believeinflight
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No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:20 pm

They just don't need it. Even some of their 747's were not full PAX aircraft, but combi instead.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:22 pm

This topic again, the search function finds a lot of topics on this?
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293727
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153395
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1342277
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339183


- KLM's market is not premium heavy, look at how the 777-300ER is configured, 34C+374Y/Y+ a A380 in this confiq would be way to hard to fill, it would go towards 500/600Y seats, that's a lot of seats and would drive down ticket prices.
- Too few destinations to make it work, Nairobi, Curacao, JKF, DXB and maybe one or two asian destiantions could fill this seasonally, KLM has said they could perhaps fill four A380's. That's a very expensive subfleet if you can operate a double daily 777-300ER instead of a daily A380.
- A really small fleet of A380's is expensive to operate, sharing with Air France is not a option as they have different classes/demand.
- While Schiphol is full, it's only a imposed limit, talks are starting and it would be easier to add a extra frequency in the future.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:24 pm

Yeah, no. KLM does not need the A380. AMS could sustain it for very few destinations, which would call for a very small fleet of them. Even though some maintenance and handling can be coordinated with AF, maintaining a differently-painted, differently-configured subfleet of KL A380s wouldn't pay off.
So, for the foreseeable future, the B77W is the B744 replacement at KL, not the A380.
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yowza
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:26 pm

Maintaining a tiny specialized (sub-)fleet for the purposes of serving a trio of routes is usually a poor idea especially when yields are not super high on said routes. For the routes you've cited, DXB and JNB at present are scheduled for 772 service in the peak of winter travel. If they merited more capacity they would already be getting the 77W or 744 would they not?

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CrimsonNL
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:28 pm

AMS currently has only 2 suitable A380 gates, not counting remote stands. And that likely will not increase anytime soon because there is no space for it.

Martijn
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Cunard
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 pm

Considering that FlyRow has kindly given us links to previous threads regarding this much discussed topic isn't it time for the Mods to close this particular thread!
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believeinflight
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:32 pm

FlyRow wrote:
This topic again, the search function finds a lot of topics on this?
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293727
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153395
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1342277
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339183


- KLM's market is not premium heavy, look at how the 777-300ER is configured, 34C+374Y/Y+ a A380 in this confiq would be way to hard to fill, it would go towards 500/600Y seats, that's a lot of seats and would drive down ticket prices.
- Too few destinations to make it work, Nairobi, Curacao, JKF, DXB and maybe one or two asian destiantions could fill this seasonally, KLM has said they could perhaps fill four A380's. That's a very expensive subfleet if you can operate a double daily 777-300ER instead of a daily A380.
- A really small fleet of A380's is expensive to operate, sharing with Air France is not a option as they have different classes/demand.
- While Schiphol is full, it's only a imposed limit, talks are starting and it would be easier to add a extra frequency in the future.


These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:36 pm

believeinflight wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
This topic again, the search function finds a lot of topics on this?
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293727
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153395
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1342277
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339183


- KLM's market is not premium heavy, look at how the 777-300ER is configured, 34C+374Y/Y+ a A380 in this confiq would be way to hard to fill, it would go towards 500/600Y seats, that's a lot of seats and would drive down ticket prices.
- Too few destinations to make it work, Nairobi, Curacao, JKF, DXB and maybe one or two asian destiantions could fill this seasonally, KLM has said they could perhaps fill four A380's. That's a very expensive subfleet if you can operate a double daily 777-300ER instead of a daily A380.
- A really small fleet of A380's is expensive to operate, sharing with Air France is not a option as they have different classes/demand.
- While Schiphol is full, it's only a imposed limit, talks are starting and it would be easier to add a extra frequency in the future.


These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005


Indeed, back then it didn't work for KLM, now a lot of other airliners and even current operators of the A380 found out for real that it's to big an aircraft.
One of the thread is from two years ago, I would say say, read that..

KLM is not the airline to have a "prestige aircraft" if they don't really need it.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:37 pm

On top of that, Amsterdam airport only has one gate that can support the A380. Given that Emirates and China Southern already fly their A380s to Amsterdam this gate is occupied most of the time.

Of the mentioned destinations JFK has the same problem as Amsterdam, too few gates that can support the A380. Dubai is making a loss with Emirates eating their lunch and there's too little demand for Johannesburg. They can fill a 777 on that route but an A380 would fly half empty.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:42 pm

Airbus would love an order for 50 A388's.

The last new airline to order was ANA in 2016 for 3. Very few new airlines in last 10 years. Current backlog is mostly EK.

No replacement orders from like SIA indicates that other planes are more profitable for them, unlikely that KLM will order.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:47 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
On top of that, Amsterdam airport only has one gate that can support the A380. Given that Emirates and China Southern already fly their A380s to Amsterdam this gate is occupied most of the time.

Of the mentioned destinations JFK has the same problem as Amsterdam, too few gates that can support the A380. Dubai is making a loss with Emirates eating their lunch and there's too little demand for Johannesburg. They can fill a 777 on that route but an A380 would fly half empty.


Two in fact.: G9 & E17.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:51 pm

believeinflight wrote:
These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005


Well, a total of 87 orders not to EK since 2005 isn't a lot of change.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:04 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
The last new airline to order was ANA in 2016 for 3. Very few new airlines in last 10 years. Current backlog is mostly EK.


And ANA is buying 3 A380s only to win favor from Airbus to sell Skymark to them, instead of a group headed by DL (Airbus being the largest creditor of Skymark during their bankruptcies).

And if KL really wanted A380s, SQ just sold one of theirs (to Hifly), and MH was definitely looking for somebody to buy their A380s awhile back. But nope, KL took a pass, for good reason.
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winginit
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:14 pm

believeinflight wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
This topic again, the search function finds a lot of topics on this?
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293727
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153395
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1342277
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=339183


- KLM's market is not premium heavy, look at how the 777-300ER is configured, 34C+374Y/Y+ a A380 in this confiq would be way to hard to fill, it would go towards 500/600Y seats, that's a lot of seats and would drive down ticket prices.
- Too few destinations to make it work, Nairobi, Curacao, JKF, DXB and maybe one or two asian destiantions could fill this seasonally, KLM has said they could perhaps fill four A380's. That's a very expensive subfleet if you can operate a double daily 777-300ER instead of a daily A380.
- A really small fleet of A380's is expensive to operate, sharing with Air France is not a option as they have different classes/demand.
- While Schiphol is full, it's only a imposed limit, talks are starting and it would be easier to add a extra frequency in the future.


These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005


But this one is only two years old... search is your friend.
 
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3BNBE
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:26 pm

Among the proposed destinations for the A380, there's Nairobi, which I think doesn't have the adequate facilities to accommodate the A380 and some while ago, KLM reduced NBO from 1 daily to only 3 weekly now! Kenya Airways however still operates its 1 daily flight. Maybe it's due to Air France also operating to NBO, which caused a traffic from Europe which previously passed through AMS to now go to Kenya via CDG.
 
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Revelation
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:17 pm

believeinflight wrote:
Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.

believeinflight wrote:
These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005

Yes, a lot has changed in the last decade: LH has cancelled three A380s, AF has cancelled two A380s, BA has ordered zero A380s and has ordered 777-300ERs and A350-1000s and 787-8/9/10s, KLM has ordered 787-8/9s. The trend seems pretty clear to me.
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Momo1435
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:23 pm

I remember reading an interview a couple of years with someone high up at KLM where the A380 was discussed. The answer to why no A380 was the standard it could work for KLM but not year round.

Sharing the A380 would also not be a workable option. Different products, (French) union issues, etc. And at the end of the day, the French peak periods are not that much different then the Dutch peak periods. It would still be an issue that the A380 would only be available for KLM during the periods that are actually the reason why KLM haven't ordered any.

I don't think the gates at AMS would have been an issue, they would have created more A380 ready gates if KLM had ordered the plane.
 
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:34 pm

3BNBE wrote:
KLM reduced NBO from 1 daily to only 3 weekly now! Kenya Airways however still operates its 1 daily flight. Maybe it's due to Air France also operating to NBO, which caused a traffic from Europe which previously passed through AMS to now go to Kenya via CDG.


Sorry, this info is incorrect.

For opertional reasons, KLM has temporarily reduced AMS-NBO to 3x/4x weekly (depending on which week) and arranged for KQ to substitute for the missing KL flights. So KQ is operating 2x daily NBO-AMS-NBO on days KLM does not operate AMS-NBO. Overall AMS-NBO-AMS remains 2x daily.

This situation is only for a short period of several weeks, after which KLM B747s return to operate AMS-NBO daily.

September 2018 and part of October 2018:
- AMS 12:55 - NBO 21:50 KL 744 Mon, Wed, Fri
- AMS 12:55 - NBO 22:15 KQ 788 Tue, Thu, Sat, Sun
- AMS 20:50 - NBO 08:20 KQ 788 Daily
 
SteelChair
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:19 pm

Because they have no interest in flooding markets with seats and depressing yields.
 
global2
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:45 pm

yowza wrote:
Maintaining a tiny specialized (sub-)fleet for the purposes of serving a trio of routes is usually a poor idea especially when yields are not super high on said routes.
YOWza


Which brings to mind ANA's plans to have a fleet of three to fly just one route. But that's a whole other story.
 
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:20 pm

In addition to all the reasons already mentioned, KLM doesn't seem to be a big fan of Airbus. If it wasn't for AF, I don't think they would've ordered the A350 either, and they only ordered 7!

zakuivcustom wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The last new airline to order was ANA in 2016 for 3. Very few new airlines in last 10 years. Current backlog is mostly EK.


And ANA is buying 3 A380s only to win favor from Airbus to sell Skymark to them, instead of a group headed by DL (Airbus being the largest creditor of Skymark during their bankruptcies).


:checkmark: I always thought it was odd for such a major airline to order only 3 A380s. I hope we'll see a top-op order for both ANA A380s & KLM A350s.
 
marcelh
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
believeinflight wrote:
Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.

believeinflight wrote:
These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005

Yes, a lot has changed in the last decade: LH has cancelled three A380s, AF has cancelled two A380s, BA has ordered zero A380s and has ordered 777-300ERs and A350-1000s and 787-8/9/10s, KLM has ordered 787-8/9s. The trend seems pretty clear to me.

Trend is that a lot of potential passengers for LH, BA, AF or KL now take the EK A380.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:09 am

I do not see the A380 in the KLM fleet would be a lot of capacity for them and the A380 works better with premium configurations, of course KLM have high demand destinations like New York, Bangkok, Tokyo, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Delhi , Toronto , Kuala Lumpur, Sao Paulo, Lima, Dubai, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taipei and Singapore where most of its B77W flies in the future can be replaced by the B777X family
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incitatus
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:37 am

KL is a high density carrier. The share of premium traffic in AMS is a lot smaller than in London, Frankfurt or Paris. An A380 for KL would be around 45J 600Y.

The way I see it, of the three big European carriers, three fly the A380.
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deltal1011man
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:54 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The last new airline to order was ANA in 2016 for 3. Very few new airlines in last 10 years. Current backlog is mostly EK.


And ANA is buying 3 A380s only to win favor from Airbus to sell Skymark to them, instead of a group headed by DL (Airbus being the largest creditor of Skymark during their bankruptcies).

And if KL really wanted A380s, SQ just sold one of theirs (to Hifly), and MH was definitely looking for somebody to buy their A380s awhile back. But nope, KL took a pass, for good reason.

Not to say KL should order the 380, they shouldn't and I know Delta would be highly pissed to have even more of the money losers in the JV


your example of used aren't good. If KLM ordered the A380, it would have EA motors. No need to add the Trent 900 when they already support the EA engine via AF/KL E&M. Both the SQ and MH birds are Trent powered. Same for TG who has been shopping the 380 off and on.
 
Beatyair
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:24 am

Please no!
KLM does not need this beached whale. Stick with the A330’s, 787’s and 777’s. I would like to see them get some 787-8’s.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:56 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Yeah, no. KLM does not need the A380. AMS could sustain it for very few destinations, which would call for a very small fleet of them. Even though some maintenance and handling can be coordinated with AF, maintaining a differently-painted, differently-configured subfleet of KL A380s wouldn't pay off.
So, for the foreseeable future, the B77W is the B744 replacement at KL, not the A380.


Unlike BA, LH and AF, KL doesn’t have a big home market. And in order to rely purely on connecting traffic KL is not too great an airline - to me it has always been the airline with the least personality - one you don’t mind but wouldn’t seek out proactively - and I would even avoid them where they fly their 737s instead of A32X.
 
dirk88
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:30 am

How come there is so much demand between Amsterdam and Nairobi?
 
tvh
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:12 am

dirk88 wrote:
How come there is so much demand between Amsterdam and Nairobi?

hub to hub
 
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cougar15
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:43 am

believeinflight wrote:
Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.


No disrespect to you as the OP, but there is also another little issue. Is it right to compare KL to the other 3 carriers listed? I love the Dutch, I love KLM but both home market & fleet size, total pax & destinations offered do not really compare them to the other 3 airlines you have listed ....
Is KLM a ´big 4´ European carrier in it´s current constellation? I don´t want to offend anyone, especially all my Dutch friends so I will reserve judgement on that one........
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69bug
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:46 am

I would imagine that having only two A380 gates works in KLM favour as other carriers (read ME3) may have to fight for favourable slots.

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jumpjets
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:00 am

cougar15 wrote:
believeinflight wrote:
Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.


No disrespect to you as the OP, but there is also another little issue. Is it right to compare KL to the other 3 carriers listed? I love the Dutch, I love KLM but both home market & fleet size, total pax & destinations offered do not really compare them to the other 3 airlines you have listed ....
Is KLM a ´big 4´ European carrier in it´s current constellation? I don´t want to offend anyone, especially all my Dutch friends so I will reserve judgement on that one........


If you look at the flightglobal 2018 World Airline rankings table you see that the 'big 4' Europeans are quite spread out in size - how spread out depends which metric you look at - but taking Number of Passengers flown the pecking order is:
Lufthansa 66.2m
Air France 51.3m
British Airways 45.2m
KLM 32.7m

Looking further afield to Qantas and Singapore, KLM outstrips them both in terms of passenger numbers and RPKs - so if they can [seemingly] operate the A380 successfully I wouldnt write off as an A380 operator KLM based solely on size.

As the old saying goes there are lies, damned lies and statistics - so beware. :smile:
 
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Momo1435
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:00 am

tvh wrote:
dirk88 wrote:
How come there is so much demand between Amsterdam and Nairobi?

hub to hub

Plus cargo, especially flowers, there are a lot of flower farms in Kenya.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:46 am

Ah, another A380 at KLM topic. Let's copy my old post then:

It's a nice train of though, but the easy answer is no.

Let's give some arguments:
- KLM needs a certain amount of aircraft from a certain type to work. I can't remember the number (and this number is probably dependant on the type itself) but it was around 10 or so.
- KLM is not premium-heavy. They would stuff more seats in an A380 than any other carrier. Emirates puts 615 seats in their 2-class variant; KLM would probably reach 650+. That's about 50% then their biggest planes now (the 747 full pax and the new configuration on the 777-300ER). That's a enormous amount of seats to fill and they need to fill them year round.
- AMS does not have the capability to so many A380's; it only has 2 A380-capable gates which are also used at the same time when both Emirates and China Southern are at Schiphol (during Summer when CZ comes to AMS).
- The A380 hasn't that much cargo space to begin with and when you fill the plane with ~650 passengers; the suitcase take a lot of room. KLM does like to carry some cargo with their passenger flights (They have to since their Cargo planes are mostly gone with only 2 777F at Air France and 4 747F's at KLM).
- When they do have lots of passengers on a certain route; they might as well fly 2 planes instead of one. When the need isn't there; they can easily get rid of the extra flight.

Let's just say; the 747-8i in a combi-configuration probably has more chance at KLM than the A380.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1342277#p19065611
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frigatebird
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:31 am

FlyRow wrote:
- While Schiphol is full, it's only a imposed limit, talks are starting and it would be easier to add a extra frequency in the future.


Most of the reasons why KL doesn't operate the A380 has been discussed many times, so I won't rehash these again. The one you mention above is a more recent development. Indeed the limited number of slots at AMS is artificial, the airport can handle many more, but the environmental lobby is strong now in The Netherlands, and it won't be a given the number of slots at AMS will increase.

So KL indeed does need larger aircraft to grow.

Thing is, the need for larger aircraft does not automatically mean an A380 order is imminent. What KL has done is:
Replace F70 with E175;
Replace M11 with 77W
Replace A332/B744combi with 787-9
All these changes have led to more pax per aircraft. And more is planned:
Replace remaining B744 combi with 787-10
Replace 737-700 with 737-800

I wouldn't surprised to see KL ordering E195-E2 to replace older E190s and 737-10s to replace older 737-800s. And convert A359s on order to A35K's.

So KL can easily grow without extra slots and does not need the A380 to do so.

Revelation wrote:
believeinflight wrote:
Out of the 4 big European carriers (AF, BA, LH, KL) only KL does not operate A380s. What are some possible reasons for it? I would think that destinations like JFK, DXB, JNB have the demand sufficient enough to justify A380 service from AMS.

believeinflight wrote:
These threads are over a decade old, and a lot has changed in the aviation landscape since 2004/2005

Yes, a lot has changed in the last decade: LH has cancelled three A380s, AF has cancelled two A380s, BA has ordered zero A380s and has ordered 777-300ERs and A350-1000s and 787-8/9/10s, KLM has ordered 787-8/9s. The trend seems pretty clear to me.


Small nitpick: KLM has ordered the 787-9 and -10, not the 787-8.
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:08 pm

cougar15 wrote:
No disrespect to you as the OP, but there is also another little issue. Is it right to compare KL to the other 3 carriers listed? I love the Dutch, I love KLM but both home market & fleet size, total pax & destinations offered do not really compare them to the other 3 airlines you have listed ....

The 'big 3' operate out of multiple airports. KL just out of AMS. While KL is significantly smaller than the other 3 the size at their main hub airport is very similar. So I would say it might not be right to compare KL to the other 3 carriers listed, but it is right to compare KL at AMS with the other 3 carriers' main hubs.
 
ewt340
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:33 pm

I mean, it's clear that they don't need it. And the fact that they could fitted their B777-300ER with identical configurations as their B747-400 means that they could opted for smaller aircraft and crammed in more seats into the cabin.

Heck, they already planning on using A350-900 and B787-10 to replace their old B747-400.
 
Shumayal
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:37 am

I've flown KLM multiple times DXB-AMS and flights have always been jam packed with not a single seat free.

Like others said, if they don't need the extra seats from the A380 then they definitely don't need those from the 747.

And also it doesn't make sense why the Dutch airline wouldn't prefer the European Airbus products. I would have liked to think that being in the EU, it would be an incentive in the airline to buy more European rather American.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 369
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:37 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Yeah, no. KLM does not need the A380. AMS could sustain it for very few destinations, which would call for a very small fleet of them. Even though some maintenance and handling can be coordinated with AF, maintaining a differently-painted, differently-configured subfleet of KL A380s wouldn't pay off.
So, for the foreseeable future, the B77W is the B744 replacement at KL, not the A380.


Unlike BA, LH and AF, KL doesn’t have a big home market. And in order to rely purely on connecting traffic KL is not too great an airline - to me it has always been the airline with the least personality - one you don’t mind but wouldn’t seek out proactively - and I would even avoid them where they fly their 737s instead of A32X.
Where exactly do KLM fly A32X aircraft? Have I missed them ordering some?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 am

There was the linkup KLM-NW for like forever, can't remember if they divorced before or at the altar when they merged with Delta. NW was always "we can make the MD's last a few more years". They were not usually early adopters, it was shocking when NW did order the 787 (Later DL went another direction).

KL in hindsight is happy they didn't. If they still do there are the 3 at AF coming off lease.
 
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Veigar
Posts: 459
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 am

Bhoy wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Yeah, no. KLM does not need the A380. AMS could sustain it for very few destinations, which would call for a very small fleet of them. Even though some maintenance and handling can be coordinated with AF, maintaining a differently-painted, differently-configured subfleet of KL A380s wouldn't pay off.
So, for the foreseeable future, the B77W is the B744 replacement at KL, not the A380.


Unlike BA, LH and AF, KL doesn’t have a big home market. And in order to rely purely on connecting traffic KL is not too great an airline - to me it has always been the airline with the least personality - one you don’t mind but wouldn’t seek out proactively - and I would even avoid them where they fly their 737s instead of A32X.
Where exactly do KLM fly A32X aircraft? Have I missed them ordering some?


These A320s are actually phantom spirits only the Dutch would know about.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:54 am

Shumayal wrote:
I've flown KLM multiple times DXB-AMS and flights have always been jam packed with not a single seat free.

Like others said, if they don't need the extra seats from the A380 then they definitely don't need those from the 747.

And also it doesn't make sense why the Dutch airline wouldn't prefer the European Airbus products. I would have liked to think that being in the EU, it would be an incentive in the airline to buy more European rather American.


Oh man, you'd better not look at the Air France fleet page. They seem to love their 777's...
 
JoergAtADN
Posts: 57
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Oh man, you'd better not look at the Air France fleet page. They seem to love their 777's...


Air France has ordered 21 A350-900's which will replace about a third of their 777's
 
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frigatebird
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:35 am

Shumayal wrote:
And also it doesn't make sense why the Dutch airline wouldn't prefer the European Airbus products. I would have liked to think that being in the EU, it would be an incentive in the airline to buy more European rather American.

Why? KLM is run like a real business, not a state owned airline. So they buy whatever aircraft suits them best.
Furthermore, Airbus does very, very little business with Dutch companies. You'll have to look very hard to find a component made in The Netherlands on an Airbus. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing does more business with Dutch companies.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:12 am

frigatebird wrote:
Shumayal wrote:
And also it doesn't make sense why the Dutch airline wouldn't prefer the European Airbus products. I would have liked to think that being in the EU, it would be an incentive in the airline to buy more European rather American.

Why? KLM is run like a real business, not a state owned airline. So they buy whatever aircraft suits them best.
Furthermore, Airbus does very, very little business with Dutch companies. You'll have to look very hard to find a component made in The Netherlands on an Airbus. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing does more business with Dutch companies.


Utter rubbish, for example the composit used to replace aluminium for the 380 aircraft structures was invented and produced in the Netherlands (glare).

While Fokker is dead, they still produce parts for Boeing, Airbus Lockheed, the lot
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
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frigatebird
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:57 am

FlyRow wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Shumayal wrote:
And also it doesn't make sense why the Dutch airline wouldn't prefer the European Airbus products. I would have liked to think that being in the EU, it would be an incentive in the airline to buy more European rather American.

Why? KLM is run like a real business, not a state owned airline. So they buy whatever aircraft suits them best.
Furthermore, Airbus does very, very little business with Dutch companies. You'll have to look very hard to find a component made in The Netherlands on an Airbus. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing does more business with Dutch companies.


Utter rubbish, for example the composit used to replace aluminium for the 380 aircraft structures was invented and produced in the Netherlands (glare).

While Fokker is dead, they still produce parts for Boeing, Airbus Lockheed, the lot

And how many A380s are being produced these days? Or do you believe Kl should have ordered A380s because of some parts are made of glare :banghead:
And how much glare is used on A350s you think?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:01 am

frigatebird wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Why? KLM is run like a real business, not a state owned airline. So they buy whatever aircraft suits them best.
Furthermore, Airbus does very, very little business with Dutch companies. You'll have to look very hard to find a component made in The Netherlands on an Airbus. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing does more business with Dutch companies.


Utter rubbish, for example the composit used to replace aluminium for the 380 aircraft structures was invented and produced in the Netherlands (glare).

While Fokker is dead, they still produce parts for Boeing, Airbus Lockheed, the lot

And how many A380s are being produced these days? Or do you believe Kl should have ordered A380s because of some parts are made of glare :banghead:
And how much glare is used on A350s you think?


That's a diffrent point, and if you have read the thread you can see me saying multiple times that the A380 is just plain stupid for KLM.
You say you have to look very hard to find aircraft components made in the Netherlands, the A380-Glare part was just a example , saying that I think that's a reason for me that KLM should buy a A380 is plain stupid and saying that no aircraft components are made in the Netherlands is utter rubish as well.

So read the thread, don't sell rubbish and read before bashing me ..
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frigatebird
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:13 am

FlyRow wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
FlyRow wrote:

Utter rubbish, for example the composit used to replace aluminium for the 380 aircraft structures was invented and produced in the Netherlands (glare).

While Fokker is dead, they still produce parts for Boeing, Airbus Lockheed, the lot

And how many A380s are being produced these days? Or do you believe Kl should have ordered A380s because of some parts are made of glare :banghead:
And how much glare is used on A350s you think?


That's a diffrent point, and if you have read the thread you can see me saying multiple times that the A380 is just plain stupid for KLM.
You say you have to look very hard to find aircraft components made in the Netherlands, the A380-Glare part was just a example , saying that I think that's a reason for me that KLM should buy a A380 is plain stupid and saying that no aircraft components are made in the Netherlands is utter rubish as well.

So read the thread, don't sell rubbish and read before bashing me ..

I haven't declared utter rubbish on your post like you did twice, so don't start lecturing me.
You give the A380 as an example of how much glare is being used, but the A380 is as good as dead. Why not answer my question instead: how much glare is used on A350s you think?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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FlyRow
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Re: No A380 for KLM?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:47 am

frigatebird wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
And how many A380s are being produced these days? Or do you believe Kl should have ordered A380s because of some parts are made of glare :banghead:
And how much glare is used on A350s you think?


That's a diffrent point, and if you have read the thread you can see me saying multiple times that the A380 is just plain stupid for KLM.
You say you have to look very hard to find aircraft components made in the Netherlands, the A380-Glare part was just a example , saying that I think that's a reason for me that KLM should buy a A380 is plain stupid and saying that no aircraft components are made in the Netherlands is utter rubish as well.

So read the thread, don't sell rubbish and read before bashing me ..

I haven't declared utter rubbish on your post like you did twice, so don't start lecturing me.
You give the A380 as an example of how much glare is being used, but the A380 is as good as dead. Why not answer my question instead: how much glare is used on A350s you think?


Why is that relevant, that's not what you asked.

I don't care how much dutch parts are in airbus/boeings (although it's nice for our economy).
The only statement I dont agree with is that the Dutch don't make aircraft parts and that it's hard to find any, it isn't.. and saying that it is hard is rubbish. If you don't even know Fokker is still a thing and builds aircraft components I can only scratch my head.

Then you throw a hissy-fit that I think KLM should buy Airbus (a380/350's) because they make some parts...
a) I didn't say that
b) I disagree that KLM should buy A380's (if you want to see why, just look at responses i've made in this and other topics about KLM's a380 quesitons).
c) It's not relevant to answer how much of the aircraft is "dutch", as KLM doesn't look at that, they look at the price/cost balance, not at prestige.

So in short:
a) Dutch don't make aviation parts -> Rubbish
b) I think KLM should buy a A350/A380 becasue of Dutch part -> Rubbish
c) Do i care how much % of these planes is Dutch -> No, not relevant in the discussion

So please, tell me what your problem with my post is, because I don't see it.

KLM won't buy a A380 period, it has zero reasons to buy/lease/lend them.
Last edited by FlyRow on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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