kept the fleet on the ground. Everett looked like a huge 747 parking lot in the beginning of 1970 until the problems could finally be solved (partly as was later discovered). So I don't know why Airbus and/or P&W insist on shelling out more new jets with problematic engines, instead of telling their customers that their new jets will be coming later. Most are for replacement anyway and I'm sure that most older jets could be flown for a bit longer. Where this is not possible they could make case by case decisions after talks with each airline. Should not be that difficult.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
Some pretty blunt comments from CEO Spohr:

“Our dialog with the manufacturers, especially Pratt & Whitney, on the big issues surrounding the A320neo engine suggests there’ll be no relief soon,” Spohr told staff in comments confirmed by Lufthansa. “For another few months we’ll be on our own. At the earliest, the fixes will come in November.”

The article suggests that parts for repairing the in-service fleet are not being given priority over parts for new builds.

While the reduced complement of jets is operational right now, the CEO told staff that its engineers have scoured the globe for reserve engines to keep operations running, but that there are none available. “We just used our last spare engine this morning,” he said on Aug. 14. “That’s the first time I can remember that we operate without a single engine in reserve.”

That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.


Do you also have the source where I can find these statements?
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:03 pm

CARST wrote:
That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.

I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100, they moved EIS back and kept the fleet on the ground. Everett looked like a huge 747 parking lot in the beginning of 1970 until the problems could finally be solved (partly as was later discovered). So I don't know why Airbus and/or P&W insist on shelling out more new jets with problematic engines, instead of telling their customers that their new jets will be coming later. Most are for replacement anyway and I'm sure that most older jets could be flown for a bit longer. Where this is not possible they could make case by case decisions after talks with each airline. Should not be that difficult.

Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.

I also agree that PW should favor the in-service fleet over new deliveries. It suggests to me that the cost of delaying the shipments is higher than the cost of dealing with any penalties paid to the launch customers, if in fact there are any. It's probably a simple business decision but one with very bad optics.

I agree the very bad optics of this situation will likely end up costing PW a lot of business.

LewisNEO wrote:
Do you also have the source where I can find these statements?

Sorry, I should have included the link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... hansa-says
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:07 pm

Pratt, listen to LH.

Sigh... Great concept, but under tested. Sigh...

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
CARST wrote:
That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.

I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100, they moved EIS back and kept the fleet on the ground. Everett looked like a huge 747 parking lot in the beginning of 1970 until the problems could finally be solved (partly as was later discovered). So I don't know why Airbus and/or P&W insist on shelling out more new jets with problematic engines, instead of telling their customers that their new jets will be coming later. Most are for replacement anyway and I'm sure that most older jets could be flown for a bit longer. Where this is not possible they could make case by case decisions after talks with each airline. Should not be that difficult.

Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.

I also agree that PW should favor the in-service fleet over new deliveries. It suggests to me that the cost of delaying the shipments is higher than the cost of dealing with any penalties paid to the launch customers, if in fact there are any. It's probably a simple business decision but one with very bad optics.

I agree the very bad optics of this situation will likely end up costing PW a lot of business.

LewisNEO wrote:
Do you also have the source where I can find these statements?

Sorry, I should have included the link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... hansa-says



Thnx
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.


Or they just wait and sue after adding up the sums when the problem is fixed.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:39 pm

I assume this is the reason why they brought the elderly D-AIQS back to revenue flights from its flight training duties?
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:41 pm

It's taking pretty long to fix all those engine troubles these days. The race for high efficiency might have been too much rushed. I hope now they will be reliable as planned. The A220 seems to have less troubles.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.

Or they just wait and sue after adding up the sums when the problem is fixed.

My thought is they'd want to use a lawsuit (or the threat of one) to get Airbus + PW to prioritize supplying the in-service fleet over the new deliveries.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:57 pm

CARST wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.


That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.


If I were an airline CEO, I'd be suing PW for the cost of leasing an A320-CEO and the incremental operating costs of operating the older, less-efficient model. If enough airlines went this route, I wonder if this wouldn't be bad enough to put PW out of business or at least to get UTC to dump the PW subsidiary. Maybe that's not a bad thing. If PW has forgotten how to build airplane engines, then they probably shouldn't be in that business.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:00 pm

DocLightning wrote:
If enough airlines went this route, I wonder if this wouldn't be bad enough to put PW out of business or at least to get UTC to dump the PW subsidiary. Maybe that's not a bad thing. If PW has forgotten how to build airplane engines, then they probably shouldn't be in that business.


That is kind of harsh, don't you think. They probably rushed it into service to soon, but these things happen, Compensation will probably be granted, one way or another. Just like with the RR engines right now.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:04 pm

CARST wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.


That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.

I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100, they moved EIS back and kept the fleet on the ground. Everett looked like a huge 747 parking lot in the beginning of 1970 until the problems could finally be solved (partly as was later discovered). So I don't know why Airbus and/or P&W insist on shelling out more new jets with problematic engines, instead of telling their customers that their new jets will be coming later. Most are for replacement anyway and I'm sure that most older jets could be flown for a bit longer. Where this is not possible they could make case by case decisions after talks with each airline. Should not be that difficult.

Lufthans in the early 1970s traded in all their P & W powered 747-130s to Boeing and bought GE powered 747-230s. LH never bought a another Pratt powered 747 after that. Pratt was not very reliable with the early JT9D power plant. Northwest Airlines had Pratt powered 747s and DC-10s. Northwest was continuously parking DC-10s so they could rob engines from them and change them over to use on their 747s. :old:
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.

Or they just wait and sue after adding up the sums when the problem is fixed.

My thought is they'd want to use a lawsuit (or the threat of one) to get Airbus + PW to prioritize supplying the in-service fleet over the new deliveries.


Yes, I don't see any point in waiting to file a suit. They have mechanisms to delay progress of the suit (or to drop the suit) if suitable progress is being made. Filing a suit in U.S. courts would give them discovery rights, to see what P&W knew and when.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That is kind of harsh, don't you think. They probably rushed it into service to soon, but these things happen, Compensation will probably be granted, one way or another. Just like with the RR engines right now.


You know, if the problem were with the gearbox, I'd say it was kind of harsh.

But humans have been building turbines since Turbinia. Casing thermal issues, rotor bow, and seals are well-known challenges in dealing with gas turbines and steam turbines. If PW can't design a reliable turbine, then they shouldn't be selling them. Perhaps they'd do better selling gearboxes to RR and GE.

It seems to me that the idea of multi-year delays on aviation products has become a new normal for the industry, with the A350 being the one major exception. At least with the 787, for which I was harshly critical of Boeing, the issues that arose were mostly with new technologies and/or the new corporate structure for design and assembly.

But for PW it seems like they have forgotten how to build turbines and that's a horrible reason to be grounding fleets and having Airbus reject deliveries over two years after EIS.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:48 pm

At least with the 787, for which I was harshly critical of Boeing, the issues that arose were mostly with new technologies and/or the new corporate structure for design and assembly.


Err... RR Trent issues are haunting the B787-operators.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
If enough airlines went this route, I wonder if this wouldn't be bad enough to put PW out of business or at least to get UTC to dump the PW subsidiary. Maybe that's not a bad thing. If PW has forgotten how to build airplane engines, then they probably shouldn't be in that business.


That is kind of harsh, don't you think. They probably rushed it into service to soon, but these things happen, Compensation will probably be granted, one way or another. Just like with the RR engines right now.

Pratt needs more technically astute management.

They have great engineers, but they just are not given the proper test budget early when you can redesign.

This is bad. Nut the GE90 was worse (fuel in cabin).

This will require payments. Hopefully Pratt reforms.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:26 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
At least with the 787, for which I was harshly critical of Boeing, the issues that arose were mostly with new technologies and/or the new corporate structure for design and assembly.


Err... RR Trent issues are haunting the B787-operators.

Cheers! :wave:


Yeah, that's actually an unprecedented situation. But at least it's *one* manufacturing issue and not "we don't know how to design turbines anymore."
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:01 pm

DocLightning wrote:
It seems to me that the idea of multi-year delays on aviation products has become a new normal for the industry, with the A350 being the one major exception.


The A350 is not an exception to delays... Chart out the full development cycle and promises.... I clearly remember a statement about "if we cannot meet our planned schedule for th A350 that someone should be shot"... This was after the multi-year debacle of the original A350 design and redesign. The missed the schedule by at least a year... and no one at Airbus was shot or even held accountable as far as I can tell.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:32 pm

2175301 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
It seems to me that the idea of multi-year delays on aviation products has become a new normal for the industry, with the A350 being the one major exception.


The A350 is not an exception to delays... Chart out the full development cycle and promises.... I clearly remember a statement about "if we cannot meet our planned schedule for th A350 that someone should be shot"... This was after the multi-year debacle of the original A350 design and redesign. The missed the schedule by at least a year... and no one at Airbus was shot or even held accountable as far as I can tell.

Have a great day,


As compared to the three year delays for the A380 and 787 program and the...what...eight year delay for the MRJ the A350 was pretty on time.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:49 pm

Lots of pretty harsh comments on this thread.

The engine manufacturers are really pushing technological limits at this point. All 3 are having problems of one sort or another. The GTF is delivering unprecedented fuel efficiency. The production line is still spooling up, and they did have a few problems crop up that are now fixed.

It is not uncommon for a large airline to have no spare engines for a small subfleet occaisionally (for a few days), even on airplanes that have been in service a long time. Its a constant balancing act. No one here knows what the contract says, no one know how much time PW has to produce an engine if one is desperately needed. No one knows if LH has legal recourse.

I will say thay LH must be highly irritated if they are going public.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:42 pm

Again, the PW1100 on the A320neo should never have never entered service. Certification requires functionality-and-reliability (F&R) testing which the aircraft/engine combo should never have passed. Airbus has a lot to answer for too -- not just PW. They pushed aircraft into service that should never have been delivered. No airline should be flying a frame with no spare engines. PW has been issuing PR statements saying the technical issues are behind it...but that cannot be determined until after a few more years of service. Yes, to be fair, LEAP has issues too...but less question marks than the PW1000 series.

People say the GTF gearbox is reliable and was never the problem....but that is likely not true. Although gearbox itself may not be having problems...the core that drives it was designed for a gearbox (higher RPM, turbine sizing, etc.)...which may explain the rotor, bearing and oil seal issues. So indirectly, the "Gears" in GTF may be problematic.

Also both A and B need to cut production...or at least stop increasing it until engine and supply chain issues are under control. Poor showing by everybody all around. I am assuming these aircraft are safe...for now.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Your comments made me wonder if LH has legal recourse or not. I can imagine it does not, or it probably would have used it. Or perhaps they've used a threat of filing a lawsuit? I know the early customers probably have to give up some legal rights as a part of being launch customers.


Or they just wait and sue after adding up the sums when the problem is fixed.

Legal action now becomes a distraction. And favours / co-operation ceases.

At the end of the day, customers like the engine's performance, but not the reliability of some components, and PW's ability to solve and scale replacement part production.

A big wake up call for customers that negotiate engines direct with the OEM, rather than purchase turnkey from A or B. And great news for legals, as contract templates have been / are being updated.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:00 pm

CARST wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That's a pretty unfortunate situation to be in.


That's said very nicely and professional. I would say that's a catastrophic situation to be in for all affected airlines and the manufacturer of the airplane and/or the engines (depending on the contracts). For P&W the shit has hit the fan and I'm sure it will cost them fortunes. I could even see airlines like LH sueing them if the operational fleet should go out of service and should flights have to be cancelled for a longer time because no new engines are available. It seems strange to prefer delivering new planes over keeping the ones already delivered in the air.

I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100, they moved EIS back and kept the fleet on the ground. Everett looked like a huge 747 parking lot in the beginning of 1970 until the problems could finally be solved (partly as was later discovered). So I don't know why Airbus and/or P&W insist on shelling out more new jets with problematic engines, instead of telling their customers that their new jets will be coming later. Most are for replacement anyway and I'm sure that most older jets could be flown for a bit longer. Where this is not possible they could make case by case decisions after talks with each airline. Should not be that difficult.


Considering P&W has been working on geared turbofan technology for over 30 years, it looks pretty bad. Remember the original engines that were specified for the A340-300 were P&W GTF.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Pratt, listen to LH.

Sigh... Great concept, but under tested. Sigh...

Lightsaber


But hasn't the gearbox proven itself to be pretty bulletproof? It seems like it's the "old" area of the design that is problematic, not the the revolutionary one.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:30 pm

Astronage wrote:
But hasn't the gearbox proven itself to be pretty bulletproof? It seems like it's the "old" area of the design that is problematic, not the the revolutionary one.


Not exactly true...the "older" sections were designed for a gearbox -- not just a an upgrade from an older core engine like the V2500 or PW6000. The GTF core section is new and has higher RPM and a different turbine on the outer compressor-turbine than it would have had with no gearbox. So the gearbox may not necessarily be left out of any blame...it is part of a whole system.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:35 pm

Are these P&W shortcomings a worldwide issue or just related to Lufthansa's fleet? I've seen some P&W NEOs going back to the skies over the last months, so that got me wondering.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:37 pm

Man P&W really shot themselves on the foot.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:38 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Pratt, listen to LH.

Sigh... Great concept, but under tested. Sigh...

Lightsaber

What is the absolute cruncher in this debacle is that the "great concept" actually works!

Their fan gearbox mechanism doesn't appear to be the problem here. It's all back in the core, where PW should have had practically zero issues.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:06 pm

Channex757 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Pratt, listen to LH.

Sigh... Great concept, but under tested. Sigh...

Lightsaber

What is the absolute cruncher in this debacle is that the "great concept" actually works!

Their fan gearbox mechanism doesn't appear to be the problem here. It's all back in the core, where PW should have had practically zero issues.

The issue is new differential speed between the shafts went beyond the design.

Many good components, but it only takes one mistake to ruin an engine. Honestly, when I saw PW1100G, PW1500G and LEAP components going through the lab, CFM (GE) had a better test program.

Pratt nailed the big stuff. They will get past this, but with a reminder of the PW4098, PW4172, PW6000 and the long times to improve durability on the PW2000, PW4062 surge (obviously better now, see 767 engine sales) and infighting between RR and Pratt that delayed the first major fuel burn reduction V2500 PIP.

This is going to kill their 797 chances...

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:11 pm

NearMiss wrote:
Are these P&W shortcomings a worldwide issue or just related to Lufthansa's fleet? I've seen some P&W NEOs going back to the skies over the last months, so that got me wondering.

There is a global shortage of spare eSee Indigo and GoAir groundngines. So...see Indigo and GoAir grounding for lack of spare.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:29 pm

How is CFM doing with their delivery schedule? Will they be able to cope if IndiGo decides to switch to CFM for the remainder of their order?
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:38 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
I assume this is the reason why they brought the elderly D-AIQS back to revenue flights from its flight training duties?


Still newer than AA's last 763 (1988 EIS factor).
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:41 am

lightsaber wrote:
This is going to kill their 797 chances...

Lightsaber


I'd say this is the last straw, but with the way Pratt has handled the GTF issues, there may still be more last straws to come. To call their handling of the GTF issues a debacle would be to understate Pratt's performance.

I think they are out of every larger than bizjet aircraft project...possibly for good. GE are even giving them a run for their money in the turboprop market. Their last best chance of getting involved with the big boys may be to license the GTF gearbox to GE...and hope they still get to manufacture it.

I doubt that any aircraft maker is going to chance their new designs to a solo Pratt project for years, if not decades to come.

Not only have they had problems with things they should have pretty much perfected decades ago, (fan blades, shaft bow, unreliable seals, hot section fatigue), their reaction to their own problems have been slow and ineffective. Every deadline they announce should be taken as a wild guess, since they seem incapable of an honest time estimate for anything.

I remain a huge fan of the GTF concept, but have lost complete faith in Pratt's ability to make a reliable jet engine that performs to spec.

LH doesn't have to sue Pratt...not that it matters anyway, since Pratt may not be around as a solo act long enough for LH to collect. Regardless, I would bet that they never buy another Pratt engine.
What the...?
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:09 pm

smartplane wrote:
Legal action now becomes a distraction. And favours / co-operation ceases.

Aren't we past that point anyway when the CEO says we're on our own now till November and his PR department confirms that statement?

JoeCanuck wrote:
Their last best chance of getting involved with the big boys may be to license the GTF gearbox to GE...and hope they still get to manufacture it.

Uhmm, Pratt doesn't manufacture Pratt's gearbox, Avio does, and Avio is owned by.... GE!

Ref: viewtopic.php?t=549749
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:37 pm

Uhmm, Pratt doesn't manufacture Pratt's gearbox, Avio does, and Avio is owned by.... GE!


Seriously? I had no idea, for myself. It is odd how entangled many of these large companies are.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:15 pm

CARST wrote:
I remember when Boeing had problems with the engines for the 747-100


Really? You must be very young looking for your age.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:40 pm

unrave wrote:
How is CFM doing with their delivery schedule? Will they be able to cope if IndiGo decides to switch to CFM for the remainder of their order?

No. CFM us in a worse spot at this time.

However, they prioritized spares. Pratt thought they had solved the issue and prioritized new builds as per OP's quote of LH.

Rumors are Boeing must stop MAX production for a month due to the shortfall. This is a major issue as NG demand is only for heavily discounted frames (hello Allegiant) and vendors have a contractural ramp down rates. With long lead parts too... Boeing must convert in October an NG line to MAX and CFM just cannot meet current one line demand + LEAP CEO as is. Two MAX lines and Airbus contracted ramp increase... Nope. Not a hope.

CFM has a combustor durability issue. It isn't effecting dispatch reliability, but oh are they getting good at efficient combustor replacement and that requires a large quantity of spare engines.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:50 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Uhmm, Pratt doesn't manufacture Pratt's gearbox, Avio does, and Avio is owned by.... GE!


Seriously? I had no idea, for myself. It is odd how entangled many of these large companies are.

There is much Pratt IP in the design. I'm not going to violate my NDA, but there are many design details GE doesn't know why the gearbox is designed as it is, but Pratt does. But yes, it is ironic the manufacturing of the gear box was outsourced to GE. On the other hand, UTC does a huge amount of business doing outsourced work from RR and GE on their engines. It is why other divisions of United technologies are firewalled from Pratt. I'm sure GE must do the same. The most insane vendor is Hitchner. If they could share turbine technology between RR, GE, and Pratt, all three would improve their turbine technology tomorrow. But Hitchner likes making turbine blades, combustor panels, and guide swirlers for all three engine companies (I think Honeywell too,but I don't know). So they firewall their own staff .

Could Hitchner design a turbine blades? No. They do not know the aerodynamics, but they know how to build to print. Avio knows gears and are excellent at it. But there are features unique to only GTF gearboxes they might not know why they are there.

They certainly don't have Pratt's maintenance prediction software. A key part of the GTF concept.

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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Uhmm, Pratt doesn't manufacture Pratt's gearbox, Avio does, and Avio is owned by.... GE!

Seriously? I had no idea, for myself. It is odd how entangled many of these large companies are.

GE bought Avio in 2012, and in that time frame GTF was no secret, it has been in flight test since 2008 ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G ).

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... pply-chain says:

Avio gets more than 50 percent of sales from GE and GE joint-venture engines. It makes parts for the U.S. company’s newest model, the GEnx, which powers Boeing Co.’s 787 Dreamliner and 747-8 jumbo jet, and is a supplier to CFM International SA, a venture of GE and Safran that’s the exclusive source of engines for the Boeing 737, the world’s most widely flown passenger jet.

So it seems GE was just buying out a big supplier to GEnx and CFM56/LEAP, and as a nice side benefit, it got the GTF gear making contract too.

lightsaber wrote:
There is much Pratt IP in the design. I'm not going to violate my NDA, but there are many design details GE doesn't know why the gearbox is designed as it is, but Pratt does.

I agree. The only way GE could use that gear tech on its products would be to get a license from PW, and that's not going to happen.

lightsaber wrote:
The most insane vendor is Hitchner. If they could share turbine technology between RR, GE, and Pratt, all three would improve their turbine technology tomorrow. But Hitchner likes making turbine blades, combustor panels, and guide swirlers for all three engine companies (I think Honeywell too,but I don't know). So they firewall their own staff .

Could Hitchner design a turbine blades? No. They do not know the aerodynamics, but they know how to build to print. Avio knows gears and are excellent at it. But there are features unique to only GTF gearboxes they might not know why they are there.

Interesting. I didn't know anything about Hitchiner, but after a bit of googling it turns out their HQ is about fifteen miles away from me. You'd never know driving by it (which I've done many times) that it is involved in such interesting technology.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:53 pm

If it wasn't for military contracts, I suspect Pratt would have been out of the jet engine business many years ago.

I wonder how much of their culture and infrastructure is more attuned to military business than to competitive commercial business.

Another factor is that Pratt is part of UTC. A very long time ago I was told that UTC had a choice for capital investment. Either a new engine with Pratt, or buying Otis Elevator. They chose to buy Otis (1976). (Sorry, so long ago I can't remember the source) I don't know what size engine they were hoping to build.

Interesting that Pratt's gearbox is made by a GE company. Is there any similar conflict with Rolls-Royce and Liebherr-Aerospace joint venture on their gearbox ?
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
If enough airlines went this route, I wonder if this wouldn't be bad enough to put PW out of business or at least to get UTC to dump the PW subsidiary. Maybe that's not a bad thing. If PW has forgotten how to build airplane engines, then they probably shouldn't be in that business.


That is kind of harsh, don't you think. They probably rushed it into service to soon, but these things happen, Compensation will probably be granted, one way or another. Just like with the RR engines right now.

These things shouldn't happen. If an engine manufacturer is going to put a new engine on the market, they should confidently feel that the product being sold will do exactly what the customers want it to do. If it does not, they should have a fundamental plan in place to accommodate whatever such faults pertain. Unlike the 737 MAX, A350, 777X etc... The record selling A320 NEO has two engine manufacturers. My point Is that when you have competition in an extremely competitive market, the last thing you should be doing is selling a product that has faults so poorly that the CEO of LH is publicly speaking on your faulty product. If I was a CEO and planning on placing an order for the A320NEO, I would take extreme caution when ordering from PW.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:27 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is kind of harsh, don't you think. They probably rushed it into service to soon, but these things happen, Compensation will probably be granted, one way or another. Just like with the RR engines right now.


You know, if the problem were with the gearbox, I'd say it was kind of harsh.

But humans have been building turbines since Turbinia. Casing thermal issues, rotor bow, and seals are well-known challenges in dealing with gas turbines and steam turbines. If PW can't design a reliable turbine, then they shouldn't be selling them. Perhaps they'd do better selling gearboxes to RR and GE.

It seems to me that the idea of multi-year delays on aviation products has become a new normal for the industry, with the A350 being the one major exception. At least with the 787, for which I was harshly critical of Boeing, the issues that arose were mostly with new technologies and/or the new corporate structure for design and assembly.

But for PW it seems like they have forgotten how to build turbines and that's a horrible reason to be grounding fleets and having Airbus reject deliveries over two years after EIS.

Perfectly said.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:58 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This is going to kill their 797 chances...

Lightsaber


I'd say this is the last straw, but with the way Pratt has handled the GTF issues, there may still be more last straws to come. To call their handling of the GTF issues a debacle would be to understate Pratt's performance.

I think they are out of every larger than bizjet aircraft project...possibly for good. GE are even giving them a run for their money in the turboprop market. Their last best chance of getting involved with the big boys may be to license the GTF gearbox to GE...and hope they still get to manufacture it.

I doubt that any aircraft maker is going to chance their new designs to a solo Pratt project for years, if not decades to come.

Not only have they had problems with things they should have pretty much perfected decades ago, (fan blades, shaft bow, unreliable seals, hot section fatigue), their reaction to their own problems have been slow and ineffective. Every deadline they announce should be taken as a wild guess, since they seem incapable of an honest time estimate for anything.

I remain a huge fan of the GTF concept, but have lost complete faith in Pratt's ability to make a reliable jet engine that performs to spec.

LH doesn't have to sue Pratt...not that it matters anyway, since Pratt may not be around as a solo act long enough for LH to collect. Regardless, I would bet that they never buy another Pratt engine.


How much did LH get to buy a P&W engine, when they had not acquired a P&W-powered frame in 45 years or so under their own brand - not even with P&W in a JV (such as IAE or Engine Alliance)? (The 757s and 767s were acquired for Condor operations.) Is it too late to switch remaining orders to the CFM LEAP?

LH also has some A320s nearing 30 years old---how much longer can they go?

Also of note...the Airbus A320ceo/neo family, A380 and Boeing 787 are anomalies in that they're offering more than one engine choice. Typically, an engine and plane are harmonized together for new aircraft. I have to wonder why Rolls Royce has never designed an engine for a narrow body mainline-sized plane since the RB211-535 series was designed for the 757, other than the BR700 series designed with BMW...too much R&D with the B787, A330neo and A350XWB?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 am

And yet, still better than Rolls Royce where we have an engine blow up at least once a year, or have both engines roll back at critical phases of flight.
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:47 am

SteelChair wrote:
It is not uncommon for a large airline to have no spare engines for a small subfleet occaisionally (for a few days), even on airplanes that have been in service a long time. Its a constant balancing act. No one here knows what the contract says, no one know how much time PW has to produce an engine if one is desperately needed. No one knows if LH has legal recourse.


Temporarily not having spare engines and using a lease pool is not uncommon. However, not having access to a lease pool and not having spare engines for 3 months or more is very uncommon. That will most likely result in grounded airplanes.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:50 am

Just a little more information: 9 of 60 Pratt A320NEO in India are grounded (7 for Indigo, 2 for GoAir):
https://www.aviationindia.net/2018/08/n ... unded.html

The Minister ordered the review a day after IndiGo, the Delhi based low-cost airline, issued a statement confirming that a few of its Airbus A-320 NEO aircraft had been “grounded proactively” due to non-availability of spares engines from Pratt and Whitney (PW). The airline did not say how many aircraft had been grounded due to engine trouble.

Sigh... November huh? ;)
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7673mech
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:44 am

Edit . .... Much of what I wrote is already covered.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:00 am

Does anyone know if PW (or the other two engine manufacturers for that matter) publish monthly delivery numbers for their engines?
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Engine Fix Won't Come for Months, Lufthansa Says

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:11 am

Super80Fan wrote:
And yet, still better than Rolls Royce where we have an engine blow up at least once a year, or have both engines roll back at critical phases of flight.


This is not a competition, my friend.
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