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neomax
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How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:12 pm

People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.
 
berari
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:21 pm

Oh my god has such long time passed that we are asking this question now? I am feeling old.

Main areas of change are around airport security, screenings, blacklists, data sharing between airlines and government.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm

In terms of aircraft, I would posit that the effects of 9/11, which caused a downturn in travel, caused the mass retirement of a lot of early 747s (100, 100B, 200B, -300), tri-jets (DC10, MD11, L101, B721/2) as well as early second-generation twinjets (DC-9, B731, B732, BA11, A30B). Airlines were forced to streamline their operations with smaller equipment. Really helped by this was the Airbus A320 programme. Basically, it marked the end of the era for anything not efficient in terms of aircraft, and the beginning of an era of more longer missions on smaller aircraft.

* BA11 is the BAC One-Eleven, L101 - TriStar
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
deltaflyertoo
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm

I think the events of 9/11 expedited many changes that would have happened anyway but 9/11 had them happen sooner. For example the big 3 were always going to get rid of their 727s but after 9/11 they REALLY moved on this-one could argue as for United we still see the residual effects of their over retirement of the 727s and 737s to this day-(i.e. the over reliance on RJs on mainline routes)...if 9/11 hadn't happened-it prob. would have been more like 2008-2012 that would have happened...(if even then perhaps?).
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:33 pm

Lot's of small and large airline went BK. Airlines operated more flights and with much lower load factors. Outsourced regional jet flying gained more focus.
 
rj777
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:33 pm

Hard to believe it's been 17 years.... guess this partly accelerated the retirement of the DC-10s/MD-11s.
 
seat1a
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:38 pm

It got everyone seated on a plane way before departure time, the door closing early or right on time, and in general, flights leaving the gate timely or early. Just my observations.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:38 pm

Industry consolidation thru the Chapter 11 process. It might have happened anyway, but over a longer time frame. The entire industry is on a much stronger footing than in 2001 due to the consolidation.

GF
 
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Embajador3
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:51 pm

Where do I start??? As a FA myself, I can honestly tell you that things went for the worst. This event marked the begining of a lot of changes of the passenger experience at the airport and onboard. Airlines began to charge for onboard catering, then went on to charging you for the second checked it suitcase, then began adding more seats to the planes, reduced the no. of FAs to the minumum and working conditions went for worse, reduced ammenities (such as refreshing towels, complimentary soap bars in toilets, etc). For us, it also meant having to count the amount of cutlery... . As you can see, it changed pretty much everything.
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:56 pm

It definitely hasten the route to no frills flying. In some ways I think it’s sad. Flying used to be an “event” for all but now for at least the Y pax it’s public transport.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:59 pm

Cockpit doors locked isolating pilots from passengers and cabin crew. I remember being able to watch landings from aisle seats through the open cockpit door, pilots were totally accessible and kids making regular trips to sit in the cockpit in flight.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:08 am

Demand for short haul routes has decline dramatically since then. Causation or correlation. I don’t know.
 
airbazar
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:51 am

Embajador3 wrote:
Where do I start??? As a FA myself, I can honestly tell you that things went for the worst. This event marked the begining of a lot of changes of the passenger experience at the airport and onboard. Airlines began to charge for onboard catering, then went on to charging you for the second checked it suitcase, then began adding more seats to the planes, reduced the no. of FAs to the minumum and working conditions went for worse, reduced ammenities (such as refreshing towels, complimentary soap bars in toilets, etc). For us, it also meant having to count the amount of cutlery... . As you can see, it changed pretty much everything.

None of this was the result of 9/11.
IMO aviation did't change much. Security as a whole changed but not just in aviation, and mainly in the U.S. as the rest of the world already had most of the security measures that were implemented in the U.S. post 9/11. For example, the idea that anyone could just walk up to a gate with little or no screening in some cases was mostly a U.S. thing. Lack of proof of identification when flying also only existed in the U.S. Flying domestically in those days was really just like taking a bus. Many times at a major U.S. airport I was able to walk right onto the tarmac and among the airplanes as they were being serviced and was never questioned or stopped. That would have been unthinkable in most of the rest of the world.
 
deltaflyertoo
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:01 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
Cockpit doors locked isolating pilots from passengers and cabin crew. I remember being able to watch landings from aisle seats through the open cockpit door, pilots were totally accessible and kids making regular trips to sit in the cockpit in flight.


No -visits to the cockpit during flight were in place well before 9/11. I should know! I was a aviation dork kid in the 80s and every flight we went on (USAir, Continental, United and Delta) my father would ask and always be denied for "security reasons" but yeah-an occasional door left open on taxi, takeoff or landing would be a great treat for those on the aisle.
 
deltatim
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:46 am

I was dozing off on a flight to DCA recently and I noticed that the F/As had blocked the aisle with the drink cart.... lengthwise. Then the captain stepped out of the forward lavatory and went back into the cockpit. Later I noticed the same thing on another flight when the first officer exited the cockpit and got some coffee... Then it dawned on me - the F/As were "blocking" entry to the galley/doorway/cockpit. Not foolproof by any means, but that's something you never saw before 9/11.
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:09 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Demand for short haul routes has decline dramatically since then. Causation or correlation. I don’t know.


I perceive that as true but I haven't seen the change in fraction of passengers on sub 300-mile flights. Add in the time for security (and the fees for same day changes if your plans change), and baggage fees, and it's really compelling just to drive a lot of former short routes. Fly DTW-BUF? No thanks.
 
N867DA
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:32 am

deltaflyertoo wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Cockpit doors locked isolating pilots from passengers and cabin crew. I remember being able to watch landings from aisle seats through the open cockpit door, pilots were totally accessible and kids making regular trips to sit in the cockpit in flight.


No -visits to the cockpit during flight were in place well before 9/11. I should know! I was a aviation dork kid in the 80s and every flight we went on (USAir, Continental, United and Delta) my father would ask and always be denied for "security reasons" but yeah-an occasional door left open on taxi, takeoff or landing would be a great treat for those on the aisle.


I distinctly remember flight attendants on a transatlantic KLM flight asking the few children not asleep if they'd like to visit the flight deck en route to AMS. That'll never happen again.

I also remember walking by the World Business Class cabin wondering what it must be like to have your own TV screen on a long flight. Some things have gotten better!
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Super80Fan
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:42 am

No more cockpit visits is an obvious one, made my first and last visit to the cockpit mid-flight 4 months before 9/11. Then you had the airlines making less and less money due to lower demand so out went the older planes like the 737-200's, 747 Classics, L1011's, and DC10/MD11's along with whole airlines.

The most obvious though was the introdcution of the Toilet Safety Administration, but 'nuff said.
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ua900
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:54 am

neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


My personal favorite was hanging out with the pilots on the flight deck of a MD-82 with a total of 3 pax and 5 F/As. Enough room for all 3 of us to hang out up there for the whole 2.5 hour flight and we told the F/As not to worry about serving us. Just walked up to the galley and grabbed a can of something when we wanted. Worked well for everyone lol.

It goes beyond airport security:

1. A whole bunch of SSI items for the F/As to consider
2. Proper training for spotting and dealing with potential security issues
3. FFDOs
4. 3-1-1
5. Consistency regarding no more flight deck visits
6. Cockpit barriers (those thin metal wires that many aircraft have now in lieu of a service cart blocking the way)
7. A whole lot more crew awareness
8. No more actual hijackings since now everyone assumes you're just trying to bring down the plane
9. In line with point 8, volunteers everywhere. Prior to 9/11 a number of people wouldn't have stuck out their necks if a F/A gets attacked
10. TSA pre-check, no fly lists, and a whole bunch of other things running in the background
11. People who buy tickets at the airport, one way, and/or with cash now raise flags
12. No more meet and greet at the gate unless the pax requests it
13. No more casual entering of a terminal for benign things like plane watching with kids
14. No more casual hanging out at the perimeter to watch planes at smaller and mid sized airfields with regularly scheduled commercial service

Security aside there are the following points:

1. No more 757s flying around with 40 people on a transcon, no more 767s with 60 people either
2. Industry consolidation would have likely happened anyway as alliances became more important after *A was founded in 1997, but 9/11 greatly increased the pressure to align as a precursor to the subsequent US 3 mergers
3. BoB took off, as did any other type of ancillary revenue
4. Status / mileage programs became a science and a major retention tool
5. Economy Plus / Premium economy / Flat bed service was greatly encouraged in the hunt for extra revenue
6. Increasing lack of decorum and grace in service standards (careless jacket collection / return, prepacked products in first and business class, outright replacement of first with business and replacement of business with premium economy, cheaper clubs, no more ticket jackets, toilet paper quality ticket stock, expectation that everyone uses self-service check in machines)
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Michiganatc
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:09 am

I worked for US Aiways at PIT in 2001-2003 during college. PIT was a thriving airport pre-9/11 with crowded concourses and busy shops throughout the Terminal. 9/11 happened while I was in class. The next day I went back to work and it was an utter ghost town. 18 months later after I left PIT for good it was a visibly different airport. We use to flourish with charters from Vanguard Airlines (MD-80/737-200), Pace (757/737-200), Laker Air (727), Sunworld (727), ATA L1011/B757 and both ATA and TWA still operated normal daily scheduled routes (B738/B712 respectively.

What changed? Everything...and PIT later lost US Airways as a hub. PIT has made a decent comeback since 9/11, it just took a decade and a great economy to do it.
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:10 am

Hard to believe how much time has passed now and our view of what changed has also changed as well. How 9/11 changed aviation in my opinion can be summed up under the following points:

1) Significantly increased security requirements across the board.
- Some were necessary and needed improvements
- Some are window dressing and more or less security theater
- Some real and some perceived hassles related by security requirements

2) Complete change in mindset in the minds of many employees and crew that passengers can be now considered a threat.
- This has subsided a bit as each year goes by but in the immediate aftermath everyone was jolted, everyone was more edging, and there was a lot more suspicion by everyone
- Some crews either due to nerves, fear, or overzealous, there was this feeling that passengers were now perceived as a threat and risk for anything slightly out of the norm

3) Compound effect with a slowing economy, leading to significantly reduced short-term demand for air travel, that accelerated the need for restructuring, bankruptcies, and changes in business models.
- Legacies were still burdened with legacy business models, contracts, and philosophies that worked when the economy was good, but led to huge financial losses during the immeidate post-9/11 downturn
- Led to early retirements of certain fleet types; particularly late-70s/early 80s era aircraft
- Led to the proliferation of RJs / regional airlines
- Started down the path of multiple Ch. 11 and Ch. 7s across the industry
- Started down the path that led to eventual mergers
- Started down the path/accelerated the un-bundling, surcharges, baggage fees, and charges for ancellary services in attempt to raise fares

4) Decimation of short-haul air travel due to real and/or perceived security-related hassles and additional/early arrival times at airports
 
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September11
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:51 am

Curtains and bulkheads onboard aren't the same anymore. Galley curtains are gone. Too many eyes today.
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stl07
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:56 am

September11 wrote:
Curtains and bulkheads onboard aren't the same anymore. Galley curtains are gone. Too many eyes today.

Nice username
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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September11
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:07 am

September 11th Security Fee read and imposed on all tickets sold.
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739er
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:14 am

I now need 2 people present in “my office” to go pee.
 
Runway28L
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:21 am

I just want to ask because I wasn't old enough when 9/11 happened... what was it like photographing airliners back then? I've heard of stories where spotting planes was very easy and hassle-free at most airports. Quite a few even had observation decks or dedicated areas to watch planes. Then 9/11 happened and due to heightened security, many of these areas were closed down and couldn't be accessed anymore.

Nowadays, some of us have to rely on businesses nearby an airport and use their area to get nice views of aircraft. But since everyone is haunted by the events of 9/11, there is more paranoia and there have been times where I or others I know have been reported as threats by people so we end up having to deal with law enforcement. It's pretty frustrating but that's just how things go sometimes.

At my airport at least, it's not much of a problem as long as I'm careful. But I've heard of airports that go to the extreme and treat spotters as threats (i.e. MCO).
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:53 am

Runway28L wrote:
I just want to ask because I wasn't old enough when 9/11 happened... what was it like photographing airliners back then? I've heard of stories where spotting planes was very easy and hassle-free at most airports. Quite a few even had observation decks or dedicated areas to watch planes. Then 9/11 happened and due to heightened security, many of these areas were closed down and couldn't be accessed anymore.
.


Our kindergarten class took a field trip to ATL. We cleared security one by one and an airport ambassador let us tour the airport.

Before 9/11, anyone could clear security at ATL and walk up to the gate. I remember dropping off or picking up family at the gate. My dad and I used to walk around the airport all afternoon to catch the widebodies leave and then grab dinner before heading home. I know there were a handful airports that never allowed non-ticketed passengers to the gate (JFK comes to mind) but in ATL it's night and day.
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:47 am

deltaflyertoo wrote:
I think the events of 9/11 expedited many changes that would have happened anyway but 9/11 had them happen sooner. For example the big 3 were always going to get rid of their 727s but after 9/11 they REALLY moved on this-one could argue as for United we still see the residual effects of their over retirement of the 727s and 737s to this day-(i.e. the over reliance on RJs on mainline routes)...if 9/11 hadn't happened-it prob. would have been more like 2008-2012 that would have happened...(if even then perhaps?).


The last passenger 727's would have been 30 years old in 2012. The oldest 727-200 Advanced were 29 years old in 2001. It's pretty unlikely airlines would have held on to a three engined three crewed plane in the early 2000's. The 737NG could fly further with lower CASM than any 727 and had ETOPS 180 directly from the factory if desired and had been steadily delivered from Boeing for over 4 years on 9/11/2001. Remember that the first United 727-100 was retired in 1991 after 27 years in service. The later 727's were not going to stay around longer.
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:58 am

ua900 wrote:
neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


My personal favorite was hanging out with the pilots on the flight deck of a MD-82 with a total of 3 pax and 5 F/As. Enough room for all 3 of us to hang out up there for the whole 2.5 hour flight and we told the F/As not to worry about serving us. Just walked up to the galley and grabbed a can of something when we wanted. Worked well for everyone lol.

It goes beyond airport security:

1. A whole bunch of SSI items for the F/As to consider
2. Proper training for spotting and dealing with potential security issues
3. FFDOs
4. 3-1-1
5. Consistency regarding no more flight deck visits
6. Cockpit barriers (those thin metal wires that many aircraft have now in lieu of a service cart blocking the way)
7. A whole lot more crew awareness
8. No more actual hijackings since now everyone assumes you're just trying to bring down the plane
9. In line with point 8, volunteers everywhere. Prior to 9/11 a number of people wouldn't have stuck out their necks if a F/A gets attacked
10. TSA pre-check, no fly lists, and a whole bunch of other things running in the background
11. People who buy tickets at the airport, one way, and/or with cash now raise flags
12. No more meet and greet at the gate unless the pax requests it
13. No more casual entering of a terminal for benign things like plane watching with kids
14. No more casual hanging out at the perimeter to watch planes at smaller and mid sized airfields with regularly scheduled commercial service

Security aside there are the following points:

1. No more 757s flying around with 40 people on a transcon, no more 767s with 60 people either
2. Industry consolidation would have likely happened anyway as alliances became more important after *A was founded in 1997, but 9/11 greatly increased the pressure to align as a precursor to the subsequent US 3 mergers
3. BoB took off, as did any other type of ancillary revenue
4. Status / mileage programs became a science and a major retention tool
5. Economy Plus / Premium economy / Flat bed service was greatly encouraged in the hunt for extra revenue
6. Increasing lack of decorum and grace in service standards (careless jacket collection / return, prepacked products in first and business class, outright replacement of first with business and replacement of business with premium economy, cheaper clubs, no more ticket jackets, toilet paper quality ticket stock, expectation that everyone uses self-service check in machines)

I have some fond memories of meeting my dad at the gate with my mom when I young. He was in the merchant marine and he often had to fly home to JFK or EWR from the southeast, west coast or even Europe. It also gave me a chance to check out the different planes parked at the various gates.
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LAXdenizen
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 am

Runway28L wrote:
I just want to ask because I wasn't old enough when 9/11 happened... what was it like photographing airliners back then? I've heard of stories where spotting planes was very easy and hassle-free at most airports. Quite a few even had observation decks or dedicated areas to watch planes. Then 9/11 happened and due to heightened security, many of these areas were closed down and couldn't be accessed anymore.

Nowadays, some of us have to rely on businesses nearby an airport and use their area to get nice views of aircraft. But since everyone is haunted by the events of 9/11, there is more paranoia and there have been times where I or others I know have been reported as threats by people so we end up having to deal with law enforcement. It's pretty frustrating but that's just how things go sometimes.

At my airport at least, it's not much of a problem as long as I'm careful. But I've heard of airports that go to the extreme and treat spotters as threats (i.e. MCO).


At LAX pre-9/11, I used to hang out at the north end of the airport adjacent to 24R, just west of the In-n-Out. There was this ancillary road (that I still don't recall the purpose of) and I would stand atop my bike which made me taller than the chainlink fence. There was barbed wire atop the fence but it tilted inward toward the airport so it wasn't a problem. If I remember this location was just beyond the point of touchdown and it was so close to the runway you could see the pilots faces. I did this for years.

After 9/11, I tried doing the above and was met with airport police within 10 minutes, asking me what I was doing. They were very unpleasant and I got out of there ASAP, never to return. Soon after, larger fences went up and the ancillary road closed. Soon after that the entire northern field perimeter was fenced again, this time with a much higher and stronger fence, security lighting, cameras, etc.

Looking back, I cannot believe that such a major airport was ever protected by such a simple, off-the-shelf chainlink and barbed wire fence. It's perimeter is now similar to a maximum security prison.
 
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:15 am

Runway28L wrote:
I just want to ask because I wasn't old enough when 9/11 happened... what was it like photographing airliners back then? I've heard of stories where spotting planes was very easy and hassle-free at most airports. Quite a few even had observation decks or dedicated areas to watch planes. Then 9/11 happened and due to heightened security, many of these areas were closed down and couldn't be accessed anymore.

Nowadays, some of us have to rely on businesses nearby an airport and use their area to get nice views of aircraft. But since everyone is haunted by the events of 9/11, there is more paranoia and there have been times where I or others I know have been reported as threats by people so we end up having to deal with law enforcement. It's pretty frustrating but that's just how things go sometimes.

At my airport at least, it's not much of a problem as long as I'm careful. But I've heard of airports that go to the extreme and treat spotters as threats (i.e. MCO).


- Plane spotting pre 9/11 was problem free, post 9/11 a different story, too much paranoia out there. So many times have I been stopped & questioned by the police & even the FBI on one occasion.

Spotters are a help, not a threat, shame law enforcement are not that clever to see that.
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:30 am

ba319-131 wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
I just want to ask because I wasn't old enough when 9/11 happened... what was it like photographing airliners back then? I've heard of stories where spotting planes was very easy and hassle-free at most airports. Quite a few even had observation decks or dedicated areas to watch planes. Then 9/11 happened and due to heightened security, many of these areas were closed down and couldn't be accessed anymore.

Nowadays, some of us have to rely on businesses nearby an airport and use their area to get nice views of aircraft. But since everyone is haunted by the events of 9/11, there is more paranoia and there have been times where I or others I know have been reported as threats by people so we end up having to deal with law enforcement. It's pretty frustrating but that's just how things go sometimes.

At my airport at least, it's not much of a problem as long as I'm careful. But I've heard of airports that go to the extreme and treat spotters as threats (i.e. MCO).


- Plane spotting pre 9/11 was problem free, post 9/11 a different story, too much paranoia out there. So many times have I been stopped & questioned by the police & even the FBI on one occasion.

Spotters are a help, not a threat, shame law enforcement are not that clever to see that.

I feel many law enforcement officers just get bored and want an opportunity to show off their badge
 
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fsx98
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:52 am

I would like to share some of my pre- and post-9/11 experiences: in the couple of months since moving to Missouri in 2000, me and the family went to the STL airport to say goodbye to my mom at the gate in Concourse C (home of TWA) while seeing the TWA planes in both the new and old liveries taxiing to and from the gates of Concourses C and D. At the time, I was around 6 years old, and I don't know where my mom flew to at the time, and I was bored staring at planes, to be honest (I was into cars at the time before the 2003 Vietnam trip, when I started becoming interested in planes).

Since 9/11, I was not aware about the increased security at airports nationwide, including not being able to go through security as a non-ticketed passenger, until a couple years later when me and my dad went to STL to drop off his relatives at the airport (I lingered outside of airport security leading to Concourse A), when I realized that I cannot go in the secure area of the terminal.

By the time my plane-spotting career had started in 2016, I was not aware that STL had a plane observation lot just off Lindbergh Blvd until 2002, when it was closed for the Runway 11/29 addition (opened in 2006); there were currently no plans for a new location for the observation area for plane spotting at STL, and plane spotting is not like what has been before 9/11, as St. Louis Airport Police are going from lenient to more aggressive on plane-spotting in various areas around the airport. In my experience, I almost had a nasty encounter with the airport police when I was plane spotting from the Terminal 1 Cell Phone Lot (offers free parking) while waiting for my niece to say goodbye to my grandma at Terminal 2 (current home of SWA) and all of a sudden, an airport police vehicle arrived at the Cell Phone lot. Although I was lucky that the airport police didn't approach me (he or she had stayed inside the vehicle the whole time), nor did he or she followed me when I left upon the airport cop's arrival, I had not spotted at that location since. From that point, whenever I go to the STL airport to either pick up or drop off one of my siblings with my parents (as my younger brother and sister fly out of state to college in NYU and UC Berkeley, respectively), I could plane spot from the ticketing area (upper floor of Terminal 1) and so far, knock on wood, I was not confronted by airport security. But even so, I find it sad that certain major airports, such as STL, ORD, and MCI, are not spotter-friendly at times, especially the NYC-area airports of EWR, JFK, and LGA, in which the PANYNJ and other local law enforcement are hostile to plane spotting (based on reading from various websites of plane spotting guides). I know that airport officials were concerned about security post-9/11, but I don't see why aviation photography in certain public locations are illegal (unless they have a reasonable explanation on why).

It is a sobering consensus that both air travel and aviation photography (in terms of plane spotting) in the US are not what it was before 9/11. I wish there are effective ways to make plane spotting an enjoyable hobby without worrying about the airport security harassing spotters as well as ensuring that air travel is more enjoyable with the level of airport security we have today and what airline customer service was like back before 9/11.
 
Arion640
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:01 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
In terms of aircraft, I would posit that the effects of 9/11, which caused a downturn in travel, caused the mass retirement of a lot of early 747s (100, 100B, 200B, -300), tri-jets (DC10, MD11, L101, B721/2) as well as early second-generation twinjets (DC-9, B731, B732, BA11, A30B). Airlines were forced to streamline their operations with smaller equipment. Really helped by this was the Airbus A320 programme. Basically, it marked the end of the era for anything not efficient in terms of aircraft, and the beginning of an era of more longer missions on smaller aircraft.

* BA11 is the BAC One-Eleven, L101 - TriStar


You can add Concorde to that list (combined with the crash).
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:21 am

Domestic Y in the U.S. prior to 9/11
- Free bags
- Free assigned seats (including exit row)
- Quick & easy security (arriving 45mins prior to departure with bags was normal)
- Having family and friends not traveling go to the gate with you
- Boarding an empty mainline aircraft
- Extra Flight Attendants for meal service
- Pillows & blankets
- Actual food (ie bagels for breakfast PVD-ORD, hot meals Trans Con)
- Having family and friends meet you at the actual arrival gate
- Earning 500 miles minimum for every flight
 
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Embajador3
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am

airbazar wrote:
Embajador3 wrote:
Where do I start??? As a FA myself, I can honestly tell you that things went for the worst. This event marked the begining of a lot of changes of the passenger experience at the airport and onboard. Airlines began to charge for onboard catering, then went on to charging you for the second checked it suitcase, then began adding more seats to the planes, reduced the no. of FAs to the minumum and working conditions went for worse, reduced ammenities (such as refreshing towels, complimentary soap bars in toilets, etc). For us, it also meant having to count the amount of cutlery... . As you can see, it changed pretty much everything.

None of this was the result of 9/11.
IMO aviation did't change much. Security as a whole changed but not just in aviation, and mainly in the U.S. as the rest of the world already had most of the security measures that were implemented in the U.S. post 9/11. For example, the idea that anyone could just walk up to a gate with little or no screening in some cases was mostly a U.S. thing. Lack of proof of identification when flying also only existed in the U.S. Flying domestically in those days was really just like taking a bus. Many times at a major U.S. airport I was able to walk right onto the tarmac and among the airplanes as they were being serviced and was never questioned or stopped. That would have been unthinkable in most of the rest of the world.

I beg to differ.
Flying Together
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:48 am

It has made travel within the U,S a nightmare, Recently flew BNA-ORD-CPH and back. The international part, and end and security at CPH security were great. TSA in the U.S.is FUBAR'ed beyond belief.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:49 am

It has made travel within the U,S a nightmare, Recently flew BNA-ORD-CPH and back. The international part, and end and security at CPH security were great. TSA in the U.S.is FUBAR'ed beyond belief.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:54 am

neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


I frankly believe that 9/11 has been used as the "panacea excuse" to cut wages, outsource services, worsen working conditions and mine any sort of remaining job security throughout any industry - not just aviation.
9/11 has been an undisputed blessing for companies, corporations (the bigger the company the more so) and employers generally across all types of industries -as well as governments alike- to justify all sorts of random cuts, closures, mergers, acquisitions and de-centralizations. It's been the beginning f the end for all and any remaining certainty that workers had in the industry.
All sorts of shameful actions have been accomplished and justified in the name of the 'post- 9/11' syndrome.
9/11has sealed the fate of people who are now virtually held hostage of a corporational society that merely responds to the insatiable hunger of banks and shareholders.
 
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ADent
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:05 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
deltaflyertoo wrote:
I think the events of 9/11 expedited many changes that would have happened anyway but 9/11 had them happen sooner. For example the big 3 were always going to get rid of their 727s but after 9/11 they REALLY moved on this-one could argue as for United we still see the residual effects of their over retirement of the 727s and 737s to this day-(i.e. the over reliance on RJs on mainline routes)...if 9/11 hadn't happened-it prob. would have been more like 2008-2012 that would have happened...(if even then perhaps?).


The last passenger 727's would have been 30 years old in 2012. The oldest 727-200 Advanced were 29 years old in 2001. It's pretty unlikely airlines would have held on to a three engined three crewed plane in the early 2000's. The 737NG could fly further with lower CASM than any 727 and had ETOPS 180 directly from the factory if desired and had been steadily delivered from Boeing for over 4 years on 9/11/2001. Remember that the first United 727-100 was retired in 1991 after 27 years in service. The later 727's were not going to stay around longer.


United planed to retire the 727s by 2003 - see viewtopic.php?t=89725 .
Instead they were retired by 10/30/2001 - along with the 737-200s.

It looks like United cut 23% of the ASMs by 10/31/2001.

In 6/01 United expected to be at 611 aircraft at the end of the 2001. Best I can figure ( viewtopic.php?t=234683 ) United was at 501 in 2004.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:07 am

oldannyboy wrote:
neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


I frankly believe that 9/11 has been used as the "panacea excuse" to cut wages, outsource services, worsen working conditions and mine any sort of remaining job security throughout any industry - not just aviation.
9/11 has been an undisputed blessing for companies, corporations (the bigger the company the more so) and employers generally across all types of industries -as well as governments alike- to justify all sorts of random cuts, closures, mergers, acquisitions and de-centralizations. It's been the beginning f the end for all and any remaining certainty that workers had in the industry.
All sorts of shameful actions have been accomplished and justified in the name of the 'post- 9/11' syndrome.
9/11has sealed the fate of people who are now virtually held hostage of a corporational society that merely responds to the insatiable hunger of banks and shareholders.


I could not express it better.
Caravelle lover
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:30 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


I frankly believe that 9/11 has been used as the "panacea excuse" to cut wages, outsource services, worsen working conditions and mine any sort of remaining job security throughout any industry - not just aviation.
9/11 has been an undisputed blessing for companies, corporations (the bigger the company the more so) and employers generally across all types of industries -as well as governments alike- to justify all sorts of random cuts, closures, mergers, acquisitions and de-centralizations. It's been the beginning f the end for all and any remaining certainty that workers had in the industry.
All sorts of shameful actions have been accomplished and justified in the name of the 'post- 9/11' syndrome.
9/11has sealed the fate of people who are now virtually held hostage of a corporational society that merely responds to the insatiable hunger of banks and shareholders.


I could not express it better.


Thanks mate.

It's a sad reality indeed. The [world] market [was made to] never recover. We are all still imprisoned in this post -9/11 "state of perpetual emergency" that dictates so much of our lobbies' and governments' (brutal, unjust) actions in the name of keeping the economy afloat, pursue [unattainable] perpetual economic growth, and security (cue the many wars to 'export democracy" and protect access to oil fields!!!).

If I didn't believe in conspiracy theories I would argue that the Wall Street gang orchestrated the whole thing with some (minor) help from Al-Qaeda for the 'mere technicalities' involved in flying the jets into the buildings.
 
gadFly
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:57 am

I remember taking pics at JFK from the side of highway ramp (I walked there-- pretty silly in terms of getting run over, but hey, nice shots!) A JFK cop stopped his car, demanded to see my ID. I explained that I was an airplane nut. He did not even pat me down and called the dispatch to tell them "the individual checks out." There was no internet then (email, yes), and it was all slides, no digital, but the trust was something I miss.
 
hnldc10s
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:12 am

Celebrities could fly under fake names to throw off airport staff.
I had a friend who wanted to borrow my credit card to charge a plane ticket and he would pay me back later. I told him he could as long as he traveled under my name so I could get the frequent flyer miles. Getting through security was a matter of minutes and was even easier than precheck is today.

Security consisted of 3 questions at check in:
1. who packed your suitcase?
2. has your suitcase been out of your possession since you packed it?
3. has anyone given you anything to carry on the airplane?
no ID check of any kind
 
seat38a
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:29 am

Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:17 am

They had real curtains between first and coach with velcro ties. God forbid you tried to cross it because the FA's would bounce you out of the premium cabin in a millisecond. There was no debate about coach passengers using the premium cabin bathroom because you couldn't get your foot into FC before one was kicked out and the curtains drawn on your face with enough force that their was a unique sound it made.

https://youtu.be/UcH69hwvnv4
 
MartijnNL
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:24 am

LAXdenizen wrote:
Looking back, I cannot believe that such a major airport was ever protected by such a simple, off-the-shelf chainlink and barbed wire fence. It's perimeter is now similar to a maximum security prison.

At Amsterdam Airport Schiphol the only thing between you and the runway might be a canal. Still no fences in 2018, isn't that great?
 
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CARST
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:10 am

I think purely regarding aviation, 9/11 is hugely overrated. Beside hightened security, everything else that happened would have happened anyway.

Why did we see the airlines getting greedy? Why did service go down? Why did BOB appear? Why did baggage fees were introduced? Why did the pax were nickel and dimed for everything else than safe transportation? It's all because of two things: (1) Low Cost Carriers forcing the legacy airlines to rethink their business and (2) higher competition post deregulation combined with the US airlines missing market trends.

Where was the aviation world in 2001, pre 9/11?

PanAm had gone through a massive decline in the 80s and had gone bust in 1991. Eastern Airlines, too, also 1991. TWA had gone bust in 1993, but Icahn going out and that employee-management-committee taking over saved the airline to stay in business until April 2001, when AA bought the remaining parts. This was all pre 9/11!

The majors were all in trouble. They had forgotten to react properly to the deregulated market. And then in the late 90s the LCCs started to appear massively in the scene. There was Southwest Airlines, long time around since 1967, but on a huge growth spurt in the 90s, there was JetBlue founded in 1998, Allegiant founded in 1997, Spirit also founded sometimes in the 90s. The market was changing. People were voting with their wallets. And the big airlines didn't react in timely manner.

At the same time, when Economy fares were going downhill, it got more and more important to get the well paying corporate and business customers. And the airlines started fighting for them with better and better seats, lounges and soft products. And this was something the US airlines were REALLY, REALLY bad at. This has changed today, but back then, they were loosing customers massively to Asian and European airlines on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacfic Oceans, at least in the longhaul market.

Then there, at that time, they still had the strong domestic US market to rely on, but what happened before 9/11? Yes, the DotCom-bubble went bust. Comparable to the subprime-mortage- and banking-crisis of 2007/2008. This let passengers numbers in premium classes drop immensely. This already sealed the fate for many airlines, despite some not knowing it at this point.

So all together, pre 9/11, we had the perfect conditions for a massive crisis in the US airline industry. And all the airlines needed at that point was to be grounded for a few days and another domestic crisis, what 9/11 was. So 9/11 was just a catalysator, it was an event which sped things up a bit. But everything that has happened, would have happened without 9/11. Airlines going bust, airlines going through chapter 11, the big mergers, the airlines relying on alliances, airlines lowering service standards and saving money where possible.


9/11 is important for the USA as a national tragedy. And it brought us worldwide more security (hassle?!). But it's not related to anything that happened in the aviation scene.

Ionosphere wrote:
Domestic Y in the U.S. prior to 9/11
- Free bags
- Free assigned seats (including exit row)
- Quick & easy security (arriving 45mins prior to departure with bags was normal)
- Having family and friends not traveling go to the gate with you
- Boarding an empty mainline aircraft
- Extra Flight Attendants for meal service
- Pillows & blankets
- Actual food (ie bagels for breakfast PVD-ORD, hot meals Trans Con)
- Having family and friends meet you at the actual arrival gate
- Earning 500 miles minimum for every flight


Not that you mention it, but nothing of this has changed because of 9/11, except the security related stuff. But some things you mentioned were too costly to maintain in the deregulated market with more airlines than ever in the US domestic market. Just too expensive, despite great for the customers.

oldannyboy wrote:
I frankly believe that 9/11 has been used as the "panacea excuse" to cut wages, outsource services, worsen working conditions and mine any sort of remaining job security throughout any industry - not just aviation.
9/11 has been an undisputed blessing for companies, corporations (the bigger the company the more so) and employers generally across all types of industries -as well as governments alike- to justify all sorts of random cuts, closures, mergers, acquisitions and de-centralizations. It's been the beginning f the end for all and any remaining certainty that workers had in the industry.
All sorts of shameful actions have been accomplished and justified in the name of the 'post- 9/11' syndrome.


Everything you said is correct. The airlines had to lay off people and reduce their old fleets and get rid of the gas guzzling jets already pre 9/11. But with the excuse of 9/11 it could happen faster without anyone being "angry at them".

airbazar wrote:
Embajador3 wrote:
Where do I start??? As a FA myself, I can honestly tell you that things went for the worst. This event marked the begining of a lot of changes of the passenger experience at the airport and onboard. Airlines began to charge for onboard catering, then went on to charging you for the second checked it suitcase, then began adding more seats to the planes, reduced the no. of FAs to the minumum and working conditions went for worse, reduced ammenities (such as refreshing towels, complimentary soap bars in toilets, etc). For us, it also meant having to count the amount of cutlery... . As you can see, it changed pretty much everything.


None of this was the result of 9/11.
IMO aviation did't change much. Security as a whole changed but not just in aviation, and mainly in the U.S. as the rest of the world already had most of the security measures that were implemented in the U.S. post 9/11. For example, the idea that anyone could just walk up to a gate with little or no screening in some cases was mostly a U.S. thing. Lack of proof of identification when flying also only existed in the U.S. Flying domestically in those days was really just like taking a bus. Many times at a major U.S. airport I was able to walk right onto the tarmac and among the airplanes as they were being serviced and was never questioned or stopped. That would have been unthinkable in most of the rest of the world.


I also agree to this. The security level in Europe was much higher than in the US, due to all the aircraft highjackings of left-extreme and Arab terrorist groups in the 70s and 80s. The US needed a year or two just to play catch up after 9/11, before they started to lay out a full sized plan on how aviation could be made safer on a worldwide scale. Some things that happened were very good, like the "naked people scanners", the bomb sniffing devices and the whole exchange of data between the airlines and the governments. Other things were less of a success, like the TSA...
 
airbazar
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am

CARST wrote:
I think purely regarding aviation, 9/11 is hugely overrated. Beside hightened security, everything else that happened would have happened anyway..

Agree 100%. Evolution of aviation was going to happen one way or another.
The Ryanair model was already well established in Europe and it was only a matter of time until it made its way across the Atlantic. None of the operational changes were a direct result of 9/11. They were merely the result of airlines, most of which were already in BK trouble (CO had already gone thru Ch.11 twice before 9/11), using the excuse of 9/11 to hasten this evolution.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1728
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:50 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
neomax wrote:
People often talk about how aviation changed after 9/11 which is definitely true to some degree, but the conversation pretty much ends there. Everyone knows about airport security, but that's pretty much it as far as changes go. Of course, there was a substantial downturn in aviation as well prompting bankruptcies throughout the industry but people often talk about these events as a sea change which I personally do not think it was. It is often referred to in the same vein as events such as deregulation or consolidation which I think had a much bigger role in shaping the industry into what it looks like today. How much did 9/11 really change the industry? Its impact is undeniable but the landscape is still pretty much identical post 2001 besides security.


I frankly believe that 9/11 has been used as the "panacea excuse" to cut wages, outsource services, worsen working conditions and mine any sort of remaining job security throughout any industry - not just aviation.
9/11 has been an undisputed blessing for companies, corporations (the bigger the company the more so) and employers generally across all types of industries -as well as governments alike- to justify all sorts of random cuts, closures, mergers, acquisitions and de-centralizations. It's been the beginning f the end for all and any remaining certainty that workers had in the industry.
All sorts of shameful actions have been accomplished and justified in the name of the 'post- 9/11' syndrome.
9/11has sealed the fate of people who are now virtually held hostage of a corporational society that merely responds to the insatiable hunger of banks and shareholders.


I could not express it better.


Someone called me out for putting my laptop bag down outside the lav while I went for pee the other day... Was going to report it to security as a potential bomb threat.

This just a plain little(*) engineering office where you have to pass security to get on site and then swipe a badge to get into the building - industrial espionage, okay - but bomb threats? Come on!

(*) Edited to clarify that this is not some kind of corporate headquarters but just a dull grey box among other dull grey boxes.
Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: How much did aviation really change after 9/11?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am

MartijnNL wrote:
LAXdenizen wrote:
Looking back, I cannot believe that such a major airport was ever protected by such a simple, off-the-shelf chainlink and barbed wire fence. It's perimeter is now similar to a maximum security prison.

At Amsterdam Airport Schiphol the only thing between you and the runway might be a canal. Still no fences in 2018, isn't that great?


I find myself thinking about how you could get through most times I'm taxiing to/from the Polderbaan...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."

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