FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1610
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:49 pm

4engines4lnghll wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:


True statement. PHX is only becoming larger and im shocked that there are still pesimists out there thinking PHX would be closed. I see LAX shrinking before PHX will (and thats not happening). Cut out some tourism and PHX is basically your LAX for connections inside the continental US & HI. AA is only getting stronger. They're adding a ton of TATL flights, domestic going from regional to mainline, and secondary markets getting service to other hubs. Love them or hate them, millions of people are still choosing to fly them and thats all that matters to the airline.


LAX has grown significantly since the merger and PHX has slightly shrunk. It’s not going anywhere, but it’s not getting larger.

There is also virtually no trans-Atlantic growth. All the additions are replacing something. AA cut a lot of trans-Atlantic routes at the same time of the announcements. I think the net gain was zero.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Berlin (TXL); Bologna, Italy (BLQ); and Dubrovnik, Croatia (DBV): Will be added summer seasonal service to these cities, operated on Boeing 767s between June and September 2019

​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Edinburgh, Scotland (EDI): This new service will operate daily on a Boeing 757 between April and October next year.

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍DFW to Dublin (DUB): seasonal service on a Boeing 787-9 from June through September.
CLT and DFW to MUC: In March, CLT’s first new international long-haul flight since 2014, with a daily year-round flight to MUC on an Airbus A330-200. In June, AA will add daily seasonal service from DFW to MUC on a 787-8.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍Daily seasonal ORD–ATH flight from May 3 to Sept. 28 on a 787-8, complementing the existing ATH service from PHL.

Doesn’t look like any TATL reduction to me.


Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:14 pm

questions wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The NW USA is generally a wilderness with no people.


WHAT is this drivel??

You are obviously confused with Canada’s Northwest Territories!


OK, if you ignore the coastal 60 miles, how many people live in the NW USA? I don't think the coast alone will fuel a hub in say Reno. PHX already plays that role and is a huge city (amid a gigantic region of nothing). Fly to PHX yourself and tell me what you see in the last hour of flight time!

Have you driven across Montana before? Oregon? New Mexico? Utah? Arizona? Idaho? I actually have done that... not mad just telling a story, some drivel if you like.
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 1269
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:27 pm

I don't get the negativity about AA. My last domestic F flights with AA were great. My last domestic F flight with DL just so so.
Of course, my Mint flight with B6 blew everyone out of the water! :D

Regarding AA hubs, they seem to be "placed great". DFW and MIA: for Latin-America, LAX: for TPAC, and ORD for the rest. My feeling is though that AA prefers to let BA handle most of the TATL traffic (I am sure they make big bucks with their BA JV) and CX/JL most of TPAC traffic. AA is big in Latin-America.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:20 pm

pdt2f wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
What's going on with American Airlines? I think the answer is simple: AA is becoming the world's largest ULCC

ADrum23 wrote:
For me, as a fellow Nashvillian, I'd rather have a full blown legacy hub at BNA so I can fly anywhere in the country and access some of the smaller markets that RJ flying would allow for. WN is ok, but it doesn't cover some smaller markets and lacks partners for international flying. A legacy hub would have international (TATL/TPAC) flying, more frequency on routes and flying to smaller markets. I'm not a fan of UA in general, but if they wanted to put a hub at BNA to fill their SE void, I'd be rolling out the red carpet for them.

Be careful what you wish for. A legacy hub at BNA very likely means legacy hub prices (read: expensive), especially to smaller markets where competition is non-existent.


That’s why I don’t want a legacy hub here. I’m not a business traveler, I fly on my own dime. I don’t want to be like MEM or CVG when they were hubs and their travelers were paying twice as much for air service. I’d rather have WN’s presence here and be able to fly to ca. 40 locations with them for relatively cheap than to have bragging rights because my airport has 5 daily RJ’s to Huntsville.


Funny enough AA had 5 daily 727s to HSV from BNA back in the 90s.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
slowrambler
Posts: 135
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I don't get the negativity about AA. My last domestic F flights with AA were great. My last domestic F flight with DL just so so.
Of course, my Mint flight with B6 blew everyone out of the water! :D


AA isn't willing to throw good money after bad in New York, and is making a bet that seatback TV can be replaced by streaming video to people's devices. That's pretty much it.
 
4engines4lnghll
Posts: 212
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:47 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

LAX has grown significantly since the merger and PHX has slightly shrunk. It’s not going anywhere, but it’s not getting larger.

There is also virtually no trans-Atlantic growth. All the additions are replacing something. AA cut a lot of trans-Atlantic routes at the same time of the announcements. I think the net gain was zero.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Berlin (TXL); Bologna, Italy (BLQ); and Dubrovnik, Croatia (DBV): Will be added summer seasonal service to these cities, operated on Boeing 767s between June and September 2019

​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Edinburgh, Scotland (EDI): This new service will operate daily on a Boeing 757 between April and October next year.

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍DFW to Dublin (DUB): seasonal service on a Boeing 787-9 from June through September.
CLT and DFW to MUC: In March, CLT’s first new international long-haul flight since 2014, with a daily year-round flight to MUC on an Airbus A330-200. In June, AA will add daily seasonal service from DFW to MUC on a 787-8.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍Daily seasonal ORD–ATH flight from May 3 to Sept. 28 on a 787-8, complementing the existing ATH service from PHL.

Doesn’t look like any TATL reduction to me.


Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.


Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.
4engines4lnghll
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1610
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:22 pm

4engines4lnghll wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Berlin (TXL); Bologna, Italy (BLQ); and Dubrovnik, Croatia (DBV): Will be added summer seasonal service to these cities, operated on Boeing 767s between June and September 2019

​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Edinburgh, Scotland (EDI): This new service will operate daily on a Boeing 757 between April and October next year.

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍DFW to Dublin (DUB): seasonal service on a Boeing 787-9 from June through September.
CLT and DFW to MUC: In March, CLT’s first new international long-haul flight since 2014, with a daily year-round flight to MUC on an Airbus A330-200. In June, AA will add daily seasonal service from DFW to MUC on a 787-8.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍Daily seasonal ORD–ATH flight from May 3 to Sept. 28 on a 787-8, complementing the existing ATH service from PHL.

Doesn’t look like any TATL reduction to me.


Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.


Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.


"State lines" is non-sequitur to my note on North Atlantic flying; however, going by the analysis posted here in the AA announcements thread, AA made various international cuts, to add the other routes (e.g. new PHL-Europe) and IIRC it was a net wash on seats. Do you have analysis or numbers showing otherwise for this year? It would be good to see them for the discussion.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3287
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:54 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I don't get the negativity about AA. My last domestic F flights with AA were great. My last domestic F flight with DL just so so.
Of course, my Mint flight with B6 blew everyone out of the water! :D

Regarding AA hubs, they seem to be "placed great". DFW and MIA: for Latin-America, LAX: for TPAC, and ORD for the rest. My feeling is though that AA prefers to let BA handle most of the TATL traffic (I am sure they make big bucks with their BA JV) and CX/JL most of TPAC traffic. AA is big in Latin-America.


I dont get the AA bashing either. I fly them alot and have never had a horrible experience. My flight was canceled yesterday due to weather in Chicago but I was rebooked onto a DL nonstop this morning with no problems. I think alot of people just need something to bitch about...

I fly DL alot too but somehow I never get the planes with PTV's (I'm always on CR9's, 717s, MD90s and A320s) so they are a nonfactor in my decision-making. AA is fine.
 
4engines4lnghll
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:25 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:03 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:

Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.


Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.


"State lines" is non-sequitur to my note on North Atlantic flying; however, going by the analysis posted here in the AA announcements thread, AA made various international cuts, to add the other routes (e.g. new PHL-Europe) and IIRC it was a net wash on seats. Do you have analysis or numbers showing otherwise for this year? It would be good to see them for the discussion.


It was one of many things I was noting. Take a breather and enough with the AA peanut gallery, all of you!!!
4engines4lnghll
 
4engines4lnghll
Posts: 212
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:09 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't get the negativity about AA. My last domestic F flights with AA were great. My last domestic F flight with DL just so so.
Of course, my Mint flight with B6 blew everyone out of the water! :D

Regarding AA hubs, they seem to be "placed great". DFW and MIA: for Latin-America, LAX: for TPAC, and ORD for the rest. My feeling is though that AA prefers to let BA handle most of the TATL traffic (I am sure they make big bucks with their BA JV) and CX/JL most of TPAC traffic. AA is big in Latin-America.


I dont get the AA bashing either. I fly them alot and have never had a horrible experience. My flight was canceled yesterday due to weather in Chicago but I was rebooked onto a DL nonstop this morning with no problems. I think alot of people just need something to bitch about...

I fly DL alot too but somehow I never get the planes with PTV's (I'm always on CR9's, 717s, MD90s and A320s) so they are a nonfactor in my decision-making. AA is fine.


People love to bitch. It rolls off the tongue easier than complimenting for strange reasons. Some of these a.net folks need to retire or stop with the bashing. Your pint-sized comments on here do nothing in the real world when it comes to airlines. Clearly AA is doing something right if every quarter they profit tremendously
4engines4lnghll
 
4engines4lnghll
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:25 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:15 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:

Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.


Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.


"State lines" is non-sequitur to my note on North Atlantic flying; however, going by the analysis posted here in the AA announcements thread, AA made various international cuts, to add the other routes (e.g. new PHL-Europe) and IIRC it was a net wash on seats. Do you have analysis or numbers showing otherwise for this year? It would be good to see them for the discussion.


They cut way less than what they added. So your thinly thought out points are dry. Take several seats and stop thriving over threads like this. If you don’t like them DONT FLY THEM. OH MY GOD. It’s that simple.
4engines4lnghll
 
Lexy
Posts: 1473
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:17 pm

What's going on with AA? Simple, it's US Airways parading around as American Airlines. They are the #3 legacy in my opinion.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
usairways85
Posts: 4007
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:28 pm

4engines4lnghll wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Berlin (TXL); Bologna, Italy (BLQ); and Dubrovnik, Croatia (DBV): Will be added summer seasonal service to these cities, operated on Boeing 767s between June and September 2019

​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍PHL to Edinburgh, Scotland (EDI): This new service will operate daily on a Boeing 757 between April and October next year.

‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍DFW to Dublin (DUB): seasonal service on a Boeing 787-9 from June through September.
CLT and DFW to MUC: In March, CLT’s first new international long-haul flight since 2014, with a daily year-round flight to MUC on an Airbus A330-200. In June, AA will add daily seasonal service from DFW to MUC on a 787-8.


‍​‌‌‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‌‌​​‌‌​‍Daily seasonal ORD–ATH flight from May 3 to Sept. 28 on a 787-8, complementing the existing ATH service from PHL.

Doesn’t look like any TATL reduction to me.


Look at what they cut when they announced those adds. Zero-sum basically.


Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.

No idea where this argument originated...don't really care. But it really was about a net even announcement.

The net even's
JFK-EDI to PHL-EDI
JFK-DUB to DFW-DUB
PHL-MUC to CLT-MUC

The net losses
JFK-DUB
PHL-GLA
PHL-FRA
ORD-MAN
ORD-PVG

The net adds
ORD-ATH
PHX-LHR (7 weekly replacing BA 4 weekly)
DFW-MUC
PHL-BLQ / DBV / TXL together only add up to 11 weekly flights
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7670
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:46 pm

DL knew that it would be a long hard slog to dominance in NY, and that it was going to take significant investment (including short-term losses) to get there. AA's merger with US opened the door, and DL dove in. Hard. They fortunately had the financial stability elsewhere to absorb the hit they knew they would have to take to be a meaningful presence in NY. Several years later, WOW. People who used to chide me for flying DL ("What -- you gonna fly to Vegas through Atlanta? Ha ha ha."), now talk as if it has always been NYs preferred carrier. Even as they burn off their remaining AAdvantage miles. New Yorkers do like to associate with the winner, and the herd effect is bringing them to DL as if they had always been going there, which we all know they weren't.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1610
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:46 am

4engines4lnghll wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
4engines4lnghll wrote:

Cutting a few routes and adding double the amount? Expanding across the oceans and state lines more and more.


"State lines" is non-sequitur to my note on North Atlantic flying; however, going by the analysis posted here in the AA announcements thread, AA made various international cuts, to add the other routes (e.g. new PHL-Europe) and IIRC it was a net wash on seats. Do you have analysis or numbers showing otherwise for this year? It would be good to see them for the discussion.


They cut way less than what they added. So your thinly thought out points are dry. Take several seats and stop thriving over threads like this. If you don’t like them DONT FLY THEM. OH MY GOD. It’s that simple.


Kid you need some serious post comprehension assistance. Enough with the feckless nonsense and multiple post quotes also. Nowhere did I say I hated AA nor did I point out any "thinly thought out" points. I posted facts as stated by AA themselves, which you do not like-take it up with AA. I could not care less whether that bothers you. The fact is AA has recently had a zero-sum for their international flights. They added some nice secondary markets after cutting some bigger ones. They have not added enough planes to even do what you note. In fact no where did I mention anything about their on-board service nor hard or soft product. We are discussing capacity and markets. I fly at least two flights a week, often more, and am Executive Platinum on AA (along with Global Services on UA and status on a couple of others). I will both opine and post facts AS NOTED BY AA THEMSELVES anytime I feel like it. Feel free to add me to your ignore list. You are way to emotionally involved with a publicly traded business.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
questions
Posts: 1916
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:39 am

Flighty wrote:
questions wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The NW USA is generally a wilderness with no people.


WHAT is this drivel??

You are obviously confused with Canada’s Northwest Territories!


OK, if you ignore the coastal 60 miles, how many people live in the NW USA? I don't think the coast alone will fuel a hub in say Reno. PHX already plays that role and is a huge city (amid a gigantic region of nothing). Fly to PHX yourself and tell me what you see in the last hour of flight time!

Have you driven across Montana before? Oregon? New Mexico? Utah? Arizona? Idaho? I actually have done that... not mad just telling a story, some drivel if you like.


New Mexico, Utah and Arizona are not considered to be in the NW United States.

More drivel. :D
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
DL knew that it would be a long hard slog to dominance in NY, and that it was going to take significant investment (including short-term losses) to get there. AA's merger with US opened the door, and DL dove in. Hard. They fortunately had the financial stability elsewhere to absorb the hit they knew they would have to take to be a meaningful presence in NY. Several years later, WOW. People who used to chide me for flying DL ("What -- you gonna fly to Vegas through Atlanta? Ha ha ha."), now talk as if it has always been NYs preferred carrier. Even as they burn off their remaining AAdvantage miles. New Yorkers do like to associate with the winner, and the herd effect is bringing them to DL as if they had always been going there, which we all know they weren't.


Pretty fair summary. Kind of crazy if you tell me but that's exactly how it feels in NYC.
DL did hit NYC out of the park. There were a few naysayers.
It did cost DL lots of $$$ but the timing of it appeared right.
I'm not sure what choice AA had however, with gaining PHL, after the US merger.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5217
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:50 pm

wjcandee wrote:
DL knew that it would be a long hard slog to dominance in NY, and that it was going to take significant investment (including short-term losses) to get there. AA's merger with US opened the door, and DL dove in. Hard.


I'm not sure what you mean... that AA's inattention post-merger made it easier for Delta? 'Cause the LGA/DCA slot swap got approval (after a lengthy process than dragged out 2+ years) well before the merger of AA and US. First slot swap announced 8/2009; FAA approval 10/10/2011; AA+US merger deal announced 2/2013 and completed 12/2013.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:54 pm

DL executed a particular strategy in New York, bulk up LGA and JFK, build loyalty in the area and attempt to mitigate the inconveniences of those airports. Because it was a capacity dump, fares went down. The public was pleased.

AA decided not to do that strategy becuase they were "overweight" in NYC for many years without a business rationale or a benefit to their business. Were they wrong? Has Delta made money by raising its capacity in NY? What I read is, Delta "Paid the cost" to run a NY operation. Is that a good thing? Why?
 
tphuang
Posts: 2898
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:13 pm

peanuts wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
DL knew that it would be a long hard slog to dominance in NY, and that it was going to take significant investment (including short-term losses) to get there. AA's merger with US opened the door, and DL dove in. Hard. They fortunately had the financial stability elsewhere to absorb the hit they knew they would have to take to be a meaningful presence in NY. Several years later, WOW. People who used to chide me for flying DL ("What -- you gonna fly to Vegas through Atlanta? Ha ha ha."), now talk as if it has always been NYs preferred carrier. Even as they burn off their remaining AAdvantage miles. New Yorkers do like to associate with the winner, and the herd effect is bringing them to DL as if they had always been going there, which we all know they weren't.


Pretty fair summary. Kind of crazy if you tell me but that's exactly how it feels in NYC.
DL did hit NYC out of the park. There were a few naysayers.
It did cost DL lots of $$$ but the timing of it appeared right.
I'm not sure what choice AA had however, with gaining PHL, after the US merger.


But after all that money DL lost, they are still just barely making any money in NYC. And it will stay that way as long as UA still dominates EWR, AA still dominates on some of the largest business markets out of JFK and B6 still dominates on all the leisure stuff. And the day B6 enters TATL, DL's TATL performance out of JFK will look a lot like its TCON performance right now. It's a good thing DL has its 4 fortress hubs, because its going to be in a market share battle in NYC for a long time.
 
evank516
Posts: 1935
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:28 pm

AA SHOULD be the biggest in NYC and Delta shouldn't? Listen dude, Delta made some very smart moves in NYC by doing the slot swap with US back in 2010 and they made wise choices to grow themselves at JFK. They rightfully earned their place in New York. AA had the misfortune of merging with an airline that divested a bunch of slots in New York in order to gain a bunch of slots in Washington, DC, and then had to divest some of those DCA slots to push through with the merger. AA finally gained a very profitable hub in Charlotte which allows them to connect passengers from the Northeast and Great Lakes in the same way Atlanta does for Delta. They tried it with Raleigh/Durham back in the 80s and 90s but failed miserably, now they're making it work and it's turning them into quite the tough player. No, it's not a 1,000 flight per day superhub like ATL, but it's working out very well for them and I think it's great! People connecting from parts of the Northeast to Florida now have two very viable options, DL through ATL or AA through CLT. And DFW has certainly seen some upgauges to mainline, as has CLT. I don't think anything bad is happening with AA, they're just playing the game the way it works for them, and frankly I think they're doing a pretty good job with it. And this is coming from a Delta Air Lines Silver Medallion who never flies AA and does his best not to in general, but also is in business with an AAdvantage Gold Member. AA deserves credit where credit is due, and despite the fact that they're shrinking a bit in New York (I don't see as many cuts from LaGuardia as I do JFK), they still have a large enough presence to be number 2 at LGA and number 3 at JFK. Top three is not too shabby. Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.
 
Austin787
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:23 pm

evank516 wrote:
Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.

UA has EWR which they dominate. AA does not have a NYC airport where they are #1. So far, AA is following UA's footsteps at JFK. AA elites in NYC who fly AA to places like LAX and LHR but can no longer get to places like ZRH and SJU, could move their loyalties to DL who flies from JFK to ZRH, SJU, LAX, and LHR. That causes AA's remaining JFK routes, like LAX and LHR, to lose money or become less profitable which leads to more cuts.
 
N626AA
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:02 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:27 pm

This thread and the bickering reminds why I simply love to just fly, spot, and travel. AA vs DL vs B6's vs whoever's "seat pitch" or "slots at JFK" never seemed worthy of a cat fight.
A306 319 320 321 332 333 343 B722 733 734 735 737 738 744 752 762 763 772 773 DC93 DC1040 MD82/83/88 MD90 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 E140 E145/45X DHQ3 ATR7
 
evank516
Posts: 1935
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:43 pm

Austin787 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.

UA has EWR which they dominate. AA does not have a NYC airport where they are #1. So far, AA is following UA's footsteps at JFK. AA elites in NYC who fly AA to places like LAX and LHR but can no longer get to places like ZRH and SJU, could move their loyalties to DL who flies from JFK to ZRH, SJU, LAX, and LHR. That causes AA's remaining JFK routes, like LAX and LHR, to lose money or become less profitable which leads to more cuts.


They absolutely could get to ZRH and SJU. They could connect to a BA flight in LHR bound for ZRH and they can connect in MIA to an SJU bound AA flight. They have their options. And if enough people flew AA from JFK-ZRH and JFK-SJU, then the flights would still be around. Use it or lose it.

usflyer msp wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't get the negativity about AA. My last domestic F flights with AA were great. My last domestic F flight with DL just so so.
Of course, my Mint flight with B6 blew everyone out of the water! :D

Regarding AA hubs, they seem to be "placed great". DFW and MIA: for Latin-America, LAX: for TPAC, and ORD for the rest. My feeling is though that AA prefers to let BA handle most of the TATL traffic (I am sure they make big bucks with their BA JV) and CX/JL most of TPAC traffic. AA is big in Latin-America.


I dont get the AA bashing either. I fly them alot and have never had a horrible experience. My flight was canceled yesterday due to weather in Chicago but I was rebooked onto a DL nonstop this morning with no problems. I think alot of people just need something to bitch about...

I fly DL alot too but somehow I never get the planes with PTV's (I'm always on CR9's, 717s, MD90s and A320s) so they are a nonfactor in my decision-making. AA is fine.


Some A320s have PTVs, and the remaining aircraft that don't will have them soon.
 
slider
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:52 pm

Lexy wrote:
What's going on with AA? Simple, it's US Airways parading around as American Airlines. They are the #3 legacy in my opinion.


With an HP CEO who probably has a limited shelf life, I should think....
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:32 pm

CLT's not just a northeast <--> southeast hub, its a nationwide hub. For a big chunk of NE, mid-Atlantic, and SE traffic to the larger cities on the western half of the USA (SAN, SNA, SLC, LAS, SAT, DEN, etc.) AA will try to route you through CLT. If you want to fly ORF-LAS, chances are that AA is going to try to route you (by both scheduling and by fare) through CLT.
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Darenriley
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:38 pm

On September 26, 2017 Delta announced free text messaging while flying. American Airlines, who frequently copies Delta announced its own plans on September 29th, 2017 for free texting coming soon. Delta's free texting is live but I haven't read that American's is live yet and it has been almost an entire year. Anyone have an update on this copycat strategy by American?
 
chonetsao
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Darenriley wrote:
On September 26, 2017 Delta announced free text messaging while flying. American Airlines, who frequently copies Delta announced its own plans on September 29th, 2017 for free texting coming soon. Delta's free texting is live but I haven't read that American's is live yet and it has been almost an entire year. Anyone have an update on this copycat strategy by American?


The only thing I know is that if you are a T-Mobile customer on a go-go equipped AA plane, you can have one hour free internet and free texting...
 
chonetsao
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:46 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
CLT's not just a northeast <--> southeast hub, its a nationwide hub. For a big chunk of NE, mid-Atlantic, and SE traffic to the larger cities on the western half of the USA (SAN, SNA, SLC, LAS, SAT, DEN, etc.) AA will try to route you through CLT. If you want to fly ORF-LAS, chances are that AA is going to try to route you (by both scheduling and by fare) through CLT.


I can not bear with CLT due to LUS airplanes. I like LAA planes with PTV and paddled seats much better. To me CLT means Chaotic Leftover Terminal...
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:50 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
CLT's not just a northeast <--> southeast hub, its a nationwide hub. For a big chunk of NE, mid-Atlantic, and SE traffic to the larger cities on the western half of the USA (SAN, SNA, SLC, LAS, SAT, DEN, etc.) AA will try to route you through CLT. If you want to fly ORF-LAS, chances are that AA is going to try to route you (by both scheduling and by fare) through CLT.


The unfortunate part about this is that AA hasn't been able to leverage this to make ORD stronger. By taking some of the pax that previously would have flown via ORD off those flights and putting them on CLT flights (which need the feed due to a smaller market), you would like to see AA make a stronger play in ORD against UA but thus far they don't seem to be able to do that at all. I get that the fleet is limiting them some but that is more on the int'l/widebody side. The domestic/narrow body fleet should be hurting them thus allowing them to be more aggressive in ORD.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:54 pm

chonetsao wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
CLT's not just a northeast <--> southeast hub, its a nationwide hub. For a big chunk of NE, mid-Atlantic, and SE traffic to the larger cities on the western half of the USA (SAN, SNA, SLC, LAS, SAT, DEN, etc.) AA will try to route you through CLT. If you want to fly ORF-LAS, chances are that AA is going to try to route you (by both scheduling and by fare) through CLT.


I can not bear with CLT due to LUS airplanes. I like LAA planes with PTV and paddled seats much better. To me CLT means Chaotic Leftover Terminal...


The terminals are certainly cramped however there are major renovations being done to improve that. At the end of the day, if you're just connecting, is the terminal at the midpoint really an issue? Never has been to me but that's my experience. I could see if you always transit via XYZ and they always lose your bag but is that the case???
 
airzona11
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:55 pm

Internationally, PE/J class are awesome products. Product seems in line or better with CX/JL their partners.

Domestic is domestic, hyper competitive and price (cost) sensitivite. On premium routes they have an offering that is premium. Internationally, where they can stratify they offering and earn a premium, I am curious where AA is behind any of their OneWorld partners, for instance? Especially towards the front of the cabin.

chonetsao wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
CLT's not just a northeast <--> southeast hub, its a nationwide hub. For a big chunk of NE, mid-Atlantic, and SE traffic to the larger cities on the western half of the USA (SAN, SNA, SLC, LAS, SAT, DEN, etc.) AA will try to route you through CLT. If you want to fly ORF-LAS, chances are that AA is going to try to route you (by both scheduling and by fare) through CLT.


I can not bear with CLT due to LUS airplanes. I like LAA planes with PTV and paddled seats much better. To me CLT means Chaotic Leftover Terminal...


LUS A320s/321s have the best legroom in the fleet. PHX/CLT are the best hubs to transit through bc of that, IMHO.
 
Flighty
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:00 pm

evank516 wrote:
AA SHOULD be the biggest in NYC and Delta shouldn't? Listen dude, Delta made some very smart moves in NYC by doing the slot swap with US back in 2010 and they made wise choices to grow themselves at JFK. They rightfully earned their place in New York. AA had the misfortune of merging with an airline that divested a bunch of slots in New York in order to gain a bunch of slots in Washington, DC, and then had to divest some of those DCA slots to push through with the merger. AA finally gained a very profitable hub in Charlotte which allows them to connect passengers from the Northeast and Great Lakes in the same way Atlanta does for Delta. They tried it with Raleigh/Durham back in the 80s and 90s but failed miserably, now they're making it work and it's turning them into quite the tough player. No, it's not a 1,000 flight per day superhub like ATL, but it's working out very well for them and I think it's great! People connecting from parts of the Northeast to Florida now have two very viable options, DL through ATL or AA through CLT. And DFW has certainly seen some upgauges to mainline, as has CLT. I don't think anything bad is happening with AA, they're just playing the game the way it works for them, and frankly I think they're doing a pretty good job with it. And this is coming from a Delta Air Lines Silver Medallion who never flies AA and does his best not to in general, but also is in business with an AAdvantage Gold Member. AA deserves credit where credit is due, and despite the fact that they're shrinking a bit in New York (I don't see as many cuts from LaGuardia as I do JFK), they still have a large enough presence to be number 2 at LGA and number 3 at JFK. Top three is not too shabby. Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.


I think American CEO Doug Parker actually agrees with the things Doug Parker did at US Airways on LGA slots. It was a coup. US had too many slots and was squatting on them. Meanwhile, a couple hundred miles south, their incredible DCA focus/hub was making money hand over fist as DC wealth and power boomed. Their slot swap with Delta gave them DCA slots while Delta got some LGA slots to play with. US knew all too well the limited profitability at LGA and was happy to hand over those slots for actual moneymaking slots at DCA. Then, the merger with AA removed all doubt as to whether they would have adequate LGA slots in the end. By divesting LGA slots early, they avoided a bigger divestment during the merger than there was (and for which they would have gotten nothing). Instead they got 42 DCA slots.

And the LGA slots were mostly kept out of the LCC/ULCC marketplace too, so my goodness, that is how we do that.
Last edited by Flighty on Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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American 767
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:07 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
The terminals are certainly cramped however there are major renovations being done to improve that.


Yes I saw that. I flew through CLT twice within the last year, once end of last year and once earlier this year, back in January. I saw a lot of work being done on one of the concourses in the US, now AA hub, a lot of panels in the ceiling opened, I could see all the pipelines, and some scaffolding. It looked like a real work area. I haven't been there since so I don't know how it is now. The lounge, however, is good.
Ben Soriano
 
evank516
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:31 pm

Flighty wrote:
evank516 wrote:
AA SHOULD be the biggest in NYC and Delta shouldn't? Listen dude, Delta made some very smart moves in NYC by doing the slot swap with US back in 2010 and they made wise choices to grow themselves at JFK. They rightfully earned their place in New York. AA had the misfortune of merging with an airline that divested a bunch of slots in New York in order to gain a bunch of slots in Washington, DC, and then had to divest some of those DCA slots to push through with the merger. AA finally gained a very profitable hub in Charlotte which allows them to connect passengers from the Northeast and Great Lakes in the same way Atlanta does for Delta. They tried it with Raleigh/Durham back in the 80s and 90s but failed miserably, now they're making it work and it's turning them into quite the tough player. No, it's not a 1,000 flight per day superhub like ATL, but it's working out very well for them and I think it's great! People connecting from parts of the Northeast to Florida now have two very viable options, DL through ATL or AA through CLT. And DFW has certainly seen some upgauges to mainline, as has CLT. I don't think anything bad is happening with AA, they're just playing the game the way it works for them, and frankly I think they're doing a pretty good job with it. And this is coming from a Delta Air Lines Silver Medallion who never flies AA and does his best not to in general, but also is in business with an AAdvantage Gold Member. AA deserves credit where credit is due, and despite the fact that they're shrinking a bit in New York (I don't see as many cuts from LaGuardia as I do JFK), they still have a large enough presence to be number 2 at LGA and number 3 at JFK. Top three is not too shabby. Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.


I think American CEO Doug Parker actually agrees with the things Doug Parker did at US Airways on LGA slots. It was a coup. US had too many slots and was squatting on them. Meanwhile, a couple hundred miles south, their incredible DCA focus/hub was making money hand over fist as DC wealth and power boomed. Their slot swap with Delta gave them DCA slots while Delta got some LGA slots to play with. US knew all too well the limited profitability at LGA and was happy to hand over those slots for actual moneymaking slots at DCA. Then, the merger with AA removed all doubt as to whether they would have adequate LGA slots in the end. By divesting LGA slots early, they avoided a bigger divestment during the merger than there was (and for which they would have gotten nothing). Instead they got 42 DCA slots.

And the LGA slots were mostly kept out of the LCC/ULCC marketplace too, so my goodness, that is how we do that.


The LGA Slots were mostly kept out of the LCC/ULCC marketplace? Are you sure about that? I seem to remember LCCs getting the bulk of the divested slots at LGA, and I think that was the opener for WN entering DCA also.

As for the rest of your post, pretty difficult to determine your tone.
 
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:40 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I can not bear with CLT due to LUS airplanes. I like LAA planes with PTV and paddled seats much better. To me CLT means Chaotic Leftover Terminal...

Obviously extremely picky people out there. I have transitioned through CLT numerous times over the years. Never a problem. I flew on US planes to the West Coast. Again, never a problem. No, their product is not as good as Delta's in most cases, but they got me to my destination, and that is what I bought a ticket for.

I guess I am just not picky.
 
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:32 pm

BroadwayLimited wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I can not bear with CLT due to LUS airplanes. I like LAA planes with PTV and paddled seats much better. To me CLT means Chaotic Leftover Terminal...

Obviously extremely picky people out there. I have transitioned through CLT numerous times over the years. Never a problem. I flew on US planes to the West Coast. Again, never a problem. No, their product is not as good as Delta's in most cases, but they got me to my destination, and that is what I bought a ticket for.

I guess I am just not picky.


Going through CLT isn't really a big deal, and I never had an issue with the LUS aircraft before the merger. I've flown US plenty of times over the last 3 decades and almost all flights involved a connection in CLT. The planes were fine, in fact I've been on LUS A319s, A320s, and A321s and had no issues with any of them.
 
SteelChair
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
peanuts wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
DL knew that it would be a long hard slog to dominance in NY, and that it was going to take significant investment (including short-term losses) to get there. AA's merger with US opened the door, and DL dove in. Hard. They fortunately had the financial stability elsewhere to absorb the hit they knew they would have to take to be a meaningful presence in NY. Several years later, WOW. People who used to chide me for flying DL ("What -- you gonna fly to Vegas through Atlanta? Ha ha ha."), now talk as if it has always been NYs preferred carrier. Even as they burn off their remaining AAdvantage miles. New Yorkers do like to associate with the winner, and the herd effect is bringing them to DL as if they had always been going there, which we all know they weren't.


Pretty fair summary. Kind of crazy if you tell me but that's exactly how it feels in NYC.
DL did hit NYC out of the park. There were a few naysayers.
It did cost DL lots of $$$ but the timing of it appeared right.
I'm not sure what choice AA had however, with gaining PHL, after the US merger.


But after all that money DL lost, they are still just barely making any money in NYC. And it will stay that way as long as UA still dominates EWR, AA still dominates on some of the largest business markets out of JFK and B6 still dominates on all the leisure stuff. And the day B6 enters TATL, DL's TATL performance out of JFK will look a lot like its TCON performance right now. It's a good thing DL has its 4 fortress hubs, because its going to be in a market share battle in NYC for a long time.


Several folks have asserted on this thread that Delta is just barely making money in NYC, and/or has inly been amking money for the last 2 years.

Does anyone have a link to or other information to verify that this is true?
 
tphuang
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
tphuang wrote:
peanuts wrote:

Pretty fair summary. Kind of crazy if you tell me but that's exactly how it feels in NYC.
DL did hit NYC out of the park. There were a few naysayers.
It did cost DL lots of $$$ but the timing of it appeared right.
I'm not sure what choice AA had however, with gaining PHL, after the US merger.


But after all that money DL lost, they are still just barely making any money in NYC. And it will stay that way as long as UA still dominates EWR, AA still dominates on some of the largest business markets out of JFK and B6 still dominates on all the leisure stuff. And the day B6 enters TATL, DL's TATL performance out of JFK will look a lot like its TCON performance right now. It's a good thing DL has its 4 fortress hubs, because its going to be in a market share battle in NYC for a long time.


Several folks have asserted on this thread that Delta is just barely making money in NYC, and/or has inly been amking money for the last 2 years.

Does anyone have a link to or other information to verify that this is true?


You mean aside from what Kirby said recently? As for more in depth, you'd have to look at the yields that DL generates on some of the routes out of JFK/LGA. For example on those JFK to Florida routes where B6 has about the same yield despite having probably 25 to 40% lower cost (running A321s vs B738s or A320vs vs B717/CR9). I don't have info on the island route, but I'd imagine the numbers are very similar. There is a reason AA doesn't even try to compete in that market. And then NYC to UA/AA hubs like DFW/IAH/CLT/DEN, where it's loosing a lot money having trouble filling planes. Remember, AA/B6 don't have competitive schedules on a lot of JFK to other airline hub routes, whereas DL is willing to absorb the loss and putting competitive schedules on them.

Now, DL does benefit from its more comprehensive network out of NYC, so it generates higher yield to more neutral airports. And it also does better out of LGA because it doesn't have to face the same level of B6 pressure. But as a whole, it's not large enough yet to really reap the reward of having the largest market share. But it is large enough to compete on a lot of routes where it has network disadvantage.

Over maybe the past couple of years, you can see DL gaining in performance as AA has backed off. But if this JFK slot restriction goes away, things will change again.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:47 pm

At this mornings Cowen & Co. investor conference Robert Isom explicitly stated near to medium growth will focus on DFW, CLT & DCA, in that order.
Some interesting remarks about earnings guidance too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... costs/amp/
 
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:52 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
At this mornings Cowen & Co. investor conference Robert Isom explicitly stated near to medium growth will focus on DFW, CLT & DCA, in that order.
Some interesting remarks about earnings guidance too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... costs/amp/

Interesting article. With that being said, I could have sworn that I saw something not too long ago that said that PHL was going to be the major point of expansion for their route network, but that must have changed since then...
 
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:24 pm

tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
tphuang wrote:

But after all that money DL lost, they are still just barely making any money in NYC. And it will stay that way as long as UA still dominates EWR, AA still dominates on some of the largest business markets out of JFK and B6 still dominates on all the leisure stuff. And the day B6 enters TATL, DL's TATL performance out of JFK will look a lot like its TCON performance right now. It's a good thing DL has its 4 fortress hubs, because its going to be in a market share battle in NYC for a long time.


Several folks have asserted on this thread that Delta is just barely making money in NYC, and/or has inly been amking money for the last 2 years.

Does anyone have a link to or other information to verify that this is true?


You mean aside from what Kirby said recently? As for more in depth, you'd have to look at the yields that DL generates on some of the routes out of JFK/LGA. For example on those JFK to Florida routes where B6 has about the same yield despite having probably 25 to 40% lower cost (running A321s vs B738s or A320vs vs B717/CR9). I don't have info on the island route, but I'd imagine the numbers are very similar. There is a reason AA doesn't even try to compete in that market. And then NYC to UA/AA hubs like DFW/IAH/CLT/DEN, where it's loosing a lot money having trouble filling planes. Remember, AA/B6 don't have competitive schedules on a lot of JFK to other airline hub routes, whereas DL is willing to absorb the loss and putting competitive schedules on them.

Now, DL does benefit from its more comprehensive network out of NYC, so it generates higher yield to more neutral airports. And it also does better out of LGA because it doesn't have to face the same level of B6 pressure. But as a whole, it's not large enough yet to really reap the reward of having the largest market share. But it is large enough to compete on a lot of routes where it has network disadvantage.

Over maybe the past couple of years, you can see DL gaining in performance as AA has backed off. But if this JFK slot restriction goes away, things will change again.


So in other words, its all speculation. No problem, its an enthusiast message board. Just wanted to clear up what you and a few others stated so unequivocally. Generally speaking, I tend to agree with you but I would love to see some data.

And taking Kirby's word on a competitor's confidential, market specific, economic information......no thank you. He is just trying to justify AA's retreat imho. "Theres no money to be made there, we're going to the markets where we can make money," or some such.

At the same time, there must be some truth to what he says. I have wondered for years why certain airlines focus so much on NYC. Sure, there's a lot of revenue there, but there is also tons of competition. And the costs are off the chart. Throw in the crowded, complex, airspace and 1960s era ATC methodology and its a witches brew. But as the saying goes, if you can make it there....
 
tphuang
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:26 pm

SteelChair wrote:
tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Several folks have asserted on this thread that Delta is just barely making money in NYC, and/or has inly been amking money for the last 2 years.

Does anyone have a link to or other information to verify that this is true?


You mean aside from what Kirby said recently? As for more in depth, you'd have to look at the yields that DL generates on some of the routes out of JFK/LGA. For example on those JFK to Florida routes where B6 has about the same yield despite having probably 25 to 40% lower cost (running A321s vs B738s or A320vs vs B717/CR9). I don't have info on the island route, but I'd imagine the numbers are very similar. There is a reason AA doesn't even try to compete in that market. And then NYC to UA/AA hubs like DFW/IAH/CLT/DEN, where it's loosing a lot money having trouble filling planes. Remember, AA/B6 don't have competitive schedules on a lot of JFK to other airline hub routes, whereas DL is willing to absorb the loss and putting competitive schedules on them.

Now, DL does benefit from its more comprehensive network out of NYC, so it generates higher yield to more neutral airports. And it also does better out of LGA because it doesn't have to face the same level of B6 pressure. But as a whole, it's not large enough yet to really reap the reward of having the largest market share. But it is large enough to compete on a lot of routes where it has network disadvantage.

Over maybe the past couple of years, you can see DL gaining in performance as AA has backed off. But if this JFK slot restriction goes away, things will change again.


So in other words, its all speculation. No problem, its an enthusiast message board. Just wanted to clear up what you and a few others stated so unequivocally. Generally speaking, I tend to agree with you but I would love to see some data.

And taking Kirby's word on a competitor's confidential, market specific, economic information......no thank you. He is just trying to justify AA's retreat imho. "Theres no money to be made there, we're going to the markets where we can make money," or some such.

Once again, I somewhat agree with him. I have wondered for years why certain airlines focus so much on NYC. Sure, there's a lot of revenue there, but there is also tons of competition. And the costs are off the chart. Throw in the crowded, complex, airspace and 1960s era ATC methodology and its a witches brew. But as the saying goes, if you can make it there....

You don’t have to believe me but I have called out a lot of routes that are not doing well based on data I saw and have been right.
 
evank516
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:31 pm

tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
tphuang wrote:

You mean aside from what Kirby said recently? As for more in depth, you'd have to look at the yields that DL generates on some of the routes out of JFK/LGA. For example on those JFK to Florida routes where B6 has about the same yield despite having probably 25 to 40% lower cost (running A321s vs B738s or A320vs vs B717/CR9). I don't have info on the island route, but I'd imagine the numbers are very similar. There is a reason AA doesn't even try to compete in that market. And then NYC to UA/AA hubs like DFW/IAH/CLT/DEN, where it's loosing a lot money having trouble filling planes. Remember, AA/B6 don't have competitive schedules on a lot of JFK to other airline hub routes, whereas DL is willing to absorb the loss and putting competitive schedules on them.

Now, DL does benefit from its more comprehensive network out of NYC, so it generates higher yield to more neutral airports. And it also does better out of LGA because it doesn't have to face the same level of B6 pressure. But as a whole, it's not large enough yet to really reap the reward of having the largest market share. But it is large enough to compete on a lot of routes where it has network disadvantage.

Over maybe the past couple of years, you can see DL gaining in performance as AA has backed off. But if this JFK slot restriction goes away, things will change again.


So in other words, its all speculation. No problem, its an enthusiast message board. Just wanted to clear up what you and a few others stated so unequivocally. Generally speaking, I tend to agree with you but I would love to see some data.

And taking Kirby's word on a competitor's confidential, market specific, economic information......no thank you. He is just trying to justify AA's retreat imho. "Theres no money to be made there, we're going to the markets where we can make money," or some such.

Once again, I somewhat agree with him. I have wondered for years why certain airlines focus so much on NYC. Sure, there's a lot of revenue there, but there is also tons of competition. And the costs are off the chart. Throw in the crowded, complex, airspace and 1960s era ATC methodology and its a witches brew. But as the saying goes, if you can make it there....

You don’t have to believe me but I have called out a lot of routes that are not doing well based on data I saw and have been right.


You forgot to mention ORD which DL recently upgauged from LGA from all E175s to a mix of 717s and E175s. Those flights are filling up. As for JFK-Florida, not sure who we're talking about, but I can see DL adding A321s on more of those routes once more come online. I think they toss them around on JFK/LGA-MCO.
 
tphuang
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Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:09 pm

evank516 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

So in other words, its all speculation. No problem, its an enthusiast message board. Just wanted to clear up what you and a few others stated so unequivocally. Generally speaking, I tend to agree with you but I would love to see some data.

And taking Kirby's word on a competitor's confidential, market specific, economic information......no thank you. He is just trying to justify AA's retreat imho. "Theres no money to be made there, we're going to the markets where we can make money," or some such.

Once again, I somewhat agree with him. I have wondered for years why certain airlines focus so much on NYC. Sure, there's a lot of revenue there, but there is also tons of competition. And the costs are off the chart. Throw in the crowded, complex, airspace and 1960s era ATC methodology and its a witches brew. But as the saying goes, if you can make it there....

You don’t have to believe me but I have called out a lot of routes that are not doing well based on data I saw and have been right.


You forgot to mention ORD which DL recently upgauged from LGA from all E175s to a mix of 717s and E175s. Those flights are filling up. As for JFK-Florida, not sure who we're talking about, but I can see DL adding A321s on more of those routes once more come online. I think they toss them around on JFK/LGA-MCO.


It's very hard to figure LGA-ORD because both UA/DL operate SkyWest on this route. So with publicly available data, I can't separate between UA and DL operated ones.

For Florida, I've looked at JFK-FLL/MCO/PBI/JAX/RSW/TPA. On every route, B6 operates a higher density, lower CASM plane on average. And that doesn't even factor in B6's natural CASM advantage over legacies.

Here is a breakdown for Q1 this year.
CityPair Carrier Seats Flights PerFlight
JFKFLL DL 115162 653 176.3583
JFKFLL B6 258818 1398 185.1345

JFKMCO DL 130744 788 165.9188
JFKMCO B6 239013 1271 188.0511

JFKTPA DL 81340 686 118.5714
JFKTPA B6 101510 647 156.8934

JFKRSW DL 30221 216 139.912
JFKRSW B6 92566 632 146.4652

JFKPBI DL 33128 247 134.1215
JFKPBI B6 152170 889 171.1699

JFKJAX DL 36002 472 76.2754
JFKJAX B6 75208 515 146.035
And this doesn't account for summer time, when DL typically operates lower density planes on routes like JFK-FLL/MCO. For example today, DL is operating all B717 on JFK-FLL and A320 on JFK-MCO.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:28 pm

Flighty wrote:
The NW USA is generally a wilderness with no people.



Hahahaha! Are you one of those education challenged people who think that Canadians live in Igloos too? Or are you joking?

You mean the Pacific Northwest that has about 15 Million people living here, and probably a much stronger economy than where you live? That wilderness with no people?

You mean where the main airport for the USA NW wilderness is a hub for two major airlines and is bursting at the seams with so many new international flights? Not to mention the wilderness NW city in Canada where they live in igloos and has an airport that has a huge amount of international flights.

Back to topic now: I like AA but stuff like reducing to 30" seat pitch is really making it uninviting. I've flown on 737s by AS, AA, and DL in the past 9 months. The AA seats and seat pitch were much less comfortable than AS and DL. It was noticeable.

To be fair, I flew AA 789s LAX-AKL and SYD-LAX and it was tolerable. The flights were on time; the airplane clean; crew and service pretty good in coach. The 3-3-3 seating is tolerable - not great but tolerable - but I'm not a real large person, and had two young slender women next to me (my girlfriend ponied up for Main Cabin Extra so was not next to me). It would be miserable if I were over 200 pounds and had two big dudes sitting next to me.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:31 pm

evank516 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
evank516 wrote:
AA SHOULD be the biggest in NYC and Delta shouldn't? Listen dude, Delta made some very smart moves in NYC by doing the slot swap with US back in 2010 and they made wise choices to grow themselves at JFK. They rightfully earned their place in New York. AA had the misfortune of merging with an airline that divested a bunch of slots in New York in order to gain a bunch of slots in Washington, DC, and then had to divest some of those DCA slots to push through with the merger. AA finally gained a very profitable hub in Charlotte which allows them to connect passengers from the Northeast and Great Lakes in the same way Atlanta does for Delta. They tried it with Raleigh/Durham back in the 80s and 90s but failed miserably, now they're making it work and it's turning them into quite the tough player. No, it's not a 1,000 flight per day superhub like ATL, but it's working out very well for them and I think it's great! People connecting from parts of the Northeast to Florida now have two very viable options, DL through ATL or AA through CLT. And DFW has certainly seen some upgauges to mainline, as has CLT. I don't think anything bad is happening with AA, they're just playing the game the way it works for them, and frankly I think they're doing a pretty good job with it. And this is coming from a Delta Air Lines Silver Medallion who never flies AA and does his best not to in general, but also is in business with an AAdvantage Gold Member. AA deserves credit where credit is due, and despite the fact that they're shrinking a bit in New York (I don't see as many cuts from LaGuardia as I do JFK), they still have a large enough presence to be number 2 at LGA and number 3 at JFK. Top three is not too shabby. Take a look at UA and their presence at JFK. Big fat ZERO, now that's an airline who made a mistake when it comes to the NYC Market.


I think American CEO Doug Parker actually agrees with the things Doug Parker did at US Airways on LGA slots. It was a coup. US had too many slots and was squatting on them. Meanwhile, a couple hundred miles south, their incredible DCA focus/hub was making money hand over fist as DC wealth and power boomed. Their slot swap with Delta gave them DCA slots while Delta got some LGA slots to play with. US knew all too well the limited profitability at LGA and was happy to hand over those slots for actual moneymaking slots at DCA. Then, the merger with AA removed all doubt as to whether they would have adequate LGA slots in the end. By divesting LGA slots early, they avoided a bigger divestment during the merger than there was (and for which they would have gotten nothing). Instead they got 42 DCA slots.

And the LGA slots were mostly kept out of the LCC/ULCC marketplace too, so my goodness, that is how we do that.


The LGA Slots were mostly kept out of the LCC/ULCC marketplace? Are you sure about that? I seem to remember LCCs getting the bulk of the divested slots at LGA, and I think that was the opener for WN entering DCA also.

As for the rest of your post, pretty difficult to determine your tone.


You're not looking at the right information. The 120~ LGA slots swapped to Delta were kept out of the hands of LCCs. One year or so later, during merger time, Forbes said this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgr ... 8e5a234908

Summary: During merger settlement with DOJ, the combined AA-US was forced to cut 44 of 290 flights at DCA and 12 of 175 LGA flights. You're right about LCC getting more access to DCA through this. But if you combine 2012 and 2013 slot transactions, AA-US lost a total of 2 DCA flights at an airport they dominate. And they lost ~130 of 300 LGA slots, primarily to Delta. This was, overall, a good result.
 
subramak1
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:46 pm

Flighty wrote:
questions wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The NW USA is generally a wilderness with no people.


WHAT is this drivel??

You are obviously confused with Canada’s Northwest Territories!


OK, if you ignore the coastal 60 miles, how many people live in the NW USA? I don't think the coast alone will fuel a hub in say Reno. PHX already plays that role and is a huge city (amid a gigantic region of nothing). Fly to PHX yourself and tell me what you see in the last hour of flight time!

Have you driven across Montana before? Oregon? New Mexico? Utah? Arizona? Idaho? I actually have done that... not mad just telling a story, some drivel if you like.


I lived in Denver for 4 years and drove a lot in Wyoming, Southern Colorado, New Mexico. There is not even a rest stop in I25 for 50 miles or so. Outside of I70 corridor between Denver and Glenwood Springs and I25 between Cheyenne and Pueblo, the rest of these 3 states hardly have any population.

Subu
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:50 pm

It was said in an interview
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: What the heck is going on with American Airlines?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:58 pm

Flighty wrote:
questions wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The NW USA is generally a wilderness with no people.


WHAT is this drivel??

You are obviously confused with Canada’s Northwest Territories!


OK, if you ignore the coastal 60 miles, how many people live in the NW USA? I don't think the coast alone will fuel a hub in say Reno. PHX already plays that role and is a huge city (amid a gigantic region of nothing). Fly to PHX yourself and tell me what you see in the last hour of flight time!

Have you driven across Montana before? Oregon? New Mexico? Utah? Arizona? Idaho? I actually have done that... not mad just telling a story, some drivel if you like.


You need a geography lesson, my friend. Reno is not in the NW. I could say the same for California. How many people live in the eastern part of the state? It's mostly wilderness. Very little. Not sure what that has to do with anything. How many people live in far upstate New York?

Montana, New Mexico, Utah, Arizona and parts of Idaho are not part of the NW. That's why there are no large airports there other than PHX.

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