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keesje
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Boeing 737MAX10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:11 pm

Boeing last week shared an interesting video on how the new 737-10 landing gear works:
https://youtu.be/F4IGl4OizM4

This landing gear is instrumental in making possible higher cabin capacity and enhances runway performance.
Image

United's Kirby announced they will install lay flat seats on a subfleet of the carrier’s 737-10s.
They'll probably for transcon service. United is the 737-10 biggest customer with 100 737-10 on order.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-interiors/united-plans-introduce-737-10-lie-flat-premium-seat-2020

Boeing claims the 737-10 will have supeior cost levels against the competing A321NEO.
For 737MAX customers it make a lot of sense to upgrade to the -10 rather than introducing a new type.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/737max10/assets/images/gallery/info-graphic-full_new.jpg
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: updated title for clarity
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:24 pm

What is important to remember is that the size of MAX ordered is easily changed. Boeing asks 2 years before delivery and most customers have a price offered for upgrade.

My personal opinion is the 737-10 sales will take off after the CMC turbine PIP. We saw this happen with the 739ER after the Nov 2011 CFM-56-7 PIP. Same time frame as the A321 Sharklets and a V2500 SelectTWO PIP that resulted in an industry wide upgauge. Look at how sales of the 739 and A321 were so slow until those PIPs. The engine overhaul intervals dramatically improved as well as fuel burn for the stretches at high MTOW.

If the Pratt PW1100G 35k PIP solves issues, it will result in defections to the A321...

Lightsaber
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VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What is important to remember is that the size of MAX ordered is easily changed. Boeing asks 2 years before delivery and most customers have a price offered for upgrade.

My personal opinion is the 737-10 sales will take off after the CMC turbine PIP. We saw this happen with the 739ER after the Nov 2011 CFM-56-7 PIP. Same time frame as the A321 Sharklets and a V2500 SelectTWO PIP that resulted in an industry wide upgauge. Look at how sales of the 739 and A321 were so slow until those PIPs. The engine overhaul intervals dramatically improved as well as fuel burn for the stretches at high MTOW.

If the Pratt PW1100G 35k PIP solves issues, it will result in defections to the A321...

Lightsaber



Isn't the 737-10 more targeted to operators that already have 737NG or even other members of the MAX family?

It would be difficult to think that A320 operators, ceo or neo, would shift to 737-10 just because it is offered.

The same thing is also valid in the other direction. I do not think 737 operators would order A321neo just because it's there.

So I find the discussion a little bit sterile.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:42 pm

So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:50 pm

par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?
 
747superliner
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:52 pm

keesje wrote:
Boeing last week shared an interesting video on how the new 737-10 landing gear works:
https://youtu.be/F4IGl4OizM4


That is pretty cool. It's kind of analagous to how the main gear tilts up on the 773/77W right as the plane lifts off the runway to allow for greater ground clearance and avoid a tailstrike.

On the other hand, I wonder how this will work from a maintenance point of view...
 
Elementalism
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:05 pm

VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?


Yeah forced Delta to take more 737-900ERs? It seems to me that Delta is quite happy with that plane. All the domestic routes out of MSP I fly are loaded with them. But I will grab a 757 when possible. They seem interchangeable on these routes(PHX, SLC, ATL)
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What is important to remember is that the size of MAX ordered is easily changed. Boeing asks 2 years before delivery and most customers have a price offered for upgrade.

My personal opinion is the 737-10 sales will take off after the CMC turbine PIP. We saw this happen with the 739ER after the Nov 2011 CFM-56-7 PIP. Same time frame as the A321 Sharklets and a V2500 SelectTWO PIP that resulted in an industry wide upgauge. Look at how sales of the 739 and A321 were so slow until those PIPs. The engine overhaul intervals dramatically improved as well as fuel burn for the stretches at high MTOW.

If the Pratt PW1100G 35k PIP solves issues, it will result in defections to the A321...

Lightsaber



What exactly will the turbine CMC PIP consist of? I assume it will only involve static parts, ie. shrouds and nozzle. To my knowledge rotating CMC parts are still out on the frontier of materials R&D...


Faro
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:18 pm

VV wrote:
By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?


I guess make them an offer they cannot refuse (speculation was they received a 51% discount, though considering the massive and long-term backlogs for both families (old and new engines) from both OEMs, this might very well be the "new norm".

Then again, if all it takes to win a large 737-9(00) order is a low price, one wonders why Boeing hasn't won more RFPs against the A321... :scratchchin: :shhh:
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
VV wrote:
By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?


I guess make them an offer they cannot refuse (speculation was they received a 51% discount, though considering the massive and long-term backlogs for both families (old and new engines) from both OEMs, this might very well be the "new norm".

Then again, if all it takes to win a large 737-9(00) order is a low price, one wonders why Boeing hasn't won more RFPs against the A321... :scratchchin: :shhh:


Do you mean that somebody else could have forced them to take another aircraft if they offered a better deal?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:51 pm

par13del wrote:
Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


If DL signed a contract with Put Options in it then they were not forced into anything, they chose those terms and it is very likely that the terms were extremely favorable to DL.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:55 pm

VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?


Technically, Boeing exercised a "put option" for 10 737-900ERs that DL did not "voluntarily" order. IMO, DL agreed, exercising the put option was just how the deal was transacted.

Regardless, DL ordered 737-900ERs in MULTIPLE batches so your insinuation that DL didn't want more of the aircraft is misplaced.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:03 pm

VV wrote:
Do you mean that somebody else could have forced them to take another aircraft if they offered a better deal?


I don't believe Boeing forced Delta to do anything they didn't want to, regardless of the price offered.

That being said, some have claimed Boeing offers US-based airlines 737s at below production cost to win orders so if this was truly the case, one wonders why they bother to order Airbus, because those same people would vehemently deny that Airbus needs to deeply discount to sell A320s so the 737s would always be the [far] cheaper option.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:09 pm

If we quote our own web site, but there are other links up on google
viewtopic.php?t=1360539
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:18 pm

There is a question relative to the modified landing gear.

Since the commonality of the interface is total, is there any benefit that 737 MAX can take from this new landing gear.

If so, what kind of TOW (at same TOFL) or runway length (at same TOW) can MAX 9 get a benefit from the landing gear?

In a broader term, can it make the 737 MAX 9 more attractive?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?


Technically, Boeing exercised a "put option" for 10 737-900ERs that DL did not "voluntarily" order. IMO, DL agreed, exercising the put option was just how the deal was transacted.

Regardless, DL ordered 737-900ERs in MULTIPLE batches so your insinuation that DL didn't want more of the aircraft is misplaced.


Delta and Boeing made a deal that Delta would be willing to help fill the bridge between the 737NG and 737MAX. Delta had negotiated options that Boeing could exercise if they wanted to. High production rate planes like the 737 constantly have airlines swapping around production slots which becomes problematic as the production of the 737NG is shrinking. Delta was willing to take more airplanes at a specific price (likely highly discounted). Boeing had the option to sell the airplanes to Delta if other airlines cancelled orders or weren’t able to take delivery. Delta already had 120 737-900ERs on order. The last 10 was an option contract. If Boeing didn’t exercise the contract, Delta could have purchased more used 737-800s like they have been doing in the last few years.

Delta is a business that is very capital conscious. The pay will buy new planes if the price is right or used airplanes if that is a better value proposition. Delta having an option contract indicates that they do see a place in their fleet for the 737-900ER. They may also order the 737-10 one day. They pretty much operate every western narrowbody built in the last 30years.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:50 pm

keesje wrote:
Boeing last week shared an interesting video on how the new 737-10 landing gear works:
https://youtu.be/F4IGl4OizM4

This landing gear is instrumental in making possible higher cabin capacity and enhances runway performance.
Image

United's Kirby announced they will install lay flat seats on a subfleet of the carrier’s 737-10s.
They'll probably for transcon service. United is the 737-10 biggest customer with 100 737-10 on order.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-interiors/united-plans-introduce-737-10-lie-flat-premium-seat-2020

Boeing claims the 737-10 will have supeior cost levels against the competing A321NEO.
For 737MAX customers it make a lot of sense to upgrade to the -10 rather than introducing a new type.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/737max10/assets/images/gallery/info-graphic-full_new.jpg



Any news on what style seat UA will be using for their J seats on the 73J?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:50 pm

VV wrote:
There is a question relative to the modified landing gear.

Since the commonality of the interface is total, is there any benefit that 737 MAX can take from this new landing gear.

If so, what kind of TOW (at same TOFL) or runway length (at same TOW) can MAX 9 get a benefit from the landing gear?

In a broader term, can it make the 737 MAX 9 more attractive?


It probably could be offered in the 737-9 as a short field performance package. There likely would be a higher cost and more weight, so unless an airline really wants that configuration, I doubt it would be offered. The 737-8 can be configured for runways under 5,000 feet. That probably is the better option. Airlines can buy the 737-7 or 737-8 where performance is needed and the 737-10 where capacity is needed.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:55 pm

This thread has gone completely off topic.
Thanks and best Regards
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:58 pm

VV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What is important to remember is that the size of MAX ordered is easily changed. Boeing asks 2 years before delivery and most customers have a price offered for upgrade.

My personal opinion is the 737-10 sales will take off after the CMC turbine PIP. We saw this happen with the 739ER after the Nov 2011 CFM-56-7 PIP. Same time frame as the A321 Sharklets and a V2500 SelectTWO PIP that resulted in an industry wide upgauge. Look at how sales of the 739 and A321 were so slow until those PIPs. The engine overhaul intervals dramatically improved as well as fuel burn for the stretches at high MTOW.

If the Pratt PW1100G 35k PIP solves issues, it will result in defections to the A321...

Lightsaber



Isn't the 737-10 more targeted to operators that already have 737NG or even other members of the MAX family?

It would be difficult to think that A320 operators, ceo or neo, would shift to 737-10 just because it is offered.

The same thing is also valid in the other direction. I do not think 737 operators would order A321neo just because it's there.

So I find the discussion a little bit sterile.

The MAX targets large orders. The cost to switch is not what it was. Many large airlines opperate both the 737 and A320 and will keep switching.

Airlines switched from the 737 classic to the CEO. While I'm not aware of any switching to the MAX, the same logic applies to the A220 as the MAX. We have seen LZ, DL, and B6 order the A220 despite it being a new type.

For ordering less than 20, it is a barrier to order a new type. For orders over 50? There isn't much cost.

Difficult? Again, it will depend on the offer from Airbus and Boeing. The orders will be Airbus' to lose, but they will overbid now and then. e.g., UA flies A320 yet bought -10.

LionAir and AirAsia will be two primary targets of the -10 in future RFQs.

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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:03 pm

In the beginning there were doubts on the -900. It was exit door limitted to 180 passengers and when mod for -900ER (door, flat bulkhead) proved relatively heavy (600kg?). But soon after the -900ER (extra seats, range) proved great value for US and Asian operators. And no doubt the - 10 will also. Around 10% of the 737NG left the fall as -900ER.
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:10 pm

keesje wrote:
In the beginning there were doubts on the -900. It was exit door limitted to 180 passengers and when mod for -900ER (door, flat bulkhead) proved relatively heavy (600kg?). But soon after the -900ER (extra seats, range) proved great value for US and Asian operators. And no doubt the - 10 will also. Around 10% of the 737NG left the fall as -900ER.


The 737-900 was originally limited to 189 seats, not 180
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:24 pm

I imagine a key target for the MAX10 is the replacement market for regional US 757's no?
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:41 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
VV wrote:
There is a question relative to the modified landing gear.

Since the commonality of the interface is total, is there any benefit that 737 MAX can take from this new landing gear.

If so, what kind of TOW (at same TOFL) or runway length (at same TOW) can MAX 9 get a benefit from the landing gear?

In a broader term, can it make the 737 MAX 9 more attractive?


It probably could be offered in the 737-9 as a short field performance package. There likely would be a higher cost and more weight, so unless an airline really wants that configuration, I doubt it would be offered. The 737-8 can be configured for runways under 5,000 feet. That probably is the better option. Airlines can buy the 737-7 or 737-8 where performance is needed and the 737-10 where capacity is needed.


I think the capacity difference between the 737 MAX 9 and 737 MAX 10 is only 12 seats or so. MAX 9 is about 20 seats larger than the MAX 8.

Yes, a landing gear option for the 737 MAX 9 for better field performance can be done easily because the interface between the landing gear and the aircraft is exactly the same between MAX 9 and MAX.

The question is still the extent of improvement with such landing gear option. If it gives a better take-off performance for the 737 MAX 10 then most probably it will give better performance for 737 MAX 9 too.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Airlines switched from the 737 classic to the CEO. While I'm not aware of any switching to the MAX, the same logic applies to the A220 as the MAX. We have seen LZ, DL, and B6 order the A220 despite it being a new type.
Lightsaber


If my memory serves me well, Air Canada switched to 737. I don't know whether it was the NG or MAX. I think Silkair also swithed to 737, but again I do not know whether it was NG or MAX.

But that's not the issue.

You are absolutely right to say that switching aircraft is not a problem any more, especially when you have a big enough fleet.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:53 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
This thread has gone completely off topic.


This ^. Why does every a.net user insist on making every thread about DL or UA? :roll: There are literally thousands of threads for you to discuss what seats UA will be using or the intracacies of DLs fleet.

Mods, delete this trash please. :roll:
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 pm

VV wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
VV wrote:
There is a question relative to the modified landing gear.

Since the commonality of the interface is total, is there any benefit that 737 MAX can take from this new landing gear.

If so, what kind of TOW (at same TOFL) or runway length (at same TOW) can MAX 9 get a benefit from the landing gear?

In a broader term, can it make the 737 MAX 9 more attractive?


It probably could be offered in the 737-9 as a short field performance package. There likely would be a higher cost and more weight, so unless an airline really wants that configuration, I doubt it would be offered. The 737-8 can be configured for runways under 5,000 feet. That probably is the better option. Airlines can buy the 737-7 or 737-8 where performance is needed and the 737-10 where capacity is needed.


I think the capacity difference between the 737 MAX 9 and 737 MAX 10 is only 12 seats or so. MAX 9 is about 20 seats larger than the MAX 8.

Yes, a landing gear option for the 737 MAX 9 for better field performance can be done easily because the interface between the landing gear and the aircraft is exactly the same between MAX 9 and MAX.

The question is still the extent of improvement with such landing gear option. If it gives a better take-off performance for the 737 MAX 10 then most probably it will give better performance for 737 MAX 9 too.


Using the Max 10 gear on the Max 9 would mostly be a matter of whether the additional range for the Max 9 would be beneficial.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:46 pm

I am looking forward to how Boeing plays the -10MAX. Is the design finalised yet?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:49 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
This thread has gone completely off topic.

It seems like the thread that was supposed to be about MAX10 has largely become about MAX9.
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B764er
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:15 pm

About time something was said about the MAX10! everybody has been so quiet about it it is simply maddening! When are we going to see it at last? There aren't even pics of it being built, like they have of the 748i and even the 779x last week. Pics please!
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
This thread has gone completely off topic.

It seems like the thread that was supposed to be about MAX10 has largely become about MAX9.


Well, to be fair the shortcomings of the 739/ MAX 9 created the MAX 10. I think its fair to talk about 739/MAX 9. I'm curious to know as well if the 9 models will get the new 10 gear. I think it should be a no-brainer, put it on the 9's and let the customer decided if they want the 9 or 10
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:40 pm

In light of the recent 737 crash in Sochi, will this "crutch" allow more flare angle?
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:52 pm

B764er wrote:
About time something was said about the MAX10! everybody has been so quiet about it it is simply maddening! When are we going to see it at last?


The plane is still in design review and first flight is not targeted until a year from now so it will probably be awhile before the first frame enters the FAL.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:00 pm

It will be interesting to see how much field performance improves with the new gear, and specifically whether it's enough that a MAX 9 with the MAX 10 gear could get significantly closer to the field performance of the MAX 8. A MAX 9 that could get into shorter fields would probably be a more interesting upgrade than the MAX 8 for a number of existing 737-800 operators.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:17 pm

par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.

So who held the gun to who's head?


Oh you mean Delta agreed to put options and Boeing exercised them? Again, the put options DELTA AGREED TOO? is that what we are talking about?


It really is amazing to me how much it bothers certain people when the 739 gets ordered over the 321.
Stitch wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you mean that somebody else could have forced them to take another aircraft if they offered a better deal?


I don't believe Boeing forced Delta to do anything they didn't want to, regardless of the price offered.


That being said, some have claimed Boeing offers US-based airlines 737s at below production cost to win orders so if this was truly the case, one wonders why they bother to order Airbus, because those same people would vehemently deny that Airbus needs to deeply discount to sell A320s so the 737s would always be the [far] cheaper option.

They didn't. Anyone who says they did has no idea how basic agreements really work. Delta agreed to the options.

VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?


what do you mean is there scope?

Delta could order the 737M and NMA, it all depends on what kind of deal Boeing/CFM, Airbus/CFM, Airbus/Pratt are willing to make. The last order for 100+100 321Ns came down to the engine MRO engine deal Pratt was willing to do. If/when CFM steps up to the plate and make a deal.

having said that, Delta, United and American are all simply too large at this point to have one large narrow body OEM. Between mainline and regional all 3 operate something from each of the 4 major OEMs in the world and I don't expect that to change any time soon. We are very very young into the cycle of MAXs/NEOs being ordered for replacement. Later in like all three will have a lot of CEO/NGs that will need to be replaced and its highly unlikely a single source will do it.

On top of that, Delta being so large in the MRO game it is very unlikely they would stop operating (and thus dropping heavy support) for the 737.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:19 pm

It seems the 737-10 cabin will be 1.6 m / 63 inch longer than the 737-9 cabin. 2 Seating rows.

So Boeing probably will not do the extra investment on the 737-9. Few customers will prefer the -9s seating capacity over the -10.

Originally I had thought the new 737-10 landing gear would be stretched permanently, when on the ground.

In order to create room under the wing for bigger Leap-1A or -1C engines.

Image

Apparently Boeing didn't want to go that far on the 737-10.

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:31 pm

keesje wrote:
Originally I had thought the new 737-10 landing gear would be stretched permanently, when on the ground.

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..


More practically than that I think longer main gear would have pax climbing a slope to the tail of the plane and descending in to deplane. They've already crammed as much nose gear into the MAX as they can so any fixed increase in main gear length would make for a very awkward/unsafe boarding situation.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:40 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
keesje wrote:
Originally I had thought the new 737-10 landing gear would be stretched permanently, when on the ground.

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..


More practically than that I think longer main gear would have pax climbing a slope to the tail of the plane and descending in to deplane. They've already crammed as much nose gear into the MAX as they can so any fixed increase in main gear length would make for a very awkward/unsafe boarding situation.


Well you could lift the gear 5 inch before the engines start. It's a mechanism & I've seen that technology before :wink2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IstKRupkn0
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mig21uti
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:48 pm

seabosdca wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much field performance improves with the new gear, and specifically whether it's enough that a MAX 9 with the MAX 10 gear could get significantly closer to the field performance of the MAX 8. A MAX 9 that could get into shorter fields would probably be a more interesting upgrade than the MAX 8 for a number of existing 737-800 operators.


A max 10, with 2 extra fuel tanks instead of one will able to fly 16J/176Y pax to 3700/3800 nm. A max10 ER could be an interesting machine.

the max8 and 9 with the max10 landing gear could be interesting too.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:50 pm

keesje wrote:
Apparently Boeing didn't want to go that far on the 737-10.

This was sorted out two years ago.

Have you already forgotten the MadMax vs MOM vs MaxDumbo days? :old:

Ref: viewtopic.php?t=1344107

PS: As you see, I'm willing to take a run at Team B too.
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jayunited
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:04 am

par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


How does a manufacturer force an airline to order a specific type of aircraft? Does Boeing have some type of leverage over Delta, are they blackmailing Delta? Perhaps this is why DL ordered the A321 because they were forced into buying 739ERs.
If your statement were true wouldn't Boeing have also forced DL and later on UA to order the 748i to extend the life of the passenger jet?
Wouldn't Airbus force the worlds largest international airlines to order their A380?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:09 am

keesje wrote:

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..


I have never heard of bending moments during crosswind landings as being a particularly challenging design constraint for a strut. The main strut issues that I know of are proper shear loads, corrosion at the attach fittings and issues with vapor barriers and fire protection.

Bigger fans aren’t always better
Image
http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/pw1100g-gtf/
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:10 am

jayunited wrote:
par13del wrote:
So until the 737-10, what were 737 operators ordering when they needed something larger than the NG, unless you do not count AA and DL as operators of 737's because they also operate the A320? Boeing actually had to force DL to take additional 737-900ER's, so.....not as sterile as you think.


How does a manufacturer force an airline to order a specific type of aircraft? Does Boeing have some type of leverage over Delta, are they blackmailing Delta? Perhaps this is why DL ordered the A321 because they were forced into buying 739ERs.
If your statement were true wouldn't Boeing have also forced DL and later on UA to order the 748i to extend the life of the passenger jet?
Wouldn't Airbus force the worlds largest international airlines to order their A380?


I provided an explanation here
Newbiepilot wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
VV wrote:

So DL has already 737 prior to ordering the 737-900ER. Is that what you said?

By the way, how do you "force" an airline to order 737-900ER?

Is there a scope for DL to order 737-19 when they will need more capacity or will they order NMA?


Technically, Boeing exercised a "put option" for 10 737-900ERs that DL did not "voluntarily" order. IMO, DL agreed, exercising the put option was just how the deal was transacted.

Regardless, DL ordered 737-900ERs in MULTIPLE batches so your insinuation that DL didn't want more of the aircraft is misplaced.


Delta and Boeing made a deal that Delta would be willing to help fill the bridge between the 737NG and 737MAX. Delta had negotiated options that Boeing could exercise if they wanted to. High production rate planes like the 737 constantly have airlines swapping around production slots which becomes problematic as the production of the 737NG is shrinking. Delta was willing to take more airplanes at a specific price (likely highly discounted). Boeing had the option to sell the airplanes to Delta if other airlines cancelled orders or weren’t able to take delivery. Delta already had 120 737-900ERs on order. The last 10 was an option contract. If Boeing didn’t exercise the contract, Delta could have purchased more used 737-800s like they have been doing in the last few years.

Delta is a business that is very capital conscious. The pay will buy new planes if the price is right or used airplanes if that is a better value proposition. Delta having an option contract indicates that they do see a place in their fleet for the 737-900ER. They may also order the 737-10 one day. They pretty much operate every western narrowbody built in the last 30years.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bigger fans aren’t always better

I'm sorry, but you're not keeping up with the rules we have established here:
1) When comparing A321 to 737, bigger fan means airplane is better
2) When comparing 777X to A350, bigger fan just adds weight and drag
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Okcflyer
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:46 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..


I have never heard of bending moments during crosswind landings as being a particularly challenging design constraint for a strut. The main strut issues that I know of are proper shear loads, corrosion at the attach fittings and issues with vapor barriers and fire protection.

Bigger fans aren’t always better
Image
http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/pw1100g-gtf/


To be fair, the optimum diameter increases As stage length increases. Make that plot with the NEO’s design optimization stage length of 1500nm, and the size is much closer to 80”. Boeing optimized for 500nm. Airbus 1500nm.
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:52 am

On the orders side Virgin Australia has converted some of their 737-8Max order to 737-10.
Ruscoe
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:14 am

747superliner wrote:
That is pretty cool. It's kind of analagous to how the main gear tilts up on the 773/77W right as the plane lifts off the runway to allow for greater ground clearance and avoid a tailstrike.

slight clarification: only the 77W has the semi-levered gear, the 773 does not.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:16 am

seabosdca wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much field performance improves with the new gear, and specifically whether it's enough that a MAX 9 with the MAX 10 gear could get significantly closer to the field performance of the MAX 8. A MAX 9 that could get into shorter fields would probably be a more interesting upgrade than the MAX 8 for a number of existing 737-800 operators.


Most probably the first thing we want to know is how much takeoff performance improvement is possible for MAX 9 using MAX 10 landing gear. Then one must compare the benefit versus the weight penalty.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:21 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

Probably all kinds of changed loads would have created additional complications, weight & development time/costs.

E.g. higher bending moments during crosswind landings..


I have never heard of bending moments during crosswind landings as being a particularly challenging design constraint for a strut. The main strut issues that I know of are proper shear loads, corrosion at the attach fittings and issues with vapor barriers and fire protection.

Bigger fans aren’t always better
Image
http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/pw1100g-gtf/


On the Boeing 2012 picture you use, the fan diameter was the perfect 68.3 inch. Then they put out an effort to squeezed out the ideal 68.9 inch fan. You probably agree to both.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 737-10, updates, orders, developments.

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:28 am

Samrnpage wrote:
I am looking forward to how Boeing plays the -10MAX. Is the design finalised yet?


MAX 10 reached firm configuration in February 2018. According to a press article the first flight is planned toward the end of 2019.

It is not clear whether MAX 10 landing gear will be offered as option on MAX 9 after MAX 10's certification.

I guess they need to understand what the benefit is.
Last edited by VV on Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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