Moosefire
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JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:51 pm

Literally heard on the crew bus from a B6 guy that they have 2-3 E190s that have been grounded for problematic wing spares and will likely be parked as Embraer engineering does not currently have a fix. Haven’t seen this discussed elsewhere... any insights from the JetBlue folks? Even with the 190 sunsetting im sure this is unforcasted lost flying without an immediate replacement available.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:40 pm

B6 took a big write down on their value recently. This is going to hurt a bit more, if true.
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:31 pm

I believe the effected airplanes have been repaired.
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:31 pm

There have been rumors that JetBlue has two E-190 grounded due to wingspan issues for months. The issue is JetBlue uses aircraft intensely, so they have all the fleet leader E-190s (hours and cycles), so they find every issue first.

With the A320, the last A320-100 are just backup aircraft, I'm not aware of any in daily duty. Then the A320-200 early examples, even V2500 powered, lead JetBlue, so other airlines find issues first.

With the A220s, JetBlue will not have any early examples, AirBaltic or Swiss will find the issues.

The E-190 has been maintenance heavy for B6. They won't be missed.

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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:36 pm

The two original problem children are back flying...N216JB and N236JB. Not sure if more have been found and/or fixed.
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:16 pm

How long were N216JB and N236JB down?

Late edit:
What were the hours/cycles?
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
How long were N216JB and N236JB down?

Late edit:
What were the hours/cycles?

For 216 it was in a heavy check in February and had around 33000 hours and 21000 cycles.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:42 am

The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:39 am

B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.

I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.

Spacepope wrote:
For 216 it was in a heavy check in February and had around 33000 hours and 21000 cycles.

That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
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Moosefire
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:08 am

B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.


Great insights.... thanks!
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 am

B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.


Wow, interesting, thanks! Love the technical insight. It must have been an intense yet fascinating bit of work!
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.

I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.

Spacepope wrote:
For 216 it was in a heavy check in February and had around 33000 hours and 21000 cycles.

That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
Lightsaber


You are correct, the aircraft was in for a Basic 6 HMV, so it's 6th HMV which is a pretty darn heavy one that is about a month long! The aircraft (if I recall correctly, I'm on my days off so I can't check) should be a 2006 delivery so a 12 year old frame. Makes me feel old...I remember when it was delivered from Brazil and was a "baby blue" LOL
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:56 pm

B6JFK: Great insights and explanation -- in the best traditions of A.net!
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:27 pm

B6JFKH81 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.

I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.

Spacepope wrote:
For 216 it was in a heavy check in February and had around 33000 hours and 21000 cycles.

That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
Lightsaber


You are correct, the aircraft was in for a Basic 6 HMV, so it's 6th HMV which is a pretty darn heavy one that is about a month long! The aircraft (if I recall correctly, I'm on my days off so I can't check) should be a 2006 delivery so a 12 year old frame. Makes me feel old...I remember when it was delivered from Brazil and was a "baby blue" LOL

Thanks for that! Usually you can tell from the SDRs when an aircraft is in for a heavy check, but in this report it was specifically written "DURING HEAVY MAINTENANCE, A CRACK WAS FOUND IN THE EXTERNAL SKIN ON THE LOWER FUSELAGE. REPAIRED THE SKIN IAW EA 57-0004-18, AND EC E18-043-01.". Kind of a direct tipoff there! I really like the blunt forwardness.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
There have been rumors that JetBlue has two E-190 grounded due to wingspan issues for months. The issue is JetBlue uses aircraft intensely, so they have all the fleet leader E-190s (hours and cycles), so they find every issue first.

With the A320, the last A320-100 are just backup aircraft, I'm not aware of any in daily duty. Then the A320-200 early examples, even V2500 powered, lead JetBlue, so other airlines find issues first.

With the A220s, JetBlue will not have any early examples, AirBaltic or Swiss will find the issues.

The E-190 has been maintenance heavy for B6. They won't be missed.

Lightsaber


To be picky, JetBlue have never operated the A320-100. The only A320-100 operators were BA / Air France and predecessors.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:21 pm

Spacepope wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.


That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
Lightsaber


You are correct, the aircraft was in for a Basic 6 HMV, so it's 6th HMV which is a pretty darn heavy one that is about a month long! The aircraft (if I recall correctly, I'm on my days off so I can't check) should be a 2006 delivery so a 12 year old frame. Makes me feel old...I remember when it was delivered from Brazil and was a "baby blue" LOL

Thanks for that! Usually you can tell from the SDRs when an aircraft is in for a heavy check, but in this report it was specifically written "DURING HEAVY MAINTENANCE, A CRACK WAS FOUND IN THE EXTERNAL SKIN ON THE LOWER FUSELAGE. REPAIRED THE SKIN IAW EA 57-0004-18, AND EC E18-043-01.". Kind of a direct tipoff there! I really like the blunt forwardness.


Hahaha, yeah, our folks that write up the SDRs don't tip toe around the subject. Many of us on-site reps are true NYers at heart...blunt, to the point, with sarcasm if applicable LOL!
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:29 pm

B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.


Interesting read, thanks for posting. In which facility (maintenance) did all this happen?
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:34 pm

YSAPW wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.


Interesting read, thanks for posting. In which facility (maintenance) did all this happen?


AEROMAN at SAL, a very impressive operation there!
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:51 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
There have been rumors that JetBlue has two E-190 grounded due to wingspan issues for months. The issue is JetBlue uses aircraft intensely, so they have all the fleet leader E-190s (hours and cycles), so they find every issue first.

With the A320, the last A320-100 are just backup aircraft, I'm not aware of any in daily duty. Then the A320-200 early examples, even V2500 powered, lead JetBlue, so other airlines find issues first.

With the A220s, JetBlue will not have any early examples, AirBaltic or Swiss will find the issues.

The E-190 has been maintenance heavy for B6. They won't be missed.

Lightsaber


To be picky, JetBlue have never operated the A320-100. The only A320-100 operators were BA / Air France and predecessors.


That was the point. The operators of the -100s and early -200s were the first ones to find about age-related issues in A320s as their early frames aged, and airlines like B6 that operate younger -200s were able to gain from that knowledge in their MX activities as their frames reached similar ages. For the E190, B6 is in that vanguard position, and therefore they are the ones finding problems first and therefore having to come up with solutions.
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:54 pm

B6JFKH81 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
The last of the 3 aircraft was released quite a few weeks ago. Considering this was the first time this issue had been discovered (even after an SB came out to prevent this issue years ago) on any E190 so yes, it took significant time to work it. 2 of the a/c had findings during heavy checks, the 3rd a/c was a line write up that lead to the finding, and the a/c was ferried down to be with the other 2.

It took time for all 3 engineering teams (EMB, B6 & AEROMAN) who were on site to map everything out, come up with drawings for the doublers, triplers and quadruplers, list required fasteners (which were not standard nor easy to find), proper shoring configuration, tooling (some of which had to be manufactured on-site), and perform the work/report back additional problems, etc., it was a long journey. It was an intense fix for all crews involved but since the damage is very similar per aircraft, the engineering for the fix didn't have to change that much so efficiencies have been put into place to reduce down time should it happen again.

From a technical standpoint, as someone who was on-site for those planes, it was quite a fascinating fix to watch and was a great group effort.

I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.

Spacepope wrote:
For 216 it was in a heavy check in February and had around 33000 hours and 21000 cycles.

That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
Lightsaber


You are correct, the aircraft was in for a Basic 6 HMV, so it's 6th HMV which is a pretty darn heavy one that is about a month long! The aircraft (if I recall correctly, I'm on my days off so I can't check) should be a 2006 delivery so a 12 year old frame. Makes me feel old...I remember when it was delivered from Brazil and was a "baby blue" LOL

While still a heavy maintenance, the aircraft is young to have such an issue.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:35 am

lightsaber wrote:
B6JFKH81 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I thank you very much for your summary. It was enlightening.


That seems very early for such issues.

I was looking at this blog post for a reference to the maintenance (site looks to be shutting down, bummer. Some good cost comparisons of airframes.)
http://www.team.aero/files/aviation_dat ... e_jets.pdf

So the plane is maintained on a base cycle of 24,000FH and 20,000 FC. (Whichever comes first, 4 checks, one every 5,000 FC or 6,000FH.) So this was just after the first set of 4 checks... Check 6 on FH I would assume...

According to this PowerPoint, a structure designed for 80,000 FC (and I would assume 96,000FH, keeping the 1.2X multiple).
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... r_RevA.pdf

This was a really 'young find.'
Lightsaber


You are correct, the aircraft was in for a Basic 6 HMV, so it's 6th HMV which is a pretty darn heavy one that is about a month long! The aircraft (if I recall correctly, I'm on my days off so I can't check) should be a 2006 delivery so a 12 year old frame. Makes me feel old...I remember when it was delivered from Brazil and was a "baby blue" LOL

While still a heavy maintenance, the aircraft is young to have such an issue.


Agreed. And this is pre-aging aircraft which start at the 15 year mark so another 2 years from now for the older aircraft in that fleet. Should be interesting to see what comes up on those...
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PPVRA
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:24 am

Anyone knows if this is related to the issues Embraer had with Kawasaki Heavy Industries? Or totally separate?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-208542/
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 pm

This thread is on JetBlue/E-190 wingspar issues. While we encourage discussion, please try to keep the thread on topic.

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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:40 pm

anyone have a pic of the fix? sounds very interesting.

These A220's cant come soon enough. The E190 was revolutionary at B6 but its clearly time to move on and asap
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:09 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Anyone knows if this is related to the issues Embraer had with Kawasaki Heavy Industries? Or totally separate?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-208542/


It could be related indeed.
But these look like they were from after the period that Embraer took over the wing production from Kawasaki.
So actually the early build Kawasaki wings may be the good ones and the Embraer built ones the bad ones.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:52 pm

So who pays for these non-routine repairs?
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:03 pm

At 12 years typically JetBlue will pay for repair and engineering.
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:41 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
So who pays for these non-routine repairs?

Typically there is an escrow account to pay for the heavy check with a small amount budgeted to pay for non-routine events. Now, per my link above, the 8th is the heaviest, so more money will be budgeted for that.

JetBlue and Azul will both be returning E-jets early. So the leasing companies will be stuck with some fraction of the repairs. Everyone with a stake in E-jets will want a better cost and time estimate. Airlines picking up used E-jets will bid with this as known work. It is in Embraer's best interest to find a faster and cheaper way to perform this repair.

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PPVRA
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:52 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Anyone knows if this is related to the issues Embraer had with Kawasaki Heavy Industries? Or totally separate?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-208542/


It could be related indeed.
But these look like they were from after the period that Embraer took over the wing production from Kawasaki.
So actually the early build Kawasaki wings may be the good ones and the Embraer built ones the bad ones.


The article I posted was published in 2006 and the two mentioned aircraft are 2006 deliveries.

One of the registrations I checked was a June 2006 delivery. Embraer says in the article it took metal work from KHI starting in July.
Last edited by PPVRA on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:59 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Anyone knows if this is related to the issues Embraer had with Kawasaki Heavy Industries? Or totally separate?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-208542/


It could be related indeed.
But these look like they were from after the period that Embraer took over the wing production from Kawasaki.
So actually the early build Kawasaki wings may be the good ones and the Embraer built ones the bad ones.


The article I posted was published in 2006 and the two mentioned aircraft are 2006 deliveries.

It would be good news if this was a known subset of serial numbers. Good aviation root cause finds the issue, finds a standard repair, and creates a manufacturing improvement.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:32 am

IADCA wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
There have been rumors that JetBlue has two E-190 grounded due to wingspan issues for months. The issue is JetBlue uses aircraft intensely, so they have all the fleet leader E-190s (hours and cycles), so they find every issue first.

With the A320, the last A320-100 are just backup aircraft, I'm not aware of any in daily duty. Then the A320-200 early examples, even V2500 powered, lead JetBlue, so other airlines find issues first.

With the A220s, JetBlue will not have any early examples, AirBaltic or Swiss will find the issues.

The E-190 has been maintenance heavy for B6. They won't be missed.

Lightsaber


To be picky, JetBlue have never operated the A320-100. The only A320-100 operators were BA / Air France and predecessors.


That was the point. The operators of the -100s and early -200s were the first ones to find about age-related issues in A320s as their early frames aged, and airlines like B6 that operate younger -200s were able to gain from that knowledge in their MX activities as their frames reached similar ages. For the E190, B6 is in that vanguard position, and therefore they are the ones finding problems first and therefore having to come up with solutions.


Makes sense with an extrapolation, wasn't clear though initially. There are no A320-100s as back up aircraft for any airlines, the last of this sub-type were scrapped getting on for ten years ago.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:32 am

PlymSpotter wrote:
IADCA wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:

To be picky, JetBlue have never operated the A320-100. The only A320-100 operators were BA / Air France and predecessors.


That was the point. The operators of the -100s and early -200s were the first ones to find about age-related issues in A320s as their early frames aged, and airlines like B6 that operate younger -200s were able to gain from that knowledge in their MX activities as their frames reached similar ages. For the E190, B6 is in that vanguard position, and therefore they are the ones finding problems first and therefore having to come up with solutions.


Makes sense with an extrapolation, wasn't clear though initially. There are no A320-100s as back up aircraft for any airlines, the last of this sub-type were scrapped getting on for ten years ago.

I accept the correction as I couldn't find any active now, but it wasn't ten years ago. :spin:
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
IADCA wrote:

That was the point. The operators of the -100s and early -200s were the first ones to find about age-related issues in A320s as their early frames aged, and airlines like B6 that operate younger -200s were able to gain from that knowledge in their MX activities as their frames reached similar ages. For the E190, B6 is in that vanguard position, and therefore they are the ones finding problems first and therefore having to come up with solutions.


Makes sense with an extrapolation, wasn't clear though initially. There are no A320-100s as back up aircraft for any airlines, the last of this sub-type were scrapped getting on for ten years ago.

Ugh... think before typing (late edit).

Yea, the 737-100s were retired a long time ago. The -200s are rather long in the tooth. Heck, -300s need to fear becoming beer cans. :spit:

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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:02 am

I just worked N216JB tonight MCO-HPN. She’s in the prime of her life! Everything works. I’ll take her any day!

Cheers,
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:29 am

av8orwalk wrote:
I just worked N216JB tonight MCO-HPN. She’s in the prime of her life! Everything works. I’ll take her any day!

Cheers,
Drew MCO


Thanks for the update Drew, always good to hear we did a good job for y'all on the line operation! I'll see N216JB in early 2020 for her B7HMV then LOL!

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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues

Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:46 am

Should E170/175 early operators be concerned?
 
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
IADCA wrote:

That was the point. The operators of the -100s and early -200s were the first ones to find about age-related issues in A320s as their early frames aged, and airlines like B6 that operate younger -200s were able to gain from that knowledge in their MX activities as their frames reached similar ages. For the E190, B6 is in that vanguard position, and therefore they are the ones finding problems first and therefore having to come up with solutions.


Makes sense with an extrapolation, wasn't clear though initially. There are no A320-100s as back up aircraft for any airlines, the last of this sub-type were scrapped getting on for ten years ago.

I accept the correction as I couldn't find any active now, but it wasn't ten years ago. :spin:


Getting on for it though - the last were finally wfu in May 2010 and scrapped by the end of the year, although most were scrapped in the 2007-2009 timeframe.
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Re: JetBlue E190 wing spar issues (unconfirmed)

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:31 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Should E170/175 early operators be concerned?

The E17X and E19X center plug underwent different fatigue tests.

Now here I want to be clear, I do not know the structural differences. But the fact that the E19X needed a different center plug for testing tells us the structure is enough different that the issue might or might not transfer.

We are also having a discussion that this might be due to Kawasaki heavy industries not keeping their quality up (which implies not building to print). This could be just a bad batch of serial numbers. What I have no feeling on is how large a batch (e.g., is it every E19X through 2006?).

Reading through the following link, that puts 62 examples at risk. It might be more... it might be less. I haven't followed the details of the construction well enough to know:
https://www.airfleets.net/listing/e190-2.htm

I quickly counted 25 examples to JetBlue in that number. Oh boy... But that is the risk of being the launch operator. Double down by being an intense launch operator.

Note: Winderoe has taken the same risk with the E2 and will likely always have the fleet leader.
Indigo is the intense operator of the Pratt NEOs and should soon overtake LH for fleet leader (on cycles and hours) if they haven't already.
AirBaltic is the intense operator of the A220 that has done well. (Swiss flies fewer cycles/hours.) I'm not sure when the cross over happens as there was enough of a head start...

That said, everyone else with the E190 should have a year or so warning of the issue. Early examples went also to Air Canada (huh, per above link, pg 1, the earliest AC examples are stored...) , COPA, AeroMexico, and HOP! (regional division of Air France).

E170/175 have 96% actively flying per airfleets: https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e170.htm
E190/195 have only 92% actively flying per airfleets: https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm

or 4% parked versus 8% parked. That difference is significant. It implies something about the E19X. Note: We would have to break down maintenance, fuel burn, and field performance to fully understand why double the E19x are not flying. Having 3% to 5% of a fleet sitting is OK for an airframe out < 15 years . For example (going by Airfleets.net-Production-summary-(aircraft type), the 737NG has 3% sitting, the A320 has 9% out of service (but is old enough that early examples should have been scrapped, after 15 years another percent per year can be normal, dependent on part pricing from the OEM). So the E17X is within expectations and the E19X isn't... The CFM34-10E doesn't have the great reputation of the CF34-8 (from a maintenance perspective). If someone has real numbers I would appreciate a link as I'm going from office chatter.

Having a different engine changes the dynamics of the wing, so it could be seeing earlier high cycle fatigue. It could have a different structure (I don't know), and we know Kawasaki in this time frame produced wingspars that didn't meet Embraer's quality (but Embraer must own they delivered them).

PlymSpotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:

Makes sense with an extrapolation, wasn't clear though initially. There are no A320-100s as back up aircraft for any airlines, the last of this sub-type were scrapped getting on for ten years ago.

I accept the correction as I couldn't find any active now, but it wasn't ten years ago. :spin:


Getting on for it though - the last were finally wfu in May 2010 and scrapped by the end of the year, although most were scrapped in the 2007-2009 timeframe.

2010 is 8 years ago. ;) OK, I was going from memory and honestly thought they flew a little longer, so I wasn't wrong, but I should admit what I wrote... well minutes after I corrected for a reason! :P You were too quick to quote as I was too quick to type. :P
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