jagraham
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Re: American A333s

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:12 pm

The original AA plans (about BK exit time) assumed purchases of large numbers of new planes. Which was necessary in part due to old AA and US narrowbodies, and not many widebodies. But they were also betting on high fuel prices and low interest rates. Interest rates have remained low, so AA is profitable and has not had to park planes, but fuel is not all (under $90 / bbl) that high, so the penalty of flying older planes is not so high. AA still has a lot of integration issues, and ceded a lot of international flying in BK. Having over 300 new planes is still a risk of sorts, but so far so good. Now to see what happens as AA finally becomes a truly single airline . .
 
Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:43 am

Eliminating a fleet type saves money on training, maintenance checks and spare parts inventory.

Why lease old planes that would require more maintenance than to buy new planes which that type us already in the fleet and will have a maintenance holiday?
 
Gsasala
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:54 am

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
Are there any A330's, 787's or even newer 767's available for lease to help expedite the departure of the old 767's? As much as I loved flying AA's 767s on milelage-runs and trips, they just need to be retired sooner than the current retirement date. The sorry condition of those planes is a poor image for AA.

I love the 767 but when I flew on one on an American airlines flight from Orlando to Miami that plane was really showing it's age
 
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seabosdca
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:18 am

I would be shocked if AA did not at some point make another 787 order featuring 787-10s. Those frames would be the best choice to replace both the 333s and that portion of the 772 fleet that is occupied flying TATL.

But for now it's clear that the 767s and the long-distance 772 flights are up first. And that makes sense, given the condition of the 763 fleet and the fuel consumption of the 772 on the longest flights.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:40 am

seabosdca wrote:
I would be shocked if AA did not at some point make another 787 order featuring 787-10s. Those frames would be the best choice to replace both the 333s and that portion of the 772 fleet that is occupied flying TATL.

But for now it's clear that the 767s and the long-distance 772 flights are up first. And that makes sense, given the condition of the 763 fleet and the fuel consumption of the 772 on the longest flights.


I actually wonder if they're going to skip the 787-10 completely, 2 things here, the TATL market is becoming heavily fragmented with LCC carriers entering the market in a big way with a lot of PtP routes which is leading to a surplus of capacity at optimal yields. To me means more overall routes are required across the pond to maintain market share, generally this would likely be smaller aircraft. With the coming MOM from Boeing & the A321LR (probably another Airbus MOM model as well in the late 2020s), I would think they might try and hold off on a long term 330 family/772 replacement as long as possible to see what the new models will provide. Granted, the A333s will probably be retired in the early 2020s with the 789 order made earlier this year, the 332s would likely live on in this scenario to the later half of the decade. (baring a major economic change in the US)
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aemoreira1981
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:42 am

gatibosgru wrote:
I thought the 200s were on their way out, but I may be wrong. The 300s make more sense to me in AAs fleet.


The -200s are 238t frames and have RR Trent engines. The -300s are P&W (an odd-ball) and 233t. As others have said---they'll hold the fort until the 788s and 789s are all in (which likely replaces all the 767s, 77Es, and A333s). That said, some of the 789s should be converted to 78Js for TATL usage while maintaining first class with a lighter frame, while concentrating the 18 B77Ws at DFW.
 
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:51 am

mjoelnir wrote:
When A330neo are starting to come into the market, the price for the current used A330ceo will lower. AA could add used A330 to expedite the removal of 767 out of the fleet. They could also replace the old P&W A330-300 with newer GE or RR A330-300. I look at the 24 A330 at AA as one fleet, as long as the PW engines are not to much trouble, you will always find some MRO to service them.

How does adding more 330s with GE engines simplify the fleet at all?


Its pretty clear some of y'all don't get what American is "trying to do"

Parker is a 1999 CEO, he wants a simple as fleet as possible, 32S, 737, 777, 787 and in the IMO short term 332.
Debt be dammed because the good times are going to last forever.
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:

AA hasn’t replaced any 77Es yet. Sure you can lease cheap A330s but why? They just ordered more 787s to eventually replace the 767s and A333s. Yes they could maybe replace them faster with leased A330s, but you guys don’t seem to get that AA wants to cut (future) capacity some. They don’t want ~25 used A330s to replace the 767s and older A333s plus the 47 787s they just ordered. That is too much expansion.


because they are cheap, USA airlines have been driving down CAPEX.


No. United has been doing this. Delta has been doing this. They have also been working on reducing debt.

American is somewhat(I'm being nice) doing this with narrow bodies because they have too many on order without just starting to get down right stupid with fleet replacement. The ~40 738s they are parking is insane but they are making maintenance excuses. Adding more sub-types doesn't do anything for the ole "maintenance" holiday. Finding Trent powered 333s worth while isn't possible right now.

On top of all of this, the used aircraft king according to anet (Delta) has said multiple times that used widebodies don't have nearly the same cost advantage because overhaul costs for the airframe, engines, reconfiguration costs and bringing them up and into the airlines maintenance program is basically a wash when buying a new widebody. Plus you have to find new(ish) Trent 333s which aren't out there. Most of the birds out there right now are either high weight low range birds like what AA has now or ex-reginonal airplanes from Asia that are generally beat to shit and have high cycles. (and thus higher MX costs)


IMO the only US airline that is going to buying used 330s (or 777s, or 767s, or 747s, or MD11s) is Delta.......and they will go right to DMS for part out to support Delta and its MRO customers fleets. (like all the other used 777s, 767s, M11s and 747s Delta has bought as of late)

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also replacing 767s with used A333s is a huge step up in capacity. Hence the 22 incoming 788s


A 787-8 is also quite a step up in capacity.

maybe I am misunderstanding but you can't possible be comparing ~20 seats of the 788 to the ~80 seats of the 333 over the 763?


mjoelnir wrote:
AA has still 29 787 on order. To replace all A330, 24, all 767, 24 and all 777-200ER, 47, they need 95 frames, an huge investment if all are replaced by new 787 and they have still to order 66 frames.

Quick look at wiki (so maybe off a frame or two) says AA has more like 50 787s on order.
24 767s will need to be replaced ~5,000 seats
9 333s will need to be replaced ~2,600 seats
_________________________________________________
so ~7,600 seats total

That will be done by
22 788s ~ 5,100 seats
28 789s ~ 7,900 seats.
_______________________________________________
13,000 total

13,000-7,600 = 5,400 seats left over which is right at ~20 of the 47 77E frames.

A top off 787 order (or maybe a XWB order) for the bulk of the 77E fleet (and my bet the 332 fleet) will be needed at some point in the next ~3-5 years but for now American has plenty of planes to replace what they have said they will replace, the 767, the 333 and older(not all) 77Es.
And they have deliveries stretched out to 2026 IIRC so they clearly aren't in a hurry to park the 777s.
seabosdca wrote:
I would be shocked if AA did not at some point make another 787 order featuring 787-10s. Those frames would be the best choice to replace both the 333s and that portion of the 772 fleet that is occupied flying TATL.

But for now it's clear that the 767s and the long-distance 772 flights are up first. And that makes sense, given the condition of the 763 fleet and the fuel consumption of the 772 on the longest flights.

I think American might have a limited 787-10 fleet but they don't operate like Delta and United(kind of)
American lets BA/IB do a lot of the LHR/MAD people hauling. A 787-10 looks good for Delta (and the 339) because they do a metric shit ton of AMS/CDG and even FCO flying. So pulling 767s on ATL-AMS and replacing them with 339s isn't a huge deal. United is the same way, they can toss some capacity at FRA, MUC and even LHR.

American on the other hand is thinner to Europe and less focused on JV hubs. So I think AA will have some 787-10s for JFK-LHR, ORD-LHR, MIA-LHR etc but they certainly aren't doing something like CLT-FRA with something that big, at least right now. 15 years from now the world might be different.
 
Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:09 am

Also US did look at an ME3’s A333s and decided against acquiring them.
 
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:19 am

With A332s they could launch PHX-HKG flights as HKA does HKG-YVR with A332s. I jest to be sure.

But I would think that A332s have more operational flexibility than A333s. But I'm only an amateur fleet planner.
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Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:23 pm

They won’t be launching PHX-HKG.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:04 pm

It seems, painting with a broad brush, that AA & UA are moving more toward a Airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody fleet while DL is going almost all Airbus.
 
musman9853
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:43 pm

Gsasala wrote:
Byrdluvs747 wrote:
Are there any A330's, 787's or even newer 767's available for lease to help expedite the departure of the old 767's? As much as I loved flying AA's 767s on milelage-runs and trips, they just need to be retired sooner than the current retirement date. The sorry condition of those planes is a poor image for AA.

I love the 767 but when I flew on one on an American airlines flight from Orlando to Miami that plane was really showing it's age



yeah the 75s and the 76s are so old.
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Tan Flyr
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:32 pm

with all the 737 Max on order..I would not say that AA is moving to an all Airbus NB fleet at all. probably at some point about 50/50
 
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Flying Belgian
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:01 pm

What's the MTOW for the US A333s ? I assume 215 tons ?

Thanks,
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mjoelnir
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:28 pm

Flying Belgian wrote:
What's the MTOW for the US A333s ? I assume 215 tons ?

Thanks,


The EIS of the 230t version of the A330-300 was 1999 after the A330-200 was introduced with 230 t in 1998, no 212t version off that bird.

The oldest A330-300 at American Airlines is from March 2000, the newest is from March 2001. I assume all the A330-300 to be the 230 t version.
 
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American 767
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The oldest A330-300 at American Airlines is from March 2000, the newest is from March 2001. I assume all the A330-300 to be the 230 t version.


Yes. I remember when those were wearing the dark blue scheme with the white American flag and US Airways titles. the first scheme applied in the late 90s when US Air changed its name to US Airways. I don't think any of the 332s were ever painted in that scheme.

Flying Belgian, I believe that there is a HGW version of the A330 weighing 240 tons.
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Eirules
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:09 pm

What routes do they fly the 333 on? I’ve flown from DUB - PHL/, CLT & ORD but I’m pretty sure they were all 332s. Comfortable aircraft but the J cabins were starting to show a bit of wear so if they’re keeping them around they’ll need a bit of TLC
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PHLspecial
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:22 pm

Eirules wrote:
What routes do they fly the 333 on? I’ve flown from DUB - PHL/, CLT & ORD but I’m pretty sure they were all 332s. Comfortable aircraft but the J cabins were starting to show a bit of wear so if they’re keeping them around they’ll need a bit of TLC


From PHL 2 Daily flights to LHR, seasonal one to ATH, another to FCO, finally VCE
From CLT I think 2 Daily to LHR, seasonal one FCO and mix between MAD/BCN
 
JetBlueCLT
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:33 pm

Eirules wrote:
What routes do they fly the 333 on? I’ve flown from DUB - PHL/, CLT & ORD but I’m pretty sure they were all 332s. Comfortable aircraft but the J cabins were starting to show a bit of wear so if they’re keeping them around they’ll need a bit of TLC


From CLT, 2 year round A333 to LHR. Seasonal FCO

MAD/BCN/DUB have seen the the -300 this summer. Those were just substitutions though. DUB MAD BCN CDG FRA are all scheduled on the -200.
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usairways85
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:00 pm

PHL-LHR(2), ATH, VCE, FCO, MUC (September...last one)

With the 333 leaving in a few years and PHL becoming a 788 base, I see PHL-ATH/VCE going 788 and PHL-FCO/LHR going 772.
 
gilesdavies
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:07 pm

Just seen this trip review with extensive photos, which was done last month, and the A330-300's are still looking in good shape and well looked after...

The original US Airways seats have long been removed and fitted with a more slimline seat.

http://londonspotter.co.uk/flight-repor ... ladelphia/
 
Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:31 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
It seems, painting with a broad brush, that AA & UA are moving more toward a Airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody fleet while DL is going almost all Airbus.

Um no AA has 304 738s and 14 73Ms in the fleet and 392 A320 family in the fleet currently with more 73Ms and A321s on order
 
Swadian
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:33 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
par13del wrote:
Or they become a candidate for the MOM or the 787-10???? I assume they can switch models without much penalty if any...


I was thinking this too. The 787-10 would be great for high capacity hops across the pond or down to South America. Even if they didn't order that, it's safe to assume AA will order the "797" to at least replace the 757 on TATL and HI flights. With some route reshuffling of existing wide-bodies, plus the ones that are on order, the MoM could be the last long haul metal AA needs for a while. :twocents:


The 78X is not good for high-capacity hops to LATAM because it has less cargo weight payload than the 789. Its OEW is higher than 789 but its MTOW is the same and flights to LATAM are heavy on cargo (hence why DL was sending 77L to LIM), so the 789 is actually better than 78X to LATAM.

IAmGaroott wrote:
Polot wrote:
alan3 wrote:

Is that true, that the 789 is really the A333 replacement? The A333 is just about the shortest-range widebody out there, while the 789 is doing Australia-UK nonstop. I wouldn't have thought they were natural compatible, or that the 789 is what is sought for PHL and CLT TATL.

You are looking too much at max capability. The 787 is not a dog on shorter routes and perfectly competitive with the A330.


Since the 787-9 is replacing AA's 777-200ERs, would that cause a future order of more 787-9s to replace the A333 fleet?


No, the 789 is replacing A333 first. Once the A333 are gone, AA will work on slowly replacing the 77E. This is mostly because of the PW vs RR engines.

Flighty wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
So there is nothing untenable about the operating model. The A333 are not so old that they are a dispatch problem, nor are they fuel guzzlers. They plug along doing their job. On economies... If anything, retiring A333 harms the overall A330 economy of scale (crew scheduling). This is more similar to DL and the 777. Sure, the fleets are a little small, but the carriers have found a rhythm that works fine. If/when they have nothing better to do, AA and DL will replace these smaller fleets with new build widebodies. But I think AA realized hey, wait a minute, there is no reason to rush the retirement of A333.


If they had a rhythm that works fine they wouldn't have announced a plan to retire them.

AA got stuck in a pincer movement - the decline of long-haul yields has them refocusing on domestic ops, and significantly higher profits at Delta and Southwest has them reviewing capital spending.


I appreciate your reply, but why weren't they focusing on high profits before? The reduction in longhaul flying should now make it even easier to retire the A333 and backfill with 788. But those 788 are expensive. And there is no revenue upside on that assignment. Maybe there was an engine negotiation they needed to figure out.


No, the 788 is for replacing 763 and the A333 is no good for replacing 763 on flights to DBV, BUD, etc.. The 789 is for replacing A333.

Polot wrote:
alan3 wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
I think the original plan was to get rid of the 333s quickly because of the small fleet however the plans got reshuffled earlier this year with the expanded 788/789 order, instead of rushing out the 333, they decided to fast track the 763 retirements with 788 replacements and later replace the 333 with 789s.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... a330s/amp/


Is that true, that the 789 is really the A333 replacement? The A333 is just about the shortest-range widebody out there, while the 789 is doing Australia-UK nonstop. I wouldn't have thought they were natural compatible, or that the 789 is what is sought for PHL and CLT TATL.

You are looking too much at max capability. The 787 is not a dog on shorter routes and perfectly competitive with the A330.


Exactly, and there's still the 77E to go around which is a much larger fleet with upgraded premium products. Plus, AA has been doing relatively poorly on TATL, shuffling routes around and expanding to Eastern Europe with 763s instead. I don't think AA would be flying something as big as A333 to BUD or DBV, but the A332 would be fine.

EddieDude wrote:
I had the chance to fly PHL-CDG in 2013 on US, and it was an A333. I was expecting a tired, old aircraft, and instead I thought it looked fairly new and definitely in very good state of repair and conservation. Of course that may have been an exception in an otherwise old subfleet of A333s and, more importantly, five years can make a big difference.

I think that AA is right in simplifying their long-haul fleet. As others have said, the strategy appears to be the retirement of the 763ERs first, and the A333s at a later stage. It will be sad when they leave, for they are excellent trans-Atlantic workhorses. Again, good for AA that they are modernizing their fleet! Too bad they decided not to get A359s or A339s.


Not exactly a transatlantic workhorse when there's only 9 of them and not very good for thin routes to Eastern Europe where AA seems to be targeting to avoid price wars to markets like France or Germany.

HPAEAA wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
I would be shocked if AA did not at some point make another 787 order featuring 787-10s. Those frames would be the best choice to replace both the 333s and that portion of the 772 fleet that is occupied flying TATL.

But for now it's clear that the 767s and the long-distance 772 flights are up first. And that makes sense, given the condition of the 763 fleet and the fuel consumption of the 772 on the longest flights.


I actually wonder if they're going to skip the 787-10 completely, 2 things here, the TATL market is becoming heavily fragmented with LCC carriers entering the market in a big way with a lot of PtP routes which is leading to a surplus of capacity at optimal yields. To me means more overall routes are required across the pond to maintain market share, generally this would likely be smaller aircraft. With the coming MOM from Boeing & the A321LR (probably another Airbus MOM model as well in the late 2020s), I would think they might try and hold off on a long term 330 family/772 replacement as long as possible to see what the new models will provide. Granted, the A333s will probably be retired in the early 2020s with the 789 order made earlier this year, the 332s would likely live on in this scenario to the later half of the decade. (baring a major economic change in the US)


I agree. AA has been fragmenting the market with routes to Eastern Europe using the 763 and those routes are perfect for the A332 while 77E could live on for another decade on Hawaii and LATAM routes as they have a good product and decent economics considering the 10-abreast Economy. They can also carry more cargo to LATAM than the 78X. The 77E may be the heavy equivalent of the MD-80, which will be in service for 36 years by retirement. That means AA's 77E could last to the 2030s.

Boof02671 wrote:
Also US did look at an ME3’s A333s and decided against acquiring them.


If AA is determined to simplify its fleet (which makes sense considering how many fleet types they had at the onset of the merger), they would acquire RR-powered A332s, not A333s.

Boof02671 wrote:
They won’t be launching PHX-HKG.


If PHX gets anything to Asia it'll be a 788 on AA or JL.

gilesdavies wrote:
Just seen this trip review with extensive photos, which was done last month, and the A330-300's are still looking in good shape and well looked after...

The original US Airways seats have long been removed and fitted with a more slimline seat.

http://londonspotter.co.uk/flight-repor ... ladelphia/


You're mistaken. Those are the same US seats but just with new covers slapped on. They did the same to A332 and 763.
John Wang, Founder and President of Inland Streamliner.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:51 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
It seems, painting with a broad brush, that AA & UA are moving more toward a Airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody fleet while DL is going almost all Airbus.

Um no AA has 304 738s and 14 73Ms in the fleet and 392 A320 family in the fleet currently with more 73Ms and A321s on order


The 738's are legacy (Carty/Arpey/Horton) era purchases. I think we're going to see more airbus orders on the NB side going forward.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:49 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
It seems, painting with a broad brush, that AA & UA are moving more toward a Airbus narrow body and Boeing widebody fleet while DL is going almost all Airbus.

Um no AA has 304 738s and 14 73Ms in the fleet and 392 A320 family in the fleet currently with more 73Ms and A321s on order


The 738's are legacy (Carty/Arpey/Horton) era purchases. I think we're going to see more airbus orders on the NB side going forward.


AA still has 86 737s on order with Boeing & United has 129 still on the backlog, personally I don't see either moving in a direction to favor a manufacturer at the narrow body level whoever originally made the purchase, Parker & Co have had ample time to adjust those orders with the manufactures as they see fit for the future of the airline (A350 Cancellation being an example).

The reality is that AA has an issue with debt & margin compression that will remain for the foreseeable future given all of the new aircraft , I don't think you're going to see much in the way of additional aircraft orders for the next 5 years until they can either adjust their cost structure or figure out how to increase revenues to be inline or better than the results DL & UA have been posting.

If you look at their current strategy, they're currently looking for used A319s since mainline narrow body capacity is forecasted to be 76% high capacity narrow body (Greater than 160 seats) by 2020 vs in 2014 when the high capacity narrow body made up only 24% of the narrow body fleet. This is leaving them with a massive gap between the large RJs & Mainline which the 319 fills quite nicely. Given the debt issues, they're looking to the secondary market first to try and save a few bucks to help balance this out & not further erode their margins.

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Boeing Orders & Deliveries: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries
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jagraham
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Re: American A333s

Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:15 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
When A330neo are starting to come into the market, the price for the current used A330ceo will lower. AA could add used A330 to expedite the removal of 767 out of the fleet. They could also replace the old P&W A330-300 with newer GE or RR A330-300. I look at the 24 A330 at AA as one fleet, as long as the PW engines are not to much trouble, you will always find some MRO to service them.

How does adding more 330s with GE engines simplify the fleet at all?


Its pretty clear some of y'all don't get what American is "trying to do"

Parker is a 1999 CEO, he wants a simple as fleet as possible, 32S, 737, 777, 787 and in the IMO short term 332.
Debt be dammed because the good times are going to last forever.
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:

AA hasn’t replaced any 77Es yet. Sure you can lease cheap A330s but why? They just ordered more 787s to eventually replace the 767s and A333s. Yes they could maybe replace them faster with leased A330s, but you guys don’t seem to get that AA wants to cut (future) capacity some. They don’t want ~25 used A330s to replace the 767s and older A333s plus the 47 787s they just ordered. That is too much expansion.


because they are cheap, USA airlines have been driving down CAPEX.


No. United has been doing this. Delta has been doing this. They have also been working on reducing debt.

American is somewhat(I'm being nice) doing this with narrow bodies because they have too many on order without just starting to get down right stupid with fleet replacement. The ~40 738s they are parking is insane but they are making maintenance excuses. Adding more sub-types doesn't do anything for the ole "maintenance" holiday. Finding Trent powered 333s worth while isn't possible right now.

On top of all of this, the used aircraft king according to anet (Delta) has said multiple times that used widebodies don't have nearly the same cost advantage because overhaul costs for the airframe, engines, reconfiguration costs and bringing them up and into the airlines maintenance program is basically a wash when buying a new widebody. Plus you have to find new(ish) Trent 333s which aren't out there. Most of the birds out there right now are either high weight low range birds like what AA has now or ex-reginonal airplanes from Asia that are generally beat to shit and have high cycles. (and thus higher MX costs)


IMO the only US airline that is going to buying used 330s (or 777s, or 767s, or 747s, or MD11s) is Delta.......and they will go right to DMS for part out to support Delta and its MRO customers fleets. (like all the other used 777s, 767s, M11s and 747s Delta has bought as of late)

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also replacing 767s with used A333s is a huge step up in capacity. Hence the 22 incoming 788s


A 787-8 is also quite a step up in capacity.

maybe I am misunderstanding but you can't possible be comparing ~20 seats of the 788 to the ~80 seats of the 333 over the 763?


mjoelnir wrote:
AA has still 29 787 on order. To replace all A330, 24, all 767, 24 and all 777-200ER, 47, they need 95 frames, an huge investment if all are replaced by new 787 and they have still to order 66 frames.

Quick look at wiki (so maybe off a frame or two) says AA has more like 50 787s on order.
24 767s will need to be replaced ~5,000 seats
9 333s will need to be replaced ~2,600 seats
_________________________________________________
so ~7,600 seats total

That will be done by
22 788s ~ 5,100 seats
28 789s ~ 7,900 seats.
_______________________________________________
13,000 total

13,000-7,600 = 5,400 seats left over which is right at ~20 of the 47 77E frames.

A top off 787 order (or maybe a XWB order) for the bulk of the 77E fleet (and my bet the 332 fleet) will be needed at some point in the next ~3-5 years but for now American has plenty of planes to replace what they have said they will replace, the 767, the 333 and older(not all) 77Es.
And they have deliveries stretched out to 2026 IIRC so they clearly aren't in a hurry to park the 777s.
seabosdca wrote:
I would be shocked if AA did not at some point make another 787 order featuring 787-10s. Those frames would be the best choice to replace both the 333s and that portion of the 772 fleet that is occupied flying TATL.

But for now it's clear that the 767s and the long-distance 772 flights are up first. And that makes sense, given the condition of the 763 fleet and the fuel consumption of the 772 on the longest flights.

I think American might have a limited 787-10 fleet but they don't operate like Delta and United(kind of)
American lets BA/IB do a lot of the LHR/MAD people hauling. A 787-10 looks good for Delta (and the 339) because they do a metric shit ton of AMS/CDG and even FCO flying. So pulling 767s on ATL-AMS and replacing them with 339s isn't a huge deal. United is the same way, they can toss some capacity at FRA, MUC and even LHR.

American on the other hand is thinner to Europe and less focused on JV hubs. So I think AA will have some 787-10s for JFK-LHR, ORD-LHR, MIA-LHR etc but they certainly aren't doing something like CLT-FRA with something that big, at least right now. 15 years from now the world might be different.



UA just brought some 767s from Hawaiian. Which are most definitely not for spare parts. And AA is taking in used A319s. All the US3 will buy used airplanes for their fleets if the price is right.

As far as intl flying, remember that AA gave up a lot of intl flying in BK. And because of bilaterals and slots, it takes time to get those authorizations back. But AA is obviously looking to grow intl flying. And they will. It just takes time.
 
N649DL
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:53 am

deltal1011man wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I thought the 200s were on their way out, but I may be wrong. The 300s make more sense to me in AAs fleet.

The 300s are/were on the way out. The 200s are basically brand new.

The US 300s are quite old, lower MTOW and have PW4000s, the only Pratt in the American fleet.


They're not THAT old. Many were delivered in 2000-2001.
 
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Flying Belgian
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 am

American 767 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The oldest A330-300 at American Airlines is from March 2000, the newest is from March 2001. I assume all the A330-300 to be the 230 t version.


Yes. I remember when those were wearing the dark blue scheme with the white American flag and US Airways titles. the first scheme applied in the late 90s when US Air changed its name to US Airways. I don't think any of the 332s were ever painted in that scheme.

Flying Belgian, I believe that there is a HGW version of the A330 weighing 240 tons.


Hi Ben, actually, both A332 and A333 have now reached an MTOW of 242t. As a result, the A332 HGW has almost killed the A330-800neo...
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:14 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Um no AA has 304 738s and 14 73Ms in the fleet and 392 A320 family in the fleet currently with more 73Ms and A321s on order


The 738's are legacy (Carty/Arpey/Horton) era purchases. I think we're going to see more airbus orders on the NB side going forward.


AA still has 86 737s on order with Boeing & United has 129 still on the backlog, personally I don't see either moving in a direction to favor a manufacturer at the narrow body level whoever originally made the purchase, Parker & Co have had ample time to adjust those orders with the manufactures as they see fit for the future of the airline (A350 Cancellation being an example).

The reality is that AA has an issue with debt & margin compression that will remain for the foreseeable future given all of the new aircraft , I don't think you're going to see much in the way of additional aircraft orders for the next 5 years until they can either adjust their cost structure or figure out how to increase revenues to be inline or better than the results DL & UA have been posting.

If you look at their current strategy, they're currently looking for used A319s since mainline narrow body capacity is forecasted to be 76% high capacity narrow body (Greater than 160 seats) by 2020 vs in 2014 when the high capacity narrow body made up only 24% of the narrow body fleet. This is leaving them with a massive gap between the large RJs & Mainline which the 319 fills quite nicely. Given the debt issues, they're looking to the secondary market first to try and save a few bucks to help balance this out & not further erode their margins.

AA Presentation with fleet guidance: https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 810e0df1a1
Boeing Orders & Deliveries: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries


Good analysis. Interestingly, that has always been a bit of AA's issue on the narrowbody capacity. Most of it stemming from a strategy of a single narrowbody aircraft. For a long time it was the MD80 then they only bought 738's. That gap created some issues leading to buying F100s before the advent of RJs. It wasn't until they made the big order that had them coming back to Airbus that they finally diversified.
 
USAirALB
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:27 pm

gilesdavies wrote:

The original US Airways seats have long been removed and fitted with a more slimline seat.

http://londonspotter.co.uk/flight-repor ... ladelphia/

Those are actually US Airways seats that were installed when the aircraft was refurbished and received Envoy Suites back in 2012. They have just been reupholstered with AA seat covers.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
ewt340
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:25 pm

777PHX wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
AA is currently planning to retire older B777-200ER.


According to whom, because AA hasn't stated anything of the sort?

American 767 wrote:
But fleet replacement isn't just replacing each airplane on a one to one basis. It also depends on route structure, capacity needed, global economy, and if there is any expansion plan or not. It depends on all of that.


Exactly. I'm not sure why everyone here is assuming AA is going to replace capacity at a 1:1 rate, but that's probably not going to be the case.


Actually, they did:

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
 
ewt340
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:33 pm

Polot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
MKIAZ wrote:

It also probably doesn't hurt that the A333 seats 13 less pax than the 77W. Must have quite a good casm.


Well, they fitted the B773ER with heavy premium though. A333 only have business, economy + and economy normal.

The A333s don’t even have economy +, AA just gave the Y+ designation to the seats that always have more legroom (bulkhead and exit rows).
ewt340 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
They are not buying anymore Airbus widebodies. US ordered the A350 as the 333 replacement, which was cancelled, now the new 787 order will replace first the 763 then the A330


Personally speaking, since they have houng A332, they probably would lease or buy used A333. Especially since knowing A333 fits their routes perfectly and the fact that it got one of the best fuel efficiency on shorter routes compared B787-9. Also, second hand A333ceo would be Hella Cheap to lease or buy. Cockpit commonality with other A320's also help training and transition compared to B737 and B787.

They replace older B777-200ER with B787-9, but they are still keeping some newer one since their B773ER are still brand new. So they would take advantages of commonality. So this would happen to A330s as well.
And since they are going to retire many aircraft MD80's, Embraer, B757, B767. It would mean that they would operate less aircraft type. This mean they wouldn't have to worry about operating too many aircraft type since they would only have B787, B777, B737, A320's, and A330.


AA hasn’t replaced any 77Es yet. Sure you can lease cheap A330s but why? They just ordered more 787s to eventually replace the 767s and A333s. Yes they could maybe replace them faster with leased A330s, but you guys don’t seem to get that AA wants to cut (future) capacity some. They don’t want ~25 used A330s to replace the 767s and older A333s plus the 47 787s they just ordered. That is too much expansion.

Also replacing 767s with used A333s is a huge step up in capacity. Hence the 22 incoming 788s


1. Economy + means Economy with more legroom, not Premium economy.
2. I said AA is PLANNING on replacing B777-200ER. http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
3. I NEVER SAID they would replace B767-300ER with A330-300. So I don't know why you are suggesting that.... All I said is that both A330-300 and B767-300ER have smaller range that would work better on shorter international flights that cover 3000nm to 4000nm.
4. They could lease cheap A330-300 because they are operating A330-200. They could take advantages of the fleet commonality, and there are lots of cheap A330-300 to be leased in upcoming years with A330neo and B787-9 coming to replace older A330-300ceo. This theory could be used for why they are keeping some B777-200ER because they are currently have 20 young B777-300ER in their fleet.

*Hope this clear the confusion.
 
Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:40 pm

Lease costs is only one part of the cost, training, maintenance and parts by eliminating a fleet type it saves money.
 
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Polot
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:34 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Polot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Well, they fitted the B773ER with heavy premium though. A333 only have business, economy + and economy normal.

The A333s don’t even have economy +, AA just gave the Y+ designation to the seats that always have more legroom (bulkhead and exit rows).
ewt340 wrote:

Personally speaking, since they have houng A332, they probably would lease or buy used A333. Especially since knowing A333 fits their routes perfectly and the fact that it got one of the best fuel efficiency on shorter routes compared B787-9. Also, second hand A333ceo would be Hella Cheap to lease or buy. Cockpit commonality with other A320's also help training and transition compared to B737 and B787.

They replace older B777-200ER with B787-9, but they are still keeping some newer one since their B773ER are still brand new. So they would take advantages of commonality. So this would happen to A330s as well.
And since they are going to retire many aircraft MD80's, Embraer, B757, B767. It would mean that they would operate less aircraft type. This mean they wouldn't have to worry about operating too many aircraft type since they would only have B787, B777, B737, A320's, and A330.


AA hasn’t replaced any 77Es yet. Sure you can lease cheap A330s but why? They just ordered more 787s to eventually replace the 767s and A333s. Yes they could maybe replace them faster with leased A330s, but you guys don’t seem to get that AA wants to cut (future) capacity some. They don’t want ~25 used A330s to replace the 767s and older A333s plus the 47 787s they just ordered. That is too much expansion.

Also replacing 767s with used A333s is a huge step up in capacity. Hence the 22 incoming 788s


1. Economy + means Economy with more legroom, not Premium economy.

I know what you meant. Even the A333s don’t have that. What AA did was just take the bulkhead and exit seats (which always have more legroom on basically all carriers worldwide, even in the years prior to when Y+ was a thing) and labeled them as main cabin extra (Y+). The A333 cabin configuration is still exactly as US Airways (who never had a “Y+” product) had it.
 
ewt340
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:14 pm

Polot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Polot wrote:
The A333s don’t even have economy +, AA just gave the Y+ designation to the seats that always have more legroom (bulkhead and exit rows).

AA hasn’t replaced any 77Es yet. Sure you can lease cheap A330s but why? They just ordered more 787s to eventually replace the 767s and A333s. Yes they could maybe replace them faster with leased A330s, but you guys don’t seem to get that AA wants to cut (future) capacity some. They don’t want ~25 used A330s to replace the 767s and older A333s plus the 47 787s they just ordered. That is too much expansion.

Also replacing 767s with used A333s is a huge step up in capacity. Hence the 22 incoming 788s


1. Economy + means Economy with more legroom, not Premium economy.

I know what you meant. Even the A333s don’t have that. What AA did was just take the bulkhead and exit seats (which always have more legroom on basically all carriers worldwide, even in the years prior to when Y+ was a thing) and labeled them as main cabin extra (Y+). The A333 cabin configuration is still exactly as US Airways (who never had a “Y+” product) had it.


I don't understand how it makes any difference. Like it or not, those bulkhead seats are still a different class on it's own, those seat offer the same seat pitch and price range as other aircraft like A330-200 or B787. The passengers still have to pay extra and it's still on seperate class offering.
 
ewt340
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:29 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Lease costs is only one part of the cost, training, maintenance and parts by eliminating a fleet type it saves money.


They are currently operating A330. They are planning on keeping operating A330-200 in the future since it's still pretty young. So it would mean that training, maintenance and parts are already available for them to continue using A330-300. Especially since they also currently operate 392 A319, A320 and A321 combined. With another 108 on order. And pilot training is actually better between A320's and A330's compared to B737NG and B777 or B787. It took the pilot around 7 days to complete transition between A320's to A330's.

Eliminating B757, B767, E190, and MD-80's make sense. Eliminating A330-300 doesn't make sense for now.
Last edited by ewt340 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:

The 738's are legacy (Carty/Arpey/Horton) era purchases. I think we're going to see more airbus orders on the NB side going forward.


AA still has 86 737s on order with Boeing & United has 129 still on the backlog, personally I don't see either moving in a direction to favor a manufacturer at the narrow body level whoever originally made the purchase, Parker & Co have had ample time to adjust those orders with the manufactures as they see fit for the future of the airline (A350 Cancellation being an example).

The reality is that AA has an issue with debt & margin compression that will remain for the foreseeable future given all of the new aircraft , I don't think you're going to see much in the way of additional aircraft orders for the next 5 years until they can either adjust their cost structure or figure out how to increase revenues to be inline or better than the results DL & UA have been posting.

If you look at their current strategy, they're currently looking for used A319s since mainline narrow body capacity is forecasted to be 76% high capacity narrow body (Greater than 160 seats) by 2020 vs in 2014 when the high capacity narrow body made up only 24% of the narrow body fleet. This is leaving them with a massive gap between the large RJs & Mainline which the 319 fills quite nicely. Given the debt issues, they're looking to the secondary market first to try and save a few bucks to help balance this out & not further erode their margins.

AA Presentation with fleet guidance: https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 810e0df1a1
Boeing Orders & Deliveries: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries


Good analysis. Interestingly, that has always been a bit of AA's issue on the narrowbody capacity. Most of it stemming from a strategy of a single narrowbody aircraft. For a long time it was the MD80 then they only bought 738's. That gap created some issues leading to buying F100s before the advent of RJs. It wasn't until they made the big order that had them coming back to Airbus that they finally diversified.


Yeah, the funny thing is they keep shifting the gap up, originally (back in 2010 & before) before bankruptcy there was a massive gap between the 50 seaters & the MD80 (note there was a scope cap for the 76 seat aircraft which limited eagle to 50 or so total frames), now that gap has shifted to the 76 seater to the 738 at what will be 172 seats following the "Oasis" retrofits (note not as bad this time since there is a 319 fleet to fill in at 128 seats.

The funny thing is the gap really is getting created because of the push to densify the daylights out of the 738, back in 2010ish I believe the 738 only had ~148 seats which was a more natural replacement for the MD80 however now that they're on their 2nd densification push and bumping the seat count up to 172 it's really made the 738 more of a domestic 752 replacement for LAA (I believe AA only had 176 seats on most of the domestic 752s).
1.4mm and counting...
 
chonetsao
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:35 pm

I thought there were a rumour last year that A333 won't be retired as scheduled but to put in domestic/Hawaii operations or even Miami to South America (except B777 routes). Can not remember the source, but I know it was from the A.net discussions last year.
 
Boof02671
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:35 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Lease costs is only one part of the cost, training, maintenance and parts by eliminating a fleet type it saves money.


They are currently operating A330. They are planning on keeping operating A330-200 in the future since it's still pretty young. So it would mean that training, maintenance and parts are already available for them to continue using A330-300. Especially since they also currently operate 392 A319, A320 and A321 combined. With another 108 on order. And pilot training is actually better between A320's and A330's compared to B737NG and B777 or B787. It took the pilot around 7 days to complete transition between A320's to A330's.

Eliminating B757, B767, E190, and MD-80's make sense. Eliminating A330-300 doesn't make sense for now.

They are older require more maintenance and are the low gross weight version.

I believe the fleet planners at AA are smarter than you.

They only have nine it’s an oddball Fleet. And have different engines than the 332.

I worked those planes.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:

AA still has 86 737s on order with Boeing & United has 129 still on the backlog, personally I don't see either moving in a direction to favor a manufacturer at the narrow body level whoever originally made the purchase, Parker & Co have had ample time to adjust those orders with the manufactures as they see fit for the future of the airline (A350 Cancellation being an example).

The reality is that AA has an issue with debt & margin compression that will remain for the foreseeable future given all of the new aircraft , I don't think you're going to see much in the way of additional aircraft orders for the next 5 years until they can either adjust their cost structure or figure out how to increase revenues to be inline or better than the results DL & UA have been posting.

If you look at their current strategy, they're currently looking for used A319s since mainline narrow body capacity is forecasted to be 76% high capacity narrow body (Greater than 160 seats) by 2020 vs in 2014 when the high capacity narrow body made up only 24% of the narrow body fleet. This is leaving them with a massive gap between the large RJs & Mainline which the 319 fills quite nicely. Given the debt issues, they're looking to the secondary market first to try and save a few bucks to help balance this out & not further erode their margins.

AA Presentation with fleet guidance: https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 810e0df1a1
Boeing Orders & Deliveries: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries


Good analysis. Interestingly, that has always been a bit of AA's issue on the narrowbody capacity. Most of it stemming from a strategy of a single narrowbody aircraft. For a long time it was the MD80 then they only bought 738's. That gap created some issues leading to buying F100s before the advent of RJs. It wasn't until they made the big order that had them coming back to Airbus that they finally diversified.


Yeah, the funny thing is they keep shifting the gap up, originally (back in 2010 & before) before bankruptcy there was a massive gap between the 50 seaters & the MD80 (note there was a scope cap for the 76 seat aircraft which limited eagle to 50 or so total frames), now that gap has shifted to the 76 seater to the 738 at what will be 172 seats following the "Oasis" retrofits (note not as bad this time since there is a 319 fleet to fill in at 128 seats.

The funny thing is the gap really is getting created because of the push to densify the daylights out of the 738, back in 2010ish I believe the 738 only had ~148 seats which was a more natural replacement for the MD80 however now that they're on their 2nd densification push and bumping the seat count up to 172 it's really made the 738 more of a domestic 752 replacement for LAA (I believe AA only had 176 seats on most of the domestic 752s).


I remember the days of 148. I also recall when oil skyrocketed to $170 a barrel Delta removed seats to get them under 150 and drop a flight attendant creating what I liked to call the Delta dance floor. It is amazing that they've been able to add that many seats.
 
4engines4lnghll
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:42 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:

AA still has 86 737s on order with Boeing & United has 129 still on the backlog, personally I don't see either moving in a direction to favor a manufacturer at the narrow body level whoever originally made the purchase, Parker & Co have had ample time to adjust those orders with the manufactures as they see fit for the future of the airline (A350 Cancellation being an example).

The reality is that AA has an issue with debt & margin compression that will remain for the foreseeable future given all of the new aircraft , I don't think you're going to see much in the way of additional aircraft orders for the next 5 years until they can either adjust their cost structure or figure out how to increase revenues to be inline or better than the results DL & UA have been posting.

If you look at their current strategy, they're currently looking for used A319s since mainline narrow body capacity is forecasted to be 76% high capacity narrow body (Greater than 160 seats) by 2020 vs in 2014 when the high capacity narrow body made up only 24% of the narrow body fleet. This is leaving them with a massive gap between the large RJs & Mainline which the 319 fills quite nicely. Given the debt issues, they're looking to the secondary market first to try and save a few bucks to help balance this out & not further erode their margins.

AA Presentation with fleet guidance: https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 810e0df1a1
Boeing Orders & Deliveries: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries


Good analysis. Interestingly, that has always been a bit of AA's issue on the narrowbody capacity. Most of it stemming from a strategy of a single narrowbody aircraft. For a long time it was the MD80 then they only bought 738's. That gap created some issues leading to buying F100s before the advent of RJs. It wasn't until they made the big order that had them coming back to Airbus that they finally diversified.


Yeah, the funny thing is they keep shifting the gap up, originally (back in 2010 & before) before bankruptcy there was a massive gap between the 50 seaters & the MD80 (note there was a scope cap for the 76 seat aircraft which limited eagle to 50 or so total frames), now that gap has shifted to the 76 seater to the 738 at what will be 172 seats following the "Oasis" retrofits (note not as bad this time since there is a 319 fleet to fill in at 128 seats.

The funny thing is the gap really is getting created because of the push to densify the daylights out of the 738, back in 2010ish I believe the 738 only had ~148 seats which was a more natural replacement for the MD80 however now that they're on their 2nd densification push and bumping the seat count up to 172 it's really made the 738 more of a domestic 752 replacement for LAA (I believe AA only had 176 seats on most of the domestic 752s).


AAs 737s have always held 16F 144Y. Their 757s were 24F and I think 166Y. Their 7M8 can hold 172 16F/156Y unlike the normal 737-800s.
4engines4lnghll
 
HPAEAA
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:16 pm

4engines4lnghll wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:

Good analysis. Interestingly, that has always been a bit of AA's issue on the narrowbody capacity. Most of it stemming from a strategy of a single narrowbody aircraft. For a long time it was the MD80 then they only bought 738's. That gap created some issues leading to buying F100s before the advent of RJs. It wasn't until they made the big order that had them coming back to Airbus that they finally diversified.


Yeah, the funny thing is they keep shifting the gap up, originally (back in 2010 & before) before bankruptcy there was a massive gap between the 50 seaters & the MD80 (note there was a scope cap for the 76 seat aircraft which limited eagle to 50 or so total frames), now that gap has shifted to the 76 seater to the 738 at what will be 172 seats following the "Oasis" retrofits (note not as bad this time since there is a 319 fleet to fill in at 128 seats.

The funny thing is the gap really is getting created because of the push to densify the daylights out of the 738, back in 2010ish I believe the 738 only had ~148 seats which was a more natural replacement for the MD80 however now that they're on their 2nd densification push and bumping the seat count up to 172 it's really made the 738 more of a domestic 752 replacement for LAA (I believe AA only had 176 seats on most of the domestic 752s).


AAs 737s have always held 16F 144Y. Their 757s were 24F and I think 166Y. Their 7M8 can hold 172 16F/156Y unlike the normal 737-800s.

Probably depends on frame of reference, was able to confirm on the 738 front that around 2009/10 PMAA kicked off the first densification program which increased Y to 16F/144Y from 16F/132Y, couldn't find the exact link but here's a press announcement about the new 738 product and it noted that Y was increasing by 12 seats.

04/2009 Announcement: https://www.aa.com/content/images/about ... 7-800s.pdf

There is a new densification project which started this year to retrofit the existing 738 fleet to match the Max fleet with 172 total seats (16F/166Y)

News Coverage:
https://www.mro-network.com/airlines/am ... ofits-fall
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... n-service/

Regarding the 752s, found a link to an old a.net post with the break down, it was in the middle - 20 or 22F & 160 Y in both, so total of 180 or 182, in the middle of what we remember for the Domestic 752s, the intl had 176. I believe the PMUS Domestic 752s had the 190 seat count, 12F/176Y

752 Info: viewtopic.php?t=1357879
1.4mm and counting...
 
LH658
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Re: American A333s

Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:39 pm

I flew A333 on US airways PHL to FCO. Old out dated aircraft, had usb slots, but it didn't even work! Flew AA from PHL to AMS, very old 757 no IFE, personal plugs, and etc.
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:19 am

The issue of keeping the A333 and, instead, getting rid of the 767s could have a lot to do with the level of service that each plane gives for its passengers. Needless to say on this forum, but American Airlines has not exactly kept up with the level of service on the 767's as they have on the A332, 333, etc. Also, like with SW's use of its planes (drive them into the ground), American probably saw the better bet is to get rid of the planes that they are literally driving into the ground. It could also be with crew assignment that with the progression of pilots and such, planes like the 333 are better step ups for crews than what the 767 provided in the pay charts. Considering that American has been scaling down its 767 fleet, it was only a matter of time before there would be a decision to get rid of one member of the fleet entirely. Just so happens the 767 is older, and probably can be parked without too much expense as AA probably owns them outright.
 
ewt340
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:56 am

Boof02671 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Lease costs is only one part of the cost, training, maintenance and parts by eliminating a fleet type it saves money.


They are currently operating A330. They are planning on keeping operating A330-200 in the future since it's still pretty young. So it would mean that training, maintenance and parts are already available for them to continue using A330-300. Especially since they also currently operate 392 A319, A320 and A321 combined. With another 108 on order. And pilot training is actually better between A320's and A330's compared to B737NG and B777 or B787. It took the pilot around 7 days to complete transition between A320's to A330's.

Eliminating B757, B767, E190, and MD-80's make sense. Eliminating A330-300 doesn't make sense for now.

They are older require more maintenance and are the low gross weight version.

I believe the fleet planners at AA are smarter than you.

They only have nine it’s an oddball Fleet. And have different engines than the 332.

I worked those planes.


And leasing A330-300 with Trent 700 engines would be impossible? especially since it's pretty popular on the market.
I also think the fact that fleet planners at AA haven't officially announce that they would retire ALL A330-300 mean that Currently they are not planning on scraping all A330.

The fact that they only have 24 A330's in their fleet means that eliminating 9 of them would mean that operating 15 aircraft from a single aircraft type would mean inefficiency. The only way they could make their money worth is to order more A330, probably used one.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:39 am

Bottom line is the A333s are going, keep your arm chair Fleet planning.

There are no additional 333s ever coming.

That’s reality.

They are quite happy with the 15 332s.
 
ewt340
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Bottom line is the A333s are going, keep your arm chair Fleet planning.

There are no additional 333s ever coming.

That’s reality.

They are quite happy with the 15 332s.


Uhmm, how did you know they are happy with only 15 A330-200? that sounds like an opinion to me. And the last time I check, they are planning on keeping A330s till 2020's.

Also, https://thepointsguy.com/news/aa-767-re ... ins-a330s/
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:50 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Bottom line is the A333s are going, keep your arm chair Fleet planning.

There are no additional 333s ever coming.

That’s reality.

They are quite happy with the 15 332s.


Uhmm, how did you know they are happy with only 15 A330-200? that sounds like an opinion to me. And the last time I check, they are planning on keeping A330s till 2020's.

Also, https://thepointsguy.com/news/aa-767-re ... ins-a330s/

Cause I work for them and they aren’t slated for retirement.

That’s why.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:44 pm

KanaHawaii wrote:
The issue of keeping the A333 and, instead, getting rid of the 767s could have a lot to do with the level of service that each plane gives for its passengers. Needless to say on this forum, but American Airlines has not exactly kept up with the level of service on the 767's as they have on the A332, 333, etc. Also, like with SW's use of its planes (drive them into the ground), American probably saw the better bet is to get rid of the planes that they are literally driving into the ground. It could also be with crew assignment that with the progression of pilots and such, planes like the 333 are better step ups for crews than what the 767 provided in the pay charts. Considering that American has been scaling down its 767 fleet, it was only a matter of time before there would be a decision to get rid of one member of the fleet entirely. Just so happens the 767 is older, and probably can be parked without too much expense as AA probably owns them outright.


I can also see that one factor that might push AA toward retiring the 767 earlier than the A333 is the 767 currently has a good freight conversion resale market at the moment. Several ex-AA 767s are currently flying Amazon boxes around the country.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American A333s

Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:51 pm

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