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LAXintl
Posts: 24794
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:23 am

From what I gather the government and IGA seek to open the airport on Oct 29th (largely for legal and PR reasons), but operators like TK will seek to relocate at slightly later date which is what drove the December 31st date and is part of some letter of agreement that was struck last week.
Let's see if this sticks, or if pressure will cause further changes.

Obviously, time is tight, and moving airports is a huge logistical undertaking, not the least of which is making sure your customers know where to show up at!.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bmibaby737
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:42 am

stylo777 wrote:
I might have missed in previous threads, but why is TC-LCF delivered as 2nd 737 max8 for TK after TC-LCA instead of TC-LCB to -CE?


The aircraft have been allocated their registrations in order with their construction numbers, however aircraft are not rolled out in the same order... so TC-LCF has actually been built before the others...

Take a look at Turkish 737-8s - Planespotters.net to see what I mean.

Another example of an airline doing this is Qatar with their 787s: Qatar 787s - Planespotters.net you can change the order of the aircraft by MSN (construction number) / LN (line number) to see it better.
 
stylo777
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:28 pm

LAXintl wrote:
From what I gather the government and IGA seek to open the airport on Oct 29th (largely for legal and PR reasons), but operators like TK will seek to relocate at slightly later date which is what drove the December 31st date and is part of some letter of agreement that was struck last week.
Let's see if this sticks, or if pressure will cause further changes.

Obviously, time is tight, and moving airports is a huge logistical undertaking, not the least of which is making sure your customers know where to show up at!.

In this regards, government probably equals to Mr. Erdogan himself since DHMI would surely not be comfortable with a chaotic transfer, opening and running of operations. At the end of the day, they have a great stake in this topic, but Erdogan has an ego and loss of face if postponed at this point.

Also heard over the weekend that TK would probably stick to their idea of relocating 20-30 aircraft to the new airport on 31DEC and carry out domestic and international flights to places with high O&D demand. This seems to be a pretty similar ops like in SAW with high volume domestic (ESB, ADB, AYT, TZX, ADA, ASR) and some international ones (ECN, DXB, TLV, LON, PAR, FRA, VIE, etc.). This would certainly be a very wise scenario: transfer what is needed at the beginning, start less complex operations, get used to the new environment and complete the big-bang-move with Summerschedule 2019.

One obstacle still remains: what about dual-operations from New Istanbul and current Ataturk Airport. Is it even possible? Nowadays, almost everything from Ataturk departs to the North right above the new airport.
 
bgm
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:25 pm

If they have the 2 airports open, what would be the IATA codes for each? They're both supposed to be IST but obviously that isn't possible. Would one have a temporary IATA code?
 
leftyboarder
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:14 pm

bgm wrote:
If they have the 2 airports open, what would be the IATA codes for each? They're both supposed to be IST but obviously that isn't possible. Would one have a temporary IATA code?


Old airport to get the new code ISL, announced earlier. Still confusing for airlines.
 
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mafaky
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:02 pm

stylo777 wrote:
In this regards, government probably equals to Mr. Erdogan himself since DHMI would surely not be comfortable with a chaotic transfer, opening and running of operations. At the end of the day, they have a great stake in this topic, but Erdogan has an ego and loss of face if postponed at this point.

Also heard over the weekend that TK would probably stick to their idea of relocating 20-30 aircraft to the new airport on 31DEC and carry out domestic and international flights to places with high O&D demand. This seems to be a pretty similar ops like in SAW with high volume domestic (ESB, ADB, AYT, TZX, ADA, ASR) and some international ones (ECN, DXB, TLV, LON, PAR, FRA, VIE, etc.). This would certainly be a very wise scenario: transfer what is needed at the beginning, start less complex operations, get used to the new environment and complete the big-bang-move with Summerschedule 2019.

One obstacle still remains: what about dual-operations from New Istanbul and current Ataturk Airport. Is it even possible? Nowadays, almost everything from Ataturk departs to the North right above the new airport.


1) I agree with your first paragraph in full (in fact: 5000%!!!).
2) Now I have started believing to the following scenario:
a) On 29th October, there will be the usual ribbon cutting ceremony.
b) On Oct. 31st, TK will make three flights already publicized (one to ESB, others to ECN and to Bacu), with narrow bodies. These probably 100% full flights will carry mostly VIPs plus maybe 30-40% ticketed pax. Therefore, from IGA's point they will deliver an operational airport (Phase 1A: IST/LTFM) and also the pax guarantee taximeter on IGA's behalf will also start tickling. It's highly probable that the return flights will be arriving to Ataturk Airport (ISL/LTBA).
c) Starting from Nov. 1st, there will be no more TK flights from the new IST/LTFM. It will be "business as usual" at Istanbul Ataturk, until Dec 31st. Your guess is that TK will start basing 20-30 planes at the new IST/LTFM by this date (and will consequently start limited flights to Europe, Mİddle east and to several domestic destinations where they will have reasonable O & D traffic to achieve loads like 60-70%, if not higher), not starting from Nov. 1st. have I read you correctly?
d) In such case, what will be the status of the other foreign carriers (I have to assume that the Star Alliance ones will follow TK as they share the CIP Lounges...) as well as the two other Ataturk based Turkish carriers? (namely AtlasGlobal & OnurAir. Also take note that OnurAr has a pretty active MRO facility at Ataturk...)
3) I think Ataturk & INA can tolerate/absorb/afford simultaneous operations, if strictly controlled by the ATC especially if there will only limited TK flights from INA starting from Dec 31st, to whatever the date for the full fledge operations will be shifted to INA. But, here the status of the other foreign carriers and tow minor Turkish carriers is the question mark. If their operations will be shifted to INA right away (starting Nov. 1st, or even Dec. 31st) that will increase the activity at INA making this controlled simultaneous operations at both airports more difficult or maybe even potentially risky. Plus these other carriers will start crying out that there's unfair competition created against them, as long as TK continues 85-90% of its operations from Ataturk while they will be somehow exiled to INA...

Many questions, as you can see???
A veteran Electronics & Communications Engineer from Istanbul-Turkey, highly interested in civil and military aviation.
 
MeCe
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:46 pm

I guess TK will relocate couple of narrow body planes and execute mostly domestic flights with no connection desire. Even they can send additional wide body plane for seasonal parking. Than foreign airlines which have only one flights, than TK will go. Actually Ayci's first request for staged moving quite was quite reasonable but ego of Mr President did not allow it. Now, "takke dustu kel gorundu" everbody must accept it. My only fear is migrating birds, other things can be solved but I dont know how they deal one of worlds busiest bird migrating path.
 
leftyboarder
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:16 am

MeCe wrote:
I guess TK will relocate couple of narrow body planes and execute mostly domestic flights with no connection desire. Even they can send additional wide body plane for seasonal parking. Than foreign airlines which have only one flights, than TK will go. Actually Ayci's first request for staged moving quite was quite reasonable but ego of Mr President did not allow it. Now, "takke dustu kel gorundu" everbody must accept it. My only fear is migrating birds, other things can be solved but I dont know how they deal one of worlds busiest bird migrating path.


But then it makes little sense for domestic passengers to use this airport, given that it's a hassle to get to. It makes more sense for connections to be there if anything. O&D prefers closer airports with better connections.
 
MeCe
Posts: 286
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:49 pm

leftyboarder wrote:
MeCe wrote:
I guess TK will relocate couple of narrow body planes and execute mostly domestic flights with no connection desire. Even they can send additional wide body plane for seasonal parking. Than foreign airlines which have only one flights, than TK will go. Actually Ayci's first request for staged moving quite was quite reasonable but ego of Mr President did not allow it. Now, "takke dustu kel gorundu" everbody must accept it. My only fear is migrating birds, other things can be solved but I dont know how they deal one of worlds busiest bird migrating path.


But then it makes little sense for domestic passengers to use this airport, given that it's a hassle to get to. It makes more sense for connections to be there if anything. O&D prefers closer airports with better connections.


This relocation of aircraft will be just for show, to prove given promises opening date. As far as can see photos from inside terminal there are huge amount of work going on more important ,detail work not finished yet most terminal. Photos/videos showing finished areas comes from always same area. My rough estimate is at least 6 months of work required for proper operation may be more.
 
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TK105
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:22 am

It is a good news that TK decided to go into parcel service. This is a very difficult organization, but if it turns out to be successful, returns will be very good, create lots of jobs - complementary businesses and Turkey's connectivity to the world will improve.

http://investor.turkishairlines.com/en/ ... isclosures
The future is in the skies.
 
stylo777
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:11 pm

TK105 wrote:
It is a good news that TK decided to go into parcel service. This is a very difficult organization, but if it turns out to be successful, returns will be very good, create lots of jobs - complementary businesses and Turkey's connectivity to the world will improve.

http://investor.turkishairlines.com/en/ ... isclosures

what is the difference to regular cargo operations?
how diversified are TK Cargo product portfolio nowadays?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:49 pm

Yes interesting TK is looking at getting into the parcel business. Wonder if they will follow path of MNG and set up their own infrastructure (warehouses / vans / drivers etc) or if they will partner with existing parcel firms and simply provide the air logistic portion.


Regarding the 3d airport, from what I am hearing TK will operate 4 routes at the new airport starting Oct 29th as interim measure until full transfer in January.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aldrigsomandre
Posts: 346
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:12 pm

LAXintl wrote:

Regarding the 3d airport, from what I am hearing TK will operate 4 routes at the new airport starting Oct 29th as interim measure until full transfer in January.


Who would fly from the new airport when there are better options from 2 other airports?
 
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AirbusA343
Posts: 358
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:13 pm

Looks like TC-LCD is the next 737-8 MAX for TK.
 
stylo777
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Certainly some great and wise news!
Are those 4 routes going to be fully migrated to the new airport or "just" additions to Ataturk and/or Sabiha Gokcen operations? At this point I doubt that they would let's say move all ECN or GYD flights to the new airport.
On the other hand, BA and AF for instance both have such flights/destinations at LGW and ORY respectively. With transportation between both airports like "Les Cars Airfrance" this would even allow for connections. TK aready has a provider delivering the baggage from central parts of the city to the airport. Why not extend it with their partner Altur on passenger transfer level?
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 906
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:25 pm

stylo777 wrote:
Certainly some great and wise news!
Are those 4 routes going to be fully migrated to the new airport or "just" additions to Ataturk and/or Sabiha Gokcen operations? At this point I doubt that they would let's say move all ECN or GYD flights to the new airport.
On the other hand, BA and AF for instance both have such flights/destinations at LGW and ORY respectively. With transportation between both airports like "Les Cars Airfrance" this would even allow for connections. TK aready has a provider delivering the baggage from central parts of the city to the airport. Why not extend it with their partner Altur on passenger transfer level?


I’m assuming these are simply flights to save face for the government. Basically TK is forced to fly these impractical routes and incur a loss for these operations, knowing full well connections will not be possible and O&D pax will run away from them because it’s very difficult to get to the city, simply so somebody can claim “the airport is open”.
 
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TK105
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:31 am

I think it is more than that. As Turkish government garantees some minimum annual passanger, government will pay difference for the unused capacity x service charge per pax. So for the last 2 months of 2018, government will compansate the unused capacity of IGA. Probably it is around 1B€ for 2 months.
The future is in the skies.
 
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TK105
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:13 am

Sorry, the figure should be 100M€ based on 60M guaranteed pax capacity.
The future is in the skies.
 
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TK787
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:26 am

For Summer 2019 TK is planning scheduled 777 service to AMS 5 x weekly.
Out of the 4 daily non-stops, 2 are operated with 332s, 1 with 333, TK1953 gets 5 x 777, 2 x 333 weekly.
I did not realize that TK is going to all wide-bodies to AMS from IST.
 
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ugurberkin
Posts: 13
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:34 am

stylo777 wrote:
Certainly some great and wise news!
Are those 4 routes going to be fully migrated to the new airport or "just" additions to Ataturk and/or Sabiha Gokcen operations? At this point I doubt that they would let's say move all ECN or GYD flights to the new airport.
On the other hand, BA and AF for instance both have such flights/destinations at LGW and ORY respectively. With transportation between both airports like "Les Cars Airfrance" this would even allow for connections. TK aready has a provider delivering the baggage from central parts of the city to the airport. Why not extend it with their partner Altur on passenger transfer level?


Please don't move GYD to INA till we have connections.
GYD has lots of transit passengers and because of the codeshare flights with AZAL (J2), TK will loose all these transit passengers.
 
Blerg
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:33 pm

TK787 wrote:
For Summer 2019 TK is planning scheduled 777 service to AMS 5 x weekly.
Out of the 4 daily non-stops, 2 are operated with 332s, 1 with 333, TK1953 gets 5 x 777, 2 x 333 weekly.
I did not realize that TK is going to all wide-bodies to AMS from IST.


Maybe they could get additional slots to add more frequencies? I thought AMS was maxed out.
 
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AirbusA343
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:55 pm

TK1955/TK1956 is still A321 operated I think.
 
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mafaky
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:54 pm

@ TK105 :

Your estimations that the State will pay a certain pax guarantee to INA (for the unused capacity) is correct but your figures (the second one) may be a bit far-off. I am actually trying to work on this subject, though with some limited data. Unfortunately, I couldn't object the data I needed for precision calculations from DHMI/Turkey. TAV Istanbul is in possession of the same, but I doubt they will be willing to share that "company secret" info with me.

Whenever I come to a near conclusion, I will publish these in another (Turkish Forum) and I will gladly provide the link, here.

However, let me give a few small clues here:

1) The "pax service fees" (as they are called) are paid by only the "departing pax" in any airport. This is an international practice.
2) The statistical figures giving the annual pax usage of an airport is the sum of (as per ICAO descriptions):
a) Departing O & D pax (domestic), (fee: 3€/pax for INA departing pax)
b) Arriving O & D pax (domestic),
c) Departing O & D pax (international), (fee: 20€/pax for INA departing pax)
d) Arriving O & D pax (international),
e) Transfer departing pax (arriving from domestic and departing to international) -- counted as (2 pax), (fee: 5€/pax for INA departing pax)
f) Transfer arriving pax (arriving from international and departing to domestic) -- counted as (2 pax), (fee: 3€/pax for INA departing pax)
g) Transfer arriving pax (arriving from domestic and departing to domestic) -- counted as (2 pax), (fee: 3€/pax for INA departing pax)
h) Transfer arriving pax (arriving from international and departing to international) -- counted as (2 pax), (fee: 5€/pax for INA departing pax)
i) Any transit pax (not a big number in today's world: basically only valid in airports that allow 5th Freedom Rights). (fee: according to departure destination; domestic or international)
3) The fees that IGA will be able to collect are also indicated above, in (€), next to each category of pax.
4) The pax guarantee assigned/promised by the State, for the unused capacity, is valid only for the sum of the categories (c), (e) & (h) plus if and where applicable in (i). Naturally for all cases, each pax will be counted as one "1"!
5) The State has declared a table covering the first 12 years of operation. This is an escalating table starting from approx. 350 Million €'s. Supposedly at the end of every operational year, the calculations will be done.
6) If INA surpasses the guaranteed amount for a particular year of operation, the overpassed amount will be directly paid to the State.
7) For the fee category of 3€, there's no State provided guarantee but such collections are direct incomes for INA.
A veteran Electronics & Communications Engineer from Istanbul-Turkey, highly interested in civil and military aviation.
 
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HeyTK
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:00 pm

TK787 wrote:
For Summer 2019 TK is planning scheduled 777 service to AMS 5 x weekly.
Out of the 4 daily non-stops, 2 are operated with 332s, 1 with 333, TK1953 gets 5 x 777, 2 x 333 weekly.
I did not realize that TK is going to all wide-bodies to AMS from IST.


Yes thats great news! I fly from Ams to Ist and back 4/5 times a year and never had to chance to get on a 777 but next summer I will. :)
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24794
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:09 am

Good news for TK business class long haul passengers.

They can now pre-select their meals up to 48-hours prior to departure from Istanbul.
Valid routes are:
Turkish Airlines passengers who fly from Istanbul to Atlanta, Bangkok, Beijing, Bogotá, Boston, Cape Town, Chicago, Guangzhou, Hanoi, Havana, Ho Chi Minh City, Hong Kong, Houston, Jakarta, Johannesburg, Kuala Lumpur, Los Angeles, Manila, Miami, Montreal, New York, Phuket, Port Louis, San Francisco, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Shanghai, Singapore, Taipei, Tokyo, Toronto, Washington DC, Caracas, Panama City, Madagascar, Durban, Maputo, and Buenos Aires

Also a new dine on demand concept is being rolled out on intercontinental night flights to/from IST. This will allow customers to dine at any time and offers a more flexible flight by determining the time they want to rest and dine.
https://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/ ... on-demand/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mict
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:19 pm

Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:14 pm

Any updates on the new airport situation? Are there going to be airlines moving there at the end of October? Or is everything shifted to December 31st?
 
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TK787
Topic Author
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Re: Turkish Aviation September 2018

Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:50 pm

Please continue here: Turkish Aviation October 2018
*Moderators, if you could please archive this thread, since I've started a new one. Thank you.

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