alan3
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Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:27 am

I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model?

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).
Last edited by alan3 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
HJM
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:30 am

Air Canada rouge will be based in YYZ.
 
Eso91
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:39 am

alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model? Did I miss something? I wasn't able to find a back up of why.

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


I know that they're sending the 737 MAXs to OGG from YVR in October. I was talking to an FA of my flight frm Edmonton to Vancouver to make the connection to Kahului, and he said that's what was planned. I would assume that the 737s are much better from a passenger perspective than the Rouge 767s. My flight was easily the worst and most uncomfortable I've ever had.
 
alan3
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:47 am

Eso91 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model? Did I miss something? I wasn't able to find a back up of why.

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


I know that they're sending the 737 MAXs to OGG from YVR in October. I was talking to an FA of my flight frm Edmonton to Vancouver to make the connection to Kahului, and he said that's what was planned. I would assume that the 737s are much better from a passenger perspective than the Rouge 767s. My flight was easily the worst and most uncomfortable I've ever had.



Indeed, the news is great to me because Rouge is quite awful. But if Rouge is being pulled from everywhere in Canada except for Toronto, that seems to be a pretty major admission of fault in the Rouge model, which I thought would have been a bigger story. Also I take it there will be a fair number of laid off Rouge F/A's.
Last edited by alan3 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jayce
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:00 am

HJM wrote:
Air Canada rouge will be based in YYZ.


Yup, they closed the YVR rouge base.

Also there were some high level complaints about the Rouging of services. I think it was Rob Lowe who complained after flying between YVR and LAX.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
chrisa330
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:09 am

Eso91 wrote:
I know that they're sending the 737 MAXs to OGG from YVR in October. I was talking to an FA of my flight frm Edmonton to Vancouver to make the connection to Kahului, and he said that's what was planned. I would assume that the 737s are much better from a passenger perspective than the Rouge 767s. My flight was easily the worst and most uncomfortable I've ever had.


AC’s 737s have the same pitch in Y with a narrower seat when compared to the rouge 767. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:14 am

The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.
 
chrisa330
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:14 am

HJM wrote:
Air Canada rouge will be based in YYZ.


So they’re closing the YUL base too? Source?

Rouge is being consolidated to eastern Canada...from an operational perspective it makes managing the fleet much easier. Plus the 737Max give AC much more flexibility especially to Hawaii.

There are still a significant number of routes operated exYUL...especially to Europe in the summer.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:20 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.


However Qantas/Jetstar has worked very well - so your blanket dismissal is perhaps a conclusion too far.

QF learned from its Australian Airlines experience what not to do and didn't do it with JQ. JQ has new fleet, and a dedicated role (cost focussed leisure (incl VFR)). Id suggest that all the other failures didnt have their strategic direction for the 'second' airline correct. Indeed considering it a second airline is perhaps the fault. JQ and QF stand side by side in the QF strategic structure.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:42 am

Rouge is a huge success at Air Canada. Period.

In spite of all those that wish it weren't so, the 90s load factors and high repeat rate prove otherwise. Rouge isn't going anywhere.

The main reason mainline is taking back some Rouge routes is because with the MAX8, now mainline has a good plane for some ex Rouge missions. YVR - Hawaii is a good example. Another reason, is that there isn't enough Rouge to go around. They are running with the most aircraft they can right now. Mainline taking over some routes has allowed Rouge aircraft on other routes.

Jayce wrote:
I think it was Rob Lowe who complained after flying between YVR and LAX.

I am sure M. Lowe would like to pretend his opinions are relevant but in fact it was the complaints of higher level frequent flyers bemoaning the lack of the true business class cabin that changed Rouge configurations on the A319. (but not placement of the aircraft).

In fact, the true mission of Rouge was made apparent on the YVR-LAX route ... Air Canada went from 17% to 54% market share with the introduction of Rouge, and knocked the incumbent, Alaska Airlines, right out of the market! The threat of Rouge returning has kept competition at bay.

It really doesn't matter where Rouge is "based". Pilots can be moved about anywhere. At the moment, Rouge bases are YYZ and YUL.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:43 am

alan3 wrote:
Eso91 wrote:
Also I take it there will be a fair number of laid off Rouge F/A's.


I almost read that as there will be a "Flair" number lol.

There was a Facebook advertisement recently for Rouge flight attendants. Why would they hire if lay offs are pending?
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B748eye
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. ...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.

TS, WG, and WS wish this post about RV was anywhere near accurate
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
I almost read that as there will be a "Flair" number lol.

There was a Facebook advertisement recently for Rouge flight attendants. Why would they hire if lay offs are pending?

No Rouge F/A layoffs.

The fact that the Rouge fleet is at its maximum and will grow as allowed is probably the best indication of how well it is doing. Besides, with certain restrictions, F/As can move between mainline and Rouge.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
alan3
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:11 am

longhauler wrote:
Rouge is a huge success at Air Canada. Period.


Some might find "huge success" a curious term given the closure of many Rouge bases and removal of many Rouge routes. I'm not saying it's not, becuase I have no inside knowledge, I just find it curious.

If the Rouge model of business was such a success, wouldn't they expand the fleet, such as adding older A320's to Rouge or even leasing additional older planes in order to keep flying Rouge on routes like PHX, PSP, LAS and Mexico?

Was putting Rouge to Japan ever a really good idea?
 
axiom
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:20 am

alan3 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Rouge is a huge success at Air Canada. Period.


Some might find "huge success" a curious term given the closure of many Rouge bases across Canada and a large number of Rouge routes being removed, other than from YYZ and YUL. I'm not saying it's not, becuase I have no inside knowledge of the company, I just find it curious.

If the Rouge model of business was such a success, wouldn't they expand the fleet, such as adding older A320's to Rouge or even leasing additional older planes in order to keep flying Rouge on routes like PHX, PSP, LAS and Mexico?

Was putting Rouge to Japan ever a really good idea?



The RV fleet is capped in size per an agreement with AC labour. Adding and subtracting individual routes, or consolidating operations in given markets, aren't really signs of success or failure, either way. RV has opened up a large number of routes and allowed AC to grow their market share substantially in several bread and butter markets, even as some routes have been shuffled to and from mainline. By all accounts, RV is doing more than fine.
 
questions
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:24 am

What IS the Rouge business model? How is it positioned with Air Canada so as not to cannibalize Air Canada revenue?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:50 am

alan3 wrote:
Some might find "huge success" a curious term given the closure of many Rouge bases and removal of many Rouge routes. I'm not saying it's not, becuase I have no inside knowledge, I just find it curious.

If the Rouge model of business was such a success, wouldn't they expand the fleet, such as adding older A320's to Rouge or even leasing additional older planes in order to keep flying Rouge on routes like PHX, PSP, LAS and Mexico?

Was putting Rouge to Japan ever a really good idea?

I think the best indication of Rouge's success, is that Air Canada is using Rouge at it's maximum. And want more ...

If that were not the case, then I'd be suspicious. "Adding older A320s to Rouge" is not an option right now, but man oh man, Air Canada would sure love to!

Moving Rouge routes around is what makes it flexible. In reality it is no different than leisure airlines moving aricraft around season to season as traffic patterns change during the year. The Rouge A321 that is flying YLW-YYZ today will be flying YYZ-CUN in January.

Why not Rouge to Japan? It opened up a route that was not being flown. Look at Rouge's routes to Europe, same idea, same function. With a low yield, a 217 seat 767 with lie flat J seats makes no sense ... but a 280 seat 767, very different story!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:57 am

questions wrote:
What IS the Rouge business model? How is it positioned with Air Canada so as not to cannibalize Air Canada revenue?

In my opinion, two functions ....

Using a denser configuration, a Rouge aircraft makes a marginal route profitable. Knowing that people will not pay more for a more comfortable aircraft with more amenities. Say YYZ-VRA for example. AC could not charge more than Sunwing ... so compare margins with their 189 seat 737 to AC's 120 seat A319. Enter Rouge.

Starting, (or restarting an old route), that was currently offered only as a connection. A European destination only offered as a connection through FRA for example. Air Canada can offer a non-stop flight on Rouge and not split the fare with LH. In most cases, the non-stop was more expensive than the connection!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Eso91
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:36 am

chrisa330 wrote:
Eso91 wrote:
I know that they're sending the 737 MAXs to OGG from YVR in October. I was talking to an FA of my flight frm Edmonton to Vancouver to make the connection to Kahului, and he said that's what was planned. I would assume that the 737s are much better from a passenger perspective than the Rouge 767s. My flight was easily the worst and most uncomfortable I've ever had.


AC’s 737s have the same pitch in Y with a narrower seat when compared to the rouge 767. Be careful what you wish for.


Oh, well I wouldn’t have known, as I haven’t been on one of the new 737. The seating putch was just one problem though. The seats were also this itchy material. I also just generally prefer narrowbodies, but maybe that’s just me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
audunj
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:44 am

As for the YUL routes, my guess would be the change to mainline equipment has something to do with Norwegian enter the PTP and FDF market. If memory serves correctly, the change goes into effect more or less the same day as Norwegian starts its flights.
 
cf105arrow
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:53 am

alan3 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Rouge is a huge success at Air Canada. Period.


Some might find "huge success" a curious term given the closure of many Rouge bases and removal of many Rouge routes. I'm not saying it's not, becuase I have no inside knowledge, I just find it curious.

If the Rouge model of business was such a success, wouldn't they expand the fleet, such as adding older A320's to Rouge or even leasing additional older planes in order to keep flying Rouge on routes like PHX, PSP, LAS and Mexico?

Was putting Rouge to Japan ever a really good idea?


The first 3 A320 will join RV in 2019. There is talk of new flight attendants applicants being interviewed in September.
 
Eirules
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:55 am

What will happen to the YVR-DUB route for next summer? It’s currently bookable on a Rouge 767. It’s the only Rouge route at DUB, both YYZ & YUL are now mainline. Will the aircraft swap somewhere?
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eicvd
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:14 am

The AC YYZ-DUB route is so unreliable it may as well be Rouge operating it! Then again the Rouge YVR flights have had some problems too, only the YUL MAX flight seems to operate fairly reliably.
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chonetsao
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:32 am

qf2220 wrote:
However Qantas/Jetstar has worked very well - so your blanket dismissal is perhaps a conclusion too far.

QF learned from its Australian Airlines experience what not to do and didn't do it with JQ. JQ has new fleet, and a dedicated role (cost focussed leisure (incl VFR)). Id suggest that all the other failures didnt have their strategic direction for the 'second' airline correct. Indeed considering it a second airline is perhaps the fault. JQ and QF stand side by side in the QF strategic structure.


QF/Jetstar only works in AU/NZ market as there is no real competition now. Yes there are Virgin and Air New Zealand but the market is not crowded. However, you may notice the long haul expansion for Jetstar is somewhat halted, and domestic routes are no longer in high expansion mode.

Also if you look at Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific, where the competition is fierce, both airlines are somewhat struggling. When was last time Jetstar Asia announced a new route and sustained? Then look at Jetstar Japan, JAL is moving away from this very slowly by planning a new LCC in coming years.

JQ was a success when it was launched. The future? I think it is suffering the ceiling syndrome. Organic growth period is long gone. QF is using JQ to defend its market position and it can export this brand to other countries but now no new places to be found. Air Canada so far could not export Rouge brand. I am pessimistic about the future of JQ but I think it will sustain the current form. but success? Who knows until Jetstar Asia or Jetstar Pacific bite the dust.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.


1) All of the products you listed are in the United States. Your assertions may be more appropriate to the market you're familiar with. 2) Rouge has been around for five years and expanded quite dramatically since launch. Jetstar have been around even longer. They're outlasted nearly every one of the U.S. products you've listed.
 
redroo
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:59 am

chonetsao wrote:
qf2220 wrote:
However Qantas/Jetstar has worked very well - so your blanket dismissal is perhaps a conclusion too far.

QF learned from its Australian Airlines experience what not to do and didn't do it with JQ. JQ has new fleet, and a dedicated role (cost focussed leisure (incl VFR)). Id suggest that all the other failures didnt have their strategic direction for the 'second' airline correct. Indeed considering it a second airline is perhaps the fault. JQ and QF stand side by side in the QF strategic structure.


QF/Jetstar only works in AU/NZ market as there is no real competition now. Yes there are Virgin and Air New Zealand but the market is not crowded. However, you may notice the long haul expansion for Jetstar is somewhat halted, and domestic routes are no longer in high expansion mode.

Also if you look at Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific, where the competition is fierce, both airlines are somewhat struggling. When was last time Jetstar Asia announced a new route and sustained? Then look at Jetstar Japan, JAL is moving away from this very slowly by planning a new LCC in coming years.

JQ was a success when it was launched. The future? I think it is suffering the ceiling syndrome. Organic growth period is long gone. QF is using JQ to defend its market position and it can export this brand to other countries but now no new places to be found. Air Canada so far could not export Rouge brand. I am pessimistic about the future of JQ but I think it will sustain the current form. but success? Who knows until Jetstar Asia or Jetstar Pacific bite the dust.


Jetstar is going no where. It is a very profitable part of the overall qantas group.

As for growth opportunities? There are very limited opportunities within Australia that can be flown profitably with an a320 that aren’t already flown. All of the tourist spots are covered and there are regular flights between the capitals. The domestic timetables across all Aussie airlines rarely change. It’s not like there is much demand for a flight from Sydney to Geraldton.

International is not that different. Jetstar targets a completely different market from QF and that’s basically “bucket and spade”. They’re flying most of the flights that Aussies want to go on (Bali, HNL, Japan). Where else would they go?

They’ve carved out quite a niche for themselves in the Japanese market - the number of flights they have inbound to Australia is quite surprising. It’s more than QF.

The next wave of expansion will come when a narrow body aircraft can capably do sydney and Melbourne to the tourist spots in Asia - namely Bali, Phuket, Vietnam etc. Then we will see some announcements.

Anyway, this is a thread about Rouge. A two brand strategy can work - but the trick seems to be to keep it seperate and know what it’s for.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:04 am

drgmobile wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.


1) All of the products you listed are in the United States. Your assertions may be more appropriate to the market you're familiar with. 2) Rouge has been around for five years and expanded quite dramatically since launch. Jetstar have been around even longer. They're outlasted nearly every one of the U.S. products you've listed.


One word for you: TANGO.
 
baje427
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:49 am

I thought all Caribbean routes were going over to RV.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:16 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
One word for you: TANGO.

Tango still exists. In fact almost every North American carrier is "Tango". Tango was the first North American carrier to offer an a la carte pricing system, where the passenger only puchased what he needed. Also allowed for the first time, were two different economy fare levels on the same PNR.

I'd say it was a success. It was the "old" system that didn't survive!

baje427 wrote:
I thought all Caribbean routes were going over to RV.


Mainline does some Caribbean SJU, PVS, ANU, AUA and longer Mexico flights, HUX, ZIH from YYZ and more out of YUL. This is as I stated above, there is not enough Rouge fins to cover the flying. AC tries not to "confuse" the market, so unless the destination can be totally "Rouged" then it stays at mainline.
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raylee67
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:49 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.

The verdict is mixed on this. The model works very well for QANTAS/JetStar, SQ/Scoot, Korean/Jin Air, Asiana/Air Busan, ANA/Peach/Vanilla. However, for these airlines, a lot of time the "LCC within the airline" is often operating the same routes alongside the mainline carriers, and the mainline carriers typically maintain full service (i.e. free check-in luggage, free meals, etc.) so there is a clear differentiation. And there is a real choice for the customers. Only on really leisure dominated routes, where the "LCC within the airline" fully takes over (e.g. Singapore-Palembang, Busan-Hong Kong, Okinawa-Bangkok, etc.). The labor situation is different too.

For Rouge and TED, a large part of their fleet is also A319/A320, not the older planes.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
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CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Dogman
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:29 pm

longhauler wrote:
questions wrote:
What IS the Rouge business model? How is it positioned with Air Canada so as not to cannibalize Air Canada revenue?

In my opinion, two functions ....

AC could not charge more than Sunwing ... so compare margins with their 189 seat 737 to AC's 120 seat A319. Enter Rouge.



Isn't that the truth. We flew YYZ-CUN on a Rouge A321 on August 11th. I wasn't that uncomfortable since my last (and only) flight with Sunwing. It felt great to fly back on Air Canada's A319.
 
alan3
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:47 pm

longhauler wrote:
AC tries not to "confuse" the market, so unless the destination can be totally "Rouged" then it stays at mainline.


I think these changes have very much "confused the market".

    Mexican resorts: You're on Rouge if you're flying YYZ-PVR, but mainline if you're flying YYZ-ZIH or YYZ-HUX

    Want to go to Mexico City? Well, you're on Rouge from Toronto but mainline from Vancouver

    Caribbean: POP, PUJ AND MBJ get Rouge. Flying to PLS, SXM or GCM? You're on mainline.

    Want a Saint Lucia holiday? Rouge from Toronto, mainline from Montreal.

`Confusing the market`` is already a factor in AC pulling out of LGW.

Many travelers do want to actively avoid Rouge, which is made difficult by this random variation of what is Rouge and what is not.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:10 pm

alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model?

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


Is there really a net reduction in Rouge flying (and I mean hours, not routes) or just a redistribution?
 
Balloonchaser
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:29 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:16 pm

CYYZ-TNCM is going from a Rouge B763 to a AC B737 MAX.. Should I be upset that SXM lost another big aircraft (B763)... Or should I be glad that SXM is being served with more efficient and newer aircraft?
 
jmt18325
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model?

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


Is there really a net reduction in Rouge flying (and I mean hours, not routes) or just a redistribution?


Well, Rouge is at their aircraft cap, and is growing as fast as is allowed. They've added 3 narrow body aircraft and their last allowable widebody just this year. I'd say there's a net increase in Rouge flying.
 
LH658
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:21 pm

just looking at the seat pitch i would personally want to avoid AC rouge.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 807
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Rouge provides great flexibility. It’s done a wonderful job at opening a route and creating demand for a more premium product. Look at Dublin and Warsaw. You have 282 seats in which a low yield route can now work. Hard to do with lie flat seats whos cabin takes up 1/3 of the footprint of the aircraft. And people pay $100 for it. Until you drive up demand.

Rouge is succeeding greatly. Management wants a whole lot more.

Don’t think rouge is performing poorly until you see aircraft numbers that come off the maximum allowable cap. It’s been a home run in every respect for the company. The company. Im not talking seat pitch here.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
fraT
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:53 pm

LH658 wrote:
just looking at the seat pitch i would personally want to avoid AC rouge.


and take Lufti's 320 instead with 30 inches as well (as on ACR's 767)?
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6276
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 am

alan3 wrote:
Mexican resorts: You're on Rouge if you're flying YYZ-PVR, but mainline if you're flying YYZ-ZIH or YYZ-HUX
Want to go to Mexico City? Well, you're on Rouge from Toronto but mainline from Vancouver
Caribbean: POP, PUJ AND MBJ get Rouge. Flying to PLS, SXM or GCM? You're on mainline.
Want a Saint Lucia holiday? Rouge from Toronto, mainline from Montreal. [/list]
`Confusing the market`` is already a factor in AC pulling out of LGW.

Many travelers do want to actively avoid Rouge, which is made difficult by this random variation of what is Rouge and what is not.

I think you are confused on "confusing the market".

It refers to both Rouge and mainline flying the same route at the same time. So if you took the 0900 flight it would be Rouge, but the 1200 flight it is mainline. Air Canada is trying to avoid the circumstance where on the same trip on the same route you fly both Rouge and mainline. The routes you mention are unlikely to be flown by the same passenger on the same trip.

It is very unlikely a passenger would be flying YYZ-UVF then UVF-YUL on the same itinerary. Same thing with YVR-MEX, then MEX-YYZ.

So flying to HUX in the spring it is mainline, but four months later your PVR trip is on Rouge. It is no different from flying to NRT on a 767 then the next time on a 777 ... a different on board experience. And noted beforehand as a different on board experience.

I am not so sure pulling out of LGW was as much "confusing the market" as it was being able to garner a greater yield on a different route. Let's face it, LGW fares were very low and with limited Rouge widebody aircraft at disposal, Air Canada can make more money flying it somewhere else.

And yes, everyone says they are "actively avoiding Rouge". That may well be. But, there is a large segment of the travelling public that chooses an airline/flight by price alone. That is why Sunwing and Transat (for example) are still in existence. That passenger was unwilling to pay even a little more for a larger seat or greater legroom. Rouge is in existence for that exact reason. Air Canada found in the past, that using (for example) a 120 seat mainline A319 to compete with a 189 seat Sunwing 737 on a low yield route, was a waste of time. A choice had to be made to either leave the market, or compete on the market's terms.

I understand the average person on this site is against the concept of Rouge. That is because we are informed and we would pay a little more for a better on board experience. But, we are very few and far between and this is the reality of the leisure market.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:15 am

fraT wrote:
LH658 wrote:
just looking at the seat pitch i would personally want to avoid AC rouge.


and take Lufti's 320 instead with 30 inches as well (as on ACR's 767)?


Luckily though routes within Europe are short distances.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3142
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:07 am

Eso91 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model? Did I miss something? I wasn't able to find a back up of why.

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


I know that they're sending the 737 MAXs to OGG from YVR in October. I was talking to an FA of my flight frm Edmonton to Vancouver to make the connection to Kahului, and he said that's what was planned. I would assume that the 737s are much better from a passenger perspective than the Rouge 767s. My flight was easily the worst and most uncomfortable I've ever had.


Really the narrower seats at the same pitch will be better than the wider seats on the 767. I'll take 18" x 30" seat on the 767 over 17" x 30" seat on the 737 any day. 1" can make a difference at that tight a seat pitch. And I'm not large.
 
Jamie514
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:13 am

LH658 wrote:
fraT wrote:
LH658 wrote:
just looking at the seat pitch i would personally want to avoid AC rouge.


and take Lufti's 320 instead with 30 inches as well (as on ACR's 767)?


Luckily though routes within Europe are short distances.


Theres plenty of operations based in Europe with sardine can 30” pitch A330/340 and other types flying longhaul too. Eurowings for one.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2139
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:35 am

longhauler wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
One word for you: TANGO.

Tango still exists. In fact almost every North American carrier is "Tango". Tango was the first North American carrier to offer an a la carte pricing system, where the passenger only puchased what he needed. Also allowed for the first time, were two different economy fare levels on the same PNR.

I'd say it was a success. It was the "old" system that didn't survive!

baje427 wrote:
I thought all Caribbean routes were going over to RV.


Mainline does some Caribbean SJU, PVS, ANU, AUA and longer Mexico flights, HUX, ZIH from YYZ and more out of YUL. This is as I stated above, there is not enough Rouge fins to cover the flying. AC tries not to "confuse" the market, so unless the destination can be totally "Rouged" then it stays at mainline.


What I find interesting is how the YYZ and YUL routes to a leisure destination like MCO are 100% Rouge, whereas the other MCO routes, like YOW, are still 100% on Mainline.
 
alan3
Topic Author
Posts: 313
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:36 am

sixtyseven wrote:
Rouge provides great flexibility. It’s done a wonderful job at opening a route and creating demand for a more premium product. Look at Dublin and Warsaw. You have 282 seats in which a low yield route can now work. Hard to do with lie flat seats whos cabin takes up 1/3 of the footprint of the aircraft. And people pay $100 for it. Until you drive up demand.

Rouge is succeeding greatly. Management wants a whole lot more.

Don’t think rouge is performing poorly until you see aircraft numbers that come off the maximum allowable cap. It’s been a home run in every respect for the company. The company. Im not talking seat pitch here.


Not disputing that there is a market for long haul low cost. Rouge. Norwegian. Level. Joon. Jetstar. Scoot. etc., and that it has worked well for them.

For some people it's only about cost and nothing more and that's fine. But some people have other considerations and dont enjoy flying on such airlines, and the point of the thread is that IMO the waters have become very muddied on what routes are Rouge and what routes aren't (for those who wish to avoid it), and AC's strategy is for the first time, no longer clear.
 
alan3
Topic Author
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:13 am

longhauler wrote:
I think you are confused on "confusing the market".

It refers to both Rouge and mainline flying the same route at the same time. So if you took the 0900 flight it would be Rouge, but the 1200 flight it is mainline. Air Canada is trying to avoid the circumstance where on the same trip on the same route you fly both Rouge and mainline. The routes you mention are unlikely to be flown by the same passenger on the same trip.

It is very unlikely a passenger would be flying YYZ-UVF then UVF-YUL on the same itinerary. Same thing with YVR-MEX, then MEX-YYZ.

So flying to HUX in the spring it is mainline, but four months later your PVR trip is on Rouge. It is no different from flying to NRT on a 767 then the next time on a 777 ... a different on board experience. And noted beforehand as a different on board experience.

I am not so sure pulling out of LGW was as much "confusing the market" as it was being able to garner a greater yield on a different route. Let's face it, LGW fares were very low and with limited Rouge widebody aircraft at disposal, Air Canada can make more money flying it somewhere else.

And yes, everyone says they are "actively avoiding Rouge". That may well be. But, there is a large segment of the travelling public that chooses an airline/flight by price alone. That is why Sunwing and Transat (for example) are still in existence. That passenger was unwilling to pay even a little more for a larger seat or greater legroom. Rouge is in existence for that exact reason. Air Canada found in the past, that using (for example) a 120 seat mainline A319 to compete with a 189 seat Sunwing 737 on a low yield route, was a waste of time. A choice had to be made to either leave the market, or compete on the market's terms.

I understand the average person on this site is against the concept of Rouge. That is because we are informed and we would pay a little more for a better on board experience. But, we are very few and far between and this is the reality of the leisure market.


Clearly you are a defender of Rouge, and that's fine. I'm not trashing it. Clearly, many people care only about price. Other people don't enjoy flying low cost carriers for a variety of reasons (seat pitch, no IFE, no J class, high number of extra fees for meals and baggage, level of service by the F/A's, old aircraft, etc). With careful planning, LCC aren't necessarily that much cheaper all the time anyway. Each to his own.

I realize that the exact same route isn't shared between mainline and Rouge but I am not sold on there being any discernable strategy at the moment for what is a Rouge route and what isnt, and why entire regions of Canada now have no Rouge flights at all.

Let's say you want to get from YWG to MEX. You connect through YVR it's mainline, connect through YYZ it's Rouge. Your YWG-YVR flight gets cancelled and then send you through YYZ instead which would force you to take Rouge against your will. Or, you want to go from YHZ to UVF and fly mainline outbound (via YUL) but have to fly Rouge back (via YYZ).

And I disagree that flying Rouge vs mainline is no different than flying a mainine 767 vs 777 vs 787. The entire LCC business model is different (seat pitch, aircraft age and comfort, IFE, fees for meals, fees for baggage, booking policies for cancellations and refunds, etc).

Anyway....long story short, I guess if someone paid me money to explain AC's strategy on this I still couldn't do it!
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1133
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Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:21 am

If you're buying an Air Canada ticket, on the AC site, it's very plainly shown whether a flight is Rouge, Express, or mainline. If you are the kind of person who cares about that sort of thing, then you will avoid it. The instances of people's flights being "Rouged" after they've purchased tickets are pretty rare. So, I don't really see where the waters are muddied.

In many cases, Rouge allows AC to offer flights which they might otherwise not offer at all. For example, when I go on vacation, I definitely fall into the category of your standard leisure flyer. Mostly, I just want to get there as easily as possible, and for a reasonable price. I might complain about certain aspects, like the indifferent young FA's that seem to be trying their best not to engage with anyone. But hey… if I can get a more direct routing, e.g. avoiding transferring through a European or US hub, then I'm happy. I don't think you'd see YUL-ATH on mainline, ever. There just wouldn't be the premium traffic on such a route. Rouge has its time and place.
 
fraT
Posts: 1095
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:19 am

LH658 wrote:
fraT wrote:
LH658 wrote:
just looking at the seat pitch i would personally want to avoid AC rouge.


and take Lufti's 320 instead with 30 inches as well (as on ACR's 767)?


Luckily though routes within Europe are short distances.


Like FRA-GYD/TLV/CAI ?
 
qfatwa
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 1999 5:39 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:21 am

qf2220 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The "airline within an airline" model has proven itself, time and again, to NOT work. The industry is littered with failed attempts to force lower pay and more hours on a subset of employees to try and face off with LCC competition by a legacy airline. It does not work. Ted, Shuttle by United, Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Continental LITE...It Just does not work particularly when you're flying a fleet of 20-25 year old 767s that need more maintenance.


However Qantas/Jetstar has worked very well - so your blanket dismissal is perhaps a conclusion too far.

QF learned from its Australian Airlines experience what not to do and didn't do it with JQ. JQ has new fleet, and a dedicated role (cost focussed leisure (incl VFR)). Id suggest that all the other failures didnt have their strategic direction for the 'second' airline correct. Indeed considering it a second airline is perhaps the fault. JQ and QF stand side by side in the QF strategic structure.


Australian was 25% cost effective for QANTAS, and had to use QANTAS services check-in, catering, aircraft servicing, back of house; Geoff Dixon wanted 50% cost reduction so Jetstar went international with NO requirement to use any inhouse QANTAS service, so the whole model changed. Overseas cabin crew were allowed, other caterers, check-in services, anything to drop the cost. Fortunately, the cabin crew [the main employees] were absorbed into QANTAS domestic or could choose to move to Jetstar if they wished to remain international, but to take Jetstar conditions. Australian Airlines reinvigorated much of the inbound Asian tourism market as it was Asian focused in its service approach, and was full service - baggage, food, drinks included in the fare.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5402
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:53 am

jmt18325 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I just noticed that Air Canada mainline is taking over operations of a number of Rouge routes , including almost all Rouge service from YVR. These are low yield holiday destinations.Is there something going on with the Rouge model?

AC mainline is taking over HNL, OGG, KIX as well as KOA, LIH, CUN, PHX and PSP, leaving LAS as the only YVR route being flown by Rouge for W18. Not sure about DUB for S19. .

In YYC, mainline is taking over OGG, PSP, PHX and PVR.

At YUL, mainline AC is taking over FDF, PTP, UVF.

At YYZ, there seems to be less change.

This is according to Wikipedia (with source from Routesonline).


Is there really a net reduction in Rouge flying (and I mean hours, not routes) or just a redistribution?


Well, Rouge is at their aircraft cap, and is growing as fast as is allowed. They've added 3 narrow body aircraft and their last allowable widebody just this year. I'd say there's a net increase in Rouge flying.


So, unless Rouge's utilization is way down the OP's assertion is just wrong. So many worthless threads start with poor command of objective fact.
 
axiom
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Why is Air Canada mainline taking back so many Rouge routes?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:35 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
jmt18325 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Is there really a net reduction in Rouge flying (and I mean hours, not routes) or just a redistribution?


Well, Rouge is at their aircraft cap, and is growing as fast as is allowed. They've added 3 narrow body aircraft and their last allowable widebody just this year. I'd say there's a net increase in Rouge flying.


So, unless Rouge's utilization is way down the OP's assertion is just wrong. So many worthless threads start with poor command of objective fact.


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