LY777
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Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:35 pm

DL recently opened LAX-CDG, and this route seems successful since it will soon become daily.

Could they open a MIA-CDG route?


Regards
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tlecam
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:39 pm

AF (JV partner with DL) already flies a daily 773 and AA flies a daily 777.

Are you asking if Delta will launch a second daily flight within the JV wiht DL? Or a replacement to the AF flight?

Either way, I think flights between CDG and MIA will be operated by AF and AA respectively. AF owns the Paris point of sale; AA owns the Miami point of sale. Delta doesn't offer anything at either end of the market that is differentiating compared to AF and AA.
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evanb
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:49 pm

LY777 wrote:
DL recently opened LAX-CDG, and this route seems successful since it will soon become daily.

Could they open a MIA-CDG route?


Sure they could, but not sure it would be a high priority since AF currently operate a daily B77W as part of their JV with DL. The only reason why DL might be preferred or add capacity to AF on MIA-CDG would be a consensus between AF and DL that DL could offer a better capacity or product or schedule mix. More likley might be AMS since KL don't serve AMS-MIA and would provide a different point of sale and connecting point in the same JV.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:50 pm

tlecam wrote:
AF (JV partner with DL) already flies a daily 773 and AA flies a daily 777.

Are you asking if Delta will launch a second daily flight within the JV wiht DL? Or a replacement to the AF flight?

Either way, I think flights between CDG and MIA will be operated by AF and AA respectively. AF owns the Paris point of sale; AA owns the Miami point of sale. Delta doesn't offer anything at either end of the market that is differentiating compared to AF and AA.


Furthermore, AF upgrades to an A380 during the winter. There's no need for DL to add a flight. Between AF, AA and a myriad of connection options, there's just no real need for it.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:55 pm

Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...
 
Msep003
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:08 pm

DL and AA are the only airline on the winter market unless XL Airways start flying year round to MIA .
 
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enilria
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:11 pm

TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...

It's a metal neutral JV, so I guess anything is possible. Whether a metal swap really means anything is another matter. I think you are seeing DL put their metal in non-dominated markets like TPA and IND, not OA hubs. LAX is a hoped for DL hub so putting their metal there isn't a surprise. So, doubtful, but as it is a JV 6 one half dozen the other.
 
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Aisak
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:09 pm

As others have said above, US-CDG is metal neutral and AF and DL could swap aircraft as they please (if DL had a better suited equipment or AF is short of a/c and needed the planes for other purposes are all good reasons...)

For France point of sale, choosing between AF (national airline) and AA (foreign one) could balance in favor of the home carrier (language, culture, whatever) while DL and AA competing would only be two foreign carriers.

A thing that could happen on these JV, is having an US airport, let's call it XXX, having DL service from ATL, LAX, JFK, DTW, SLC (ussual suspects) and just one AF flight to CDG. Then from a cost point of view, it could be wise to let DL operate CDG-XXX as it is just 1 incremental flight and would release AF from operating to the airport (and realising having to search for gate slots, paying fees, paying a contracted handling....) simplifying the contracts management by having less suppliers in a foreign country. If the flight can share a common departure lounge with DL then it's even better.

Same could be applied for AMS with KLM and LHR with VS.

But this is not the case of AF in MIA, as they have A320 Series based there for flights to the French Caribean
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:05 pm

DL seems more committed to FLL. I wouldn't be surprised if they did FLL-CDG with the 76W. Tug and tow from the international gates to D for the departure.
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EddieDude
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:39 pm

evanb wrote:
More likley might be AMS since KL don't serve AMS-MIA and would provide a different point of sale and connecting point in the same JV.

There is KL 0627 (A332) serving MIA from AMS nonstop.
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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:43 pm

TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


In the early days of the AF JV DL was contemplating
FLL-CDG, but that was the era before B6 and NK drove DL from secondary markets out of south Florida. At the time DL had a lot of non-hub flights from FLL like CMH, BNA, SDF, BHM, TLH, IND and a few others like those. Even had a Santo Domingo run for a bit.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:03 pm

evanb wrote:
More likley might be AMS since KL don't serve AMS-MIA and would provide a different point of sale and connecting point in the same JV.


KLM already flies Miami-Amsterdam.
a.
 
evanb
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:19 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
KLM already flies Miami-Amsterdam.


EddieDude wrote:
There is KL 0627 (A332) serving MIA from AMS nonstop.


It's a seasonal service. I should have been more specific.
 
evank516
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:04 pm

I really don't see the need for it from FLL or MIA.
 
xdlx
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:08 am

MIA-JNB now.... that would do it! Since chances for SAA to do it are NIL
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:13 am

I’d say MCO-CDG is more likely than MIA-CDG. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if MCO-CDG is announced soon.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:26 am

xdlx wrote:
MIA-JNB now.... that would do it! Since chances for SAA to do it are NIL


It certainly wouldn't be flown by DL. If (big if) it ever happens, it'll be on AA.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:47 am

TheLion wrote:
MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub.

In no way is MIA a "fortress" hub for AA or anyone else... while AA often takes advantage of the near limitless demand for service throughout the Americas, they cannot in any significant way manipulate said market in the way a "real" fortress hub would permit: foreign flag would eat their lunch, if they tried it to most markets.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MAH4546
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:53 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TheLion wrote:
MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub.

In no way is MIA a "fortress" hub for AA or anyone else... while AA often takes advantage of the near limitless demand for service throughout the Americas, they cannot in any significant way manipulate said market in the way a "real" fortress hub would permit: foreign flag would eat their lunch, if they tried it to most markets.


Totally. I always laugh when people say an airport with something like 50+ passenger airlines and two to four airlines competing on every major trunk route sans Dallas is a "fortress hub."
a.
 
LY777
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:18 am

TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


DL opening LAX-CDG was unlikely, and yet, they will now fly the route daily...
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axiom
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:23 am

LY777 wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


DL opening LAX-CDG was unlikely, and yet, they will now fly the route daily...


In what world is DL flying a hub to to hub route unlikely?

As has been said, DL already flies MIA-CDG/AMS -- as part of a metal neutral JV. They're already in the market.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:43 am

MAH4546 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TheLion wrote:
MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub.

In no way is MIA a "fortress" hub for AA or anyone else... while AA often takes advantage of the near limitless demand for service throughout the Americas, they cannot in any significant way manipulate said market in the way a "real" fortress hub would permit: foreign flag would eat their lunch, if they tried it to most markets.


Totally. I always laugh when people say an airport with something like 50+ passenger airlines and two to four airlines competing on every major trunk route sans Dallas is a "fortress hub."


"I said "...effectively...", meaning AA are by far the dominant carrier and thus have most of the main O&D and connecting routes sewn up. Reading between the lines, I mean there is little point a same-country competitor trying to serve one-off long haul markets from such a hub.

axiom wrote:
LY777 wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


DL opening LAX-CDG was unlikely, and yet, they will now fly the route daily...


In what world is DL flying a hub to to hub route unlikely?

As has been said, DL already flies MIA-CDG/AMS -- as part of a metal neutral JV. They're already in the market.


As you say axiom, LAX is a DL hub, so this isn't a good example for LY777 to illustrate their point.

enilria wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


It's a metal neutral JV, so I guess anything is possible. Whether a metal swap really means anything is another matter. I think you are seeing DL put their metal in non-dominated markets like TPA and IND, not OA hubs. LAX is a hoped for DL hub so putting their metal there isn't a surprise. So, doubtful, but as it is a JV 6 one half dozen the other.


My point exactly.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


In the early days of the AF JV DL was contemplating
FLL-CDG, but that was the era before B6 and NK drove DL from secondary markets out of south Florida. At the time DL had a lot of non-hub flights from FLL like CMH, BNA, SDF, BHM, TLH, IND and a few others like those. Even had a Santo Domingo run for a bit.


Some interesting and useful info, thanks :)
 
jfk777
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:36 am

The idea of Delta flying a 767 from MIA to CDG is a very 1990's idea. MIA in the last decade tried MIA to LHR, that ended badly. An Air France A380 or 777 is far more appealing then an 25 year DL 767. Very Bad idea.
 
axiom
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:56 am

jfk777 wrote:
The idea of Delta flying a 767 from MIA to CDG is a very 1990's idea. MIA in the last decade tried MIA to LHR, that ended badly. An Air France A380 or 777 is far more appealing then an 25 year DL 767. Very Bad idea.


AF flies this route because the majority of the POS is French, not because DL planes are inferior. On the contrary, a retrofitted 767 is a very competitive ride.

Where do these posters come from?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:15 am

TheLion wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
In no way is MIA a "fortress" hub for AA or anyone else... while AA often takes advantage of the near limitless demand for service throughout the Americas, they cannot in any significant way manipulate said market in the way a "real" fortress hub would permit: foreign flag would eat their lunch, if they tried it to most markets.


Totally. I always laugh when people say an airport with something like 50+ passenger airlines and two to four airlines competing on every major trunk route sans Dallas is a "fortress hub."


"I said "...effectively...", meaning AA are by far the dominant carrier and thus have most of the main O&D and connecting routes sewn up. Reading between the lines, I mean there is little point a same-country competitor trying to serve one-off long haul markets from such a hub.

Which only further demonstrates that you don't know what the colloquialism "fortress hub" generally indicates.
Hint: it's not just being the dominant carrier....
Last edited by LAX772LR on Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:20 am

jfk777 wrote:
An Air France A380 or 777 is far more appealing then an 25 year DL 767.

Says who? Especially if someone's in Y.

While you're at it, please explain how 10-abreast in a 20yr-old AF 777 is "far more appealing" than 7-abreast in a DL 767 with a brand new interior?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:34 am

LY777 wrote:
DL recently opened LAX-CDG, and this route seems successful since it will soon become daily.

Could they open a MIA-CDG route?


Regards

Sure, if DL/AF/KL/AZ and soon VS decide more CDG-MIA capacity is needed and Delta is the best option to provide that capacity then Delta will fly MIA-CDG


is it going to happen?

I'd bet on more AF capacity if more capacity is needed personally. Delta doesn't really that the extra capacity to operate something like MIA-CDG currently.


LY777 wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Sorry to say this OP but this is a rather silly thread.

MIA is effectively an AA fortress hub. For any other US airline to open a route targeting the same segment as AA would be pointless; there are many more fruit to be picked, primarily unserved or underserved secondary cities. This is of course DL's strategy du jour, having launched new CDG/AMS routes from MCO, IND and TPA in the last few years.

Further, DL's partners AF and KL both now serve their respective hubs from MIA, providing multiple connections at the Europe end. And that will cover most if not all of the current demand to/from Miami for SkyTeam loyalists.

If anything, FLL or PBI would be a much better choice of starting point for a legacy to serve Europe from South Florida, with connections at the Europe end. There's also the growing popularity of the region covered by RSW...


DL opening LAX-CDG was unlikely, and yet, they will now fly the route daily...

ugh not at all. It was pretty well known one of the biggest ask for the Delta's corporate market in LAX was Delta metal to Europe. IIRC Delta even said as much when they started LAX-CDG/AMS.
 
Flighty
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:59 am

DL/JV employs a 77W in the CDG-MIA market while AA flies a 772 in the market. To me it looks like DL/JV already has the upper hand in the MIA-CDG market over American.


I think people continue to not really grasp that DL and AFKL share revenue and costs and operate as ONE corporation on Atlantic routes.

Although I am less confident in this statement, I think AA also flies ATL-LHR daily using British Airways aircraft. They have a joint venture too. So the question "When will AA offer an ATL-LHR flight?" would have same answer - it already does, and has since joint venture with BA was formed in 2010.
Last edited by Flighty on Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
carljanderson
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:03 am

jfk777 wrote:
An Air France A380 or 777 is far more appealing then an 25 year DL 767. Very Bad idea.


As someone who has been a passenger on all 3.. I can say nope.

In Y w/ my wife, give me the 767 all day. Followed by the inside section of the A380, then look for another airline, then maybe the AF777.

I'm also much more comfortable with the cabin temps DL keeps the 767 at vs. AF and the 777.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:14 am

Flighty wrote:
DL/JV employs a 77W in the CDG-MIA market while AA merely flies a 772 in the market. To me it looks like DL/JV already has the upper hand in the MIA-CDG market over American.



AA flies their highest density two class plane on MIACDG. What else do you expect them to fly?

MIACDG is in insanely huge local market. AF uses the A380 half the year. I'm still surprised AF is only at once a day when other players like LH, IB, LX and BA have multiple flights.
a.
 
Flighty
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:16 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
DL/JV employs a 77W in the CDG-MIA market while AA merely flies a 772 in the market. To me it looks like DL/JV already has the upper hand in the MIA-CDG market over American.



AA flies their highest density two class plane on MIACDG. What else do you expect them to fly?

MIACDG is in insanely huge local market. AF uses the A380 half the year.


Totally, my main idea was this thread's implication that Delta isn't (or could never be!) in the MIA-CDG business is incorrect. They do, and AA does just fine with its MIA local plus Latin connections that must provide significant feed.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:11 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
DL/JV employs a 77W in the CDG-MIA market while AA merely flies a 772 in the market. To me it looks like DL/JV already has the upper hand in the MIA-CDG market over American.



AA flies their highest density two class plane on MIACDG. What else do you expect them to fly?

MIACDG is in insanely huge local market. AF uses the A380 half the year. I'm still surprised AF is only at once a day when other players like LH, IB, LX and BA have multiple flights.


“Insanely huge” market? Large yes, but not insanely huge...that would be LON-NYC. The hyperbole isn’t needed here.

You Yanks :rotfl:
 
B752OS
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Re: Could DL launch MIA-CDG?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:15 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
DL/JV employs a 77W in the CDG-MIA market while AA merely flies a 772 in the market. To me it looks like DL/JV already has the upper hand in the MIA-CDG market over American.



AA flies their highest density two class plane on MIACDG. What else do you expect them to fly?

MIACDG is in insanely huge local market. AF uses the A380 half the year. I'm still surprised AF is only at once a day when other players like LH, IB, LX and BA have multiple flights.


LX for example, goes double daily on a seasonal basis. When AF increases to an A380, they're actually adding 6 more seats on CDG-MIA than LX is on ZRH-MIA when they add their seasonal second daily flight.

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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos