BA777300er
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:58 am

Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:04 am

Seeing that Air Canada have the eze-yyz flight during the day got me wondering if we would ever see AA,UA or DL flying during the day to or from GIG,GRU or EZE
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:20 am

TAM is running a daytime flight MIA - GRU on a 763 and AA at certain times of the year AA has a daytime MIA-GRU on a 772.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14003
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:23 am

AA has had daylight GRU flights in the past. It’s easiest from MIA because of the higher frequency (LATAM has daylight flights both directions between MIA and GRU today).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12511
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:28 am

Daytime flights generally don't work anywhere except MIA.

Airlines have tried them out of NYC, Texas, Atlanta, etc, and they've all flopped.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:31 am

why don't they work?
 
Kaique
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:10 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:33 am

You mean from the US, right? Daytime flights aren't good for connections and we are only 1 hour ahead of you. If you take a flight on GRU to JFK, for example, at 10am, you'd probably arrive at 8pm and be free for your another flight at 9pm AT BEST (customs, baggage reclaim, lines). This mean that you would lost 7pm bank flights. On flights from North America to GRU, the same thing would happen, once when you arrive in Brazil, the majority of flights to North of BR, Southern, Northeast and even to the other countries in South America are already departed. Flights from Europe to South America on daytime are possible due to the different time zones.
 
Kaique
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:10 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:38 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
TAM is running a daytime flight MIA - GRU on a 763 and AA at certain times of the year AA has a daytime MIA-GRU on a 772.


This is only possible because of the high density of Brazilians living in Florida. The majority of people flying this route has MIA (or will complete the journey by car to a next city) as a destination. This is a high demanded route.
 
Kaique
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:10 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:40 am

CobaltScar wrote:
why don't they work?


Generally because you won't be available for connection flights when you arrive.
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Daytime flights generally don't work anywhere except MIA.

Airlines have tried them out of NYC, Texas, Atlanta, etc, and they've all flopped.


Why have they all flopped?
 
User avatar
CarlosSi
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:46 am

I presume you mean Deep South America like to Peru, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile.

I always thought it was for human reasons; so people could sleep through these 7-8 hour flights or longer (good luck).

That isn’t the case for return trips from europe though, when flights leave in the late morning/early afternoon and arrive in he late afternoon, though one’s clock is set to a later time.
 
User avatar
BWIAirport
Posts: 843
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:29 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:04 am

AR1304 departs Buenos Aires at 8:30am and arrives in Miami at 4:30pm. The inbound flight, AR1303, departs Miami at 9:30am and arrives in Buenos Aires at 7:10pm
Next flight: November 23 BA216 IAD-LHR A388
November 24 BA814 LHR-CPH A320

SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12511
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:05 am

questions wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Daytime flights generally don't work anywhere except MIA.
Airlines have tried them out of NYC, Texas, Atlanta, etc, and they've all flopped.

Why have they all flopped?

Because the lucrative end of the market prefers a dawn arrival on both ends, and will book as such.

Ergo, when airlines offered day-flights, they could only fill the loads with low fares, and thus ended up with trash yields; because the high-yield pax would overwhelmingly select the overnight offerings.

Miami appears to be the only US market somewhat immune to the concept, in terms of deep SouthAm.
Even the raw volume of NYC and the massive scale of the ATL connecting hub, couldn't overcome that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:12 am

Kaique wrote:
You mean from the US, right? Daytime flights aren't good for connections and we are only 1 hour ahead of you. If you take a flight on GRU to JFK, for example, at 10am, you'd probably arrive at 8pm and be free for your another flight at 9pm AT BEST (customs, baggage reclaim, lines). This mean that you would lost 7pm bank flights. On flights from North America to GRU, the same thing would happen, once when you arrive in Brazil, the majority of flights to North of BR, Southern, Northeast and even to the other countries in South America are already departed. Flights from Europe to South America on daytime are possible due to the different time zones.


Daytime flights to MIA from SA on AA and TAM also work for connections as those flights arrive between 5 and 6 PM which allows plenty of time for onward travelers to connect to flights going to DFW,ORD, SFO, LAX...etc.
 
PA12
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:19 am

AA also has a daytime flight from EZE to MIA on a seasonal schedule, I don't recall exactly when but I think it's during the S.American summer. And doesn't the MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA return to MÍA during the day?
And the same for the MIA-COR, which starts in April?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14003
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:43 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Kaique wrote:
You mean from the US, right? Daytime flights aren't good for connections and we are only 1 hour ahead of you. If you take a flight on GRU to JFK, for example, at 10am, you'd probably arrive at 8pm and be free for your another flight at 9pm AT BEST (customs, baggage reclaim, lines). This mean that you would lost 7pm bank flights. On flights from North America to GRU, the same thing would happen, once when you arrive in Brazil, the majority of flights to North of BR, Southern, Northeast and even to the other countries in South America are already departed. Flights from Europe to South America on daytime are possible due to the different time zones.


Daytime flights to MIA from SA on AA and TAM also work for connections as those flights arrive between 5 and 6 PM which allows plenty of time for onward travelers to connect to flights going to DFW,ORD, SFO, LAX...etc.


The shorter distance from MIA to South America helps this. The daytime flights actually have pretty good two-way connectivity to the west coast and offer a schedule that is likely attractive to some travelers They allow a full day of work on the west coast at the expense of losing a day in South America. Unlike from the east coast, that’s not clearly inferior to a night longhaul flight.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 6806
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:56 am

PA12 wrote:
AA also has a daytime flight from EZE to MIA on a seasonal schedule, I don't recall exactly when but I think it's during the S.American summer. And doesn't the MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA return to MÍA during the day?
And the same for the MIA-COR, which starts in April?



Yes, to all. The MIA EZE daytime flight operates during peak travel season to South America (southern summer). On AA at least, one of the LIM-MIA flights is a daytime flight and the departures out of MIA are both afternoon departures to LIM, arriving there in the evening.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
geoshina
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:55 am

Latam/JJ is currently flying both daily flights from GRU to MIA with a 77W. From GIG they use a 763 at night.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4123
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:53 pm

1) High yielding/premium passengers dislike the daytime flights: one loses a whole day, little chances of connecting flights upon arrival, etc.

2) GRU-MIA or EZE-MIA work well as daytime flights with leisure. P2P crowd

3) Back in the stone age (the 70s) both PA and BN used to fly from EZE to JFK nonstop with the 747SP the former and the DC-8-62 the latter.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
86hoya
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:08 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:29 pm

And doesn't the MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA return to MÍA during the day?

Yes, AA has flown a red-eye to Bolivia since the early 90s, the crew over-nighted in VVI and the plane continued back to MIA for an afternoon arrival. The difference between Bolivia and Brazil/Chile/Argentina etc, is the round-robin nature of the route which meant the plane had to continue back to MIA, so the LPB originating passengers had minimal ground time in VVI on their one-stop flight back to MIA.

Part two of the discussion is the cost/value of having a plane parked in deep-south America for 12 daylight hours waiting to return on a night flight northbound. Most US-Europe flights (eastbound) leave at dinner time, arrive in Europe in the morning, spend a few hours on the ground in Europe and return daytime back to the US for an afternoon arrival. Fairly efficient flying

On the other hand a red-eye south bound to GIG/GRU/SCL/EZE, then 12 hours on the ground before a night time return flight is relatively inefficient flying. There have been some efforts to use that ground time for cleaning, but the question is how do the airlines profitability models capture the "cost" or "lost revenue opportunity" or parking a plane?
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:39 pm

KLM is completely in daylight to UIO / GYE....probably not what you meant though.

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
druzb
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:44 pm

AD has daytime flights into MCO from VCP and CNF.

I flew the CNF-MCO in April. I think there were just two empty seats in all of economy. Seemed like mostly O&D traffic. Just two other people connected off the early morning from EZE with me.

I took AD specifically because I wanted a daytime flight, and self connected onward on a late evening flight Canada. Makes for a very long day but I still think it messes my sleep schedule up less than a red-eye.
 
druzb
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:58 pm

chepos wrote:
Yes, to all. The MIA EZE daytime flight operates during peak travel season to South America (southern summer). On AA at least, one of the LIM-MIA flights is a daytime flight and the departures out of MIA are both afternoon departures to LIM, arriving there in the evening.


Lima actually has pretty many daytimes to Florida:
AA1558 6:48a LIM-MIA
LA2474 8:28a LIM-MCO
AV962 10:00a LIM-MIA
AV976 10:05a LIM-MCO
LA2462 12:05p LIM-MIA
 
musman9853
Posts: 835
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:11 pm

druzb wrote:
AD has daytime flights into MCO from VCP and CNF.

I flew the CNF-MCO in April. I think there were just two empty seats in all of economy. Seemed like mostly O&D traffic. Just two other people connected off the early morning from EZE with me.

I took AD specifically because I wanted a daytime flight, and self connected onward on a late evening flight Canada. Makes for a very long day but I still think it messes my sleep schedule up less than a red-eye.



yeah, there's tons of Brazilians coming to orlando, you can basically go anywhere around here and you'll see herds of brazilian tourists
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:23 pm

There are routes which might demand some day-time between U.S and Brazil/Argentina (perhaps only seasonal December-January):
MIA-GIG
MIA-COR
ATL-GRU
ATL-EZE
IAH-GRU
EWR-GRU
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
B748eye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:03 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:24 pm

Recall US running daytime 762s on GIGCLT some time ago. That experiment went about as well as you would imagine
 
User avatar
delta747tlv
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:57 pm

On March 31, 2019 - Delta's GRU-MCO becomes a day flight departing 1000, arriving 1805. Not sure how long, but continues at least through the end of the current published schedule in July.
 
User avatar
BMWdrvr75
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:23 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Yea when Southwest starts flying to South America because we all know that Southwest can’t handle red-eyes...or handle any type of change for that matter.
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
dcajet
Posts: 4123
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:50 am

86hoya wrote:

On the other hand a red-eye south bound to GIG/GRU/SCL/EZE, then 12 hours on the ground before a night time return flight is relatively inefficient flying. There have been some efforts to use that ground time for cleaning, but the question is how do the airlines profitability models capture the "cost" or "lost revenue opportunity" or parking a plane?


Traditionally, MIA-EZE and MIA-GRU have been some of AA's highest yielding routes, especially upfront. So that mitigates the expense of having the aircraft on the ground most of the day. The demand for premium cabins to/fr deep South America is high and has always paid top dollar. Heck, even Pan Am had a special 747 subfleet to serve Brazil and Argentina with way more premium cabin space than those 747s serving Europe. The region is only now opening up to the levels of competition you see between Europe and North America, to name just one. Once the likes of Norwegian can fully take advantage of its traffic rights between EZE and the US I am certain the way business has been done up to now on the South America - US routes will be disrupted; same when the likes of JetBlue can get equipment than can fly to where the $ is: EZE, GRU & SCL.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
JayBCNLON
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:24 pm

Many flights from EU to South America are indeed daytime, f.e. LH FRA-BOG, IB MAD-CCS/GRU/GIG .... seems to be nothing out of the ordinary
 
dcajet
Posts: 4123
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:40 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Many flights from EU to South America are indeed daytime, f.e. LH FRA-BOG, IB MAD-CCS/GRU/GIG .... seems to be nothing out of the ordinary


FRA-BOG or MAD-CCS are east-west flights in nature, much as those over the North Atlantic, hence why they are daytime in most cases. Same as CDG-LIM, etc. GIG is not, for the most part, a destination that commands the premiums that GRU or EZE do. Most flights to these 2 cities from/to Europe, are night time flights; the daytime ones are, for the most part, second daily frequencies. So, while not uncommon, daytime flights from EU to South America play second fiddle to the night time ones in most cases.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
MSP744
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:55 pm

I dont mean to derail the conversation but I have always wondered why AA/DL/UA etc. sit for so long in GRU and GIG. But that was answered here, so thanks everyone for the great responses! Is this the same concept as Europe-CPT/JNB?
Flown on: PC12 CRJ9 E175 DC9 MD88 MD90 319 320 321 712 737 738 739 752 753 763 77E 77L 744
 
dcajet
Posts: 4123
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:13 am

MSP744 wrote:
I dont mean to derail the conversation but I have always wondered why AA/DL/UA etc. sit for so long in GRU and GIG. But that was answered here, so thanks everyone for the great responses! Is this the same concept as Europe-CPT/JNB?


Pretty much, yes. JNB as the more important destination tends to be served by night time flights from Europe, whereas the more leisure CPT is served by daytime flights more often .
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14003
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:30 am

dcajet wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Many flights from EU to South America are indeed daytime, f.e. LH FRA-BOG, IB MAD-CCS/GRU/GIG .... seems to be nothing out of the ordinary


FRA-BOG or MAD-CCS are east-west flights in nature, much as those over the North Atlantic, hence why they are daytime in most cases. Same as CDG-LIM, etc. GIG is not, for the most part, a destination that commands the premiums that GRU or EZE do. Most flights to these 2 cities from/to Europe, are night time flights; the daytime ones are, for the most part, second daily frequencies. So, while not uncommon, daytime flights from EU to South America play second fiddle to the night time ones in most cases.


GRU/GIG/EZE/SCL are also much longer flights than something like MIA-CCS. CDG-SCL-CDG takes about 31 hours of aircraft time, while MAD-CCS-MAD takes only 22. The night flight both ways on CDG-SCL-CDG maximizes connecting opportunities at CDG with a late night departure from CDG and a morning arrival with the TATL flights. Something like a Noon departure from CDG would have fewer connecting opportunities and a suboptimal arrival time at SCL. Thus, I'm not sure it's as much about the longer flights being higher yielding as it is about the optimal schedule being different for the longer flights.

dcajet wrote:
86hoya wrote:

On the other hand a red-eye south bound to GIG/GRU/SCL/EZE, then 12 hours on the ground before a night time return flight is relatively inefficient flying. There have been some efforts to use that ground time for cleaning, but the question is how do the airlines profitability models capture the "cost" or "lost revenue opportunity" or parking a plane?


Traditionally, MIA-EZE and MIA-GRU have been some of AA's highest yielding routes, especially upfront. So that mitigates the expense of having the aircraft on the ground most of the day. The demand for premium cabins to/fr deep South America is high and has always paid top dollar. Heck, even Pan Am had a special 747 subfleet to serve Brazil and Argentina with way more premium cabin space than those 747s serving Europe. The region is only now opening up to the levels of competition you see between Europe and North America, to name just one. Once the likes of Norwegian can fully take advantage of its traffic rights between EZE and the US I am certain the way business has been done up to now on the South America - US routes will be disrupted; same when the likes of JetBlue can get equipment than can fly to where the $ is: EZE, GRU & SCL.


It's not obvious to me what effect LFCs will have on markets like EZE-North America. I don't think the economics of 16 hour turns work for LFCs, so I presume that they will operate turns.

On one hand, the high-yielding business traffic will likely always prefer the overnight flights. But many of these flights - especially to and from South Florida - have a relatively high-yielding leisure component too. Some of those folks are loyal to AA and/or the South American carriers, but others might change their loyalty to a LFC operating a day flight for the right price.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
 
Jomar777
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Will there ever be any daytime flights to or from South America

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:27 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
Many flights from EU to South America are indeed daytime, f.e. LH FRA-BOG, IB MAD-CCS/GRU/GIG .... seems to be nothing out of the ordinary


You are right but I think the purpose of this thread is to discuss flights to/from North America... maybe the topic subject needs to be changed to reflect this.

Day Flights between Europe and South America are reasonably normal even more because it allows the airlines to rotate without the aircraft staying for long periods down south. AF and KL operate in GRU and GIG like this, for example.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos